Do you ever take your freedom for granted?

[candle_bright]

I've been thinking about this today. I know I do take it for granted. As unhappy as we may be right now, we are damn lucky to at least have the freedom to say the things we do, knowing we aren't going to get whisked off to prison. I know ChimpCo hasn't busted down my doors for speaking my mind.

One of my best friends is from Iran, and I was talking to her earlier and something just stuck with me. Sorry, not trying to bring down the Lounge but wanted some thoughts.

[Goldmund]

1. Yes.

Human rights should be taken for granted. By definition. Their originator is the universe itself. After all, who would you be grateful to for your "freedom"?

You were born free. Somebody could take it away, but nobody gave it to you.

Do you take it for granted that I'm not going to come over to your house and steal your TV?

Oh, and "busting down your door" is not the only way to enslave you, but that's a different conversation.

[candle_bright]

2. My friend was not born free

She was born in Tehran.

She lives near San Francisco, and she can do what she wants there. She cannot go back to Tehran. At all.

[Goldmund]

3. No, she was born free.

Don't be so literal, I don't mean it chronologically -- if she was not free in Teheran, then it was because somebody took her freedom away, and she is not free now because somebody gifted her with that freedom. You must take freedom for granted, like you take your very existence for granted -- this "be grateful for your freedoms" mantra is nothing but propaganda made to make you complacent to losing your freedom, since it was a gift to begin with, after all.

[candle_bright]

4. Okay

But you are switching gears. We are free in the U.S.

My friend is NOT free in Iran. It doesn't matter what you or I think. She is NOT free there. She IS free here. So am I because I was born here and live here.

The whole point of my thread was to reflect on the freedoms we have HERE and to be thankful for that freedom. If you don't get my point, please feel free to ask any Iranian you meet about freedom.

[Goldmund]

5. Whether or not you are really free here is a complex issue.

But being "thankful" is not a targetless emotion. Who or what are you thankful to?

Are you thankful that I'm not going to come to your house and steal your TV, as I asked you before? Yes, it's a bit trivializing it, but I think the analogy is appropriate.

[candle_bright]

8. That's silly

to ask me about stealing my TV. You do not have that right in the United States, so your analogy is odd at best. LOL.

Thankful means I am grateful to those who made this freedom possible. Not a "targetless emotion" at all.

[Goldmund]

10. Step out of the "patriotic" dogma for a second.

The point of the analogy is not whether or not I can steal your TV "in the United States". The point is that it's wrong to be thankful for having something that is rightfully yours, a right that you derive from your very existence -- to keep your posessions (TV), or ultimately, to be free -- taken away. The TV is yours by default; you don't need to be thankful to me for not taking it away. The same goes for your freedom.

Who made it possible?

God made it possible -- and I'm an atheist so you can take that flexibly.

[candle_bright]

12. For chrissakes

This thread has nothing to do with "patriotic dogma."

You seem wrapped up in the word "thankful." My friend is rightfully free (according to your theory), but she is NOT free in Iran. So what is she supposed to do, be non-thankful once she is free?

She was free in Iran by "default" and no one let her know? What good does that do, when she was/is powerless?

[Goldmund]

13. According to your theory,

she was born not free and is not free by default. So therefore, those who want freedom are in search of gifts -- greedy, even?

"So what is she supposed to do, be non-thankful once she is free?"

I don't know, be happy, relieved? But I'm not simply semantically wrapped up in the word "thankful". I know where you got this rhetoric, and I know the ultimate answer you'll give me to the question "so, who are you thankful to?" This is total dogma and propaganda, made for the specific purpose of mass-distributing the idea that each second one enjoys free is a gift from his/her leaders and those who died in wars they started (or didn't start).

You are free for the same reason every living being is free, excluding those who have had freedom taken away.

To take away freedom is like cutting off your hands -- taking away something that belongs to you inherently. Being thankful for your freedom is just like being thankful for not having your hands cut off.

If you mean "I'm thankful for my freedom like I'm thankful for the fragrance of a spring day", then accept my apologies.

But I'm betting on the former.

[candle_bright]

16. Whoa

Where are you from?

[Goldmund]

17. Whoa

When did you lose your virginity?

What does my personal history have to do with the issue?

[candle_bright]

20. Your personal history? LOL

Okay, if you don't want to say where you are from, that is your right.

[Goldmund]

22. This is bizarre

What is it if not my personal history???

[candle_bright]

23. Strange is what it is

I'm from the U.S. I don't find any reason to hide that.

I guess you find it to be "personal history" for me to ask that of you. Okay.

[Goldmund]

25. I'm not hiding anything

any more than you're hiding when you lost your virginity.

I asked you relevant questions about the topic we were discussing, and instead of answering them you asked me a completely unrelated question -- and now I'm hiding something? Fucked up.

If you want to know where I'm from all you have to do is click on my profile, by the way.

[Historic NY]

6. No, seeing the American flag after being out of the country for a time

reminds me just how lucky we are. (were before * )

[candle_bright]

7. Thank you n/t

[hfojvt]

9. I usually take it for granite

when in reality it seems to be like sandstone, and the BFEE has a power sandblaster.

[ffm172]

11. I grew up in the former GDR

and somehow take my freedom now for granted, yes. But there are times when I get remembered how it used to be and then I am very grateful how history in Germany turned out in 1989. There are many things that would have not been possible for if the wall wouldn't had come down.


Edit: Wow, Check Spelling doesn't know "GDR" :)

[candle_bright]

14. I remember that day in 1989

I was getting ready for tennis practice and my girlfriend came barging into my dorm room with an open bottle of wine. She is German, and half her family was stuck on the East side until that day.

I also went to East Berlin, through Checkpoint Charlie, in 1987 so I shared her tears of joy.

We ended up getting utterly hammered celebrating that night. :)

[ffm172]

15. I was only 14

and lived in Leipzig, where all those monday demonstrations were. It was a crazy time.

Good for your friend that her family could get united again. And that you celebrated that night!!!

[candle_bright]

18. Excellent!

That really was a BEAUTIFUL DAY. I'll never forget it as long as I live.

My friend had told me how they had to smuggle in items like razors for shaving, etc. And they had to hope they wouldn't get busted.

When I went through Checkpoint Charlie, they took away all of our school stuff. I went to school in Brussels, Belgium, by the way. I was an arrogant little shit back then only thinking, "Oh darn! Our homework got snagged! The perfect excuse for when we get back!"

That last part I look back on with shame for my immaturity. It was so much bigger than that.

[ffm172]

21. I remember the time afterwards more than the day itself

my parents decided to move to West Germany as soon as possible and in November I drove with my dad to the Lake Constance where we were going to live. It was a beautiful day and when we came close to the lake we even saw the Alpes in the back (took us a while till we recognized it as mountains and not as clouds). Didn't go back to school in Leipzig. The difference in the behavior towards the teachers in East and West Germany was one thing that really baffed me. It took me quite a while till I could say "Hallo" to a teacher and not "Guten Tag"

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. I'm a liberal - I *hate* my freedom, even though I constantly

take advantage of it and am forever taking it for granted, even though I'm too stupid to know what it is and too self-centered - that is, a hyper-individualist - to realize that it isn't "free" while being too communist - that is, an person who hates individuality and self-identity - to appreciate it.

[dutchdemocrat]

24. Freedom

Freedom in it's purest form is anarchy. When you cherish 'freedom' that's certainly something to think about.

The right to free speech means that someone assaults another's dignity. Freedom of association means that hate groups will gather. The freedom to bear arms means that somebody's children will eventually die in a classroom.

[datasuspect]

26. freedom to go to work? to buy inane consumer items?

some freedom.

ask those people who step outside the "free speech zone" about freedom of speech.






illusion

[datasuspect]

27. "i'm proud to be an american

where at least i know i'm free"