I'm starting to wonder if Jackson is innocent

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

For years I have assumed Michael Jackson is a molester of young boys. I have commented on it, joked about it, and generally treated it as a matter of certainty since the early 1990s.

The problem is that I've lost sight of where my belief came from. Did I ever examine the evidence presented by his accusers? I don't think I did. After some honest self-searching I've realized my belief in Jackson's evil stems from my resentment of his popularity during my youth (not that I wanted to be a pop star, but I hated popular and trendy people) as well as his bizarre self-presentation. Yet there have been times in my life when people would believe anything about me because of how I chose to present myself.

So I'm starting to lose faith in Jackson's guilt. His ham-handed stupidity in handling the press and accusers seems like an indication of innocence. (He doesn't seem sly or sociopathic enough to be putting it on.)

If Jackson walks, are we sure it is because the richer party wins every time in our justice system? Or could it be that it just takes A LOT of money to protect oneself, even when innocent, if the DA for one reason or another wants your ass?

[donheld]

1. For what it's worth - from the LA times

SERIOUS THINKER/SURREAL TRIAL
Wacko Jacko's Mooch Accusers
By Elaine Showalter
Elaine Showalter is a cultural critic, professor emeritus of English at Princeton University and the R. Stanton Avery Distinguished Research Fellow at the Huntington Library. She is the author of "Sex

March 13, 2005

Private jets, white limousines, spa treatments, posh resorts, cosmetic surgery — we heard quite a lot in Michael Jackson's child-molestation trial last week about the lifestyles of the allegedly abused and victimized. As the mother and siblings of Jackson's Accuser have explained in their video interviews and courtroom testimony, they went from living cramped in a one-bedroom apartment in East L.A. to living large on the proceeds of celebrity charity and compassion.

"We were broken and Michael fixed us," Accuser Mom said in a video made by Jackson's team and shown to jurors.

She could also say that they were broke and Jackson funded, clothed, fed and housed them. The long list of celebrities (including Jay Leno, Mike Tyson and Adam Sandler) the Accuser Family allegedly solicited for funds suggests that being broken, as well as broke, was their full-time source of support.

There's a controversial psychological disorder called Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, in which a parent, almost always a mother, seeks repeated medical attention and surgical treatment for a child with mysterious ailments that turn out to be fabricated or even inflicted by the mother. Psychologists who have studied Munchausen's observe that financial gain is rarely the motive; instead, the mother is seeking a sense of importance and distinction.

In what I call Moochausen's Syndrome by Proxy, however, the motives are purely economic — a parental figure makes money from a child's genuine illness or star potential.

In literature, Fagin and his gang of child pickpockets are thrilled to come upon the orphaned Oliver Twist and to profit from his possible inheritance.

"When the boy's worth hundreds of pounds to me," Fagin tells a compatriot about finding Oliver, "am I to lose what chance threw me … ?"

In the wacko world of Moochausen's, a child's disease, a charge of shoplifting or proximity to a rich celebrity with a reputation as a weirdo and a history of settling accusations with huge cash payments can be a lucky break, an opportunity for the deprived to cash in. And these days there are enough examples of successful parents exploiting and overworking children with acting, athletic or musical ability to make those who do not cash in seem almost un-American.

Michael Jackson himself has said that he was literally beaten and figuratively robbed of his childhood by his father, who mooched off his talented children.

Maybe we shouldn't blame Accuser Parents for trying to grab what chance throws them, even if it is cancer. Perhaps from their point of view, they are needy rather than greedy, like Oliver Twist when he plaintively asks, "Please, sir, I want some more."

When Moochausen's becomes a way of life, it has to be sustained, so after disease and remission come charges of sexual abuse, lawsuits and claims of damage. But in the first week of this trial, it is far from clear exactly who has been damaged and how.

[FreedomAngel82]

12. Thanks for posting that it's a good article

I wonder myself. I was watching a little bit about this on Scarborough (he thinks Jackson is guilty) and one woman from Court TV made a good mention. She said that after August 2001 Jackson cut himself off completley from the boy and his family and changed his number. But then whenever he had that whole interview documentary thing with the British reporter and wanted to show himself as "caring for the kids" he called the boy up right away and asked him to come be apart of it and hold hands. Some rabbi guy was on there who has known Michael over the years and was saying how Michael really doesn't care that much about the kids and it's all a promotion thing for the public and when he was doing a charity event he had to literally drag Michael out. So I only wonder. He isn't doing much to prove his innocence personally.

[Warpy]

2. Take one attention seeking stage mother and one mixed up kid

and add an overzealous DA who thinks a suspect "got away" when another extortion attempt was successful, and throw in a suspect who looks and acts completely weird, and you have the present circus.

[not systems]

3. He might be. If so he is one of history's most persecuted individuals...

and a real victim of the trial by media.

He will never be able to clear the stigma no mater
what the truth is or how the trial turns out.

[autorank]

32. Hahahahaha..

Please stop with the persecution nonsense. The guy has screamed for help in so many ways...the early 90's settlement, the people who've come forward on tape, the hanging baby routine, the documentary where he outed himself...please stop with the innocence - persecuted stuff.

It is so naive.

[Skittles]

49. I agree, regardless of whether or not the trial is a media circus

Michael Jackson is a serious mental case and parents who let their children hang out with him should be investigated for neglecting their children or even worse, exploiting them for profit.

[Sanity Claws]

4. I think there's reasonable doubt here.

I don't think Michael Jackson never molested a little boy. However, I certainly have reasonable doubt that he ever molested this little boy as alleged.
I don't think that the richest one always wins either. I think most people were ready to find him guilty before the trial even began.

[not systems]

6. Why do you believe that he did?

I have never seen nor heard and real evidence other
than the fact he is a freaky looking and acting guy
with a Peter Pan complex.

I just don't think I have ever heard any real evidence
just slander and assumptions.

[Warpy]

13. Right, plus he's WAY out of the profile of the typical pedophile

Most pedophiles are married men with children of their own, men who seemingly go out of their way to look and act as normally as possible.

Jackson has a flashing neon sign over his head that says "WEIRDO." He's never been able to manage a real marriage, and has had his kids with hired wombs, pretty much.

Is it impossible? Hell no. Is it even LIKELY? I'm not so sure.

[LisaL]

18. I would say he is not typical anything, so your argument

goes right out the window.
:evilgrin:

[Sanity Claws]

22. There was the incident several years ago

when he was accused and he paid mega bucks. Maybe I'm wrong to presume he was less than innocent there too. I just don't know. I also think it's unusual for a grown man to share a bed with children who are not his own. He did admit to this on that television tape.
Those were the bases of my prior statement. I made no assumptions based on his appearance. Being weird is not the same as being a potential pedophile.

[not systems]

29. Being a "potential pedophile" is not...

the same as being one either.

[Scout1071]

5. Although i don't believe he's exactly innocent, i do believe he's been

set-up on this one.

[bilgewaterbill]

8. My sentiments exactly.

If votes are being swayed toward his innocence during the prosecution phase, imagine what's going to happen when the defense gets its turn. He may not be innocent, but he's defintely going to be found not guilty.

[EC]

7. It's hard to tell, since we know how the Media can skew

opinion and perception. I don't know that he's guilty either, but I do know he's got some real psychological problems, just like Latoya and even Janet, the other kids aren't public enough for me to even guess what their psyches are like...

[mike_c]

9. frankly, I haven't started to care....

on edit-- OK, this is obviously an important matter for Michael Jackson. That's where its importance ends, IMO.

[devilgrrl]

28. We're so on the same page...

I couldn't give a flying rat's ass either.

[LisaL]

10. Would you send your little boy down to Neverland?

[walldude]

16. I'd have to meet Jackson to answer that

It sure is looking like there is alot of contradiction in the testimony.

[realisticphish]

17. that's missing the point

i wouldnt get into the back of a van with a strange guy in an overcoat, but that does nothing to prove that he's a criminal or a pervert. is michal wierd? yes. would i put my child in a situation where he is near him? fuck no. does that make him automatically guilty? not by a long shot

[MostPeopleDO]

11. I don't wonder...

I'm fairly sure he's innocent.
All I can say is, poor Michael.
No one knows anything about the accuser, only the accused.

What, that he's not like everyone else?

At least with Tyson or other crucified celebrities, there was reason to hate.

He's led a more distorted and freakish life than anyone can imagine. Not of his own choosing.
Is there something wrong with him? Yep. Does that make him a criminal? No.

I always have a feeling that the same people who hate and deride Michael Jackson are the gay haters, the artist haters, the pascifist haters, the diversity haters, the racists, the bigots, the Republicans. He appears to be a freak, so he must be destroyed.

Leave him alone. He's given us his music. Which I still enjoy. It may not be Vivaldi, but it is something lasting and legacy that is non-destructive and creative for a change.

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are ten times the freak Michael Jackson will ever be. Yet they're living large and laughing easy.
Its too bad we don't destroy war-mongers, fascists, and fanatics the way we persecute artists in this country.

[LisaL]

15. Not of his own choosing?

You gotta be kidding me. Mother nature was generous to him. He was born perfectly good looking and completely normal. If he is freakish looking now, it's all because of his own doing.

[realisticphish]

19. psychology was given my mother nature as well

he definately has mental problems, which are NOT his fault

[LisaL]

20. Not his fault? Whose fault is it?

I think he is completely messed up in the head. He is raising little kids, I worry about those poor kids. The kids won't have any chance to be normal, IMO.
As for the boys, he likes them before they hit 13, but he dumps them afterward. It doesn't proves he molests them, but it's peculiar, to say the least.
I mean, he likes to be surrounded by cute little boys younger than 14 years old. He loses interest in them after they get too old. What would be the reason for that? I mean, would you dump your friend cause he got a year older?

[MostPeopleDO]

24. no.

"Not his fault? Whose fault is it?"


"I think he is completely messed up in the head."

So psychological disorders are one's own fault?

You better let the APA know about that one, soccer mom.

[LisaL]

31. Is there anything that you think is one's own fault?

One might argue that everything we do is the result of our genetics and upbringing. Are we responsible for anything we do?

[realisticphish]

39. in a sense, yes, but in a sense, no

someone who, say, murders, has done something wrong. but, if it is not his fault, then we should just let him go, right? ah, but no. imprisoning a man who murders has an effect on those who might murder, by giving them a reason not to. thus, the imprisoning of this man helps to reduce the likelyhood of future occurances.

[Amfortas]

37. Because ......

Micheal Jackson himself has the mind of a ten year old....how come it's not apparent?.

His story is tragic ,,, it didn't have to reach this stage ......

I suspect that because of his affluent upbringing , where his world was filled with rich white people he just never accepted being black, and just decided to change his looks.

he's a tragedy , then again there exists almost 6 billion tragedies in this world .

[MostPeopleDO]

23. no SHIT

I'm glad you judge individuals based on their appearance. I feel bad for any transgendered people who you may pass in public. Why aren't you on the Freeper board? You clearly don't even respect our values.
Who gives a shit what he looks like?
His childhood was bizarre and unnatural. I'd like to see anyone else go through his outer-space upbringing and not commit suicide.

What have I gotten from Michael? Art and entertainment. I was never molested by him and neither was anyone I care about. I have no reason to believe anyone was.
And I don't give a shit how people look or how they desire to look. I'm not all about your blonde-hair blue-eyes bullshit.

So give me a substantial reason to hate an artist and I will.

[LisaL]

27. Are you saying he is transgendered?

:eyes:
You haven't been molested by him? Have you ever even met him?
I would think in order to be molested by him, at the very least one have to meet him first?

[karlrschneider]

25. Well done post. I too think MJ is a weirdo but that isn't (yet) against

the law. However I'll let the jury decide this one. Welcome to
DU in any case! :D
:toast:

[candy331]

14. Read some of this well researched site with references.

Plenty foot note references.

http://www.mj-case.net/part1.html

[walldude]

30. Very interesting stuff there Candy..

Thans for the link :toast:

[lonestarnot]

21. IS INNOCENT! and I don't even care about the case but for the injustice

involved.

[VelvetMonkeyWrench]

26. Is he weird? Oh yea. Is he guilty? Can't say...

Odd yes, but guilty?

If I was on the jury I haven't seen enough to cast that vote yet. If one entartains the "its a setup" possibility there's a lot of possible benign scenarios that could explain his prints on the porn.

ex. If someone walked up and handed you some porn saying "hey, check this out", your prints would be on it even if you just handed it back or whipped it in the corner saying "stop looking at that crap kid".

Its clear at this point the accusers testimony should be mostly disregarded and the physical evidence presented isn't definitive.

I'd lay 5:1 odds that he walks right now.

Mind you, I'm somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun on dealing with REAL child abusers, but this one has me wondering so far.

[autorank]

33. Reading this thread, I feel the need for a shower. GET REAL.

Oh, and how about an "I'm starting to wonder if OJ was really innocent" thread.

This shows the power of a full blown media campaign to "poison the well" of public opinion and try to preserve what little shred of a career Jackson has left.

He sleeps with young children and tells people he does that. He expounds on his 'love' of being with children. He hangs his baby out a balcony window for laughs. Others have come forward and made public statements of his abuse in the past. He settled a $24 million dollar case in the 90's over similar charges. He knew he couldn't knock around that family (that victim will testify at this trial). There is forensic evidence will be compelling unless the DA lied about this to the Grand Jury totally. And we'll see if Jackson testifies.

:wtf: are so many of you doing touting a guy that looks this guilty.

And, BTW, how many of you who are parents would send your children to "Neverland Ranch" to be alone with Jackson for a weekend?

Amazing! I never thought I'd see this here.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

42. But don't you think it's a little weird

That Jacko was a superstar for a good decade before any allegations arose, and when they did it coincided with a time of sudden, intense public interest in child sex abuse?

[autorank]

44. Not at all. The "intense public interest in child sex abuse" was just

an anomaly that focused attention on a long standing problem. It was crushed and discredited by the "false memory" crew who, according to Columbia Journalism Review, captured the press for about four years in the '90's with 70% of sex abuse stories focusing on "false memories." By the end of that odd little journey by CM (corporate media) the only people left doing any thing about it were professionals and law enforcement. This was vile and disgusting by the media and without any relevance to the real world ("false memories", don't get me started, it's a bogus and peripheral issue).

If I were on the jury, I would have no opinion. I'm not and my opinion is that, as Arnold says, where there's smoke, there's fire. This guy is wrong, IMHO, and he's begging to be stopped. It's all very sad. The stuff about 'he doesn't fit the profile' etc. is silly. Do we let people off when there is strong evidence against them because 'they don't fit the profile.'

You're a reasonable guy for not getting in a flame war with me given my semi-provocative post so here's the deal. Listen to the rest of the evidence and see what you think. Just remember, CM is just there to sell products, one of which is the never ending story of this clown or that (there is much worse than Jackson's crap going on and it's chilling).

As an example, shit head Dan Abrams on his show (I'm ashamed to have watched about 10 min) said that the accuser had a bad day because Jackson's attorney cited an instance where the boy denied any abuse to his school principal. What a fucking moran Abrams is. The nature of this type of trauma, particularly in male on male abuse, is denial. Kids will tell the truth but it has to be in a situation where they feel free to speak and where they trust the individual. Anyone with any knowledge about this sort of thing knows that. But Dan Abrams wants to create a little drama...ahhh...I'm ranting.

Just hang in there and watch/listen to the rest of the story. We'll talk again.

:hi:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

48. I definitely see your side

I didn't think very differently about this until just tonight. I don't have kids and if I did I would be loath to leave them with anyone I didn't know very well, let alone a creepy pop star. The guy is weird about sex and his obsession with childhood is certainly extraordinary.

I was just reading over some of the coverage of the current case and the prosecution's star witness appeared to me to be bullshitting. The reason I'm up so late is I that had to grade 75 college freshman papers by tomorrow morning, so I'm pretty much an expert on the subject of bullshit (especially of the teenaged variety).

I'm not prompted by any particular love or compassion for Jackson himself. My sensitivity to this issue comes more from the documentary film "Paradise Lost," in which a man I could identify with was sentenced to death essentially for looking strange, and some personal experience as a defendant (in non-sex-related cases). :)

[autorank]

54. Oh God, you've got my sympathies.

Used to tesch graduate school (adjunct) and yikes, what a bunch of cry babies -- did I get an A, how do I get an A, can I get an A still! I'll check out that movie. It sounds like something I should have seen and missed. We'll see what happens. Good luck with the freshpersons!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

51. Have you read about the other case, the one that was settled?

People have provided links, perhaps you should take a gander. It is far from proof that he was guilty.

I don't know one way or the other, but I do feel that he's getting railroaded. Sad fact is, people still hate weird people. Throw in a little homophobia ( and we know how scared of anything homo the vast majority of the population is via election 2004) and voila. I don't contest that he is weird, but that doesn't make him a child molester.

And are you saying the media is FOR michael jackson? You've got to be kidding me. The fact is, they are only presenting this side because it is difficult to make a shoplifting, admitted perjurer appear sympathetic.

Also, did you know that while the woman was supposedly "kidnapped" she was still out and about shopping? Some kidnapping, huh?

[BoogDoc7]

34. My take...

After that British interview, I've more or less decided on Jackson, that he's one of the few guys out there who is weird enough to actually have done what he said in the interview, and NOT have molested the kid. Everyone else you think, yeah, he's a perv. Jackson is so strange, he may actually NOT be one.

I think that, at least, he didn't molest this kid; and if there was ANYTHING going on, we'd have quite a few more coming out of the woodwork a la Catholic Church. The kid - and his family - is almost as much of a head case as Jackson, except they're probably doing some illegal stuff. That kid is bound to wind up in jail, anyway, and if they DID win the case and win a civil suit, the money would be gone in months.

[autorank]

35. And we'd have quite a few people ratting on election fraud.

He is strange but that doesn't mean he isn't a pervert. If I've learned anything in the past five years it's, don't underestimate the effectiveness of the media maestros and "management" in spinning a story.

Wait until all the evidence and witnesses are done. It will get interesting.

[Seldona]

36. Not I.

The MAN has an amusement park and zoo on the grounds of his estate. He has a room literaly stuffed with toys and teddy bears right next to his BEDROOM.

He has admitted, on television, that he would rather keep the company of children then that of adults, and this includes sharing his bed with children that are not his own. And he has children already, though not a single one of them is the result of relations with a member of the opposite sex.

He has had a fake marriage. He paid off one family already.

I do not know about you, but if I were accused of something so hienous, I would NEVER pay them off to make it go away. He had the resources to fight the case, and I simply cannot believe an innocent man would settle. Again, I sure as hell would never do that.

Everything about this guy SCREAMS pedophile to me.

I mean this guy could have any woman or man for that matter, he wants.

And who does he focus on? Children.

I won't say he is guilty, because I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

But I can say that I would never allow my children to attend his theme park and zoo, or be alone with this guy no matter what was offered.

His entire life if focused on children. He has spent millions ensuring that he would have many, many, children around his home.

For someone who is able to indulge his every fantasy, he sure seems to be interested in one thing and one thing only.

Just my 2 cents.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. Your post is filled with inaccuracies/assumptions..

First, he and his ex wife have said that their children were conceived naturally.
Second, neither has ever said it was a fake marriage. What makes it fake? Because it ended in divorce? So are half the marriages in the U.S. fakes then?
Third, you should read about the reasons he settled. Another poster posted a great link. Or hell, even watch Court TV a little. You would be surprised at the things innocent people will do when they are scared, including giving full confessions.
Fourth: Check out the background and the premise of the family he "paid off". Again, it is not that black and white.

You say that you will not say he is guilty, but you have assumed all sorts of things to get to your position that he is probably guilty.

[Melynn]

38. The prosecution has a weak case.

MJ may be found innocent. The problem is if he is really a child molester. If MJ is a child molester and is found innocent, he will never be charged with a crime again. Even if he is guilty.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

40. True enough

Though to me it is as much of a problem if he is innocent and gets convicted.

Nice avatar by the way. "FREEDOM!" (It is Wallace tartan, no?)

[gauguin57]

41. We haven't heard from Corey Feldman yet!

He's indicated he's gonna testify Michael did something weird with him when he was one of Michael's little mini-me's back in the day.

But Corey needs a career boost (The Surreal Life didn't do it for him), so he probably sees this as his ticket.

What a freaking freak show! Bring on Liz, Liza, Bubbles and the Elephant Man!

[gauguin57]

43. Aide will testify Jackson in on accuser kidnap/intimidation scheme

http://www.imdb.com/news/wenn/#1

Jackson Aide Set to Reveal All About Kidnapping Conspiracy

One of Michael Jackson's most trusted aides is set to turn on the King of Pop after revealing he has journals and taped phone conversations detailing plans to intimidate his child molestation accuser and his family. Music producer Rudy Provencio was one of Jackson's trusted inner circle in early 2003, when allegations of child molestation and conspiracy to kidnap started to circulate around the pop superstar. According to American news show Celebrity Justice, Provencio attended meetings at Neverland, kept a journal at that time and recorded all phone conversations between himself and Jackson. Prosecution sources claim Provencio heard the entire alleged conspiracy to kidnap Gavin Arvizo and his family, and wrote it all down in his daily journal, which he has kept for years. After he was presented with a warrant to seize the journal and his phone records, Provencio voluntarily surrendered the potentially incriminating evidence. And now he'll testify that Jackson had full knowledge of, and participated in, the alleged conspiracy to intimidate the accuser's family and get them out of the country for good.

[ultraist]

45. I'm not sure either

The story keeps changing. It sounds like there has been some coaching of the supposed victim. This mom has some questions in her background, particularly her taking and asking for money.

Jackson is a great target for extortion. He has left himself wide open for something like this.

Is it just one kid he is accused of molesting with this trial?

[OneBlueSky]

46. guilty or not (and I don't believe he is), there's no way . . .

that the prosecution can prove this case "beyond a reasonable doubt" . . . that write-up was interesting and revealing, and answers a lot of disturbing questions about how this case is being handled both by the prosecution and the media . . . and you can bet that all of it will be introduced by the defense at some point . . . there's enough reasonable doubt here to drive a Mac truck through . . .

as to why I don't believe he's guilty . . . Jackson obviously has a thing for young boys, but the guy's not stupid . . . after having to shell out millions and suffering a severe blow to his image in 1993 (over what now seems to have been a scam), he'd have to be completely out of his mind to get involved with a kid . . . particularly since the alleged abuse took place as they were trying to deal with the fallout of the video with the kid . . . also, there are just too many similarities between the leaked transcript of the earlier kid's grand jury testimony and testimony in the current case . . . in some instances, the language is almost identical . . .

if what's reported in this document (http://www.mj-case.net/index2.htmlis) even remotely accurate, it appears that accusing Michael Jackson in hopes of a big payoff has become something of a cottage industry in California . . . and it seems that the current case is just the most recent example . . .

[ultraist]

47. it's not a matter of being stupid though

If he does have some illness that causes him to molest children, that will interfere with his judgement. BUT, he has a LOT of handlers who babysit him. They all have a vested interest and stand to lose a LOT of money if he were put in jail. It seems like they would managing his actions. I doubt he is ever alone. He has a big staff with him at all times.

I agree, there seems to be reasonable doubt.

[dsc]

50. Remember Bill Clinton

He literally was on top of the world and had been elected President despite everyone thinking he was an adulterer. Yet he went and did it again.

[B Calm]

53. I'm sick of hearing about the sick bastard. Did you hear about the

Iraq Veteran marine who shot a US sailor?

[Pool Hall Ace]

55. Well, I don't think MJ is innocent

though I wouldn't blame the jury one bit if he were found not guilty.

Like so many celebrities, he is guilty of being a tiresome attention whore who overestimates his importance in the cosmos. I feel bad for the family of the woman who was moved from her hospital room and later died of a heart attack. Perhaps she would have died anyway, but because of Michael's hospitalization, she was moved to a smaller room and was permitted only two visitors at a time.

And why was Michael even hospitalized? On the TV Guide channel, I heard Joan Rivers say the diagnosis was a "slight cold" (then she made some lame-ass joke about him taking children's aspirin). Other diagnoses I've heard mentioned were "flu-like symptoms" or "stomach flu" (sorry folks, there's no such thing as stomach flu).

If he wants to avoid child molestation charges, stop sharing the bed and holding hands with unrelated pre-teens! The poor widdle tortured manchild does not get an ounce of sympathy from me. :eyes:

[_TJ_]

56. I will respect the jurys decision

Let's face it - they will be spending a lot more
time than the rest of us scrutinizing the evidence
in detail.