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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 02:54 AM
Original message
Jim Morrison -- a rock god or pretentious hack?


Finally saw Oliver Stone's The Doors. About time. And, yeah, Val Kilmer -- that dude's high on my list of favorite actors -- totally nailed the Jim Morrison imitation.



Seems to me that the Doors don't get much respect on DU. Maybe it's symptomatic of a broader sentiment out there, but I'd previously been under the (possibly erroneous) impression that their place in rock history was unassailable and that they were okay with the hip and cool crowd. Maybe times have just changed. Maybe what seemed deep and like-wow-man back in the late '60s and '70s just now seems dated and empty of lasting truth. Whatever, it seems like many dismiss the Doors -- well, Jim Morrison, at least -- as some kind of a poseur act.

There's no question in my mind that some of the Doors stuff and Jim's poetry probably earns the 'pretentious' label to some degree, especially in light of the back-to-basics rock 'n' roll revival that began in 1968 (probably a reaction to Sergeant Pepper and the like, though the Beatles began to themselves spearhead the return to basic rock right after releasing their psychedelic masterwork). It's hardly light material, most of it -- there's no better use of the Doors' darker side than in Apocalypse Now.

I've always liked the hits, for sure. From "Light My Fire"and the Elvis-like "Touch Me" to "LA Woman" and more. In the last while I've heard a lot more of their material and I've enjoyed it all, studio or live.

The dude was a showman, too. He looked almost too good, on top of it all. For me, of course, those two facts evoke the memory of Elvis and the tragedy is that both figures ended up in essentially the same place, far too early -- even earlier for Jim than for Elvis, though Jim probably burned out faster and may have been destined to have a shorter spell in the big limelight, anyway.

Of course, the Elvis connection goes further than that: Jim (like his similarly doomed contemporaries, Jimi and Janis) loved Elvis and was even thrown out of his college dorm for playing his Elvis records too loud. He also pretty much demanded that Jerry Hopkins, who produced a biography of Jim, write a similar tome about Elvis, the result (published in 1971, the year of Jim's death) being the first fully-realized major biography of Elvis. In return, Elvis is alleged by one of his relatives to have surprised them by calling Jim Morrison the "poet laureate of his generation," a statement even more surprising for Elvis' being so out of touch with most rock happenings by the late '60s and so against the drug culture and its images in pop culture.

Significantly overweight and with his system and mind ravaged by drugs and alcohol, dying alone in the bathroom was a sad way for that 27 (!)-year-old man to go. It's hard to believe he was so young, and younger still when the Doors released their first album. I don't buy that his lyrics were overblown pablum...I'm hardly a poetry expert, but the lyrics to some of his songs really do seem to indicate that this young man had the proverbial 'old soul.'

I think that Jim Morrison was a pretty incredible dude. He may not have been the best, the brightest, or the most influential, but he was a good singer (better than most might credit), an interesting lyricist, and a phenomenal live performer who threw it all away far too soon after ascending to the upper rungs of his field. I mean, he barely got to the top in any meaningful way before he began a precipitous freefall that left him dead around a mere three years later. The self-destructive version of Buddy Holly, in terms of career length.

I don't know if he had many more years of that kind of intensity left in him, but it's interesting to speculate what might have been had he cleaned himself up and returned to the stage and the studio. As was true for too many who self-destructed and died alone, far from the adulation that was theirs -- Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis, and others -- we'll never know what might have been thirty or so years on.

Drugs suck.





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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. pretentious hack
I love the Doors music, but find Jim to be the weak link. I much prefer the band.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I don't know...sometimes that organ can go on just a little TOO long
(as was breathlessly mentioned to me the last time I made niknik) :-)
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Rock God. Still the ultimate Rock God. Never will he be replaced.
Raw sexuality and talent, wrapped in mystery and power.

There's never been anyone like him.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I 2nd that.
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RevolutionaryActs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Yeah, yeah! What FreepFryer said.
:)
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. I like the Doors.
They are one of the few bands on classic rock stations that I classify as favorites of mine. Jim Morrison was a great poet and lyricist and the music was absolutely amazing.
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. Jim Morrison was amazing.
Incorporating poetry into his lyrics was very original. To me, their place in rock history is unassailable.
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Midnight Rambler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rock God with a penchant for pretentious hackery
When I was in high school, I thought Jim Morrison had to be the greatest genius rock had ever produced. Now when I look at his lyrics, they do seem kind of like the stuff I used to snicker at the goths for. But I still think he was a great singer, and more than most embodied "Sex, Drugs, and Rock n' Roll."
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Maybe it's more simple naiveté than true pretentiousness
He was young, his perceptions altered by various substances, and living in a city that heightened (and still heightens) a sense of unreality. He was also around at a time when people thought they were changing the world, before Watergate and the whole facade beginning to crumble.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. Rock God who some see
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 03:29 AM by stellanoir
as a pretentious hack. The Doors unquestionably courted and expressed some breakthrough energies at that time.

One just has to wonder. . . was it too much for them to even handle.. . .?

The long line of those who died at 27 is truly astounding.

Jimi, Janis, Jim, even Kurt. . . all where swept up by the allure of fame yet became it ultimately destroyed them. Just think it's really sad and it's hard not to wonder further, what they would have contributed had they lived longer.

Yet OTOH, some may just be not fated to be long for this world, so they pack in as much as is humanly possible in their earlier years. They're like firecrackers really. . .remarkably effusive and completely unsustainable.

Bless their hyperactive souls.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. i never 'got' the doors/morrison thing.
avg. white rock n roll band - his poetry was stream of conscienceness crap.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. "stream of conscienceness"
That's hilarious. Did you make it up yourself?
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. what, you want spelling at 3:30 in the morning?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Very disappointed ....
if that was a spelling error. I thought it was a great word play. I can see it being something I will use in the future.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Both, really
The Doors produced some of the most memorable musical moments of the '60s. At the same time, old Jim also produced some of the most pretentious waffle around. That's the beauty of it - he was just a guy who lost the plot but, on the way, he did some great stuff.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I like the way you think
True for more universally revered icons of the time, too: John Lennon produced some of the most pretentious, pointless crap ever recorded alongside some of the most brilliant material committed to tape.
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Bossy Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. Who cares? Forrest's back! I was about to send out a search party
No really, I was. It's a small planet. We were bound to turn you up eventually.:)

Morrison? I doubt I can say much intelligent about him as I grew up on that stuff. Always liked The Doors, always liked Jim. At this late date, I don't listen to them unless they come on the radio or one of my old, old tapes, but nobody was more electric when they got it all together. I had always heard that he had written the lyrics to most of their songs when in high school in a notebook he carried everywhere, but perhaps that's an urban legend. WASP (Texas Radio and the Big Beat) sort of supports this idea, though. You definitely have to get through a lot of chaff to get to the wheat but when you get there, wow. Five To One. The End. When the Music's Over. Maybe they WERE pompous and overblown sometimes, but in the end it worked. That's all anyone can ask for, right?
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I've been out knocking on Doors
Poor old dudes...

And, yeah, you're right. If you like it, you like it. It's supposed to be about that, when it comes down to it, after all. I think it was likely the supercilious hipster rock critics of the late '60s and '70s who were the ones to take it too seriously, anyway.

Running away...back to L.A... (my theme song not so long ago)
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
15. Semi-off-topic, but if you like Riders on the Storm....
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 04:04 AM by tuvor
Go to http://www.gohomeproductions.co.uk/mp3.html and scroll a little more than halfway down. There's a link to an mp3 of a mashup between the Doors doing that song and Blondie's Rapture.

Brilliant.

(A lot more great stuff there, too!)
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Cool!
I should already be in bed, but I had to stay up to hear that. Interesting novelty -- I'll check some others out when I've got more time. Thanks!
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jdots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. I hate everything about him
but I have never been able to change anyone's mind about him if they like him,they can like anyone they want,I just wish they would listen to more music and not be so caved in about a few acts.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
19. Rock God!
and aren't all a little pretentious too? But a hack? No way! The Doors were before their time.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
20. Rock God, and the fact that you have to ask shows...
...how little you know about Rock 'n Roll.

But I'm waiting for the "he was offed by a VAST CONSPIRACY" crowd to show up, and start doing what they do best: :tinfoilhat: and making themselves look silly, as usual.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. The fact that you're such a condescending a**hole merely reinforces
my belief that rock 'n' roll flew completely over the heads of some of its devotes. Or are you really a 1972-era rock critic?
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
21. pretentious hack
don't forget spoiled brat too
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Atlas Mugged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. A major correction is in order
...to your otherwise interesting essay.

You stated: (probably a reaction to Sergeant Pepper and the like, though the Beatles began to themselves spearhead the return to basic rock right after releasing their psychedelic masterwork).

There was this abomination called 'Magical Mystery Tour' that came out well before any return to basic rock.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Hottie but grossly overrated with his 'college rock' stuff.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. nicely put
I'd hit it :evilgrin:
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
24. Pretentious Hack...
imo, of course. To each their own.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. A hack wouldn't have read voraciously-I like some of Morrison's writings
and I went through a cocksman phase in my youth too. It's a guy thing-lol.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
28. Hack
HACK HACK HACK HACK HACK... HACK.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
29. Call him tone deaf.
Jim Morrison was able to put out fine poetry with dark imagery (see the entire Celebration of the Lizard cycle on the Doors In Concert album or several bootlegs), together with equal amounts of overly stylistic garbage (see just about everything on The Soft Parade), and he never seemed able to tell the difference between the two.

On stage, there's no one like him. Period. Get a concert video sometime and watch the guy go nuts.

Oh, and ForrestGump, I find it interesting that you end your tale with "Drugs suck." Think about this one -- if it weren't for drugs and alcohol, The Doors never would have happened in the first place. Heck, if it weren't for drugs, a huge porion of our culture -- everything from the poetry of Coleridge to the music of the Doors, the Beatles, ad infinitum -- would either not exist or be vastly different, and probably not for the better.

So before you go slamming drugs foor killing Morrison, remember that being bombed out of his gourd also gave him his inspiration.
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moof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. It seems you assume facts not in evidence
Concerning yout last thought,

" So before you go slamming drugs foor killing Morrison, remember that being bombed out of his gourd also gave him his inspiration. "

It would not matter if Jim himself had said this and was convinced of it, there is no proof that " inspiration " for any art form or other creation owes it's existance to drugs.

Some of the best in all fields are usually at a loss to explain where their " inspiration " comes from.

As for the credit you give drugs for a huge portion of "culture" there is no way to tell what might have been so there is no reason to think it would have been better or worse, what has happened has happened but there seems to be more reason to think that music would have had more of
everything if drugs had not killed and destroyed so many lives so early.

BTW Great thread ForrestGump, A bunch of us were discussing Jim just last week over foosball.
Not enough of a critic to offer a valid opinion but Elvis was great and Jim had some really great tunes too.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. Jim Morrison was many things.
I think that he was a very good Irish-American poet. He was a good match with the other three in terms of making some very good music. The Doors were the first major rock group to make an anti-war statement (Unknown Soldier), which was curious considering his father's position in Vietnam. He was a student of literature, and was likely the best-read rocker of his time. Great performer at some times, far too intoxicated at others. I think if he had been able to maintain some sense of sobriety, his poetry (beyond his lyrics) would have been improved.
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Squeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
32. All of the above
Lotta good points in this thread.

The question of whether he wrote all the good stuff beforehand is a crucial one. It's known that the reason the Doors existed was that Jim was hanging out with fellow film school student Ray (on the beach, no less) and recited for him the lyrics to "Moonlight Drive," and Ray thought they were brilliant and wanted to play that song.

Jim believed his own hype, and the hype he borrowed from Rimbaud et al about the "systematic derangement of the senses." Songs like "The End" and "When the Music's Over" started out as improvisations, where Jim gave himself free rein to riff verbally, which led him on the one hand to sculpt that superb Oedipal passage ("The killer awoke before dawn" et seq.), and on the other hand to toss out dumb shit like the blue bus. He thought it would work better if he stayed fucked up, and he became a classic alcoholic. (Note that it wasn't the newfangled "dangerous" drugs that did him in, but the old standard.)

I'm not sure why Soft Parade gets singled out; I don't think it's any worse than Waiting for the Sun, and I vastly prefer it to Morrison Hotel (anyone associated with that record has earned an indelible "hack" label IMNSHO). The main difference between lazy-ass shit like "Do It" and "Easy Ride" and offensive shit like "Land Ho!" and "Maggie M'Gill" is, the former is at least competently played.

The biggest problem I see with Morrison's poetic content, other than laziness (certainly a factor), is that if you start your career with big definitive statements on sex and death and the nexus between them, where can you possibly go from there? He tried mending fences with the concept of romantic love in songs like "Love Street" and, yes, "Land Ho," but it sounded forced (not to mention lazy), and his attempts to depict the citizens of Hollywood hippie burnout culture ("LA Woman," "Soft Parade," "Hyacinth House") collapsed under the weight of his expectation that death would be their finest hour. That's not necessarily hack work, but it is pretty much the dictionary definition of decadence.

All that said, I wish somebody could play me an album in the last 20 years that has the impact of Strange Days.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. somewhere in between, or both.
I love some of his lyrics/songs. And he sure is easy on the eyeballs, but there's an uncomfortable meglomaniac part of him I dislike very much.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
35. one of my most favorite older bands. nt
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Lady Effingbroke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. "Horse Latitudes"
When the still sea conspires an armor,
And her sullen and aborted currents breed tiny monsters,
True sailing is dead!
Awkward instant,
And the first animal is jettisoned --
Legs furiously pumping
Their stiff green gallop.
And heads bob up --
Poise -
Delicate -
Pause -
Consent -
In mute nostril agony,
Carefully refined
And sealed over!!!!!

This thing (it's not really a song) just popped into my head this afternoon from who knows where - I haven't listened to it in years!

Sadly, I typed the words from memory.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
39. "A drunken buffon pretending to be a poet"
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. *Some* drugs suck
I appreciate your fine short about Mr. Mojo Rising but remember it was the booze that did him in, along w/a self-destructive streak.

"10,000 mics."
-my favorite Morrison quote
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