First they came for the APTs...

[Modem Butterfly]

First, they came for the American Pitbull Terriers, and I said nothing, because I don't own an APT.

Then, they came for the Rottweilers, and I said nothing because I do not own a Rottweiler.

Then, they came for the Great Danes, and I said nothing, because I do not own a Great Dane.

Then, they came for the Chow Chows, and by that time, there was no one left to stand up for my Chow.

Anyone coming for my "dangerous" dog will have a hell of a fight on his hands.

[SmokingJacket]

1. Don't mess with dog people!!

I'm a cat person, but I've learned my lessons. :-)

[Toots]

2. Ridiculous post IMHO

Pit Bulls and Rotenweilers are bred as attack animals because it is in their blood and they are very good at it. First they come for the murderers and then the rapists next it will be the school children. 2=2=17

[kick-ass-bob]

19. You don't think I could make ANY large dog a danger to society?

It has nothing to do with the breed, it has to do with the owner.

The worst bite I ever had was by a Saint Bernard.

[Jersey Devil]

53. St Bernards are not dogs I would have around kids

I saw a lot of dog bite cases in my early days as a lawyer and the worst by far were by St Bernards, several unprovoked attacks on little kids with horrendous bites through muscle and sometimes bone.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. Rotties were bred off of Retrievers. By your logic all labs and Goldens

should be banned as well. It's not the dog...it's the trainer and public perception that creates the fear which causes the behavior in a dog that senses it. It could happen just as easy with a Sheltie.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

70. Not only that, but Rotties were bred to be babysitters!!!

In Germany they watched CHILDREN back in the day! There is no such thing as a bad dog! Only bad owners!! And if anyone thinks that's not true, then they're in denial!
Duckie

[Deja Q]

3. I'm sure your Chow Chow will chow all it needs to.

But they're not pit bulls or rottweilers.

Who's going after the Great Danes? Apart from the dog racing track in Hudson, WI?

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Actually, there's a lot of breed hatred for Chows

People mischaracterize them as a dangerous breed almost as often as the Pitbull, and more often, in my experience, than the Rottie. Chows, like Pits, look mean and get bad press, but unlike Pits and Rotties are much more standoffish with strangers, leading some ignorant types to think that the rumors are true.

[Scout1071]

50. I'm sorry but ignorant types? The pic below features a bite I received

courtesy of a chow/husky mix around March 1st. I've lived with dogs my entire life and I'm not an ignorant person. I received this bite while trying to break up a fight that this dog provoked with my dog. This dog also bit it's owner before it found itself in quarantine for 10 days.



I've also been attacked by 2 rotts. I had my then 10 wk old yellow lab (may he rest in peace, I just lost him at age 11) in my front yard on the leash. I just ran him out to pee when he started barking and tugging on the leash at something behind me. I turned around to find 2 rotts only a few feet behind me.....and they weren't acting friendly. I started to slowly back towards my porch stairs. My pup was acting like any 10 wk old lab and just wanting to get to them to play. Suddenly they lunged at him. I ran up the porch stairs and literally jerked the leash and sent my pup flying up the stairs behind me while I fumbled for the door. Those rotts charged me at the door, snarling, barking and biting. I caught one of them upside the head with the door as I was trying to get it closed. His head was stuck and he was trying to break in the house. I kicked him in the head, he backed up and I was able to slam the door shut. Those fuckers circled my house for the next 30+ mins. It was a sunday and I called 911 because the animal dept is closed on sundays. The police said there was nothing they could do and I'd have to wait and report it in the morning. About 20 mins went by when I heard sirens. I hopped in my car and drove down the block to see an ambulance. An elderly woman was being taken to the hospital with several severe bites because the rotts had attacked her and her poodle. She tried to save her dog because she lived alone and had had that dog for 15 years. Then I heard more sirens. Turns out a 6 yr old boy in the apartment complex next to me had his ear ripped off when he was running from the 2 rotts.

[radwriter0555]

I actually came across a website defending pits that described the best

tools and methods for breaking up fights and attacks between dogs. You know, pit bull owners should always carry a heavy stick from a garden tool! :)

It didn't mention who's responsible for the dead shit-tzus and yorkies in the aftermath, or for the heartbreak of seeing your dog's neck ripped out.

[Modem Butterfly]

61. Actually, that's all-breed advice

Anyone with much experience with dogs will advise you to use something other than your limbs to break up a dog fight, even with small dogs.

But as someone with years of dog experience, you knew that, right?

;)

[Scout1071]

64. Sorry, but I was fresh out of pepper spray and air horns.

What the hell was I supposed to do? I grabbed their legs - which is also recommended - and had the other owner do the same.

I was in a wide open park with nothing else in sight. No hose to spray them with, no spray, no air horns, nothing. What would you have me do? That chow/husky started the fight, but believe me, my dog was about to finish it. I did the only thing I could.

[radwriter0555]

87. "Some dogs behave differently than others when in a fight.

Tips:
Some dogs behave differently than others when in a fight.
Dogs that were bred for fighting, such as pit bulls or rottweilers, may not be easily distracted and require stronger intervention techniques. With male dogs, for example, you may need to grab the testicles to get their attention.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2253_break-dogfight.html "

But no, since I've never broken up a dog fight, and have never been near one while it was happening, I wouldn't have a clue.

But I know how to rush a mangled shi-tzu to the emergency vet's when it's had its neck ripped open by a rottweiler named "Buddy" who lived up on Larrabee Drive. Buddy's owners weren't strong enough to walk the dog, he kept getting away. He knocked down the stroke victim he charged, broke his elbow and just about ate his dog. I had a stack of 19 reports and 32 witnesses testifying how aggressive and intimidating that dog was during the dangerous dog hearing we held. He was removed from the City.

I know how to call the cops and ask them to take a police report; I know how to gently tell these people who've been damaged and had their dogs torn apart to find a really, really good lawyer.

I know how to cry when the laws around us aren't strong enough to prevent people from being stupid enough to own dogs they can't control.

I know the agony of another guy who had another rottweiler, he was down on Huntley, and we'd get calls every day about him being walked off leash and charging people while his muscle bound owner kept insisting he was a gentle dog who would never harm anyone.

He was being 'walked' in a very small dog park, to the horror of every other patron who were legally running their dogs off leash. The dog was aggressive and intimidating. After numerous reports, I sent my sheriff Rich P. up there to 'counsel' the guy, and the dog bit his hand. Rich didn't take him in, but being a rottie owner himself, convinced Larry Z. not to bring his dog there anymore.

3 months later the rottie was dead. Larry had him put down, after the dog ripped the face off his best friend. The best friend had known the dog from a 10 week puppy. He got 150 stitches in his face.

Larry has never gotten another dog.

I know how to take calls from people demanding that the city do something to protect them from dangerous dogs, and only being able to tell people that we were powerless against a loud few who cared more for their own selfish gratification than the good of the community. That goes over real well.

But since I don't have any experience breaking up dog fights, I wouldn't know much about anything I guess.

[Modem Butterfly]

88. Someone who worked in animal control for ten years...

...never broken up a dog fight? You owned two dogs, one of which had to be put down because it was showing signs of agression, yet you've never broken up a dog fight?

How do you expect anyone to believe anything you say? Seriously?

[radwriter0555]

97. Yeah, it's rare when city officials are actually out on the street

patrolling. I oversaw the AC contract for the City, and the work of the county contract AC officers out of the Carson shelter. You can call and speak with officer Moser at 310.523.9566 and ask him the name of the gal who used to run the contract in west hollywood.

Ask him about the possums in the bucket.

Ask him about the larrabee rottie and the hearing.

Ask him about the huntley rottie that finally got put down.

Tell him the little orange kitten got hit by a car and died.

Then tell him why you called, that you're on a chat board discussing pit bulls and dangerous dogs, and how does he feel about it.

You're such a frisky one!

[Scout1071]

99. Daaaaayum.

Just gonna put it all out there!

[Modem Butterfly]

56. Don't break up a dog fight with your bare limbs

Excited dogs are much more likely to bite unintentionally, much like a person in a bar brawl who will strike wildly when pulled out of the fight. Do NOT break up a dog fight with your bare limbs. The fact that the dog bit you and didn't KEEP biting you gives the lie to the idea that you were bitten by a vicious dog. Quite frankly, if a Chow/Husky mix had wanted to maul you, it would have been in a perfect position to do so.

As for the two Rottweilers, again, irresponsible, neglectful and deliberately cruel owners will create vicious dogs. We need to stop the problem at its source.

[Scout1071]

60. Sorry but the Chow mix was nuts. Two other people I know who had

Chows had to put them down because they bit people. Both of them dog lovers. Both of them shocked when their dogs turned. Both of them visciously bit someone. I was sitting next to a man at a party. We were on the couch when the chow/lab mix walked up to us on the couch - "Sammy" - he said hello and put his hand out for the dog to sniff. She sniffed and began to wag her tail. He started petting her, around her ears, then on her neck when WHAM! She bit his upper lip in two. But I'm sure it was his fault for petting a seemingly friendly dog at a friend's house. Again, I was sitting directly next to him on the couch when it happened and he did nothing to provoke it.

Aside from that, when I received that bite, I was trying to pull them apart by using their legs. This chow/husky initiated the fight, bit my dog, myself and it's owner - who seemed like a perfectly nice man and who I did not sue - and yet somehow it's everyone else's fault but the damn dog?

Say what you will, but there are certain breeds that are just prone to attacking humans. I would include cocker spaniels and dalmations on that list. I do not believe they should be in homes with children.

And don't get me wrong. I understand what you are saying about how they are raised, but the bottom line is that the same breeds are primarily involved in the very serious attacks.

[Walt Starr]

4. I'll make you a deal

When Democrats start advocating gun ownership, I'll stop trying to get dangerous breeds of dogs banned from my city.

[Modem Butterfly]

7. I grew up with guns

But the difference is, if I see a problem, I confront it at the source rather than rely on my gun as prosthetic penis to kill an innocent animal that looks at me sideways.

[Walt Starr]

9. So long as the dog sits on her side of the fence

it won't get shot.

The instant it jumps the fence, it's a dead dog.

[Modem Butterfly]

10. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we need gun control

People who don't realize that using their guns should be a last resort, and that having to use your gun is a failure. Your gun doesn't make you Rambo and it sure doesn't make you right. In a case like this, it won't even make you safe.

[Cats Against Frist]

15. Ha! Walt!

I didn't see your post, before I posted mine, below.

:hi:

[B3Nut]

6. Amen to that.

"If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears one destroys." - Chief Dan George

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand-in-hand." - Rush, "Witch Hunt" (from Moving Pictures...great record)

From www.fataldogattacks.com -

" Many communities and cities believe that the solution to prevent severe and fatal dog attacks is to label, restrict or ban certain breeds of dogs as potentially dangerous. If the breed of dog was the primary or sole determining factor in a fatal dog attack, it would necessarily stand to reason that since there are literally millions of Rottweilers, Pit Bulls and German Shepherd Dogs in the United States, there would have to be countless more than an approximate 20 human fatalities per year.

Since only an infinitesimal number of any breed is implicated in a human fatality, it is not only unreasonable to characterize this as a specific breed behavior by which judge an entire population of dogs, it also does little to prevent fatal or severe dog attacks as the real causes and events that contribute to a fatal attack are masked by the issue of breed and not seriously addressed."

Todd and the WI PitCrew

[Coventina]

8. It's amazing to me how many people here blame animals rather than owners

[kedrys]

12. Thank you

I've met Rottweilers who were raised by mellow people. The dogs themselves were laid back as well. My problem is with a certain kind of person who is mean, and gets a certain kind of dog because of their reputation as mean dogs, and then raises them to be a mean dog. You can tell a lot about pet owners from their pets.

[BattyDem]

77. That's true.

I know a very nice couple with two Doberman's and they are the sweetest dogs. I have never been afraid of them. But ... several years ago, I knew someone with a Chihuahua and I swear, this was the meanest, nastiest dog I have ever met in my life! It was a tiny little thing - it looked like a rat on a leash - but I was terrified of it! It belonged to my neighbor and he was a nasty SOB, which explains why the dog was a Cujo clone. :eyes:

[radwriter0555]

11. Keep your dangerous dogs from killing each other, other pets, children,

adults; from roaming in packs terrorising neighborhoods, from fight rings and from infesting our badly underfunded and stretched to the capacity tax financed animal shelters, and I'll shut up.

I believe pitbulls should be banned permanently from the USA, as France has done.

Rotties should be next on the list if they continue to get out of control.

Great Danes aren't dangerous.

Chows are nasty...

[Modem Butterfly]

14. You know, statistically speaking...

...children in foster care are much more likely to grow up to commit violent crimes. So maybe we should ban them permanently from the US, too?

:sarcasm:

[radwriter0555]

22. We can make up all the stories we want about what might happen.

Dogs are dogs. They're not humans, they're considered personal property, and therefore regarded as property, they're regulated by laws differently than humans are. Comparing a child with a dog is moot.

We humans have to assume the care and responsibility of these animals, and apparently, it's not working out too well. A little boy's childhood pitbull who's name he'd even inscribed in cement killed him this weekend in his own living room.

As the protectors of our society it's our duty to decide -- at some point -- whose life is more valuable and whose life should we mandate to protect first and foremost. I can't see placing the well being of unpredictable killer dogs over that of our kids and our neighbors. You may well disagree.

By the same token one might consider it to be okay to leave a loaded pistol laying in the yard for anyone to use. Keeping a pit bull in your home is far more risky since it takes a human to decide what to do with a gun. Dogs don't decide. They act, and when dogs of this nature act, they can kill.

A pit bull is bred to kill and nothing more. It's far more accidental that they live without killing something during their lives.

France is RIGHT to ban pit bulls. France places the needs and protections of the greater good far above the emotional whimsy of the few.

I have owned animals my entire life, and currently have just 2 dogs. I had one dog put down recently because she was displaying too much aggression. She was a danger in my household, to my family, our visitors and our pets, and I didn't want to risk her being put in a home in which she might hurt someone or something else. The effort to keep her from harming or being harmed was just too overwhelming for all concerned.

She had attacked my other dog last year breaking her leg, costing me more than $4,000. I have a home, a family and a life to live. I'm not going to center MY life and the welfare of MY family and my neighbors around harboring a viscious or potentially viscious dog, so I had her put down.

I worked in animal control for more than 10 years for a small local upscale city. I lost track of how many dogs were killed by pits and rotts, and without exception THOSE dogs were the aggressors and killers. I lost track of the hundreds of people bitten and attacked limited to pitbulls and rotties.

I have so many stories about dangerous dogs I've lost track, and I do indeed blame the humans for the actions of their property.

Apparently since humans are incapable of being 100% responsible for their property, then lawmakers must soon take charge and instill proper rules and regulations to place the safety of public good over the sentiment of the minority.

The protection of the greater good is more important to serve than the whims of a few.

[Modem Butterfly]

24. Where did this happen?

No offense, but it's a little difficult to take seriously someone who opens their post with, "We can make up all the stories we want about what might happen,"

Frankly I'm surprised that someone who claims to have worked with animals is so ignorant about them. Or maybe not. Quite frankly, dangerous animals are not born but are rather created through neglect and mistreatment. Treating the fruits of the problem, vicious animals, will do nothing to address the roots of the problem, ignorant, neglectful and deliberately cruel humans.

[radwriter0555]

28. Removing the animals from our society does indeed treat the problem.

The dogs who are now attacking and killing other dogs and humans aren't being taught to do it. They're all in those loving families and safe and secure homes. They weren't badly treated.. they were all given the love and care by good trusting people like you.

Therefore, you are not to blame for their behavior.

BUT you can be to blame for ignoring the problem and thinking 'it will never happen here' because every single day in the USA, you can find an article about a pit bull where it DID happen.

The good of the greater part of society is indeed far more important than the sentiment and hope of a few.

The ignorance only lies with those who think they know everything and haven't experienced this stuff first hand. What's the purpose in placing the value of any dog over the value of our family? That makes no sense.

Protecting a dangerous, harmful and unpredicable species that is of no value to this planet is really just nuts. You all need to choose your battles with more wisdom.

[Modem Butterfly]

29. More bullshit

The dogs who are now attacking and killing other dogs and humans aren't being taught to do it. They're all in those loving families and safe and secure homes. They weren't badly treated.. they were all given the love and care by good trusting people like you.

I call bullshit on this. CDC stats show that most dogs who do bite are dogs that are kept on chains in yards, not dogs that are kept in safe, secure homes. Stats also show that emaciation and torture (yes, torture) are a huge contributing factor in dogbite cases. Someone who doesn't feed their dog and doesn't even provide it adequate shelter is not a responsible dog owner and they aren't loving their dog. Period.

BUT you can be to blame for ignoring the problem and thinking 'it will never happen here' because every single day in the USA, you can find an article about a pit bull where it DID happen.

MORE bullshit. Given the sheer number of Pitbulls in this nation, if the dogs were as vicious as you and other animal-haters imply, we would be facing an epidemic of dog bites. Yet it is precisely the rare nature of these attacks that brings media attention and hype.

Protecting a dangerous, harmful and unpredicable species that is of no value to this planet is really just nuts.

Sounds like a pretty good argument against human beings, actually.

Edited to add: I had a feeling that story was a lie.

[realisticphish]

30. LOL

Protecting a dangerous, harmful and unpredicable species that is of no value to this planet is really just nuts.

Sounds like a pretty good argument against human beings, actually.

:rofl: :spray:

[radwriter0555]

36. Modem, I know you like to be provacative, but a little research would

go a long way before you go assuming and thinking without actual consideration of the fact;

The number of dogs. Approximately 35 percent of American households owned a dog in 1994, and the U.S. dog population exceeded 52 million. (Wise JK, Yang JJ. Dog and cat ownership, 1991-1998. J Am Vet Med Assoc Vet Med Asso 1994;204:1166-7.)
The number of victims. A survey by the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta ("CDC") concludes that dogs bite nearly 2% of the U.S. population -- more than 4.7 million people annually. (Sacks JJ, Kresnow M, Houston B. Dog bites: how big a problem? Injury Prev 1996; 2:52 -4.) Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. Dog bites send nearly 334,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (914 per day). (National Center for Health Statistics National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey for 1992-1994.) Bites to children represent more than 50 percent of the total number cases. Twenty-six percent of dog bites in children compared with 12 percent in adults require medical care. (Ibid.) Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.) An American has a one in 50 chance of being bitten by a dog each year. (Centers for Disease Control .)

The number of fatalities. In the U.S. from 1979 to 1996, 304 people in the U.S. died from dog attacks, including 30 in California. The average number of deaths per year was 17. Most deaths occurred in children. (Centers for Disease Control, "Dog-Bite-Related Fatalities -- United States, 1995-1996," MMWR 46(21):463-467, 1997.) The chances that victim of a fatal dog attack will be a burglar are one in 177; the odds that it will be a child are 7 out of 10. However, fatalities are highly unusual. For every fatal dog bite in the United States , there are 230,000 bites that are not treated by a physician.

The financial impact of dog bites. Dog attack victims in the U.S. suffer over $1 billion in monetary losses every year. ("Take the bite out of man's best friend." State Farm Times, 1998;3(5):2.) One in three homeowner insurance claims pertains to a dog bite. (Ibid.) The average insurance payout is $12,000. (Ibid.)

Dog bites are on the rise: Although the number of dogs in the United States increased by only 2% between 1986 and 1996, the number of dog bite injuries requiring medical treatment rose by 37%. (Weiss HB, Friedman DI, Coben JH. "Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments." JAMA 1998;279:51-53.)

The scene of attack is home or a familiar place. The majority of dog attacks (61%) happen at home or in a familiar place.

Dogs bite family and friends. The vast majority of biting dogs (77%) belong to the victim's family or a friend.

http://www.nafacares.org/Dog%20Stuff/dog_bite_statistics.htm

And then.... this

Winnipeg became the first Canadian city to ban pit bulls in 1990, a year after an attack left a young girl badly disfigured. Since then, incidents involving pit bulls have fallen from about 25 a year to one or two.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/dogs/

and Ontario is considering a ban as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/01/pit-bull-ban050301.html

Ontario passes ban on pit bulls
Last Updated Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:23:54 EST
CBC News
TORONTO - A controversial bill to ban pit bulls passed in the Ontario legislature Tuesday, and now requires only royal assent before becoming law.


INDEPTH: Dangerous dogs


Ontario Attorney General, Michael Bryant.
The legislation prevents people from acquiring a number of breeds of dogs classified as pit bulls, and requires those who already own the dogs to neuter and muzzle their animals.

"Mark my words, Ontario will be safer," Attorney General Michael Bryant, who brought forward the bill, said after it passed.

Similar measures are already in place in Britain, France and Germany. Winnipeg has had such a ban in place for 14 years, and the last pit bull known to be living in the Manitoba capital died in 2004.

Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberals promised the law after a series of high-profile Ontario attacks.


FROM SEPT. 9, 2004: Many unreported pit bull attacks: Ontario minister

The list of those unhappy with the idea of a ban includes not only dog breeders and the provincial NDP, but the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies.

The federation supports the bill's tougher fines for irresponsible dog owners, but opposes its concentration on one breed.

The Ottawa-based federation's program director, Sheila McDonald, said Canada just doesn't have the data it needs to determine that pit bulls are the most troublesome breed of dog.

Banning the breed might give people a false sense of security, she suggested.

"Right at this moment, pit bulls are certainly not the only dog that people perhaps should have some concerns about," McDonald said.

"There are other breeds that have been involved in dog incidents, there are other breeds that were developed for fighting-type instincts, and of course there are all kinds of mixes of breeds ... that could result in a very aggressive dog."


Pit bulls in Ontario must be muzzled under the new law. Rottweilers, for example, have been blamed for at least two fatal attacks on children across Canada in recent years.


FROM DEC. 28, 2004: Dogs attack and kill 3-year-old B.C. boy


FROM NOV. 4, 2003: Dogs that mauled boy were 'gentle,' owner tells inquiry

As well, unneutered male dogs of many breeds tend to be more unpredictable, McDonald said.

" huge thing that is extremely lacking in Canada is a database of dog bite incidents. And that has been recommended at several inquests into fatal dog attacks and has never been followed up on."

The law will come into effect by late summer or early fall. Municipalities will be expected to enforce it.

How wonderful that our socialist friends in Canada and France put the protection of their societies above the whims of the irrational and sentimental few in the populace.

[Marnieworld]

37. By your own stats

52 million dogs
800,000 bites per year < 1/52 of the total dogs not a big # if you ask me.

Then it gets even less significant when it's a third of this 1/52 that needs treatment. And then it's 304 death over an 18 year period? Puh-leeze.

Sounds like dog bites aren't as big a menace lightning strikes.

"In the United States, an average of 73 people are killed each year by lightning. That's more than the annual number of people killed by tornadoes or hurricanes. "-http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/NavigationList/NT0000C06E

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Geez, talk about being hoist on your own pretard...

[RebelOne]

27. There is nothing wrong with Rotties.

I have a Rottie. She is the second one I've owned. They are special dogs and big babies. I've never met a Rottie didn't like.

And Great Danes are dangerous. One chased my son down the street and bite him in the back.

[Cats Against Frist]

13. This is one of those situations where I just don't get it

If you're a libertarian -- okey dokey -- it makes sense. I fucking hate pit bulls and murder dogs and thing that the people who own them are screwy -- BUT, as in guns, I don't think the government should BAN them.

But what of the position, which was brought up on mopaul's thread, of being in favor of the government banning guns, while thinking that everyone should be free to own a slobber-joweled trained killer?

[Modem Butterfly]

16. What's a murder dog?

I don't think anyone should be allowed to create dangerous dogs. But it's just that dangerous dogs have to be created, they are not born. I am in favor of much more regulation for pet owners of all breeds and species. I grew up around guns, I own guns, I have no problem with people owning guns, but I think gun ownership should be restricted, too.

You know, last November, my sweet little Shar-Pei managed to jump our six foot privacy fence. I found him in a cuddle-fest with our nextdoor neighbor, who fortunately, is sane. I shudder to think what would have happened if we'd lived next door to some hysterical nutbag convinced every dog with a certain head-shape is just waiting to maul him.

[MisterP]

47. like a murder hole, you can push things through it onto other people?

[Debbi801]

17. LOL The worst dog bit I've ever gotten was from a Chow. I still love...

them. Some dogs bite, some bite more than others. :shrug: Sometimes, like in my case, it is the bitten person's fault, not the dog's.

Most of the time, I really believe that it is the fault of bad owners (or bad breeders), not the dogs. I've met very docile pit bulls and dobermans. I've also met very viscious shelties.

I for one would never come after your dog (who by the way is very beautiful).

:pals:

Debbi

[crispini]

18. The worst dog bite case I've ever heard about

was a *black lab* and, sadly, it was just one of those fluke things where the dog got out of the yard at the same time as my friend's son was passing by on a skateboard -- and something about the skateboard freaked the dog out. Kid needed dozens of stiches. The owners of the lab were horrified as the dog had never done anything like that before and they had small children. They had the dog put down and paid for the boy's medical care. It was a sad case all around.

I don't know why I'm telling this story except perhaps as an illustration that, well, sometimes dogs bite, no matter what the breed. I have a different old friend who has always had pitbulls, purebread and mixes, and she has never had problems with any of them.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. Considering that "freak out" rather than aggression is often the cause,

I wish more people would grasp dog psychology before they bring home Rover.
Little kids and dogs, not a great combo. Kids on wheeled toys, dog bait.
There are also breeds know to have characteristics that make them inclined to react swiftly and viciously to a perceived threat. The big dogs are just more likely to kill or severely maim when they freak out. Too few owners really take the time to understand what motivates a dog's behavior. "My dog doesn't bite" is not the first thing to think when Spot is growling at a passerby.

In the San Francisco case the dog behaviorists identified several stressors that may have tipped the dogs over the edge. Their Alpha adult had been gone for two weeks, their home was in chaos (the family's belongings were boxed up for a pending move to another state where the father had already relocated), and the bitch was in heat. I don't blame the parents for failing to recognize this unusual confluence of events. It's not as if they chained the beasts in the backyard and ignored them. They just did not recognize how stressed out the animals were, in all likelihood because they were stressed out themselves. It is just a very sad case.

[kick-ass-bob]

20. My worst large dog bite: St. Bernard.

It has nothing to do with the breeds.
Any large dog "could" be dangerous.

[Pharlo]

21. Compare:

HUMAN causes human death rates to DOG causes human death rates
in US (annually)....

And the logical conclusion....
BAN DOGS?????

Well, now we know how Bush got 'elected' --- TWICE


Compare:

HUMAN causes dog death rates to DOG causes dog death rates in US (annually).....

Now, which species is truly more "human"?

Left to their own devices, dogs would only kill for food and defense -Not for sport --- that's a human characteristic.


Dogs are socialized in their first four months. During that time, you can decide what your dog will become - a loving companion, or a killer for sport. It's not the dog, it's the human.


People who don't know how to treat animals, ought not have them - And, people who don't know how to treat children ought not have them either....


(Mutt lover here -- Heinz 57 variety - you know the type - someone says "What is that?" And your response is "Well, fur, four legs, a head with a tongue, and a tail that wags.....It's a dog.")

[Kellanved]

23. Could you please try again without the implicit holocaust comparison?

It is beyond tasteless.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. No one is comparing the ruthless elimniation of dogs by breed...

...to the holocaust.

[Susang]

32. I think you kinda did in your OP

By changing the words of a very famous quote about the Holocaust and making it about canines instead.

Or didn't you realize that the original quote was in reference to the Holocaust?

[Modem Butterfly]

33. Niemoller was talking about remaining silent...

...while things happened to people around you that didn't directly affect you. As such, it's quite well-applied in this situation.

[Susang]

34. If you say so

Having read both the source material and your version, I have to say think you're stretching it.

[Modem Butterfly]

41. Well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it

[jukes]

40. Susang

destroying a group of people based on their genotype ("race" is an arbitrary, subjective tool used to define different "breeds" of our species w/o admitting that we are actually animals) is a VERY BAD THING.

destroying a group of canines based on their genotype is a VERY BAD THING.

i love my cats and dogs as much as any people i know. i WOULD enter a burning building to save any animals trapt w/in. I HAVE, when i was a street cop, entered a burning building to extricate people trapt w/in. since it was an apartment, there just weren't any animals to rescue in that particular building.

i think you're being a bit dramatic by being outraged at the use of the metaphor in the OP; for some, it's merely a matter of degree. for me, i see no difference. dogs feel pain, fear, and the dismay of betrayal also. they just can't articulate it in any manner that most people will choose to understand.

[Susang]

44. LOL

I'm being dramatic? Where did I say that I was outraged over the comparison? I merely stated that I disagreed with the issue being categorized that way.

Sheesh.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Memo to jukes.

Dogs and people are subject to different values. Just sayin'.

Will you be protesting that dogs can't be elected for public office?

[Kellanved]

54. Is that so?

Miss Nemo, whatever your motivations might be for using that poem as basis for your message, you have to understand that I suspect none other than an attempt to create a powerful message.

Your message happens to strike me as being *very* insulting to Holocaust victims and their families, I am sure many other posters share that view.


H

[Modem Butterfly]

62. I'm not sure who Miss Nemo is

Did you mean to address this to me?

[jukes]

35. dogs don't kill people

PEOPLE distort individual dogs to the point that there are consequences.

to ANY narrow-minded, uneducated, sanctimonious dickdrip that wants to destroy ANY breed of dogs on the baseless assumption that some breeds are inherantly dangerous: quit relying on anecdotal "evidence", learn to relate to animals (& it helps to understand that WE ARE ALSO ANIMALS) and find some worthwhile crusade that doesn't arbitrarily kill anything for your personal, perverse satisfaxion.


also, kiss my ass!

[Susang]

72. Don't you think that's a bit "dramatic"

[hfojvt]

38. they have talked in my city of an ordinance

defining a "large" dog and putting certain extra costs and restrictions on them. By their definition my 35 pound beagle is a large dog, as is any other dog over 25 pounds.

He is not very people friendly, but he also never leaves my yard. A big yard where I constantly am seeing kids throwing things at him or swinging sticks at him or kicking my fence. I think there needs to be an ordinance for these roving packs of hoodlums too. Maybe they should be required to have adult supervision if they leave their yards, or their friends' yards.

[Beware the Beast Man]

42. In the deepest of respects,

that is the daftest thing I have ever read, not to mention a tad disrespectful to the subject matter of the original quote.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. You must have missed the dog wars today

[Beware the Beast Man]

71. No, I didn't miss anything.

While I agree that no particular breed of dog should ever be banned, what you posted was demeaning.

[Susang]

74. My point exactly

I agree B-man!

[bettyellen]

45. isn't that quote about the holocaust.

didn't mean to yell.
sorry!

[Magrittes Pipe]

46. Yes.

Apparently, the idea of municipalities not allowing certain breeds of dogs is equivalent to the murder of millions.

[bettyellen]

48. oh, so it is tasteless and insulting hyperbole.

i thought so.

[radwriter0555]

49. and a hoisted pretard as well, apparently.

*cough*

[Modem Butterfly]

59. Glad to see your knowledge of English...

...is as deep as your knowledge of dogs.

;)

[radwriter0555]

83. Pretard is your word, not mine.

It's cute though.

[Modem Butterfly]

58. No it's not

The quote is about good people doing nothing while others are attacked, under the mistaken assumption that it won't affect them.

But you know what? It will.

[Susang]

63. Actually,

I believe it very much is about the holocaust and Niemoller would most likely be horrified at the way you have used it:

http://www.liv-coll.ac.uk/pa09/europetrip/brussels/neimoller.htm
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm#origins

[Modem Butterfly]

66. Did you read your own links?

But interestingly, people use the quotation to imply different meanings – even altering it to suit their purpose. When Time magazine used the quotation, they moved the Jews to the first place and dropped both the communists and the social democrats. American Vice-President Al Gore likes the to quote the lines, but drops the trade unionists for good measure. Gore and Time also added Roman Catholics, who weren't on Niemöller's list at all. In the heavily Catholic city of Boston, Catholics were added to the quotation inscribed on its Holocaust memorial. The US Holocaust Museum drops the Communists but not the Social Democrats; other versions have added homosexuals.

The latter corruption of the text was never seen by Niemoller: he died before homosexual exhibitionism became a public spectacle. But when we asked him years ago about the addition of the Roman Catholics, he said, "I never said it. They can take care of themselves." (Not particularly friendly, perhaps, remembered today in the modern climate of Catholic/ Protestant rapprochement; but the report has the virtue of telling the truth.) When asked about the re-arranged order, "First they came for the Jews...," he simply laughed and passed it off.

[Susang]

68. Did you?

Did you understand it? :shrug:

Seems a little more important than worrying about whether the city council is going to pass an ordinance against your dog, doesn't it?

"Niemöller was a Protestant pastor, one of the pillars of moral resistance to the Nazis, who imprisoned him for four years in solitary confinement.

In 1931 Niemöller became a pastor in Dahlem, a fashionable suburb of Berlin. Two years later, as a protest against interference in church affairs by the National Socialists (Nazi Party), Niemöller founded the Pastors' Emergency League. The group, among its other activities, helped combat rising discrimination against Christians of Jewish background.

Niemöller was influential in building opposition to Adolf Hitler's efforts to bring the German churches under control of the Nazis and in 1937 was arrested by the Gestapo. Eventually sent to Sachsenhausen and then to Dachau concentration camps, he was moved in 1945 to the Tirol, where Allied forces freed him at the end of World War II."

[Modem Butterfly]

75. You miss the point

1) I wasn't quoting Niemoller directly

2) I wasn't talking about the Holocaust

3) According to YOUR link, Niemoller wasn't talking directly about the Holocaust, but about "moral failure in the face of the Holocaust"

4) Niemoller didn't object to having the wording on his quote changed during his lifetime

So now, what was your objection again?

[Susang]

79. You really didn't understand the links at all

Here's a quote from one of them. Maybe this will make you understand that comparing the potential threat to your housepet is not on par with the death of millions in WWII:

There is a more than pedantic point to insisting that the Niemoeller quotation be truthfully used, if at all. Through the texts corrupted to promote special interests, literally millions of school children and also adults are being taught lies about the Holocaust. The damage is not as serious, perhaps, as the steady infiltration of "Holocaust revision" (i.e., denial). But it does help to create an atmosphere of playing fast and loose with the facts through intellectually dishonest and self-serving manipulation of the text.

Niemoeller knew the sequence of Nazi assault, because he was there. Any average student of the third Reich should be able to give the record accurately; it is a shocking display of professional incompetence when materials that are supposed to be vetted by specialists can be issued that are simply contrary to the record. Even if a corrupt text appears in print, whether published by an ignoramus or a special pleasure, the literate reader should catch the mistake.

As Martin Niemoeller gave the message, it was true to the facts. "They" didn't "come for the Catholics" any more than "they" came for the Protestants. The true historical sequence, which Niemoeller of course followed, was communists, socialists, trade unionists, and Jews. The assault on the Jews was the culmination of the Nazi dictatorship's ruthless elimination of targeted communities and individuals.

[Modem Butterfly]

80. You'd have a point if you weren't so very, very wrong

Maybe this will make you understand that comparing the potential threat to your housepet is not on par with the death of millions in WWII

You'd have a point if I'd made that comparison. Since I didn't, that pretty much leaves you nowhere. But thanks for the effort!

[Susang]

81. By using your doctored version of his quote,

That's exactly what you did. Why you feel the intense need to use personal attacks and condescension to try and get your message across is beyond me. Obviously I was not the only person who understood your OP to mean this. No amount of snarky superiority from you will change that. Perhaps I'm not the one who's "so very, very wrong".

[bettyellen]

82. if a corrupt text appears in print, whether published by an ignoramus

or a special pleasure, the literate reader should catch the mistake. ;)

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

84. That's a serious stretch

I didn't use a doctored version of Niemoller's quote, nor did I even use a doctored version of a doctored version of Neimoller's quote. My post has nothing to do with Niemoller or the Holocaust, your inistance to the contrary, other than the barest framework.

If you feel I am using personal attacks, I urge you to hit the alert button. If you feel that I'm being condescending, well, you're probably right. I don't suffer fools gladly and I have difficulty being polite when someone insists they know my meaning and intentions better than I. Did other people misunderstand me? Perhaps. But that doesn't give your wrong-headed assertations any weight.

[Susang]

89. Your post has everything to do with Niemoller

You admitted as much when I asked you if you were aware of the origin of the original quote. You knew the author's name and told me what you believed the quote to be about. Now you are denying the quote has anything to do with him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3397059&mesg_id=3398224&page=

Strange turnabout for a very strange argument.

BTW, thanks for the crack about "fools". In classic literature, the wisest and most truthful commentary always came from the fool. Of course, you knew that, didn't you?

[Modem Butterfly]

90. Saying it doesn't make it so

I used the structure of Niemoller's quote ("They came for X and I said nothing because I was not X"), but that's it. Niemoller didn't talk about dogs, I didn't talk about Communists, and neither of us talked about the Holocaust. If you'd read any one of my last four posts to you, you'll see that I've been perfectly consistant in this. Either you're not reading what I'm writing, or you're ignoring it because it doesn't agree with what you wish I'd written. Either way, it's still wrong.

And for the record, DU isn't classic literature. I would have thought that was patently obvious, but apparently not.

:evilgrin:

[Susang]

91. I just added a link to my previous post

Here is is again. You might want to revisit it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3397059&mesg_id=3398224&page=

And yes, Niemoller was specifically talking about the Nazis and the Holocaust, of which he was a victim. That is why he specifically chose the sequence of words that he did. That is why he excluded the Catholics. That is why you are wrong in this instance.

[Modem Butterfly]

92. Susanq, you simply aren't going to convince me that you know better...

...what I meant than I did. I'm sorry, but there it is. I'm not sure what you hope to gain from this, but you simply aren't going to convince me I meant anything other than what I actually meant. You aren't psychic, you aren't being particularly witty and you aren't even entertaining anymore. All you're doing at this point is putting your hands over your ears and going, "LALALALALLALALALALALALALALALA!"
Either re-boot your Windows for Telepaths (TM) or find a different line of argumentation. This one is all payed out.

[Susang]

93. I just want you to explain why you chose those words

Which you have not seemed to been able to do sufficiently. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You already know exactly why you wrote what you wrote. You are the one trying to convince people otherwise.

Again, thanks for all the personal attacks. They only serve to prove my point better than I possibly could.

[Modem Butterfly]

95. Sweetie, if it didn't work the other six times...

...what's to be gained from trying again? Seriously? No matter what I say, you keep trying to jam it into some mold that exists in your own mind whereby I compare the banning of dogs to the Holocaust. You seem literate enough to comprehend the words I'm saying, the trouble is, they don't say what you think they should mean and you can't seem to get past that. No offense, but that's not my problem.

Edited to add:

As for personal attacks, that's what the alert button is for. Use it or don't, it makes no difference to me.

[bettyellen]

94. :)

:) :)

[unsavedtrash]

51. yes and I'm a bit sick about it.

[redqueen]

52. Didn't this "vicious killer dog" mumbo jumbo get discredited in the 70's?

Remember? With all the KILLER ATTACK DOBERMAN panic that was going on? And the experts all said it was a matter of responsible pet ownership and also parents controlling their small children around dogs?

Why is this now being trotted out again?

[radwriter0555]

55. More and more cities and countries have banned pit bulls to protect their

societies.

Several Canadian provinces, a number of US cities, some benelux countries, France, and so on. Seems the more socialist the city, the more protective they are of the greater good.

[Modem Butterfly]

57. It's the 21st century, time for a new doggy witch hunt

Ignorance and hysteria always sell.

[sbj405]

65. Sweetest.dog.ever.

Wouldn't harm a fly.

[Modem Butterfly]

67. Oh, sweet little blue tongue baby

[sbj405]

73. Yeah he's the best.

Got him from a friend who rescues Chows. In working with her, we dealt with a bunch - all without incident. She was very careful in her evaluation and screening.

My other dog (a Lab mix) is sweet, too. But he's more likely to knock a toddler over( out of bounciness, not aggression) and has killed 2 feral cats. But people fear the Chow and won't think twice about petting the lab.

[Pithlet]

86. That statement scares me

It is the dog owners who think their pets are harmless and therefore don't take the precautions that are their responsibility that are a huge cause of the problem. No one should EVER assume that their dog wouldn't hurt anyone, no matter the breed. That is especially true of owners of bigger more powerful dogs.

[sbj405]

96. Wow. Guess you are taking everything literally.

It's an expression. Thanks for assuming that I don't handle my dog responsibly. Having been bitten my neighbors dog(nasty SMALL dog, I might add) as a small child and tentative around dogs most my life, I am especially cautious.

[Pithlet]

98. I'm sorry

I didn't mean to imply that. I do think that too many dog owners ARE irresponsible, and for that reason. And that is what I meant. But, that doesn't follow that you are irresponsible, and I didn't mean to accuse you of that. I do apologize.

[BattyDem]

76. There are two Pit Bulls in my family ...

My niece has one and my sister has a Pit Bull mix. Both are sweet, lovable, friendly, affectionate dogs who wouldn't hurt anyone ... unless, of course, someone was trying to hurt a member of their family - then the fur would fly! ;-) But ... I can say the same thing about my miniature poodle - he'll go after any person or animal, regardless of size, if he thinks I'm being threatened. The little idiot was ready to take on a Rottweiler at the vet's office just because the dog was sniffing me! (The Rottie was a sweetheart!) Had I been in danger, my poodle would have been lunch for the Rottie, but he would have died valiantly. :-)

Oh, and by the way ... anyone who comes for my "baby" is going to have to get through me first! I'll protect him completely or die trying. He's not a pet ... he's family. :-)

[elperromagico]

78. I had a chow for 14 years.

Gentle creature; he was a bit too playful as a pup but it was nothing dangerous. His presence in the yard certainly kept the weak-of-heart out, though. After all, a dog needn't be dangerous to seem dangerous.

[AnnitaR]

100. There are no bad breeds... only a lot of BAD OWNERS!

Slipping out of Lounge Lurk mode for this one...

I have been watching "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic and the one thing this show stresses is that very fact.

It cracks me up how the guy Cesar Milan has to hold his tongue around some of these idiotic people who have chosen to have pit bulls and rotties but do nothing but throw them in the backyard... and then are shocked when they start acting out. He asks these people how often they walk the dogs and 95% say never or once a week.

Don't know if anyone here watches the show but this guy has saved a lot of Rotties, Pits, and Chows. He has a large number at his facility in LA that would have otherwise been put down.