I wasn't going to post a Pope thread but I have to ask

[johnnie]

Do you think that by them choosing who they did, it will affect your life?
I'm just looking for answers here. As far as me personally, the Pope doesn't play in to my personal life that much. I'm sure that things are affected, but there is a lot going on in this world that seems to be worth concentrating on of much more importance.
I'm just wondering what you think.

[bertha katzenengel]

1. It could because of his stance on some things --> U.S. lawmakers.

There are some very influential Roman Catholics in Congress. A super-conservative pope could put starch in their steps. Who knows for sure, though.

[johnnie]

6. Money talks in government more than religion though

Sure there could be some influence, but how much did what Pope John Paul say that influenced bush?

[bertha katzenengel]

8. I doubt JPII said/did anything that influenced Bush -- Bush is not RC.

I'm referring more to the Santorums. I'm far more worried about Congress. The pope has no influence whatsoever on Protestants. They may agree w/ what he says but they don't follow his edicts. He's not their representative. Jesus Christ is.

Money talks -- yes. But what I mean is the spiritual, theological influence of a pope on Roman Catholics in secuar power. We already know the RR abuses their power by allowing their religious beliefs to sway their decisions that affect everyone.

[Pawel K]

22. They said the same thing about Kennedy

They were 100% wrong.

[bertha katzenengel]

31. Actually, they said that Kennedy would install a hot line to the Vatican

in the Oval Office, and that he would call the Pope for U.S. policy decisions. I'm not talking about the exact same thing.

I'm talking about a much more subtle influence. It's already happening today -- the influence of religion in our government today is evident -- hell, it's obvious. But with this pope the RCC could be yanked way to the right, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that Roman Catholic legislators may feel even more emboldened to try to codify their religious beliefs.

[Pawel K]

34. You are talking about the Christian right

liberal Catholics (like Kerry) certainly see the seperation of religion and government. The relgious fanatics on the right will do what they do no matter what, nothing will change that. This is why we need to get off our asses and prepare for 06 and 08.

[bertha katzenengel]

37. Yes. Exactly. I am talking about the Right.

I never said I was talking about liberal Christians.

Get off our asses. Agreed! :hi:

[Squatch]

2. Pope John Paul II energized the youth of Poland like you wouldn't

believe, partially just because he, himself, was Polish.

I'd like to see this Pope energize the youth of Germany in the same way.

[Pawel K]

24. I'm Polish and we admired John Paul II

he is a national hero there, when he died Poland went in to a week of mourning where most people had work off and most government offices were shut down. You have to understand what he did for the Polish people; we have every right to admire him the way we did and continue to.

[tjdee]

3. Perhaps for uneducated or conservative Catholics?

Many of the DUers I know, and the Catholics I know, are liberal folks who believe in birth control, etc. I don't believe they're going to change their views because of him.

If someone doesn't know very much/are very conservative in their feelings about the pope, I imagine Benedict (a far better name than Ratzinger) will hold some sway.

Otherwise, the only ramification I can see, besides some reevaluating their church, is that conservatives within the Church may be a louder voice and join with the fundies.

But I don't know.

[Pawel K]

25. This whole Pope is conservative so all catholics will turn conservative is

a complete myth.

Do you know any Catholic that doesn't use simple birth control like condoms? I sure don't.

[tjdee]

54. I'm not saying all catholics will turn conservative.

There are a great number of older Catholics, non-American Catholics, etc., some of whom are already conservative, and some of whom look to the Pope to provide guidance on issues like birth control, etc.

One of my friends has grandparents like that--to this day they do not believe in birth control, for example. They are conservative in other ways also --but it's not like they wouldn't make a move without the Pope. But having the Pope agree with their viewpoints encourages them that they believe/are doing the right things.

[Pawel K]

56. Do you have any examples of people in 3rd world countries

refusing birth control or education from the various aid gropus that provide these services? I sure don't.

[sui generis]

4. It matters a great deal

When the pope says that gays are evil in a developing country, he is sentencing people to death for being gay. When he says that women who have sex before marriage are sinners, in a third world country the effects might be that she will always be an outsider and shunned by her community.

At the very least, he is committing emotional terrorism and excluding a group of people from the community by condoning their shunning.

It doesn't affect me personally. But I care about more things in this world than just myself.

[Lisa0825]

9. exactly.

And in my view, every new "conservative" leader in the world is someone who will produce a negative impact on the world. I cheer everytime a country takes a step in the progressive direction, because I feel the world gets better.

I was raised Catholic, but never considered myself Catholic as an adult. Still, I feel this is a sad day for the world.

[johnnie]

11. He is just "a" conservative leader

The Catholic Church is considered very conservative. As I said on this thread, no matter who was chosen, they would still practice the same religion as they have for all these years.

[Lisa0825]

13. True, but

the Church could go BACKWARDS, remain the same, or take a step forwards. This selection pretty much guarantees that it will either remain the same or even go backwards. And I do believe that the Church's influence on a rather large segment of the world's population is not insignificant. It will affect some people and perhaps even the policies of some governments. To me, it's one step in the wrong direction, and even though I expected it, it's still sad to me.

edited to add: the Catholic Church has not always been as conservative as it is now. It would be nice to imagine a day when more liberal changes are made.

[johnnie]

15. My parents are Catholics and in their 60s

They believe in woman's choice, gay marriages and many other things I believe, They also think georgie is an asshole.
Yes, unfortunately the church has a lot of stuff to say about a lot of things, but it is up to people to do what is the right thing.

[johnnie]

10. The Pope is the leader of the Catholic church

And that church is based on certain teachings that they have interpreted the way they wanted to. That is what they are sticking to. If people don't want to follow that religion, they can leave it.
Even if Tommy Chong was elected Pope, the dogmas of the Catholic church will not change to that extreme.
I too care about a lot more than myself, but you have to pick your battles and a 2000 year old religion is a tough fight.
Maybe this Pope will be so conservative that many people will leave the church, and they will lose some of their power.

[sui generis]

21. yes but journeys are undertaken one step at a time

and this one seems to be a step backwards -

I "have faith" that decent people will always do the decent thing, regardless of what their out-of-touch leaders tell them to do.

Anyone who blindly follows what the pope-du-jour spews, for relative good or bad, isn't really exercising a lot of human integrity.

[Pawel K]

30. But if they don't agree with you they always follow it blindly?

Why is that?

There are a lot of biblical scolars that study the bible their entire life and they agree with the teachings. You might not agree with it but they do, does that mean they are wrong and you are right?

[sui generis]

45. Right is a relative term

religious people seem to think there is such as thing as absolute truth. That's why they are at odds with reality so often.

My opinion of biblical scholars who are religious, as opposed to academic, is that their "rightness" is suspect.

I don't have to "study the bible my entire life" to understand how inherently wrong, small minded, and evil it is. For it to be called the "good book" is abhorrent to me. You cannot have a tract that on one hand says to stone gays and witches and unchaste brides to death and on the other hand says to love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek and on the other hand says you're going to hell if you aren't a christian before you die. It's too schizophrenic to be taken seriously. I despise that book. I don't need to be told that the enforcement of virtue is that I will burn in hell.

I can have virtue without the bible and do more good deeds from my heart without ever ascribing the need to do so to the bible or its followers. It's just a book. It's not magical. It's not even particularly a good read.

[Pawel K]

47. I don't think you hang out with the same Catholics I do

You need to get the hell away from those republican Catholics and come to the good side.

There is no such thing as absolute truth, I don't know any Catholic that claims to understand the bible 100% and there is no chance in hell they are wrong (maybe I hang around too many progressive Catholics). You also have to admit that you don't understand this 100% and there is a good chance you are wrong as there is a good chance they are wrong.

To call the bible evil is to not understand it. What I think you are doing is taking is the definition of the religious right in this country and not looking at what most Catholics actually think and how they interpret it. Here is a good place to start:

http://www.rdmstudios.com/ourmarriage/rights/bible.htm

The bible might not mean anything to you; that's fine. People know what is right or wrong and don't need a preist to teach that to them. However, you also have to understand that the bible does mean a lot to many other people and for you to say that it is evil is no different than someone on the christian right saying you are evil for not having a religion. Both of you are wrong.

[Pawel K]

48. Just adding, the problem is in this country the right has hijacked

religion overall and used it as a political tool for themselves. The sad thing is many people do fall for it. However, you have to understand this is a huge minority if you take in to account all the Catholics in this world.

I lived in Poland when I was young and went to church almost daily; I never ever heard a preiest mention gay marriage in all that time. When I finally heard about this was in this country and mostly when the right came around with THEIR definition of "moral" values. This ruins it for most catholics that use the religion for good reasons and makes all of us look like a bunch of religious righty wacko jobs.

[sui generis]

49. fair enough - your last sentence

but it does make my point that right is relative and not absolute.

I am 100% right in my mind! And I am sure that to someone on the christian right saying I am evil for not having the same religion is right in their mind. Whose mind is "righter"? It's not enough to say we're both wrong and a third party is right, and wrong and right are simplifications here too.

My real problem with the bible is that it requires a scholar or an interpretation, and scholars and interpretations are subject to the vagaries of political, cultural and personal whim. It requires grazing like at a buffet, and as a metaphysical work it requires metaphysical intervention to understand, or so many people would have you believe.

If you can accept that I might be a good person without religion then that is enough for me. My personal reasons for decrying it don't need to be proselytized any more than someone who wishes to further religion.

I agree - there are a lot of hysterical posts out there. It's what we do as humans - we're passionate about the things we care about, and equally passionate about the things we don't care about, like stepping other people's feelings sometimes. I think there were better choices to fill the pope's slippers than Ratzinger. I don't believe it is ever appropriate to elect a leader in any community that requires an apologia or explanation from the community.

Ultimately, it shouldn't surprise anyone that in the absence of interpretation, it seems like the church from within has chosen a leader who has vowed to be a hard liner, and who has made disturbing statements about things we progressive people take for granted in our daily lives, and when we can't reconcile the apparent teleology of that choice, we are left with nothing but doubt and criticism.

[Pawel K]

52. .......

I am 100% right in my mind! And I am sure that to someone on the christian right saying I am evil for not having the same religion is right in their mind. Whose mind is "righter"? It's not enough to say we're both wrong and a third party is right, and wrong and right are simplifications here too.

Well my point is everyone is wrong; I have no clue what will happen to me when I die. Some people think they do, I say those people are wrong. However, we are spending too much time on what right and what wrong is. The point is that I think everyone should respect others beliefs even if they don't necessarily agree with them. And if you ignore the part of the Catholic church that has been ran over by religious wackos (a small minority) you will see most Catholics do this.

My real problem with the bible is that it requires a scholar or an interpretation, and scholars and interpretations are subject to the vagaries of political, cultural and personal whim.
Yeah, but this is the case with almost everything, such as our constitution. I also have a problem with this as it is abused many times, but I don't know how else you can do it. I have my own beliefs on the bible that disagree with most Catholics but I won't go into here; all I will say most Catholics I hang around don't mind my views even if they disagree.

I think there were better choices to fill the pope's slippers than Ratzinger. I don't believe it is ever appropriate to elect a leader in any community that requires an apologia or explanation from the community.
I am personally split on this pope; honestly I knew nothing about him until today. However, the main criticism of him is that he is too conservative; the problem is religion by definition is conservative. You have every right to disagree with him if you wish; however, I will get upset with anyone that has the nerve to say I am not a good Democrat if I choose to defend him or that I am wrong in doing so.

[Pawel K]

27. So all the problems in the 3rd world are the fault of the pope?

And do you think that if the Catholic religion was changed people would magically start using condoms and the AIDS population would stop? For some reason that logic doesn't pass the smell test.

[sui generis]

41. it's not as black and white as you would like it Pawel

you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this.

There are problems in the developing world. Part of the developing world are devout Catholics. Devout Catholics who terrorize people, intentionally or otherwise, with rigid readings of their faith are themselves at fault as much as the pope. Before you bluster out yet another response, let me also say that any culture that suffers from "rigid" interpretations of faith is as much at fault as the faith it espouses.

"Honor killings" and hangings and real living horrors for people in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and Iran who fall outside the norms will still continue because people love to fuck up other people, and any excuse will do.

I merely volunteer that an enlightened faith can do as much to disapprove of those actions as a medieval faith can do to tacitly approve of violence.

You do not have to personally shoulder the responsibility for defending Catholicism to the world. I am sure that you must be a decent person or you wouldn't take attacks on Catholicism and religion so personally, but there really are problems as with any global religion, and to say that religion is nothing but problems or to say that religion has no problems are both equally absurd.

[Pawel K]

46. I don't take it as personally as it seems

however, the amount of bigotry on this board since the pope died (not pointing at you) on this board has been extremely hurtful for me since I am Polish and I admire the late Pope greatly.

When you say they should allow birth control I actually do agree with you. The problem with this argument is I don't agree anyone actually uses this as an excuse to not using a condom. In 3rd world countries the problem, in my opinion, is simply the fact we can't get condoms to them. I haven't heard of anyone in these countries refusing condoms or sex education from the various aid groups that have provided these. If you have please post an example and I might change my stance. If you disagree with me on this that's fine, we can have a good discussion about it. However, when someone says the Catholic church is filled with nazis our to control people it is extremely hard to have a reasonable discussion with those people.

Religion has been used to hold many people down in the past, I know this and the Pope knew this; this is why he apologized for all the past mistakes of the church. This is something no other pope wanted to do and I admire him for it. This was not the fault of the religion and Jesus's teachings, this was the fault of the corruption of people which still exists today and isn't the fault of the pope.

When people use the Catholic religion (or any other religion) to provide excuses for hate against other people they are not following the same religion I am and the Pope clearly doesn't agree with any of it.

So to sum it up, if you disagree with the policies I can have a good discussion with you on it; however, when 15 posts show up on the front page in 10 minutes saying the new pope is just a fucking monstrous nazi I tend to take that a little personally.

Sorry about bad grammar and sp, I have been posting on the pope for the last 2 hours after only about 1 hour of sleep last night.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. Yes. I do. I left the Church last year when they asked me to be openly

hateful, via the voting booth, towards some of my brothers and sisters. It worked in perpetuating fear among the masses. Popes can have tremendous influence...even now. Plus, I do miss the tradition and peace I used to receive from going to church. :hi:

[johnnie]

12. Who told you who to vote for?

The priest?

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. The Archdioceses of Detroit demanded that its pastor set aside a Sunday

in October to sermonize against gay marriage and civil unions, citing the "sanctity" of marriage. So ours did...asking us to vote for an amendment that wasn't needed, so I got up and left. And the Gay Marriage Amendment was passed, and it was a sad day for a religion that professes to not judge its neighbor.

[johnnie]

16. That's pathetic

I quit the Catholic church as a teen. I wanted to leave earlier, but didn't want to listen to mom bitching about it..lol
I thought they were too far behind the times even back then. I looked in to other religions of the Christian faith, but ended up following my own thing.
There are some Christian churches out there that might be more to your liking. I think a church can be a good thing, if they can follow the teachings the right way and not play politics.

[Beware the Beast Man]

7. Not directly, no.

But it does wonders for my already out of control, scared-of-the-future anxiety.

Benny16 is a transitional pope, and unless he lives to 110, I don't think he'll leave a huge mark on Catholicism. I hope, anyway.

[onager]

17. Nobody expects the German Inquistion!

:hide:

Well, some of us did. I expected the Vatican's politicians-in-prom-dresses to elect the most reactionary of the pack. For a slap in the face to American Catholics, the only worse choice would have been the Cardinal-On-The-Lam, Cardinal Law. Maybe.

Fortunately I'm an atheist, so this won't affect me at all unless Ratzinger starts to take his previous job as Grand Inquisitor seriously. And forges an alliance with the right-wing American religious fascists, like Falwell and Robertson.

I think it's more likely he will provoke Reformation II.

[Beware the Beast Man]

19. He'll provoke nothing, just carry the JP2 banner.

The cards were looking for a transitional pope. I just wish they would have made a better choice.

[meppie-meppie not]

44. ditto! n/t

[July]

18. It will. My mother hasn't stopped pope-talking since JPII died.

And she didn't even like his conservatism. Now she's caught up in all the pomp and is as breathless as a schoolgirl.

I'm in for seven more long discussions on the new pope -- at least.

[johnnie]

20. Oh OK

I can see your point. I'm sorry... :hi:

[4_Legs_Good]

23. Hell yes for me

I've been toying with leaving the Church for a while. This will likely push me over the edge, and it's something that I really and truly did NOT want to do.

david

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. It might affect my life. A pope calling gay people evil can incite

Depending on who he incites, it can mean fewer rights or even death at the hands of a religious fanatic just trying to rid the world of evil.

[johnnie]

29. Everything is possible

It's just that I see so many people freaking out and this guy hasn't even had a change to have his hat fitted for him.
As I said, even if they elected those most liberal possible Pope, the dogmas of the Catholic church will remain as they are.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. You asked if it will affect my life. I responded as to how it could

and more likely than not will.

If they elected a more liberal pope, his focus would surely shift from abortion, gays and stem cells to economic policies that ensure early deaths world wide.

[johnnie]

35. I wasn't putting down your reply

I was responding to you as to not be rude. :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Oh..OK

And I wasn't picking on your statement so much as saying that I view the vitriol directed at gays and limitations of our rights to be more of a PROBABILITY than a possibility when the spiritual leader of one-fifth of the world calls us evil.

[Lars39]

28. Speaking as a non-Catholic----Yes.

Women's reproductive health will surely still suffer. Gays will probably lose ground, too. :(

[johnnie]

32. I doubt that any Pope elected would have changed that

Have gays gained any ground in the Catholic church?

[Lars39]

36. But the new pope can change things for the worse, too.

[meppie-meppie not]

42. he sure can and that's where I see things headed.

:(

[Squeech]

39. Good question

The Boston archdiocese still has issues with how the church handled the child abuse issue, hustling Cardinal Law out of the country so he wouldn't have to face a grand jury, shuttering a lot of parishes ostensibly to save money (which they ought to hand over to victims) but it's suspicious how many of the parishes they marked for closing have vocal congregants...

And the Church has meddled in Massachusetts politics for a century. Remember when "Banned in Boston" had the force of cliche? That was the Church talking. The upper echelon of the Massachusetts legislature has been Irish or Italian Catholic as long as I've been paying attention, and the Archbishop always has their attention.

I'll try to not panic and see what the current archbishop does, or whether they replace him. The newly crowned Benedict could actually boost the church's standing in town if he were to send Cardinal Law back to face the music-- unlikely, but possible.

[Mrs_Beastman]

40. If you think about it, this whole 'culture of life' crap we are dealing

right now is a direct result of JPII and American Catholics responding to Roe v. Wade....I truly believe chimp would not be in office if a whole fraction of Amurkins didn't vote solely on one issue. I've said it before...Abortion is a red herring

[meppie-meppie not]

43. ITA with you. Dickering about on the Abortion issue keeps our

eyes off the theft and rape of the WH.

[johnnie]

51. Abortion is more the the red herring

It is everyone's ace in a hole. That includes the Catholic church as well as all the politicians.

[Mrs_Beastman]

53. exactly...this tone was really started with JPII

[AngryOldDem]

50. To a large degree, it won't affect my life

But I do have my concerns for the Church as a whole, but I still intend to live and work my faith as I have been.

[RevCheesehead]

55. Yes, it might..

I think it may be possible to reach out to disillusioned Catholics in my community. It's possible that many of them don't think much about theological issues, and they only care about what happens in the local parish (right now, they're getting a new priest in a few weeks).

But it's also possible that there may be some who will be seeking out other denominations. I'd suggest that many United Methodist Churches are a viable option - at least, in the liberal parts of the country.