Why the fuck do I always attract girls with low self esteem?!?!

[JohnnyCougar]

I used to be the typical "guy that wants to save the poor lost girl" person, and I always fell in love with innocent yet insecure girls. After about three trials and errors, I finally got it through my thick skull that girls with low self-esteems don't feel comfortable being loved by anyone, especially by someone who is kind and supportive to them. So I learned my lesson.

Then I meet this apparently mature, very smart girl, she graduated college, has her shit together, etc... Still, she was the emotionally reserved type. We actually agreed to be friends, and we became very good friends over the last year an a half. We were never going to have a romantic relationship because our futures wouldn't allow that, as we were both moving to different cities (and I don't really think she was ready for one). I really loved her deeply, though. She was probably the most sensitive, caring person I ever got to know. I found out later that she was abused as a child, her mom was never there for her, etc... She never had any really close friends from her childhood or even adolescence that she could count on for support, as far as I knew. So I gave her a letter that said she was a good friend, and that I loved her very much, that she was a beautiful person, and that I hoped we could still be friends even though we would be in different cities.

But now she won't even talk to me. I called her a couple of times, and I haven't really spoken with her for a month. Then, she finally e-mailed me. I found out this stupid meddling bitch of a girl (one of her friends) told her that I was obsessed with her and she needed to "force me to get over her." This friend told her that she was "preventing me from having a productive relationship from someone else" which was a total lie. She told me I make her feel guilty for leading me on, and that she doesn't want to talk to me.

So now, she is letting guilt and shame control her like a person with low self esteem would. She said she feels like a bitch. I'm guessing she doesn't want to talk to me because of the guilt she feels that has been created by this phantom situation her friend put in her head. Needless to say, yesterday was the day she moved away for good. I'm sure the letter had something to do with it, too. I never said anything about trying to start a romantic relationship with her, but who knows how she interpreted it.

I feel like Oedipus Rex. No matter how hard I try, I can't avoid my fate of loving unlovable girls. I knew I would never be able to have a romantic relationship with this girl, but I loved her anyways, and it crushes me to think that she won't talk to me. I don't know if I'll ever speak to her again. I wrote her an e-mail trying to straighten everything out, but that was over a week ago. It continues to bother me. I know she really used to care about me. A month ago, we were best friends. In the process of 30 days, everything has been turned upside-down. This sucks, I don't know who to blame, and I'm just trying to forget about it. She should be smarter than to listen to this idiot friend of hers, but then again, she has been friends with her for a while, and she is vulnerable. I don't know whether to blame her or her friend, or me for even caring about her in the first place. I had a deep friendship with this girl, but it wasn't like she was my romantic interest. I just get very emotional about friends, too.

I'm glad school has started and I have that to focus on, and I'm sure I'll be over this in another week or two. I just feel like shit now.

[BikeWriter]

1. Women! If you ever think you understand one you're done for!

Signed:
A battered veteran of the battle of the sexes.

[tavalon]

3. Actually, that goes for believing you can understand

any other person other than yourself. You can get some big clues but you only get to see the inner landscape of one.

[BikeWriter]

5. That may be true. Everyone's reality is different. :-(

[tavalon]

2. I have the reason for you but

it will take a lot of work for you to no longer attract these girls. A lot of work (on average 3-5 years of intense work).

You, my friend, are the common denominator. You need to do your psychological work around your source relationships (read - parental units and siblings), and what gain (perceived or real) attracting these girls has for you. You also need to look at what attracts you to them - it isn't a one way street.

So basically, I'm saying you have to look within since you write the script, you cast the characters and you are the director. It is never, ever about the other, they just make willing actors while they are casting you in their play.

You are in no way unique in creating this sort of stuff. Everyone does it. A few of us are lucky enough or smart enough or get hurt enough to finally start doing the work. It took me a solid five years to start attracting a different kind of partner and even now, almost ten years into my recovery, I can still get worked up over the old kind of partner - it's just that now I know to walk away before it gets going and with each walking away, it gets easier.

You mention school so possibly you are very young. If you are and if you start your work now, you will be ahead of 95% of people your age. I didn't start until I hit my thirties or rather they hit me with the force of a tsunami.

[paula777]

14. How exactly did you start attracting a different type of partner?

What sort of methods did you use? I can see walking away from someone once they exhibit behavior that you don't like, but that usually happens once your in too deep. For me anyway

[tavalon]

92. You start your recovery

How you do that is different for everyone. I did it through CoDA, reading and parroting a thousand self help books and 7 or so years of therapy, individual and group. In other words it has nothing to do with the other. Eventually you have to learn how to deal with the other with respect to yourself but really, that isn't the base work.

[roenyc]

4. cause they are easy.

[MsAnthropy]

6. BINGO!

Most men are too lazy to do the hard work of relating to a strong woman.

[JohnnyCougar]

22. Hey...if I could find a strong woman, I would definitely relate to her

I really have a lot of confidence in myself. I didn't used to, but over the last 3 years or so, it's been growing quickly. I was friends with this girl because she was absolutely brilliant, she appeared to have high standards, she had a great, loving heart, etc...

I thought to myself "this girl has everything, she's got to think highly of herself." I didn't find till later that she was abused as a child, etc... I guess even if you have evrything, you can still be troubled and such.

I guess I just need better analysis skills or something. Girls that are hard to get close to are not necesarrily better when you do get close to them.

[Freebird12004]

66. We are out here ~ so keep on looking !

cause I'm a strong woman looking for an equal.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. That's an unfair generalization and there is nothing easy about

sticking with people with deep seated emotional problems.

[redqueen]

45. Is low self esteem really a deep seated emotional problem?

I know I personally have bouts with it, but I don't consider it a deep seated emotional problem.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Heck it's probably one of the MOST deep seated since it is rooted

in childhood experiences and directly relates to parenting relationships, schoolyard incidents, or adolescent issues

[redqueen]

49. I see what you're saying.

But it seemed to me as if you were putting it on par with dissociative disorders, psychosis, etc.

I think everyone has self-esteem issues at some point, some more than others.

[bobbobbins]

7. Obviously because they have lower standards

[sniffa]

8. they're easier for you to manipuLate

there were better answers before me.

[bleedingheart]

9. still water runs deep...

and sometimes those who appear to have problems are manipulating others....

[leftofthedial]

10. quit thinking about it

bang 'em and dump 'em

get a beer and watch a football game with a couple of buddies

women don't know what the hell they want either and 99% of them are destined to be miserable no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is to avoid letting them suck you into the abyss with them.

Sincerely,

The Former Romantic Who Just Had His Heart Ripped Out,

leftofthedial

[redqueen]

16. This kinda shit pisses me right off.

Whatever... as long as you're honest with them and let them know you have absolutely ZERO interest in anything but sex, fine... have at it.

However, if you're not being honest you are ... fuck it I don't want this message deleted.

[leftofthedial]

56. I mean except for the ones who are great

Sorry, redqueen, I'm really not that big of a jerk

[bearfan454]

23. Come on leftofthedial

You don't really mean that do you ? Everyone has feelings that can get hurt as you are finding out.

[leftofthedial]

57. some of my favorite people are women

post #10 was just a spasm

yeah, a spasm

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. I feel like Agent Smith here.

Full of me's all around. :(

[leftofthedial]

58. I'm not a big fan of the species at the moment

as far as "romance" goes.

Friendship? Sex? Conversation? Everyone is different.

Relationships? Get a dog.

[merh]

60. Gee, couldn't tell

"The Former Romantic Who Just Had His Heart Ripped Out"

Sorry you are still in such pain. :hug:

[leftofthedial]

71. thanks

I must have crossed over into the "anger" phase last night.

After 30 years together, it's more like a death than a breakup.

[merh]

76. Most definitely, it is a death, you have lost a part of you!

My prayers go out that you find comfort. As deeply as you are wounded by this, I know that you loved very deeply. :hug:

[Hand]

11. Insh'Allah... nt

[MsAnthropy]

27. What does this mean?

[Hand]

36. "Allah wills it..."

As in "Allah wills that you will always attract women of low self-esteem".

See also "Sin Loi" (Vietnamese), "Nitchevo" (Russian), "Shigata ga nai" (Japanese) "Them's the breaks" and/or "Tough shit" (English), and similar variants in every other language, I would imagine.

[MsAnthropy]

38. Thanks! That clears that up. I just may have to steal those.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. It's "shikata ga nai"

:-)

[Hand]

69. Actually, it's either...

If you google either rendition, you'll get a ton of references in both cases. Um... except that "shigata ga nai" has about three times as many.

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Sorry, Hand, it IS "shikata ga nai" in standard Japanese

It literally means "there's no way to do it," and the -kata endings are a regular verb formation, as in kakikata "way to write it" or tsukurikata "way to make it."

"Shigata ga nai" is Northern rural dialect (or, evidently, judging from the Google citations, James Clavell Japanese or anime fan Japanese). :-)

[Hand]

84. AH HA!!!

That might account for it... my grandparents were from Nortern Japan and that's how they always pronounced it. Of course, they were also late Meiji era, so heaven knows what interesting form of the language they used after many years in the US.

ON EDIT: Hey! I think we've hijacked this thread!
}(

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Okay, and to hijack it further, did you know that

the way to say "Shikata ga nai" in Chinese is meiyou fazi? It's pronounced "may-yoh fah-dzuh." :-)

[CJCRANE]

103. It means "God willing"...

which is slightly different to "God will's it".

"Insh'allah" is more equivalent to "touch wood".
E.g. you could say "see you soon, insh'allah". It's a phrase about hoping something will happen in the future.

I'm sure there is a more fatalistic phrase which means "it is God's will" but I don't think "insh'allah" is it (I may be wrong but I've lived in a muslim country, and that's my understanding of it).

[regularguy]

12. Because people with high self esteem are really annoying?

[Lex]

13. The question should be: why are YOU attracted to girls with low

self esteem, not why are THEY attracted to you.


Start from that perspective and see if you can come up with some answers.

[JohnnyCougar]

17. I'm really not anymore....I really thought this girl was better...

The porblem is that I don't meet many girls with high self-esteem period. I got to be friends with her because I thought she was better than everyone else.

Believe me, I would go after a girl with high self-esteem if I found one. I learned from my mistakes before.

I dunno, I thought this girl was so cool....she graduated college, she was a Kerry staffer, she was intrinsically motivated...I know she was really depressed after Kerry lost. Everything just started to break down from there.

[merh]

64. Strong women or women with "high self esteem" are often just

as wounded as women with low self esteem. They over compensate for their feelings of low self esteem or for their deep emotional wounds by being so strong and self-reliant. Once the walls are up, it is very hard to bring them down, its just safer behind the walls. She has been deeply wounded, that is why she has totally broken off communications with you, she doesn't want to hurt you the way she has been hurt in the past.

You need to try to decide why you are attracted to relationships that won't work. What walls do you have up that cause you to get into relationships that won't work?

And, finally, Que Sera Sera, what will be, will be. Recognize your own failings but also celebrate that you can love, as is apparent from the deep wounds left by the failure of your relationships. It is true that it is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved before. There are many out there who have no idea how to love and are in relationships that may last forever, but are empty and lonely. What fate is worst, being alone until the right person comes along, or being in a relationship with the wrong person and being very lonely and empty?
You, my friend, should find comfort in knowing that you can love and should live your life rejoicing in that love and by simply loving. The other will work out.

[JohnnyCougar]

74. Thanks...I think that's the best advice I ahve gotten so far.

Not that I don't deeply appreciate all others' advice, as well.

Thanks DU.

I guess I just have to keep trying to improve myself. The better I am, the better I will be for the person that eventually falls in love with me.

[merh]

75. The beauty of the message of Christ that so many miss

Love thy brother as they self - to love an other, we must love ourself.
Good luck!

We are all works in process, when we forget that, we have the most problems and we cause the most pain. :hug:

[Aiptasia]

15. Because girls with self esteem wouldn't have anything to do with you?

Just a wild guess.

[JohnnyCougar]

32. That's wrong...I am a great person.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm me.

[NewJeffCT]

18. Unfortunately

I've found a lot of intelligent women in their 20s seem to have self esteem issues. I think it's the way society is - women get a lot of mixed messages and it takes them time to sort through the noise. And, us guys don't really help, either.

I'd first start with what was suggested above - why are you attracted to low self-esteem women? See if you can come up with your answer that way.

[Worst Username Ever]

19. My past 4 relationships have been with women who have been raped.

(in the past, not by me. Sheesh.) I can almost call it. I'll start dating someone, then 3 months later, they'll sit me down to share something that is very important and that I should know about. Seriously, it isn't even shocking, I just nod my head and ask if they want to talk about it and tell them that I am here if they ever want to talk, but it doesn't phase me in the least. Why are they drawn to me, or worse, am I drawn to them?

[bobbobbins]

20. Yup, i've gone through that too

I'm like a magnet, they're mysteriously drawn to me.

[redqueen]

21. What are the statistics on how many women have been molested or raped?

It's not that uncommon.

This thread really pisses me off.

[Worst Username Ever]

26. Statistically a lot more common than reported, but

4 out of the past 4 is a little higher than the national average, I am thinking. Considering I have only had 5 serious relationships.... Coincidence?

[MountainLaurel]

40. 1 out of 4

And I can't remember if that statistic is for rapes reported, or overall. Of those, about two-thirds are younger than 18, and half of those are younger than 12.

Frighteningly, out of the four women in my coven, I'm the only non-trauma survivor (one was raped by an uncle, one was raped, beaten, and left for dead by an ex-BF, and the other was essentially mind-fucked and physically tortured by her BF).

[JohnnyCougar]

25. Exactly...It's not like I TRY to find girls with low self-esteem anymore

The last two I fell in love with were super-intelligent, seemed to have their life together. And then....BAM! You realize that even beautiful, intelligent girls can be really insecure.

It's sad.

I am young...I'm only 24. Maybe it just takes a little longer for girls to mature.

Now that I think about it, a lot of my friends (guy and girl) have low self esteem. Not my old grade school friends, but the ones I have meet in the last 10 years. Perhaps I just a positive, supporting person, ond people with low self-esteem feel comfortable around me.

[Worst Username Ever]

29. Nah, they mature faster than us.

physically and emotionally. It's gotta be something else.

[amazona]

48. it is probably just coincidence

The rate of rape is very high in this society, and it may be especially high in your area or age group for reasons you have no control over.

I went to high school in the 70s. Every girl I knew well enough to talk about it with was raped at some point. (Hell, some I shouldn't have known that well would talk about it, because we were just coming into the awareness of how much we were sexually exploited as girls.) You wouldn't assume that a man who dated one of us was a damaged man who only attracted women who had been violated. You would just assume he was a man who happened to live in that time and place, where rape (especially acquaintance rape) was just beginning to be discussed as a huge issue so that girls and women were finding out how common it was and who the trouble-makers were.

I don't think you are necessarily doing anything "wrong." Indeed, it may be a compliment to you that your girlfriends feel comfortable enough with you to discuss the matter with you. I think lots and lots of men are in relation with or even married to women, and they have no idea that rape or abuse is in their background.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Worst Username Ever]

55. I'd like to think the later, of course.

But you have a valid point, it is just really prevalent in our society. I try not to over think it.

Your sig line is friggin scary, BTW. Have they ALWAYS been this way?

[THUNDER HANDS]

73. I used to think all women were weird

then I had it confirmed. :evilgrin:

[sendero]

24. I could never...

... say everything I've learned (the hard way) in 50 years of life about women (I'd get run off of DU :)) - but I will say this.

Why get hung up on a woman you can't be with? That is the crux of your current heartbreak, and frankly, I think SHE is doing the right thing.

You will never be satisfied with "friendship" and neither will she. Eventually, one of you will find a partner and the hurt will be that much more intense. Why not just head off the pain now? Please, I'm a guy - don't give me the "all I wanted was friends" rap, I'm not buying it :) You may be telling yourself that, but deep down your self ain't buying it. That's why this is so tough.

As for the kind of women that are attracted to you, another poster already made the salient point, why are you attracted to them?

->->-> words bordering on newage follow, WARNING!

You will learn something from each relationship that prepares you for a future one. That is the whole game. You have to pay tuition until you have acquired enough wisdom not to get burned. You'll get there, if I can, anyone can :)

[JohnnyCougar]

30. I don't know about that relationship thing...

If she found someone else, that really wouldn't bother me, as long as he was decent. Remember, I always knew we would be moving away from each other. I guess I'd just like to see her succeed no matter what she does.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just lying to myself.

[bleedingheart]

35. good advice

each jerk I dated helped me break free of the jerks I met in the future...successively I managed to find less jerky guys and eventually the men I dated up until I got married were all quite nice and I married the keeper...

The key is to learn from relationships not fall into bad habits..both your own and others...

[kiraboo]

28. Oh My God. This thread is full of shit!

Although I will agree that the common denominator has to be you! Look, you are, not picking, but sticking with, the wrong women for some reason which benefits you. When we make our initial choice, things look rosy. But only a blind person doesn't pick up on cues dropped by our SO which let us know pretty clearly how a relationship will progress. Your longtime friend whom you now love... I'm betting you were attracted to her from the getgo. And she wasn't attracted to you. You knew this, but liked the delusion that things would change. Whatever you do, don't blame the girl... and consider that her "meddling friend" probably has a point. I know I sound harsh, but I've been on both sides of the dump more times than I can count on both fingers and toes. BTW, once I stopped hanging onto guys who I didn't want, or who I knew didn't want me, I married. The very next guy, once I made the decision not to waste my time. You can do the same. P.S. I mean this all v. kindly!

[JohnnyCougar]

31. Well actually...

She sort of initaited the relationship. We were friends for nearly a year before I ever really started to love her. She would call me most of the time. I briefly dated a couple of other girls, and had my fun during this time span. I really wasn't interested in her as a partner. Over time, though, she did so many nice thigs for me that I really started to love her. I knew she loved me probably before I loved her. She started with the "I love yous" well before I was comfortable saying it back.

I know what perspective you are coming from, though. I have been in that situation before. But this was not it.

When she was "loving" me and I wasn't really interested, the friendship was fine. As soon as I started to love her back, though, it slowly went sour. My guess is that she is used to one-way love relationships in which she isn't used to getting much back. Perhaps someone returning the love makes her uncomfortable.

[alittlelark]

97. see post # 96.

[EC]

34. We always seem to make the same mistakes....

usually the characterists that draw us to someone turn out to be the nemisises to healthy relationships...like I always liked guys with a bit of an "edge" to them, why? Because I figure they'll accept my vices...so rather what I'm saying...is look into yourself and see why you are attracted to a certain "type"

[okieinpain]

37. A little advise, quit acting like you care, women hate nice guy's

they are all into the rough guy deal. you don't have to be mean, but you have act like they are on a time limit. example you're out on a date, just start looking at your watch, after a while she will ask why you're looking at your watch. tell her you're waiting on her to get to the point.

another thing women like is for you to do is check out other women, they all complain that they don't like that stuff, but the minute you act like you could care less, they are all over you.

and before any of you sister du'ers go on a rampage, I had one female tell me to my face that I was tooooooo nice. and another one said I was gay because I wasn't hitting on any of the women at work. even though everybody knew I was married, and I had on a wedding band.

Go figure.

[redqueen]

39. Well of course!

opinions from a couple of women = what all women think

Good God.

[okieinpain]

89. it's true, it's true. and when I say nice guy's I don't mean wimps

just nice guy's, women call them boring. come on you know you've done it. that's why my wife married me, I was a safe bad boy. even comic's joke about this topic. women like bad boys.

sorry. but it's true.

[Pithlet]

43. Because a couple of females told you

it must be true!

Did it ever occur to you that your trouble might not have been that you were too nice? I don't know you. But this post seems awfully bitter and hateful towards women. The type of person that isn't into "nice" people probably doesn't care about misogynist attitudes, either.

My advice to men who think this way would not be to stop being nice, but to stop viewing "females" the way they do. They may be shocked to find that their luck turns around.

[okieinpain]

87. nope don't hate women, I just stay out of the way. I know a bunch

of guys, white, black, old, young, doing pretty good, some making ends meet. all nice guy's and all have the same story with females. hey even my wife half way agrees with me.

females like the bad boys.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. All that proves is that you work with a couple of psycho shrews

I've dated guys whom I thought were "too nice," and what I meant was that they were too passive and unwilling to express an opinion. Remember that scene in Coming to America, in which Eddie Murphy is presented with a potential bride whose answer to everything is, "Whatever you want"?

Being in a relationship with such a person is like playing squash against the side of a tent.

I don't want an abuser or a guy who puts on a callous act, like you suggest, but I don't want a doormat either.

[sandnsea]

65. It's phony, that's why

It feels manipulative when a guy is overly attentive. And it probably is. You don't know who the real guy is, underneath it all. And you figure if he has to shower you with phone calls, flowers, and gifts, he must be covering up a pretty awful personality. And he usually is. And it's borderline possessive, which sends up all those abuser red flags. There's legitimate reasons women don't like those "nice guys", it's because they aren't.

And you're absolutely right about the psycho shrews, they're women with low self-esteem who don't understand why they always end up with jerks, so they just pretend every woman wants a jerk.

[JohnnyCougar]

80. I wouldn't call myself one of those guys.

Actually, I have a badass streak in me. I have an opinion about everything, I break the law repeatedly, I speed, I have a fast car, I fight if I have to. I've stood up to entire groups of guys that wanted to fight me at bars, basically because they were hitting on non-intimate female friends I was with. I would fight to the death for what I believe in if I thought it was worth it.

I just also happen to really love my friends. Love isn't a weak thing, it's a strong feeling that conquers everything, including hate and fear.

[okieinpain]

86. I know it's sounds mean, but it's true. females like those bad boys

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. "Females" who have their heads on straight know that the "bad boys"

are more trouble than they're worth.

Some of us NEVER liked the "bad boys," not even as teenagers.

I could equally go on about how ALL males like the psycho shrews, because I've seen plenty of examples of males who were hopelessly besotted with women who tore their hearts to shreds.

Don't use your own stubborn misconceptions about female psychology as an excuse for treating women badly.

[okieinpain]

91. yes, that's true too. I know some of those. but I know a lot more

females that are really attracted to those boy's with the rough edges.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. How old are these "females" you're talking about? 16?

The "bad boys" may have a certain raffish charm, but an emotionally adult woman doesn't want to be mistreated and doesn't want to be burdened with a deadbeat, no matter how charming.

No matter how superficially attractive a "bad boy" is, we know how to tell the difference between fantasy and real life.

If good men are having trouble attracting women, here are a couple of possible reasons:

1) They're boring. I don't mean they're not bad boys--I mean that they're boring in the sense of being stuck in a routine, having nothing to talk about other than work and sports, and being unwilling to go outside their comfort zone in terms of either experiences or ideas.

In the old days, most women could not survive economically without a husband, and the dull guy was considered a "good catch" if he had a steady job and wasn't abusive. These days, the only reason to get married or even be in a relationship is to have someone to share your life with, and the old-fashioned marriage between the hausfrau and the dull guy was tolerable only because men and women lived largely separate lives.

2) They're too passive, almost passive-aggressive. It's as if they've heard the message "Don't be overbearing" and have perversely taken it to mean, "Be a doormat."

3) They act desperate and try to move toward heavy emotional involvement too fast. I had a stalker during my senior year in college, and the sight of a desperate man sets off my stalkder-avoidance instincts.

4) They're immature and gravitate toward the "bad girls," somehow confusing the temperamental pscyo shrew personality with sexiness, as if having a hot temper is the same as being hot in bed. I've seen nice men suffer incredibly bad, even publicly humiliating, treatment at the hands of psycho shrews and go back for more.

5) They have a Sir Galahad concept and are attracted only to women who need "rescuing." Unfortunately, the women who need rescuing are the same ones who are too screwed up to be attracted to anything but "bad boys." Then Sir Galahad runs whining to the Lounge and complains that "women want to be treated like shit."

But I won't convince you with facts. You've got your head made up.

[okieinpain]

102. nope grown women 8 to 80. as an example my own mother left

my father for my step-father (bad boy). she cheated on my father, but never the bad boy, go figure. I know female after female, from all backgrounds that have this same problem.

I understand that what I'm saying sounds bad, and that there is no group that is all the same. but even my wife admits that women in general to a lessor or greater extent like the bad boys.

:~)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Maybe you are just a "healing" kind of guy

While you are hurting, your relationship with her may very well have served her to break a pattern.

If I were in your shoes, I might look at whether or not "rescuing people" is a routine or trap I regularly fall into...simply to process it for myself...but when push comes to shove...we are all damaged goods...even those that think they are not

[amazona]

44. everybody has low self esteem

Don't worry so much. This society programs people to have low self esteem. Especially women. There are lots of great people, including lots of great women, with low self esteem. Indeed, while I have known very few people with high self esteem, I have to acknowledge that those people I have met with high self esteem are generally quite unpleasant, if not downright sociopathic.

We live in a quite violent society with many challenges to our ego. The normal person is going to be bruised somewhere. So you are not weird because you happen to "attract" girls who have been abused, feel bad or guilty about something, blah de blah. Every normal person has those types of feelings sometimes. You are normal. Misunderstandings happen all the time in the course of a normal life. It doesn't signify any more than it does.

Have a virtual beer and stop blaming yourself. "I'm just trying to forget about it," you say, and that is probably actually the best thing to do.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[redqueen]

47. Everyone has deep seated emotional problems?

This place is driving me nuts.

[amazona]

52. is low self esteem a deep seated emotional problem?

I tend to doubt it. I have low self esteem and I don't find it a particular problem at all. I just ignore it most of the time. I don't think I would be a better person if I had high self esteem and raging self confidence. I mean, sure, it would be nice to be able to get a job in sales, but other than that, what is so great about high self esteem? It gives a person a pushy, unpleasant aura (if you are susceptible to such things as auras) and it gives the person with high self esteem a very unreal perspective on their place in the universe.

The fact is the world is a big place and one small human person is just one small human person. To be cognizant of that fact is not a deep seated emotional problem. There are hucksters who promise to raise self esteem (which can't be done) so they profit by defining low self esteem as a problem. Doesn't make it so.

Many of the great deeds of the world, good as well as bad, have been accomplished by people of very low self esteem seeking to fill that hole with accomplishment after accomplishment. The world would not be a better place if those people had high self esteem and were content to hawk Toyotas at the local used car mart.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[redqueen]

53. I don't think it is, no.

We're pretty much on the same wavelength here.

[regularguy]

54. Fantastic post!

My thought exactly. Well, not exactly. More like my thoughts turned into readable english.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. The more I know people

the more I suspect this may be the EXACT truth.

[progmom]

72. i love your avatar

apropos of nothing...


:)

[redqueen]

83. Well thank you!

I must admit I stole it from someone on another forum. I liked it that much! :D

[Squatch]

50. Are you attracting them or are they attracting you???

[JohnnyCougar]

82. Both, I'm sure.

I am a really good friend, and by saying that I mean really good. Perhaps people with low self esteem see that the only thing I really judge people on (friendwise) is their hearts.

[JVS]

51. Steer clear of them and you'll be better off

[MISSDem]

59. Probably all women are insecure. I mean look at

the world we have to live in. It's pretty hard to buck up to the advertising, the family pressure, the job pressure, on and on and on.

[MissB]

77. Wugh. Just wugh. (nt)

[Nikia]

67. A couple different things

Many, if not most, decent people have self esteem problems. The fact that she is emotionally reserved in general, but shared her feelings and problems with you shows that she trusted you quite a bit. The same is true of your previous girlfriends with low self esteem. Some women are good about putting on an act and never let anyone, especially not a man, know how they really feel and their problems. These are the women that you should worry about getting into a long term relationship with. I also think that the problems that your friend experienced are not that uncommon either.
As far as her behavior, she probably does care about you a lot. She thought that you didn't care about her in a romantic way. That's why it was safe for her to pursue a friendship, which could never be a romance, with a man who she liked romanitcally. Now she finds out, taking your letter in light of her friends comments, that you actually felt the same way. She had accepted that you two could not be together for the duration of your friendship, but perhaps thinks that you haven't. While I was single, I had had friendships with men in committed relationships who I liked romanitcally, but accepted friendship as the best possible relationship that I could have with them. Fair or not, I probably would have freaked out if they broke up with their girlfriends or divorced their wives because it turned out that they liked me too. Maybe this isn't the same thing, maybe it is. She cares about you enough that she wants you to be happy and not to avoid dating others for her. Sorry to impose myself into this, but it is a point of view.
I would give it a little of time and then contact her, preferably by phone, if you can't see her in person. Apologize for the misunderstanding and tell her that you do really enjoy friendship and that won't change whether or not either of you see other people seriously.

[jswordy]

68. I believe your trouble lies in the word "girl," and here is why

What you are actually looking for is a mature woman, not a girl.

When you find a mature woman, you will be happy.

Meantime, it is best to sharpen your antenna so that you can identify the signs within yourself and the signs always given by the girl's behaviors and those of her friends and family that this particular relationship might not be good for you emotionally.

In actuality, you see, it is YOU who have the low self-esteem, since you are placing yourself into situations over and over again in which it is YOU who are getting walked all over.

Bottom line is this: If you want respect, settle for nothing less and take a hike if you don't feel you are getting it. Listen to you own gut, and don't compromise yourself just to hang with or pursue someone else.

You say you loved these girls. I highly doubt it. In actuality, what you were doing was, you were pursuing them and mistaking the feeling generated by that pursuit for love. Because they were never attainable, the feeling became more and more intense the more you were abused.

When you REALLY finally do become in love with someone, you will find that the abovementioned mutual RESPECT is a large bedrock component of it, and that true love cannot exist without that foundation. Without respect, there can be no trust or stability.

Been there, done that several times have the war stories to tell, and STILL wound up in true love with a great woman.

I'm just hoping by writing this, I might flatten your learning curve some. Lots of folks never learn this stuff...ever.

Now, if you both are in a relationship for a brief sexual fling, all bets are off, because stability does not have to be a part of that. I only mention this because it highlights the importance of making sure your partner is on the same emotional page in a relationship as you are. The only way to do that is to communicate and to really hear what is said back to you. And look for the signs. They will be there.

If she's just in it for a fling, and you don't have intentions of a long-term thing, have fun but don't emotionally commit. Or, tell her you want more emotionally and try your luck elsewhere before you get entwined.

Always remember: LOVE and SEX are two entirely different things.

Good luck.

[JohnnyCougar]

78. I never felt like I was abused at all

We were actually really good friends, we had a pretty good symbiotic friendship, she did some of the nicest things a girl has ever done for me.

I know for a fact that I don't have a low self-esteem. I hold my own opinions in high regard, I am not afraid to disagree with an entire group of people even if I am the lone dissenter, I pretty much think I can accomplish anything if I set my mind to it.

I used to be extremely shy around girls and if they tried mentally abusing me, I ended the relationship right away.

This was a healthy friendship, it just completely broke down over the last month. What hurts the most is that it was a good friendship for both of us while it lasted. Obviously, something about that changed. I guess I am just trying to figure out what and why to help ease my mind.

[radwriter0555]

79. You are attracted to THEM. So next time you're attracted to a gal, run

the other way.

And when you find a nice girl that you think you SHOULD be attracted to, but aren't, then make a date with THEM instead.

Then you get used to dating normal people.

[JohnnyCougar]

81. hehe...actually, that's how this friendship started out.

I really wasn't attracted to her at first, but she was a really good friend to me, and she seemed to hold herself in high esteem. Eventually I started to love her and become better friends with her.

It broke down when she found out I loved her back.

[Joe Chi Minh]

85. Somebody mentioned

loving yourself, before you can love others. To some extent that comes with time, when it does come. As you get older you feel more comfortable with yourself and less intimidated by peer-group expectations and what have you.

It sounds as if there may be an element of truth in what that spiteful friend of your girl friend said, insofar as I think you had a false impression of her, in your mind's eye, matching her apparent "foxiness" (for want of a better word) with comparably deep and admirable qualities of character, while she is probably as immature as anyone else of her age. Perhaps more so.

Being uncertain of what you want out of life tends to be a very healthy and useful by-product of a broken home, racial difference, etc, since it makes the individual reflective, whereas people from a secure background tend to be simmply focused on "getting on". But I doubt if a kind of "Hamlet" complex is generally viewed as a gift by partners. Your friend sounds more like a female Hamlet than Ophelia, i.e. a young person who doesn't know what they want.

In ten to twenty years time, in the same circumstance, I would expect you to have a more realistic view of her and of yourself.

I hope this doesn't sound offensive to you. It is certainly not intended to. In fact, if you were older, you might think it as much her loss.

[TufNeck]

88. I hear

they're "easy."

[Swamp Rat]

93. Write a good-bye letter expressing what you've written in this thread,

then move on. After my divorce I treated myself to two weeks in Barcelona culminating in an awesome party - Y2K New Years! Then I decided I loved my freedom so much that I went on numerous excursions throughout Europe, USA, Central America and eventually Brasil where I found my soul mate. :)

Once you go "Brasil" you NEVER go back! Oba!!! :D

PS. I'm serious. GO TO BRASIL!

[JohnnyCougar]

94. I dunno...I'm not sure I should write another letter.

Anything I say to her now will be marginalized in her mind probably. Anything more that I say is a lost cause. She either realizes that she's being disrespecful or she doesn't. If she does, she will contact me. If she doesn't, then she's destined to live in fear. That's fine with me. I really couldn't give two shits right now.

[Swamp Rat]

95. "I really couldn't give two shits right now."

That's a good start! :D

OK, you don't have to write another letter... I don't know what you've already said to her in the other letters, but I was suggesting a final, good-bye letter that says everything you want to say (even if it includes your anger with her meddling friend - believe me, I have experienced this too).

This is for you, not her. Beware though, if you do this, she might respond and want to get back with you... though she probably won't, and that is better for you anyway, IMO.

Life is short, and there's lots of nice girls out there looking for a nice guy like you. :)

[alittlelark]

96. Let this thread sink in.

You let in those whom you invite. Many men who gravitate towards needy/damaged females do so out of an altruistic need - as long as the relationship remains in the same dynamic all is well. If the female gains self-esteem through the relationship (and has demands), there can be problems... that is where you need to determine why you are attracted to them...Scenarios..

Scenario 1 - She makes demands, you flee emotionally
Scenario 2 - She makes demands, you see the growth and are TURNED ON.

Then there is the disintegration scenario (MUCH more difficult)

Scenario 1 - She is getting more needy, demanding, and desperate, and you bolt.
Scenario 2 - She is all of the above and you 'help her through it (no one needs to know)"

In the first set of scenarios, # 2 means you are a whole and loving person, #1 means you are seeking malleable personalities.

In the 2nd set of scenarios #1 shows you to be a healthy, 'danger-aware' person, whereas #2 has you in a co-dependant ( and possibly worse) relationship.

[AlienGirl]

98. Why does everyone think girls with low self-esteem aren't worth dating?

[JohnnyCougar]

101. Because it's impossible to love someone if they don't love themself.

And no matter how hard you try, you can't get someone else to love themself. Even if you really love them, they will be confused as to why you love them, because to the girl with low self-esteem, they are unlovable. And it just sucks tyring to give your love to someone who will rationalize it away and defend her ego from it. When you give your love to someone with low self-esteem, they will not accept it. They will make excuses to themselves as to why the love is not real (eg. "he's too interested in me," "he doesn't really know me," "I can't accept it because I would only hurt him").

And you end up wasting your time.