When straight men see gay male porn

[Mizmoon]

they tend to have freaked-out reactions. I have seen get men get very upset, unable to even look at the screen, and once I heard a man say, "Ugh, they shouldn't make those kinds of movies." The level of uncomfortable-ness is very high. Of course there are a few straight men who don't care, but 99% can't take it.

That is how women often feel when their men look at porn sites or go to strip bars. It feels so icky - it just feels so wrong. It makes their skin crawl. It seems like those images shouldn't have even been made ...

I can't even imagine what kind of responses I'll get to this post, but I wanted to try to explain to the men who thought looking at strippers was not cheating why it feels so wrong to some women. This was the best example I could think of.

[NewJeffCT]

1. I guess I'm in the 1%

I'm a straight male and, many years back, I worked in an adult video store for a few months. They had a TV that cycled various videos throughout the day on the TV, and occasionally when working an all-day shift, they'd have a male-male gay video on.

And, it was just as boring as male-female porn.

[Mizmoon]

28. Sounds like a general porn overload

:)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. "They shouldn't make those kinds of movies" is a bigot fundy statement

For normal straight men, a brief "Eeew" and turning away from the scene is natural.

[lateo]

3. You, of course, are...

speaking for yourself...not all women. My wife happens to like to visit porn sites herself, gay and straight.

[Mizmoon]

5. I specifically said "some women"

and I did it intentionally.

[lateo]

29. Just to be clear...

"That is how women often feel when their men look at porn sites or go to strip bars."


You didn't say that in this statement.

[Mizmoon]

32. You're being nit-picky because you don't like my opinion

:eyes:

[lateo]

37. I don't care about your opinion personally.

It is your's and you are entitled to it. I don't agree with your opinion which is different than me not liking your opinion.

[Mizmoon]

51. If you don't care, why are you arguing with me?

[khashka]

150. A matter of personal taste

Some people like porn, some don't. Some people's porn reflects their actual sexual acts, some does not (ie lesbians who get off on gay male porn).

Given that taste in porn (or distaste for it) is intensely personal just like taste in music, art, food... you can't really make sweeping generalizations. Any woman who thinks her man isn't looking at it is pretty naive. Some men don't, but they are pretty rare. So get over it.

And it's not true that porn is porn is porn. There is a revolution going on in woman-made porn for a female audience. It's still sexually explicit but with a different emphasis. Porn is a happenin' place, or would be if we were only free to experiment and try things.

My advice to anyone and everyone... you don't like porn? Try creating some you do like - pictures, stories, drawings, videos. Just try it. No one else ever has to see it if that's what you want.

Khash.

[Blue-Jay]

4. *yawn*

[Rainbowreflect]

41. I don't understand your reply.

If you find a subject boring why would you waste you time replying?

[Placebo]

77. what?

[trotsky]

6. I think that each partner needs to respect the feelings of the other.

And that, of course, will be different for every individual.

My wife & I have rented porn together, got bored with it pretty soon though. And even though I've never been to a strip club, she's told me it wouldn't bother her if I did. Nor would it bother me if she went to see male strippers.

Regarding porn itself, I believe studies have shown that generally male brains are more sexually stimulated by visual experiences, whereas women get aroused by emotional and physical stimuli.

[Terran]

7. I honestly find this rather hard to believe

This comparison you're making. I don't doubt this is how you may feel about your man looking at porn or strippers, but I just don't see why most women would feel that way, and I don't think they do. I understand having reservations about it; the idea that "I should be enough for him" is completely logical, if not totally understanding of what men are. But to feel some sort of gut-level revulsion at the idea? That's a bit over the top.

[Mizmoon]

9. I think if you google around

you'll find lots of posts in lots of places by women who are upset by their man looking at porn and lots of women who are repulsed by porn in general.

[Terran]

30. Being "upset" is not what you described

You compared it to the way a straight man feels about watching gay porn (which you assume, perhaps incorrectly, is a stomach-churning revulsion in 99% of such men). I can, more or less, understand YOU being "repulsed" by porn, but I cannot understand you feeling that way about your man watching porn, unless you're there with him watching it. I mean, if you're not there, it's an abstract. How can you feel that way about something abstract?

[Mizmoon]

35. Maybe it's abstract to you

But it's not to MANY women.

Porn is mostly abusive toward women and insulting. Men commonly don't see it that way, so I used the example of a kind of porn that MANY but by no means ALL men find abusive and insulting.

[Terran]

42. Well, I have to be honest here.

I can tell by your words that, first of all, you do not understand men at all.

I seem to recall this discussion before, not sure if was you who started it. But am I recalling correctly: you haven't ever actually seen any porn, is that right? What exactly makes you think that porn is "mostly abusive toward women and insulting"? I've seen quite a bit of porn, both straight and gay male, and both are mostly just sex, period; there isn't a lot of stuff there that can really be described as abusive or insulting. I think that it's porn itself, the very concept, that you find abusive and insulting, is that about right?

[Mizmoon]

46. Nope, this is my first porn thread

Yes, I've seen all kinds of porn. You're not dealing with someone who hasn't seen the stuff she's criticizing. And it's not as if I just scowl - of course it's titlating. And in case you're wondering I'm not a prude or "frigid" or anything like that.

As for understanding men ... that's for men to judge. The ones in my life don't seem to think so, or at least they haven't said so.

Last, I could write an essay on why I think it is usually abusive and insulting. The short version is in most of these films, from what I've seen, misogyny rules.

[Terran]

68. Well, we'll have to disagree

I think that if you did understand men, you would understand that porn is only there to satisfy a short-lived physical urge, and has nothing whatsoever to do with misogyny, a long-term mental condition. IMO, you are reading hatred of women into porn because of your personal distaste for it, and not trying to understand why it exists and what its role is. There is a difference between porn the thing itself, which is a huge and extremely diverse body of content, and the porn industry.

I also think that if you understood men (straight men), you wouldn't think that 99% of them are sickened by gay porn, and that your feelings about porn are in no way analogous to the actual distress that some straight men might feel if they were to watch gay porn. You say you're not a prude, but the initial post certainly suggests something to the contrary.

[Mizmoon]

76. Porn has *nothing to do* with misogyny?

I wonder if YOU'VE ever seen porn.

We sure will have to agree to disagree.

[Terran]

82. No, it doesn't

There may be exceptions, of a nasty and unpleasant sort, for men who actually do get off on that sort of thing. But ordinary old f*cking? No, it's not misogyny. You may think that it is because a lot of porn is meant for male consumption and admittedly objectifies women, but objectification is not nearly the same thing as hate. For men, eroticism itself is mostly about objectification; again, if you knew mens' minds, you would understand this. Women see this as a flaw, and perhaps it is, but it's not about hate.

[Mizmoon]

95. Very little porn is "ordinary old fucking"

I'm not afraid of the word fuck either. So who's the prude now?

[Terran]

104. You're generalizing about a huge body of work

er, so to speak. So what are you trying to assert here? That most porn is rape fantasy? While I can't prove it one or the other, and neither can you, I very much doubt that.

Re: fuck. No, I was just trying to be polite. I'm about as potty-mouthed as they come. So, fuck the asterisks.

[mongo]

112. Unless you were specifically seeking out porn that you would find

abusive or insulting, I'm sure that you could have found something that you would have found acceptable - unless the entire idea of people having sex on film is degrading to you.

The largest, most successful compaines are producing some of the most couple friendly porn on the market.

[YankeyMCC]

8. This is how you feel

I don't think you can make claims about 99% of men or claim to speak for more woman than yourself.

And there's a big difference between watching people in sexual acts and looking at a stripper. Male, female, gay or straight.

[Mizmoon]

12. I didn't

and I think stripping is a sexual thing.

[YankeyMCC]

44. You did

"Of course there are a few straight men who don't care, but 99% can't take it."

Stripping is sexual but it is not a sexual act, at least it is very different than two or more people performing sexual acts on each other.

The sexuality of a striptease is between the observer and the stripper. When you watch people having sex you're witnessing sexuality between others. That's a significant difference.

[Mizmoon]

48. I didn't

"it is very different than two or more people performing sexual acts on each other"

There is porn of people mastrubating, correct? One person doing sexual things a sexual show makes, to me anyway.

[Terran]

70. question

Is pornography depicting a woman maturbating, by herself, "abusive and insulting"?

[Mizmoon]

81. I just noticed that you edited your inital post

to change the message I responded to. I dislike that because it changes the conversation we've been having and makes my response seem less valid.

Why did you do that after the fact?

[Terran]

83. Do you mean my post #42?

All I did was add a word I left out, to make grammatical sense. I did it mere seconds after making the post. It didn't change the conversation any. Sorry, I usually note the nature of my edits.

I think that's the only edit I've done here; are you referring to something else?

And are you going to answer my question posed above?

[Mizmoon]

89. ugh, my apologies it was another poster

to answer your question - a woman alone masturbating is the least disturbing porn when talking about the actual images. However, that person was probably financially expoited. Also the person's image will never ever go away. She will have to live with it forever. I think that's abusive.

[Terran]

107. Okay, these are the points made in the Salon letter, correct?

There's the financial argument--that the woman (let's not mention the men) gets paid once while the producer/owner keeps getting paid. And then there's this new (to me) complaint that the woman's image will now be around "forever" and will cause her harm in the future.

You know, I really do understand where you're coming from on your general distaste for porn, because some of it really is sleazy and disgusting and unpleasant. But I find both of the above arguments to be wholly without merit.

1. Financial Exploitation. The specific complaint here is absurd, IMO. Lots and lots of people who produce things get paid once yet cause other people to keep getting paid as a result. This is the way parts of our economy work. If you pay a professional artist to produce several great works of art, he or she gets paid once; but then you can go open a gallery and charge people to come see those works of art for years to come. So is the artist being financially exploited? Musicians with record contracts: the musician records a song, but any number of other entities may buy into that song over time and make money out of it over and over again. A construction worker: he or she gets paid once to help complete an apartment building or a commercial office tower, but the building owner who paid for the labor gets to make money for many years off the rents paid for the apartments or offices. Was the construction worker financially exploited? No.

Now, does a woman working in porn make a living wage and get medical coverage? Mostly not to the first, doubtful on the second. So in that broad sense, women in porn are exploited financially, but so are the men, and so are millions of workers in the same situation. So I hope you are as concerned about those millions living at or near the poverty line as you are about the relatively small number of women who do porn.

2. Image Around "Forever". I really can't have any sympathy for this. Unless a person is mentally ill and lacks responsiblility for their actions, a person who works in porn must know beforehand that their image will be widely distributed. It's probably the most basic issue there is for anyone deciding to get involved in porn. And unless one is a very big star in porn, I think it is very very unlikely that public recognition is going to happen. This is an issue of the individual's own perception (and perhaps guilt?), not one of reality. I don't buy it as a legitmate criticism of either porn itself or of the porn industry.

[mongo]

115. Actually, porn is one of few industries where women make more than men

Your average female performer makes $300-$1000 per scene, whereas the typical male performer makes $100. Porn stars work under contract with a specific company and make far more - some including royalties.

As far as health insur, no. They are contract performers who are paid on a per scene basis. They are responsible for their own health insur, except that many companies pay for their required STD testing (which is every 2 weeks now if I remember the rule change right). But many, many performers are making 10 grand a month working 12-15 days per month.

The really successfull stars, Jenna Jameson, Jill Kelley for example go on to form their own companies and control the content and distribution of their films.

[mongo]

145. Being financially exploited

is standing in front of a cash register at walmart for 8 hours for mini mun wage.

that person was probably financially exploited. Also the person's image will never ever go away. She will have to live with it forever. I think that's abusive.

If anyone is exploited financially in porn, it is male performers. Female performers are well paid for their work, and it can be an ideal job for someone with the right personality.

As far as living with the image, most of the women in porn would not be recognized when walking down the street - not that they should feel SHAME for what they do, or did for a living as you seem to be implying they should.

[YankeyMCC]

91. You did

You said 99% of males "can't take it"

I quoted you, it's there in your OP.

By what authority do you speak for 99% of males or by what data do you support that statement?

And I spoke about sexual relationships. I didn't say stripping was not a sexual act in my last response I clarified that.

I said there is a difference in watching an attractive person and watching people perform sexual acts on each other.

If I watch a male stripper it has no meaning to me since I'm not attracted. If I watch a male masturbate or have sex with another male I don't "freak out" but I don't like it. In the first case the situation is neutral in the second "I don't like it". There's alot more going on in the second case, a whole different level of voyeurism.

It's funny how hung up some people can get over sex so that they equate everything with any degree of sexuality. When in reality sexuality is as diverse as any other human activity and there's a whole range of appropriate reactions but people who so obsessed with it tend to have a single reaction to any sexuality.

[Mizmoon]

94. AND I said "some straight men don't care"

I also relied on anecdotal evidence. Why? You and your buddies ALL have no problem with watching gay porn?

I think at least a few might object.

[YankeyMCC]

96. So in short

You did claim to speak for 99% of men and then denied it twice.

(And then topped it off with an attempted personal attack. How nice.)

[Mizmoon]

98. Nope n/t

[Mizmoon]

99. I re-read my post

I realize it was easily misinterpreted and poorly worded. When I mentioned your friends I meant it as a collection of men in general, I did not mean to imply that you or they are gay.

I must put in the standard "not that anything's wrong with that ..."

[Donkeyboy75]

101. "At least a few."

Pure hyperbole. If what you state in your OP is true (99% can't stand it), then no more than one of his friends would be fine with it (unless he's in a room with 150 dudes watching gay porn).

[northzax]

10. I'll make a deal with you

men will sotp watching porn, when women stop reading romance novels, which are basically softcore porn, and watching soap operas, which are also basically soft core porn. How do you think it makes us feel when women do nothing but read about other people fictional fairytale romances with men we can never be?

by the way, as a straight male? gay porn is, for the most part, a badly shot, poorly scripted and acted movie with low production values. why would I watch any?

[Mizmoon]

23. I'll have to think about that one

Interesting thought.

[northzax]

55. one is emotional, one is physical

both can be harmful to a relationship.

[YankeyMCC]

47. Hey hey!

Who authorized you to make a deal for me to give up porn!

No way! ;)

[northzax]

56. um, i believe, if you read thefine print

that all I offered to give up was gay porn.

[Placebo]

79. ONLY gay porn is "badly shot, poorly scripted & acted, low production?"

:shrug:

[northzax]

113. not at all, but since I get no sexual excitement from it

there is nothing to distract me from the quality of the production.

[Placebo]

117. so MOST porn GAY & STRAIGHT is bad quality...

but if it gets you horny, it's good

gotcha ;)

[northzax]

118. well, that's kinda the whole point, right?

a lot can be forgiven if the film does what it was intended to do.

[tigereye]

80. then the guys need to start dressing up

in those ripped clothes and stand on the decks of ships! :silly:

seriously, but I see your point. Why should female fantasy be given a pass, since it "appears" to be less intense.

[northzax]

114. well, Seinfeld did try to get the poofy shirt

into circulation.

[jonnyblitz]

11. well i am gay and don't wig out when i see porn of other

orientations, but then I don't have all these hangups and issues that i guess so many people have. this must be an american thing. people arent so prissy and hungup about sex in europe.

[Mizmoon]

13. True, but straight men are often socliazed

to be afraid that even thinking another man is good looking is might make them gay. THere was a whole bit on Seinfeld about it.

[jonnyblitz]

22. oh that is very true..

i am more apt to think the person who is making the most noise about being grossed out is a closet case trying to make sure people won't suspect. my first gay sex "encounter" was with a very verbal homophobe sounding guy who then propostioned me later on. :shrug:

[SarahB]

21. Exactly.

It seems illogical that so many American men get really uptight about this.

[EST]

14. Interesting post.

I was fortunate enough to be able to participate in a number of seminars, a couple of decades ago, which explored the subject of relationship and confronted many of the attitudes reactivated by those confrontations.
People certainly have an enormous array of reactions to their own xenophobia.
One of the things that became apparent was that most of the violent reactions arose primarily from the fear of one's own dark visions of one's own proclivities. The enemy within, perhaps.

[Mizmoon]

18. In a feminist class I took we pursued it further

Why are straight men in the miltary so afraid to shower with gay men?

We decided that it was because they didn't want to be oogled and possibly groped the same way they oogled and groped women. They didn't want to be seen or treated as feminine or as a sex object.

Others may see it differently.

[funkybutt]

88. That's a very interesting point

I think it's a more sound theory than the original post though. I'm not sure though, b/c i've never seen gay porn or been around straight guys watching it.

[benny05]

84. I agree with you

I think that's more of the story than gay people engaged in sex is immoral.

I recall my first time at a gay bar. One of my friends came out of the closet, and at my request, he took me to his local gay bar. We didn't stay long--only to have a beer--and for me to see how gay people acted in the bar. My recollection is that it wasn't that much different from heterosexual bars, but then I didn't visit the men's washroom either.

It was clear though I was a bit uncomfortable in the bar when I saw men engaging in some petting (not too heavy). When we left the bar, my friend asked me if I was uncomfortable with it. I acknowledged that feeling. Then he asked "so it's OK for straight people to do this, but not gays?" I replied that I was uncomfortable with anyone engaging in that activity so openly and wished they would go to their cars or get a hotel room.

Today, it's still a little unsettling when I see it, but I would argue that movies should be allowed for gay men and lesbians to at least to kiss and have suggestive sex in movies in order to be equal footing with heterosexuals.

Regarding porn, as long as no one is killed or harmed in any way (such as rape, child/early teenage porn, being killed) then it's up to the individual to participate in and watch it. I think the film "Boogie Nights" did a good job about that world and its issues. My personal objection to porn is that some men learn how to have sex through watching it, and it's not intended to be instructional. On the other hand, romance movies and novels portray a woman's first time as something great. For me, it was not, but that's my experience.

[ET Awful]

15. I must be in the 1%

I'm a straight male who doesn't really find it uncomfortable. I wouldn't seek it out voluntarily, but I don't find it offensive or disgusting.

Hell, Fox News is more objectionable than gay porn. It's harder to avoid, it truly is nauseating, and it truly does tear at the fabric of society :).

[Mizmoon]

16. You're well adjusted I guess

Good for you!

[benny05]

90. Faux News

Less fair and balanced...that's a good one. :rofl:

[sniffa]

17. weLL

i tend to Look at both those reactions as odd.

to each their own, i just prefer the company of peopLe who don't have those reactions.

[Mizmoon]

19. That's cause you run around soliciting kisses

and whatnot like a common strumpet. :)

[sniffa]

25. the other way around

i actuaLLy think your comparison is spot on.

i just think both reactions are wrong. :shrug:

[Mizmoon]

26. My porn revulsion comes from my gut

When I see it I think of this letter from Salon:

March 16, 2005 |

I almost couldn't read your article on pornography, because it hit so close to home that I almost cried.

I used to work in the porn industry, and please, please don't pretend it is a business like any other. It isn't. I want to make it clear: I was never raped, or beaten, or anything like that. I was just desperate for attention. I was so eager to hear someone tell me I was beautiful, I was hot, I was sexy, that I'd do just about anything. I signed away my rights for a compliment. As a teenager, I'd have sex with groups of boys because I wanted reassurance that I was sexually attractive. As an adult, I sold pictures of myself.

I did so in two capacities ... as a webmaster, and as a model on Web sites. I guess I can see how being a webmaster is empowering and all about freedom of speech. Being a model, however, is about being exploited; it's about selling your image for a pittance, and then having men make their money off you for the rest of your life. I sometimes wish, if I'd had to act out in such a self-destructive way, that I'd been a hooker, because at least I wouldn't be one anymore, but now, I'm going to be a porn chick for the rest of my life, and there is nothing, nothing I can do about it.

http://archive.salon.com/books/letters/2005/03/16/porn2/?x

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mizmoon]

39. I'm sure she appreciates you expLoiting her pain

And some people call themselves "LiberaL"

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

71. LOL!!

You're bad. :spank:

Want another one?

[Mizmoon]

78. His response didn't even make sense

why is it funny?

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mizmoon]

92. Mocking is the tool of those with no argument n/t

[sniffa]

93. *snort*

you got me there.

[Terran]

105. I don't think he was trying to argue anything,

he was just making fun of you. And I think Jonathon Swift and the other great satirists would disagree with you.

[Misunderestimator]

34. A very valid point...

There are many, many things wrong with the porn industry, not the least of which is providing a false feeling of financial profit while trapping women into a lifelong (and often degrading) profession.

I do not envy those who felt they had no choice, and I don't judge any of them.

[northzax]

119. you could say the same thing about McDonalds

or the janitorial industry.

[Misunderestimator]

121. Not quite the same thing...

I don't know anyone who feels trapped in the janitorial industry. I also don't see how that is even comparable to working in the porn industry.

[enigmatic]

127. You don't?

I do; hell, I know many, many people trapped in Wal-Mart jobs because of economics. And it's a damn degrading job, too.

[Misunderestimator]

129. True enough... perhaps not quite on the scale of pornography...

since you aren't actually selling your body...but you are certainly selling the soul, whether you know it or not.

[enigmatic]

132. I think the thing is....

That all jobs that require you to be subservient to others is degrading; that's most of the hospitality industry, frankly. I've worked in it since I was 14, and although I'm damn good at what I do, I also have gotten shit on (figuratively, of course) more times than I can remember by customers, bosses, and any other people who need to feel Superior to me because I'm serving them. It's degrading, and it takes a very mentally strong person to put up w/ it day in and day out; that's why there's a high turnover rate, and why we're paid well (for the most part) for what we do.

The person working a dead-end job because that's all they can get are in a very bad way as well; there's no way in hell I'm going to pass judgment on somebody working at Wal-Mart or a factory because of the inherent degradation what they do; it's not right.

And to take it another direction, there are people I've known that do work in these types of jobs who are happy for whatever reason they work there; that's cool w/ me. I'm not going to judge then on that; I'm not in their heads.

People who work in job that are physically dangerous know that if they stay in them they most likely will have their bodies break down eventually because of that job; to me, they are selling their bodies for a job every bit as much as a stripper is. Some love it, some despise it, and others look at it as just a job.

You can sell your soul or your body at just about any job out there and reap the negatives of that; it's not confined to strippers, porn actors and actresses, or any other job you or i might find degrading, that's all I'm trying to say.

[Misunderestimator]

134. I don't disagree with you...

But with pornography comes a whole lot more personal stuff... and more degrading. I don't judge anyone for doing what's necessary to survive. I worry about the industry itself which seduces young women into it, who have no idea of the consequences, emotionally and professionally. Those who dive in with arms wide and eyes open... I say GO FOR IT.

[enigmatic]

138. I'll disagree w/ you on this point

but that's cool; we agree on this more than we disagree:)

[Misunderestimator]

139. True....

Peace, brother. :)

[mongo]

151. Isn't that the religious right's argument against porn?

"True enough... perhaps not quite on the scale of pornography..."
Posted by Misunderestimator

since you aren't actually selling your body...but you are certainly selling the soul, whether you know it or not.

[mongo]

148. So one persons bad experience

is characteristic of a whole industry?

There are plenty of people who have been in the industry for 20 years now. Some are still performers, some are directors, some work in other aspects of the industry. Some of the most succesful female performers have gone on to form their own companies.

[asthmaticeog]

20. I remember a college film society near me

doing a historical erotica film fest, and when they got to an example of gay porn, all the college guys started shouting and walking out. Tough shit, they missed the hilarious 1920s porn cartoons that followed! I wasn't exactly into it myself - it was of late '60s vintage and starred a coupla filthy "Quest for Fire" lookin' hippie dudes - but they weren't reacting to how shitty it was (almost everything in the fest was badly done, duh), they took it as the deepest personal affront to have to sit through *5 minutes* of gay sex. Neither then nor now can I understand why their reaction had to be so visceral.

[Mizmoon]

27. That's interesting

thanks for that story.

[Burma Jones]

24. HBO's show Pornucopia featured straight actors doing Gay Porn

It was pretty interesting to see how some of these guys do the gay porn, cause it pays better, and how one of them brought his SO to the set to provide pointers......

Personally, I like pretty much all types of sex between consenting adults, so the gay porn works for me too - everyone is the same if you close your eyes. I kinda get off on the forbidden aspect...

The wife is not so visually oriented as I, but she doesn't begrudge me my visual stimulation and she knows she's awfully good.....

[Misunderestimator]

33. Well...... I don't mind gay male porn...

and I'm a gay woman... :shrug:

[Taverner]

36. I'm straight and male

And I don't mind it. I don't feel icky, or upset or unable to look at the screen.

[VelmaD]

45. Yeah...but...

you're an unrepentant slut. :P

[SarahB]

49. And all the gay boys have the hots for him.

:D

[VelmaD]

50. They aren't the only ones

:) Hubba x 2.

[Taverner]

58. At least somebody likes me :)

[SarahB]

123. If I didn't like you, would I kick your threads?

You know you're smokin'. :D

[terrya]

38. I would think that if they were secure in their own sexuality...

they wouldn't freak out at all. I mean, come on. Why else would this be so "threatening" to them?

[sundog]

40. i never get freaked out

:shrug:

oh wait... she said straight men :P

[StayOutTheBushes]

53. The word isn't 'threatened' for most straight men it would be

'disgust'.

[terrya]

57. I don't understand why it would be "disgust"

I'm gay...and I don't get "disgusted" at hetero porn. I don't roll my eyes and make gagging noises and start screaming and all of that.

Why should some straight men do the same with gay porn? :shrug:

[sundog]

60. deep rooted fear of losing their patriarchy

[jswordy]

65. I always heard the homophobics were most likely to be homos themselves.

:shrug:

They must keep that feeling tamped down at any cost!

Science tells us that we are all actually born with spheres of sexuality, and that one simply takes hold in the forefront over the other as we mature. Just as physically I am both male and female, as I have both testosterone and estrogen. But testosterone takes precedence, so I am male.

All of us have some homosexual tendencies and all of us have heterosexual tendencies, science says. One usually predominates over the other in most people. Some folks encompass both (just as babies are born every day that are of both genders, and then are surgically "corrected" to the predominant one).

I think the big psychological pressures are applied when either/or is overlayed on the reality of spheres of influence. Suddenly, something that is in reality a a case of one way emerging over the other instead gets transfered to you either are or you are not. The real world doesn't work that way.

To me, there is no question that it is a born-to matter. Just like we all start out as females in the womb, but I was born to being male.

I've raised cattle and goats, and I can tell you it works the same way in animals. There is one big difference. Because animals do not have the either/or societal overlay, they are much more comfortable being bisexual at certain times, and also use bisexual and homosexual acts to determine their ranking order in the herd.

It's only humans who put the either/or social pressure onto the natural reality. We are so divorced from the true nature of how things on the Earth work, it is pathetic. And we make it harder on ourselves as individuals and as humans by being so.

Peace.

[sundog]

67. best quote from "kinsey"

i watched last night...

"most people are more concerned with fitting into the brood than obeying their own nature"

not sure if those were the exact words, but something to that affect

[jswordy]

72. Oh I would agree with that on a zillion levels and not just....

...sexuality. That is why we maintain a myth of individual freedom of choice when in reality we humans are a herd species highly influenced by the actions of others and much more adapted to herd living (tribes). I would postulate that in reality, being "ruggedly individual" makes us MORE pliable and malleable than being tribal would.

Were it not for our herd mentality, trends could never get started. Catch phrases are an excellent sociological phenomenon that shows how herd-oriented we really are -- while denying it every step of the way. In the U.S., for example, we grow more isolated in real terms from each other every year.

Thus we can be more easily controlled than if we were in groups. Take a stick and break it. Easy, right? Now take a BUNDLE of sticks and try to break them. A LOT harder.

The individual is always much weaker than the tribe or group. But we are sold the opposite!

LOL. It is wild.

[Dukkha]

43. I used to work for Adult Check

I made web sites of all kinds including gay porn. To me it was no different than the hetero stuff. It was just work to me. In fact I liked doing gay sites because they tended to be easier, more clip art and resources available.

for the guys who freak out at gay porn, why is the other fine? They're watching lots of men in those too. If all those cocks on the screen don't seem to bother them, then maybe they're not as turned off from gay porn as much as they'd like to admit to.

[jswordy]

52. Lemme tell ya, Larry the Cable Guy has the funniest routine on this.

About his buddy who doesn't like gay porn. So Larry asks him does he like straight porn?

Hell yes, I do!!!

And does he like to watch some lil puny guy?

Hell no! I wanna see a great big hung stud....uh....

LOLOLOL!

[jswordy]

59. Oh, and about woman being exploited...

...it is like everything else. There are some who are, for sure . And then there are some who are not. And some in between.

One case in point for the latter -- and certainly not the only one -- is Jenna Jameson, who started before she was even of legal age. Her earliest videos are actually illegal to own.

She now is one of the largest commercial real estate owners in Los Angeles. The woman invested her money made in porn and is now very, very rich.

Her book deals with all aspects of the biz, good, bad and ugly.

Another fun fact: The women make the big money "acting" and modeling in the industry. The men make a pittance compared to the women. It is one of the few industries where women make multiples of what men do.

But like any other business, those who are easily taken, will be. I can point to salary negotiations across this country daily where an ill-prepared employee gets the short end. In legit Hollywood, minor stars are taken all the time and sign away their rights to stuff that later could have been vastly more lucrative for them.

I am not being pro or con about porn. I am saying that, like everything else in life, involvement in it has multiple possible outcomes. But usually, discussion of the topic is very either/or centered, as it tends to be about most other controversial matters.

Discussing a matter in an either/or framework, however, leaves out a lot of the spectrum of possibilities and impacts.

Peace.

[Mizmoon]

61. I don't think models make more than producers

I think the female models may earn a higher modeling fee than a male model, but the real money is for the person who owns the images. Usually that's a male.

I know salon is a pain cause to read the rest of the letter you have to login or whatever, but it's worth it. She talks about making a one time modeling fee while the photog makes the lifetime of cash off the images.

She also says, "It's true that they use you in other industries, but in other industries the consequences are not as severe."

I think she has a point.

[jswordy]

69. I agree that the producers of the films make the most money, just...

...like in regular Hollywood. That is why Ms. Jameson went into production. There are other female producers, as well, though most producers are male. Just like in legit Hollywood.

I went to college with a guy who was studying film so he could write and direct porn. And he did. Why? Not the sex, not the women, not any of that. "The money."

All I am saying is that there are a wide range of possibilities, as with anything in reality. We are most likely to hear from those who have had bad experiences than from those who have had neutral or good ones -- in ANY matter.

Again, I am not pro or con on the pornographic industry. I neither am in favor of it nor against it. Just discussing it 360 degrees, is all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Good for her, but women objectifying women does not make it

less of an act of objectifying women.

[Madrone]

63. The women make the big money in the industry -

This actually is NOT true. Someone above mentioned the HBO series Pornocopia - it was a great peek inside the business, and I watched (I think) every episode.

They pointed out (and it makes a lot of sense when you think about it) that MEN are the ones that make the HUGE money in porn. Women can lay back and breathe hard for anyone - but it takes a VERY special man that can get an erection, maintain it, and work it with a gaggle of people watching. Men get paid a LOT more to do movies than women - and this is why.

[Mizmoon]

64. See the important info my dislike of porn

causes me to miss? :)

[jswordy]

66. You must be right...it was on HBO!!! n/t

[Madrone]

73. ...

:eyes:

If you THINK about it makes perfect sense. They were interviewing porn stars, including your friend Jenna Jamison for the straight dope - these statements came straight from the industry ITSELF - not "HBO". No need to be an ass.

[jswordy]

74. I'm not being an ass, I am saying that every single thing in life...

...has a 360-degree perspective. Everything.

[Madrone]

75. Okay.

Fair enough.

I'm not involved in the porn idustry, so I don't really know - but since the statement in question came from those in the industry, including porn stars - I figured it had to have some validity. :shrug: I understand there are different angles to everything though.

If you can ever see that show I'd recommend it, whether it replays on HBO or you can find a DVD of it anywhere. It's very interesting and enlightening.

[mongo]

153. Didn't see the HBO thing

But every article I've ever read tells me that women make more per scene than men.

[petronius]

86. Don't you mean Tracy Lords? (n/t)

[mongo]

152. Are you thinking of Tracie Lords?

Who was underage when she made a bunch of her movies. The FBI knew for over a year, and never busted anyone until she was over 18.

I thought that Jenna was stripping when she was 17, but didn't actually get into film until she was 18.

[RandomKoolzip]

87. Huh. I think gay porn is awesome.

I'm straight, and I like straight porn, but for whatever reason, gay male porn makes me laugh. I think some of the titles are hilarious, especially when they remake mainstream movie titles like "A Few Nude Men," or re-work advertising slaogans like "Cuckoo for Cocoa Cocks."

In a way, I find gay porn amusing and subversive; if you can take a serious, corporate product and turn it into a paean to homosexual sodomy, I thinik that's wonderful.

Which is not to say I actually enjoy watching two dudes get it on. Like I said, I'm straight, so it's not really my thing. But there are aspects I do appreciate.

[Beware the Beast Man]

97. I'm not repulsed by gay porn by any stretch, it's just not my preference.

[bamacrat]

100. But lesbian porn is great, right?

Ive heard a puke say that the only way he would support gay marriage was if it were two hot women. I then ran him over with my car. well i wish i could have.

[ecstatic]

102. luckily I don't feel that way, or I'd be in for some problems

MOST men watch porn. I've watched it too. No big deal.

[Mutley]

103. Here's what I think

Some women are okay with their men watching porn, some aren't. Some straight guys can watch gay porn some can't. And even some gay guys can watch straight porn and some can't. My point is that everyone's opinion on this issue will be different and no one's opinion is wrong, it's just how you feel and you can't help it. You find a partner who agrees with your views and all will be well. No one here can (or should) tell you that you are wrong for feeling this way, but you can't tell anyone that they are wrong for disagreeing with you.

[bamacrat]

106. mutley you are absolutely correct.

[jswordy]

108. No HE'S WRONG! LOLOLOLOL! Ah, that felt good! n/t

[Mutley]

109. no! you're wrong!

I am a woman, thank you!

:P

[ScreamingMeemie]

110. Donning flame retardent suit. I would rather MrG went to a strip club than

a regular bar. Why? Because those women are doing a job, and men are not allowed to touch them. Now, go and take a looksee at the local night club...a lot of barely clad women just dying to "hook up" with anyone. The former is way more preferable than the latter. :shrug:

[Ariana Celeste]

116. Good point!

Those women are protected by huge guys that will kick anyone's ass to the curb for daring to touch the women folk!

I have to say, I agree with you! :).

[Madrone]

122. Hey Mrs. Grumpy -

That's the EXACT argument I've been giving for years. I don't understand women that "won't allow" their men to go to a strip club. Granted - a man that made that a regular part of their life would likely not find much in common with me to begin with, but I don't understand women "putting their foot down" about a one time "make bonding" visit, or what have you. :shrug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

126. The less forbidden soon becomes the less enticing. MrG has been

to three strip clubs in our 9 year marriage. Most nights he's home..with me. :hi:

[enigmatic]

111. This is still going on?

Oh man...

I'm a straight guy. I've watched gay porn. I wasn't repulsed by it. It's sex, that's all.

I've looked a porn w/ my wife; we wern't disgusted, we didn't freak out, we didn't immediately try to divorce each other because we "cheated".

It's sex. We're sexual beings. If you want to get yourself off while reading romance novels or watching soaps or watching porn, go for it. If I'm not in the mood and my wife wants to do these thing, I don't care; it's not an issue to me, and although it's apparently an issue to many, why it is completely baffles me. Honest to god, flat-out baffles me.

We are such a bunch of sexually screwed people here here in the US; why? I don't understand it...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

120. wasn't there a study recently demonstrating that straight men were aroused

by gay porn?

I recall seeing it posted in LBN and GD a while back. Don't know why I posted this to you rather than the thread at large, but do you recall that?

[jonnyblitz]

125. the study of a group of men found that the ones exhibiting the

highest degree of homophobia were the most turned on by gay porn. the men who demonstrated very little or no homophobia were turned on the least or not at all.

[enigmatic]

128. That's the one..

I remember that one being posted..

[Withywindle]

130. Ha ha ha!

I knew it! Ain't that always the way.


I'm very lucky. My guy's one of the ones who can admit it turns him on a little bit, he's cool with his slight bisexual curiosities. I got no problem with that at all. 'Cause frankly I'm a woman who loves gay male porn more than the het kind usually...


I gotta admit, the OP's argument doesn't make much sense to me...I mean, nobody really believes that being disgusted and repulsed by any kind of (pleasurable consenting-adult) sex is a healthy, desirable response, do they? How exactly does one kind justify another kind?

[jonnyblitz]

131. it's a cultural thing mostly for public cosumption for some

you know, gasping in disgust in public then running home and watching it with the blinds closed... just my humble opinion.

[enigmatic]

133. You know, that's a great point..

Somebody long ago what I thought was the hottest screen romance I've seen in a movie lately, and I told her it was the romance between Fergus and Jaye Davidson in The Crying Game, and her jaw dropped to the floor. I told her that it the chemistry between them was hotter than most straight couples in films I've seen, certainly hotter than anything Tom Cruise (gotta work in this guy..)has ever has w/ his co-stars. I'm straight, but I loved that movie BECAUSE of that chemistry; it was fantastic.

I know other straight guys would sooner admit having a crush on Liberace, but to me it was the truth; why would I say differently just because I was straight?

[Chovexani]

135. Withy you're a woman after my own heart

I write slashfic, and my boyfriend read one of my stories (gay dark elf porn, woo!), and he actually came out to me as bi afterwards. I'd always suspected (I have very specific "bi-dar" and he pinged it very early on). He'd always been closeted because he grew up in a very small, conservative town in Australia.

Of course now we make jokes that my stories are so juicy they'll turn a man queer. :rofl:

We share the kink, and it's all good. Sex is fun, why not enjoy yourself? :shrug: I don't get the OP either, but hey it's her right to feel that way. I just get angry when people who feel that way expect me to also. Because? No, sorry.

[EST]

147. Yeah, I know, I know (shakes head)

For me, it's certain types of cheese...how in the world some people can even think about eating some of that stuff, especially while having sex just totally baffles me...

[skygazer]

124. My guy must be another of the 1% ers

He doesn't have a problem with gay porn and neither do I, for that matter. Quite honestly, unless a guy is constantly in strip clubs or porn sites, or is spending all his money on them, I don't see any reason to get uptight about it. Looking at strippers is NOT cheating - it's fantasy. At least IMO. I would have to be pretty insecure to feel otherwise.

[DS1]

136. The men you know are insecure

When I see male-on-male porn I don't linger, but it doesn't freak me out. As long as everyone is happy I couldn't give a flying rat's ass about what is going on.

[Robeson]

137. To each, his own.

[RetroLounge]

140. MMmmmmmm, gay male porn...

Don't bother me a bit.

Nor does straight porn bother my wife.

RL

[ronnykmarshall]

144. MMMMM is right!

One of the funniest things happened several years ago.

Picture it. San Francisco Gay Pride weekend 1991. I got a house fulla lesbians visting. There were friends of my roomate Diane and I from our hometown.

I was just chillin' getting ready to go out and find "Mr Right Now" for the evening and the girls wanted to watch some of my porn tapes.

:wtf:

All of them told me "We fucking LOVE gay male porn". I didn't get it. I tossed them a tape and said "I hope this gives you the enjoyment that I gives me.".

I loves m' sisters!

[enigami]

141. Dude

not even the same thing. Just sayin.

[NMMNG]

142. I don't like watching straight porn or gay male porn

But only because I don't like guys, and therefore don't want to see them naked and doing sex stuff. I have no objection to the stuff's existence, nor am I opposed to strip clubs.

I don't watch what some classify as "lesbian porn" either. This would be the overly made up women with stilleto heels, six-inch fingernails and big hair who have sex with one another. To me this is just women having sex with women, most likely to appease men who enjoy that kind of stuff. When it comes to sexual movies I prefer lesbian erotica--movies that have actual plots, and just happen to have some graphic sex scenes in them.

[Skittles]

143. don't care much if a guy checks out the occasional porn

I'd be sickened if he did it every day though

[iconoclastic cat]

146. Some broad generalizations here.

[mongo]

149. As someone who sells both straight and gay porn

I would not say 99% of men get freaked out about it.

I don't have any signage on top of my aisles, so straight men wander into the gay section all the time.

Most of the time if there is a negative reaction to it, it is when there is a group of young bucks (18-20yos) in the store together. I think it is more of a "have to prove to my friends that I'm not a fag" type deal than anything. Most men browsing around may pull one or two movies off that shelf, realize it's not what they are looking for and move on.

I have had one guy who comes in with another guy and his GF all the time and always makes a big deal about the gay section - "if anyone tried to do anything to me, I'd kill them" - I really think he has some closeted tendencies.

I think that most men have some homosexual tendencies, and their particular comfort level with their own sexuality comes with age. I don't have many 18-20yos buying transsexual porn, but it is very popular with the 40+ crowd.

As far as women and porn, I have many couples who shop for movies together. I think in general your comfort level with porn matches your comfort level with sexuality in general.

[Bluebear]

154. That's only when they have to put on an act because they aren't alone

That is why they put on a big show of being "uncomfortable". The proof of the pudding is if their "curious" (cliche term) side wanders to gay porn when not being observed.

[libodem]

155. poor men

a breeze blowing by arouses them..I think any thing with sexual content inspires a reaction. Homo erotic crap, no different ...it's almost automatic. I think it must be uncomfortable to be aroused by anything a person considers...wrong...like two men together. I used to work in adolescent treatment. They used the penile plethesmograph to measure reactivity to pictures. I wonder how accurate those tests can really be. Considering a guy's hard wiring.

[Moderator]

156. Lock

This thread has run it's course.