Questions about Tipper

[UrbScotty]

1. Don't you think she would be a fine First Lady?

2. Do you think she's cute?

3. What do you think Al loves most about her?

4. What do YOU like most about her?

5. Do you know her real name? :-)

[chemp]

1. Tough

1. No.
2. No.
3. Her drive and ambition.
4. Not much. She's not a Bush?

[fit4life]

2. She's a sweetheart.

I had a tough time warming up to her though after the 80's and the PMRC. I was a BIG Twisted Sister fan when I was younger (quit laughing at me!) :)

[ET Awful]

6. Yup, her whole PMRC thing really pissed me off.

She went after everyone from Twisted Sister to Ice-T. Sorry, but I won't really lend my support to someone who is in favor of censorship.

[SheilaT]

9. Putting warning labels is

NOT censorship. Otherwise you need to consider the movie rating system censorship. But then, maybe you do.

Censorship is not informing people of the nature of content. Censorship is keeping stuff from being printed, published, whatever, in the first place. What the military does in not letting civilians find out what's really happening at Guantanamo or in Fallujah, THAT'S censorship.

[Feathered Fish]

10. Hmmm

Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMRC

[SheilaT]

17. Exactly.

They wanted to put warning labels.

The word censorship is thrown around quite loosely, and it's just amazing how Tipper Gore has been vilified for what was ultimately a pretty benign action. It was one that got enormous press, far out of proportion to what was being proposed. And meanwhile, few people out there care at all that the people of this country are being totally uninformed about what's really happening in our government, in our military, in our foreign policy. THAT'S censorship, not a somewhat misguided attempt to make the fact of sexually explicit lyrics known to the purchasers of music.

[Longgrain]

3. Answers to all of your questions...

1. A definite yes, but then again nearly any Dem woman would comrade to pickles.

2. :loveya:

3.She seem very down to earth, intelligent, and she seems like an around fine woman.

4. I know she has an interest in photography, which I admire, and she's so darn cute :loveya:

5. Mary

On the negative side there was that whole censorship thing she was involved in, but that's GD talk.

[Feathered Fish]

4. Not a friend of mine.

1. I wouldn't trust her
2. No
3. I'm not going to speculate
4. Nothing
5. No, and I don't care

[ikojo]

5. In order

1. No: I don't tolerate censorship and will not forget her efforts at that. It matters not whether those doing the censoring have a D or an R after their name, it is still a bad thing.
2. No
3. Her perkiness
4. Not much....she claims to be a Deadhead and it it's true then I like that about her.
5. No

[sendero]

7. On this "censorship" thing...

... I've read and heard in interviews that ALL she was asking for was the "explicit advisory" label, which she got.

I can't think of a think wrong with that label. That is not censorship, that is truth-in-labeling.

Was she *really* advocating censorship, or is that just sloppy thinking?

[Feathered Fish]

8. Why don't you ask her

why the Alternative Tenticals office was raided? Hint: they were looking for obscene materials.

[Dogmudgeon]

13. Was that Tipper?

I thought it was Philadelphia's own Li'l Mussolini, Lynne Abraham, and Philly FOP tool Lou Costello that instigated that action, piqued as they were that AT/the DKs would dare exercise their Constitutional freedom to portray cops in a bad light.

--p!

[Feathered Fish]

14. You are right

but it was most definitley a link in the chain of shit that the PMRC started.

[Dogmudgeon]

16. How the PMRC is used

Censorship laws in the 80s failed laregly because the opposing lawyers would argue that we had the PMRC, and that was enough.

I think the definitive case was an old-school hip-hop album that spurred several (dozen) bills promoting censorship. Eventually, the PMRC became the Hammer of Thor against censorship. None of those bills became laws.

I'd personally have preferred the bills to have failed because of the deep and abiding revulsion Americans have for censorship, but we ought to consolidate our wins where we find them, and then try for more. The PMRC eventually became a sword that cut the censors down.

Frank Zappa started out as a fierce opponent of Tipper and the PMRC, but changed his mind about it. I suspect Tipper was aware the effect it would have against the out-and-out censors.

My own fear isn't that censorship will take place, but that the communication "market" will become so owned that soon all speech will be commercial speech. Censorship can be fought. Ownership philosophy is usually accepted wholesale. Example: The many DUers who rant about how music sharing is "theft".

--p!

[progmom]

19. You mentioned Frank Zappa

Tipper and his widow, Gail, are now very close friends. I thought that was really interesting.

[chenGOD]

21. music "sharing" is theft...

anyway you try to justify it.
Unless you purchased the music (or it was licensed by the artist for sharing), you have no legal right to own a copy of it.

Understand me: I have no interest in seeing the RIAA further consolidate it's hold over the music industry, but file-sharing does hurt small labels. When artists have to take a day job to make money, they are unable to spend time on their creative output.
"oh but artists shouldn't do it for money, they should do it for a love of the music!!!"
Unfortunately, love of music doesn't pay for bills/equipment/food/guitar strings/keyboard parts/new shoes. Less time to create means less chance for you to hear the music you love.

[Dogmudgeon]

27. Morality and Entrepreneuring: Buying Righteousness

You pitched your argument that file sharing is theft by proclaiming that any rebuttal is "justification". Do you really want to do that?

It's like saying "I'm right, and any other opinion is wrong." And since "justification" is a term with psychological baggage, it's the "Bad and Mad" argument. In other words, it's a dishonest argument.

My contention that file sharing is not theft goes far beyond the idea that the artist deserves compensation. The artist DOES deserve compensation, but BY LAW, receives very low compensation for phonorecords (CDs, vinyl, tapes, or computer files) and similar embodiments of art. Courtney Love testified about this a few years ago, backed by the EFF, and laid out a very strong case; George Michael and Prince established that artists' contracts to the recoding companies have been quasi-legal forms of slavery.

Then we could add the body of case law already on the books concerning the rental of videos and the sales of magnetic recording media. Many of these issues had already been settled.

The way the laws are being re-written, the Internet is fast becoming a playground filled with broken glass, used syringes, sharp metal and poisonous bugs. The Industry had two choices: Either improve their business model, or invest money to have the laws written that they want.

And you know which one they chose.

In other words, the entertainment companies are engaged in illegal market manipulation, depending on Big Gummint to protect the rights that they should be protecting themselves (under 500 years of common law), making file auditing (for self-protection) impossible, and worst of all, practicing "Moral Entreprenuring" by selling us on the morals they want us to have.

There is more detail I could add, too; small nuances of law that I only learned about by reading up on it myself. Because I, too, am a "creative artist", and I'm currently looking at ways to generate cashflow without turning any of my potential fans into felons.

Being concerned about the propriety of data objects and their ownership is exemplary, but I sense that you've tried to figure out which thief in the prison is the least guilty. Data ownership started out murky, and has gotten murkier, all to allow a generation of corporate lawyers stay employed.

Initiating aggressive litigation against children, directly or by proxy, including holding them up to public ridicule, ought to be prosecuted as a civil rights violation, but our court system values children even less than phonorecords (currently pegged at 15 cents per item).

Deliberately promoting chaos and fear in order to make money, in my opinion, is by far the worst crime. As a "content provider", such a "market" would be a nightmare, returning total control over publication of all works of art to the entertainment companies.

The business model of the future is to have an ISP surcharge or subscriber charge that does not limit downloading. The small marketing enterprises that have proven that it's extremely lucrative, even in a market dominated by anarchy. Just the improvement in quality control makes it worth while for most people.

Comcast (my ISP) has started on a small scale, and it looks promising. I will soon be able to buy "content" over cyberspace for much less money. So chances are I will buy much more of it. The artists will get audited micropayment compensation, but the cumulative amounts mean they will be paid better than they have been by selling physical product. I've spent plenty of money for phonorecords on all sorts of media, and am not a big-time Warez Pirate by any means. I can't recall the last time I DLed an unlicensed MP3.

The file sharing dilemma will not go away, and will only get worse, unless the entertainment companies give up on their fever dreams of controlling all aspects of their product. No law gives the vendor the right to dictate all aspects of product use, and no law should give business the right to enact and enforce its own laws and create public morality through advertising.

There is PLENTY of money to be made by going to as unobtrusive a distribution model as possible. Failure to do so will keep the pressure high -- and the profits low.

--p!

[AlGore-08.com]

12. She most definitely was NOT advocating censorship

She was asking for voluntary warning labels to be put on albums, not a mandatory system. The label system she was asking for was similar to the (involuntary) ratings system that was (and still is) in place for films, and the (involuntary) TV ratings system today.

The entertainment industry strongly opposed the idea because - - try not to be shocked - - they did and still do market adult music, films, TV shows, comic books, video games, etc., etc. to children because they know kids are the easiest market to manipulate. A kid will buy anything and everything that is marketed as cool and/or rebellious. They are much, much more likely to buy on impulse. And kids will buy stuff just because it shocks them. ("I can't believe he just farted in her face! How cool is that?") It's easier to ensure sales if you're selling something because it is extremely violent, or sexual than something that has artistic merit or is just entertaining. Sex and violence is insurance, like having an established star in the lead role or doing a sequel instead of an original story.

I know this because I work in the entertainment industry. I see this up close and personal every day of the week.

The folks who opposed the warning label system claimed that it would reduce the income of musicians. But hello - - it's the entertainment industry that has made it so difficult for musicians to actually make money off of their art. The warning labels don't pay musicians pennies for every thousand dollars of profit the music makes, buy up the rights before agreeing to distribute the music, and have a stranglehold on the system of distribution - - the entertainment industry does. The same 50 plus year old white guys in suits who have turned American news into GOP spin points 24/7 are the exact same guys who fought the voluntary warning labels.

Promoting their spin that Tipper Gore wants censorship is as misguided as promoting the idea that global warming is a myth.

In case anybody's really interested in Tipper Gore as a potential first lady - - in 2000 she promised to focus on homelessness and mental illness, issues she's been involved in for over twenty years.

Tipper Gore currently serves as the Honorary Chair of the National Mental Health Awareness Campaign. She served as Mental Health Policy Advisor to President Clinton. In June of 1999, she chaired the first ever White House Conference on Mental Health that addressed stigma, discrimination and parity in mental health care. In 1990, Mrs. Gore founded Tennessee Voices for Children, a coalition to promote the development of services for children and youth with behavioral, emotional, substance abuse, or other mental health problems. She also served as co-chair of the Child Mental Health Interest Group, a non-partisan group of Congressional and Administration spouses.

As Special Advisor to the Interagency Council on the Homeless during the Clinton Administration, Mrs. Gore worked continuously to raise public awareness of homeless issues and to improve the effective delivery of federal homeless assistance resources and program coordination at the state and local level. She experienced great success with her efforts as co-founder and chair of Families for the Homeless, a non-partisan partnership of families. She partnered with the National Alliance for the Homeless to co-author The Way Home: Ending Homelessness in America, a collection of photography by Mrs. Gore and other prominent photographers focusing on solutions to end the problem of homelessness.

[sendero]

15. That's pretty much..

.... what I believed and thanks for a comprehensive view.

[chenGOD]

20. umm sorry, but Jello Biafra is no shill for the mainstream media.

"The folks who opposed the warning label system claimed that it would reduce the income of musicians."

Yeah, Jello Biafra was really concerned about his multi-million dollar salary being hurt.

Where do you draw the line?

[AlGore-08.com]

28. Politics makes strange bedfellows - - as does commerce

You cannot be a professional musician, actor, writer, whatever, without working for major coorporations. And their interests become your interests. It's unavoidable, because they control every means of distribution, every means of making a living.

The only way Jello Biafra (or any other musician) can avoid it is to never turn pro.

[chenGOD]

18. who determines what is explicit and what is not?

That is the issue.

Where does a song like "Hey Joe" get classified?

How about Salt'n'Peppa's "Let's talk about sex" (which was promoting safe sex)?

Is the insertion of the word "masturbation" obscene?

[sendero]

22. Well...

... "explicit" and "obscene" are two very different things. Nobody claims that anything with this label is "obscene".

[chenGOD]

23. Ok..what's explicit then?

Is "Hey Joe" explicit?

Hey joe, where you goin’ with that gun of your hand
Hey joe, I said where you goin’ with that gun in your hand, oh
I’m goin’ down to shoot my old lady
You know I caught her messin’ ’round with another man
Yeah, I’m goin’ down to shoot my old lady
You know I caught her messin’ ’round with another man
Huh! and that ain’t cool
Huh hey hoe, I heard you shot your mamma down
You shot her down now
Hey joe, I heard you shot your lady down
You shot her down in the groud yeah!
Yeah!
Yes, I did, I shot her
You know I caught her messin’ round messin’ round town
Huh, yes I did I shot her
You know I caught my old lady messin’ ’round town
And I gave her the gun
And I shot her
Alright
Shoot her one more time again baby!
Yeah!
Oh dig it
Oh alright
Hey joe,
Where you gonna run to now where you gonna go
Hey joe, I said
Where you gonna run to now where you gonna go
I’m goin’ way down south
Way down to mexico way
Alright
I’m goin’ way down south
Way down where I can be free
Ain’t no one gonna find me
Ain’t no hang-man gonna
He ain’t gonna put a rope around me
You better believe it right now
I gotta go now
Hey, joe
You better run on down
Goodbye everybody
Hey hey joe



What about "Murder she Wrote"?

Now dis one dedicated to the girls
Dem wid di angel face and the devil heart
Yuh no say Ragamuffin Chaka Demus an youth called Pliers
Come to deal with your case
Step up my youth - Hear dis!

I know this little girl, her name is Maxine
Her beauty is like a bunch of rose
If I ever tell you bout Maxine
You would a say I don't know what I know (but)

Murder she wrote (fi real fi real)
Murder she wrote
Murder she wrote
Murder she wrote

Watch ya now, it name
A pretty face and bad character
Dem the kinda livin can't hold Chaka (follow me!)
A pretty face and bad character
Dem the kinda livin can't hold Chaka
Seh gal yuh pretty
Yuh face it pretty
But yuh character dirty
Gal yuh just act too flirty flirty
Yuh run to Tom, Dick, an also Harry
An when yuh find yuh mistake
Yuh talk bout yuh sorry, sorry, sorry (Come now!)

Have her (cruise?) di corner where she jooks an where she jam
She know about Lou, Crack an every money man
Me talk about coolie chiney, White Man and Indian
Di wickedest kind a girl whey Mr. Pliers buk upon

Now when yuh heard about this girl, her name is Maxine
Her beauty is like a bunch of rose (But)
If I ever tell you bout Maxine
You would a say I don't know what I know (but)

Murder she wrote (Murderation man)
Murder she wrote
Murder she wrote (Na na na)
Murder she wrote

Watch yuh now stand still
Yuh no pay me light bill
If yuh tes di ragamuffin
Gal ya gwan get kill
Gal keep 'way
Caw yuh a crebbie crebbie
An di limits of me talk of if a DJ
Gal come out
Becaw yuh nuh shockout
Now when yuh hear di ragamuffin
Yuh haffi jump and shout
Now touch me gate
Yuh nuh pay mi water rate
Becaw great is great, yuh cyaan underate (Follow me!)

Yuh pretty face an bad character
Dem the kinda livin can Hold Chaka (Follow me!)
Yuh pretty face an bad character
Dem the kinda livin can Hold Chaka

Seh girl yuh pretty
Yuh face is pretty
But yuh character dirty
Gal yuh just a have to
Flirty flirty
Yuh run to Tom Dick,
An also Harry
An when yuh find yuh mistake
Yuh talk bout yuh sorry
Sorry, sorry

Now every middle of the year dis girl go have abortion
Fi di coolie white Man, Indian no seek inna ((nail fun?))
An jus di other day me see her six months pregnant
Now she up an switch her girl with other baby inna pram

So yuh heard about this girl her name is Maxine
Her beauty's like a bunch of rose
An' if I ever tell you bout Maxine
You would a say I don't know what I know (but)

Murder she wrote
Murder she wrote
Murder she wrote (Na nana)
Murder she wrote

Excuse me!
Gal me never know yuh a so yuh stay
Ragamuffin Chaka Demus com fi flash it same way
Waoh woa (Follow me!)

Yuh pretty face an bad character
Dem the kinda livin can Hold Chaka (Follow me!)
Yuh pretty face an bad character
Dem the kinda livin can Hold Chaka

Seh girl yuh pretty
Yuh face is pretty
But yuh character dirty
Gal yuh just a have to
Flirty flirty
Yuh run to Tom, Dick
An also Harry
An when yuh plan yuh mischeif
Yuh talk bout yuh sorry
Sorry, sorry
Di gal a pose an' a brag how she look sexy
All she worship is pure vanity
Di gal a pose anna brag how she look ready
When she wash her clothes it dirty
Gal yuh no ready
If yuh cyaan cook fi mi
Gal yuh no ready
If yuh cyaan wash fi mi
Gal yuh nuh ready
If yuh know yuh flirty flirty (Follow me!)

Yuh pretty face and bad character
Dem the kinda livin can't hold Chaka (Follow me now)
Yuh pretty face an bad character (Murder she wrote)
Dem the kinda livin can't (Murder she wrote) hold Chaka

So stand still (Murder she wrote Na nana)
Yuh no pay me light bill
An if yuh tes di ragamuffin (Murder she wrote)
Gal ya gwan get kill
Gal keep 'way
Caw yuh ahaffi back way
An di ((limit see me talk)) of him a DJ
Gal come out Becaw yuh nuh shockout
Now when yuh hear di ragamuffin
Yuh haffi jump and shout
Now touch me ((gate?))
Yuh nuh pay mi water rate
Becaw great is great is yuh gong fi di rate (Come down)

Now yuh heard about this little girl her name is Maxine
Her face is like a bunch of rose
Man a if I ever tell you bout Maxine
You would a say I don't know what I know


sooo?

[sendero]

24. I'm not going to play...

... semantic games. Just like refereeing a basketball or football game, there are judgement calls made. Sometimes, a CD might get the label "undeservedly", other times, one that deserves it doesn't get it.

The only alternative is to do nothing. That won't work in sports, and it won't work here either. Parents have the right to be able to have SOME INDICATION before buying a CD whether or not there is explicit material on it.

This is one of the few times I disagreed with Frank Zappa.

[IronLionZion]

11. OK

1. She would be a wonderful first lady, and was a wonderful second lady
2. :loveya: of course she's cute
3. She is very perky, even if she makes him look more robotic.
4. She's Al Gore's wife
5. Mary Elizabeth Gore

[mark414]

25. i think she sucks

that prmc stuff was bullshit

[Blue-Jay]

26. Answers.

1. Yes, but ONLY because I think her husband would make a fine president.
2. No.
3. I dunno. Maybe she's good in the sack.
4. Not much.
5. Don't care.