Who was the better keyboardist,

[Total Mass Retain]

Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson? Is there someone here with musical knowledge who could give an explanatory answer as to their opinion? I won't pick, I like them both for different reasons/sounds/styles,and it's kind of that "I only know what I like" thing with a layperson like me.

[saltpoint]

1. Emerson had the technical mastery over --

-- the keyboard. He was accomplished in all the technique and idioms and interpretation for a classical pianist, then brought that range to rock and it was pretty much explosive.

I like Wakeman's stuff a lot, too, but I always go to Emerson for the fire.

(I'm trained as a classical pianist, but listen to just about anything except polka.)

[Total Mass Retain]

7. That's what I've always heard(read),

that Emerson had the more classically-trained precise technique,though Wakeman was no slouch in that area,and also that Emerson was a consummate showman. But also,that Wakeman integrated his keyboard music into the group sound more than Emerson. If you have time and feel like it,school me. I love learning this stuff,about Emerson's famed "left-hand"(ie,what does that mean? doesn't any keyboardist have to use both hands well? Stupid question,but I don't know). And how in the world did he manage to play a piano while spinning high above the stage while doing so? And "Moog" and "Mellotron"-I love the very sounds of the words.

[saltpoint]

16. Well, honestly it sounds as if you already are --

-- schooled.

I loved your post, by the way. It is a great thought for me after some time without hearing either of those great pianists.

I guess I'm just drawn to Emerson because his technical fire and Greg Lake's haunting melodies (like "Still You Turn Me On") just slay me. I love them.

My guess is your music library is really strong.

Thank you again for this post.

[Total Mass Retain]

19. Me schooled in the techincalities of progressive keyboard-

I wish,but thank you much! I've lurked on some prog newsgroups and that's all I'll ever do,lurk,because I don't have a clue as to what the people there,and they seem to be mostly musicians,are talking about!

I just posted about "Still...You Turn Me On" in the "Yes,Close To The Edge" thread,about it being a love song to a corpse and that's why when people made fun of the line,"someone get me a ladder", it made sense to me,that he needed a ladder to get out of the grave where he was talking to the corpse-but then again,talking about "crystallised flesh" and "glass on the eyes", it could be about computers,like most of Karn Evil 9. I love that album,Brain Salad Surgery. I love ELP's renditions of "Jerusalem" and "Toccatto".

My music library runs from classical rock to bluegrass to old country to classical to...almost anything(don't care for pop or rap or new country). I guess I love prog and bluegrass the most because I'm so impressed by instrumental virtuosity and the talent and hard work and dedication it takes to achieve it.

[saltpoint]

39. What do you think of Emmylou Harris?

I put her very near the top of the list -- maybe because she isn't exactly any one genre. Kind of a delirious mystery blend of bluegrass, folk, country, and who knows what else.

Whatever it is, it knocks me out.

[Total Mass Retain]

55. I love EmmyLou,

I saw her on "Austin City Limits" one time and she was so great. My favorite is "If I Could Only Win Your Love". The only one I didn't care for was that trio thing she did with Dolly Parton and Linda Ronstadt, "Mr Sandman". I just couldn't like it.

[saltpoint]

67. Somehow I knew you might like Emmylou Harris.

I think "Sandman" by those three is ambitious, but it's not my favorite.

Have you heard Emmylou's first album, PIECES OF THE SKY? There's a tune on there that knocks me out -- "Boulder to Birmingham."

Wow. After that song, the woman doesn't owe me another note.

[Dr.Phool]

18. I liked them both equally

But I remember reading an interview with Emerson back in the '70s where he talked about everyone assuming he had all of this classisal training, but in reality, he was taught by a little old lady who played the church organ on Sundays.

But, he was the better showman.

There was another guy who was pretty good too. Can't remember his name, but he played for a group called Curved Air. I keep thinking Eddie Offord, but that don't sound right.

[Total Mass Retain]

22. There's a YES message board somewhere that has a thread about Keith

Emerson,and somewhere in the thread is a great little clip showing him playing piano while spinning up high. I wish i could remember where I saw it. It was so cool.

[Total Mass Retain]

24. I think that Eddie Offord was the producer for most of the classic YES

albums,and so integral a part of their sound that he was considered a member.

[goodboy]

56. eddie offord did produce 311's "Music" and is certainly one of the best

[no name no slogan]

43. Sounds like you're thinking of Eddie Jobson

Eddie was a child prodigy-- he played with Curved Air when he was in his early teens. Keep in mind that Curved Air was little more than a prog-rock Backstreet Boys, though: lots of cute young kids who could play, but not much else.

Eddie later went on to replace Brian Eno in Roxy Music in 1973 at the tender age of 15. After Roxy dissolved for the first time in 1976, he founded the prog-rock group UK with Bill Bruford, Alan Holdsworth and John Wetton (who played bass w/ Roxy Music on several occassions). Additionally, Jobson added violin overdubs on King Crimson's "USA" live album, which was released following their first breakup in 1975.

Bruford and Wetton left UK after one album, and Terry Bozzio (later of Missing Persons) joined on drums, making them a trio. UK put out another studio album and a live album before calling it quits in 1979.

Roxy Music reformed in 1979 without Jobson or Wetton. Wetton teamed up with Steve Howe and Geoff Downes (both ex-Yes) and Carl Palmer to form Asia in 1981. They had several arena-rock hits in the early 80s.

Eddie Jobson was part of an early version of the reformed Yes in 1982, and even appeared briefly in one of their videos before Tony Kaye joined the group. Rumour has it there's even some of his playing on 90125 (the reformed Yes's "first" studio album), but they can't be verified.

Jobson continued solo, making "new age" albums and also scoring soundtracks, most notably for the "Nash Bridges" TV show.

Jobson is a versitile player, especially when you consider that he also played electric violin, too. He's not bad as a songwriter, either, for that matter (just listen to some of the early Roxy albums where his songs appeared for proof).

Hope this helps! :hi:

[tonekat]

47. Eddie Jobson toured w/Zappa too...

he's on the Live in New York album, I was lucky enough to see one of those shows that week. He played elec violin and keys on that tour, Ruth Underwood played keys as well in that rather large band that FZ assembled for that tour.

[no name no slogan]

65. That's right! I forgot that one!

That's probably where he met Terry Bozzio, too, since Bozzio also played w/ Zappa.

[goodboy]

60. ahhhhh...the left hand. While it is true that great pianists are equally

skilled with both hands, there are some out there which just have a little something extra in their left hand. For a great experience, I would recommend a recording of Leon Fleischer playing the Ravel Concerto for Left-Hand. Also on the CD are a few other left-hand only pieces. I learned the Ravel when I was a senior at Interlochen Arts Academy. It took me a year, but considering it's one of the most challenging piano pieces, I'm pretty proud of myself.

[goodboy]

58. how long have you been playing...I've been for 20 years.

[SKKY]

2. Nick Rhodes of Duran Duran...

...just kidding. He was very good though. His work on "The Reflex" practically made that whole song.

[susanna]

9. Now that's interesting,

'cause I thought so too. :-)

[SKKY]

21. Great minds do think alike you know...

[FuzzySlippers]

3. I pick Vladimir Horowitz.

:shrug:

[goodboy]

61. That guy could play 12 distinct volume levels from the same key./

UNreal. I can play maybe 5...6?

[Boswells_Johnson]

4. Jon Lord

He may not be as technical as those guys, but he is quite accomplished on the Hammond, and his use of blues and jazz make him much more "rock n' roll" in my eyes.

[Total Mass Retain]

8. He was with

Deep Purple,is that right?

[Boswells_Johnson]

10. Yes. Now they have Don Airey, who's no slouch either.

[Total Mass Retain]

12. I didn't even know that they still together! n/t

[Boswells_Johnson]

13. Oh yeah! And they rock!

I'm a big fan:)

They played the Montreaux Jazz Fest last year...here's a link if you wanna chek 'em out. There are other bands you can choose, too:

http://www2.bluewin.ch/magazin/index.php/special/montreuxjazz2004/4553

[chicagojoe]

14. Don Airey is a veteran rocker. Played with many acts.

[Boswells_Johnson]

17. I had no idea how strong he was until I heard him in Purple though

I remember him being so restrained in Rainbow.

[chicagojoe]

23. Keys didn't play as large of a role in Rainbows' music as in Purple.

[LandOLincoln]

5. Ray Manzarek. n/t

[susanna]

11. OK, I'll enter the 700 club

on Ray Manzarek. Damn, his stuff was incredible and quite unique for its or any other time. :-)

[LandOLincoln]

27. Yep, but then how many other rock keyboardists

had formal training as classical pianists, yet lost their musical virginity to the great Chicago bluesmen?

If you haven't already, take a look at his autobiography Light My Fire. His descriptions of his teenage experiences in the Chicago blues/jazz clubs are priceless.

[Rocinante]

6. Emerson

Wakeman is great, but as a listener of both for over 30 years I'll go with Emerson.

[Dukkha]

15. Emerson

gotta love a guy who tours with a full size modular Moog synth

[Total Mass Retain]

20. Wasn't Emerson the first guy to use the Moog or something like that-

in fact,if I understood correctly what I've read,he helped develop a couple of features in it?

[EC]

29. No, first was a guy named Walter Carlos

won an emmy for Switched on Bach - then the Beatles used it in "Because" - then Emerson

[Dukkha]

40. Walter Carlos, who is now Wendy Carlos

she has a great web site detailing proper speaker alignment for audiophiles and quaddies like me

http://www.wendycarlos.com/

[EC]

50. You're right

I forgot about the sex change...

[no name no slogan]

44. Got a funny story about that Moog!

The drummer in my band saw the first "reunion" tour of ELP (NOT Emerson Lake & Powell). The night he saw them, Keith's Moog started acting flaky, and it got stuck in this loop where all it did was make this "whooop" sound for fifteen minutes!

It was so bad that the house lights came up, and a handful of Moog technicians came up on stage to troubleshoot and fix the damned thing. It was a strange experience to say the least.

[EC]

25. Saw and liked both

Emerson was definately the greater showmen, spinning piano and all. Saw both, have replaced all my ELP albums with CD's but still on my very favorites wish list is :



Have already replaced all my Yes albums too, but this one I still need to get...

[Total Mass Retain]

28. I am brimming with envy that you've gotten to see them both live!

Was it in their "heyday" or recently? I'd give anything to see either/both in either era! I could scream with frustration that I found out that YES had toured North America RIGHT after they finished,and it's always up in the air as to whether they'll ever do another when they've finished one.PLUS Wakeman was with them on this one! And you never know if he's gonna join when/if they tour again either. Damn Damn damn

[EC]

30. Long ago, another lifetime it seems

Saw Rick in Chicago before Yes, then also saw him with Yes- Emerson, Lake and Palmer in Chicago at Soldiers Fields - it was one of my most remembered concerts - lst on list of Best Ever - Works I tour- #2 Best was Genesis then Pink Floyd

[Must_B_Free]

26. who cares? Keyboards suck as a instrument

all it amounts to is switches. No tasty magic like the other instruments.

[EC]

32. Have to disagree

I think it's the soul...

[toddzilla]

33. moron..

someone has to say it.


where's your album?

[Total Mass Retain]

37. It may not change your mind,

but you've just got to listen to Rick Wakeman's organ playing in "Parallels", or Keith Emerson in any of the songs(especially the Karn Evil 9" suite or "Toccata") and maybe you'll feel differently."Parallels" probably isn't the most distinguished YES song for keyboard virtuosity,but the sheer grandeur of the sound got me hooked on YES in the first place. It's kind of funny,most people I know say that it was "Roundabout" or "Seen All Good People/Your Move" for them. If you like bass work,you might like YES' Chris Squire's playing in "Schindleria Primataurus"(sp) from the "Fragile" album.

[goodboy]

62. I disagree. Not only must you have superb technique, but also a vast

technical knowledge of how the instrument operates itself.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Bill Evans AND Art Tatum.

Try listening to these guys some time and you'll know what I mean. ;)

[Total Mass Retain]

35. Thanks, I will give both a listen,

especially as Keith Emerson names Art Tatum as one of his childhood influences in his autobiography "Pictures Of An Exibitionist".

[Boy Interrupted]

34. Lori Partridge was the real master keyboardist

haven't you seen her in action on the Patridge Family? No one plays like her.

[donheld]

36. Elton John or Billy Joel

BTW welcome to DU :hi:

And to the fool who said keyboards suck :spank:

[Total Mass Retain]

38. Thanks,and LOL at the emoticon:) n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

54. Eeeeeeeep!

How could you? Neither one of those guys can play a lick. Both got musically stuck in 4td grade.
The Professor

[MadHound]

41. Well, he's not a rock keyboardist,

But quite frankly I think the best ever on keyboards was/is Oscar Peterson. Absolutely stunning to watch and hear. Wrote jazz pieces whose piano parts were so difficult that only he could play them. Guy had a stroke about ten years ago that made his left hand useless in playing, yet he is still out there, giving it his all and showing off his great talent, one handed.

[Ron Green]

59. You're absolutely right, but these rock poseurs don't even belong in the

same universe as Oscar Peterson. Or for that matter, Art Tatum or Earl Hines or any of the great pianists. "Keyboards" as a rock instrument is usually there to help create a wall of sound that serves to cover up the lameness of the guitar players. With some notable exceptions, of course.
:)

[hickman1937]

73. Here we go with the elitists

And Peterson couldn't carry Prokofeiv's water an a rainy day.;)

[Ron Green]

74. And Prokofiev wasn't fit to shine Lizst's shoes....

:P

[no name no slogan]

42. Wakeman hid a spare keyboard player under the stage w/ Yes

Rick Wakeman hid a keyboard player under the stage when he was with Yes in the early 70s. In fact, if you've ever seen the concert video "Yessongs", you can tell that Rick is NOT the only 'boardist on several songs-- especially on his excerpts from "Henry VIII" and the massive church organ solo during "I Get Up I Get Down" in "Close to the Edge".

I saw Emerson during the "Emerson Lake & Powell" days, and he is definately the better player, technique-wise. That being said, Wakeman IMHO is much better with moods and textures, while Emerson is more flash and pyrotechnics. Wakeman fits in as an ensemble player, while Emerson is mostly a pure soloist.

Think Rick Wakeman == Pete Banks, while Keith Emerson == Steve Howe. That's the easiest way to describe it.

[maveric]

45. Jan Hamner

But of the two you mentioned, I'll go with Wakeman.

[seemunkee]

46. seen both and jon lord and got to go with Keith

Saw him perform just a couple years ago at the Smithsonian after a lecture with him and Robert Moog.

[GCP]

48. Alan Price of the Animals was an incredible keyboardist

Just listen to any of their erarly blues tracks such as "How You've Changed", or "I Believe to my Soul" on the "Animal Tracks" album.

[Karenina]

49. Why must there be a

contest? :shrug:

[Wat_Tyler]

51. Steve Nieve.

[EC]

52. Tony Brown

from Genesis was good too. For all Rick Wakeman keyboard listen to "Journey to the Center of the Earth"

[ProfessorGAC]

53. They Are Both Superb

It really is a matter of taste. They both have outstanding technique, they both mastered both the playing and the technology, although i thought Wakeman's choice of orchestration with his synths and mellotron were superior.

I preferred Emerson's playing because there are more elements of freedom in it. Things like his version of Hernando's Hideaway manifest a superb command of the elements that make jazz, jazz. His interpretive skills catch my ear more than Wakeman's, but that doesn't make him better. Just different.

So, i would say that they are so close that it prompts a question like yours. It's not like comparing Glenn Gould or Herbie Hancock to Billy Joel or Elton John. Anybody with any appreciation of music and decent hearing can hear the difference between a genius and a hack.

So, both of these guys were outstanding it their own ways. There are differences, but those differences become qualitative, not really measurable. I like Emerson better. Someone else likes Wakeman better. You know what? We'd both be right.
The Professor

[Total Mass Retain]

63. Re:"They Are Both Superb"

That's what I think. It's just very interesting to me to hear musicians/informed listeners explain the differences,because I can hear that they're different,but couldn't exactly explain why. It's just fun knowing why:)


I've seen a picture of Keith Emerson with his first real band,the T-Bones. They were jazz,at least when they started,and all wore these Ivy League jackets and loafers and smoked pipes.

[ProfessorGAC]

64. I'm A Piano Player

I mostly play guitar now, but still sit down at the piano at least once a week. But, Emerson was my first rock keyboard hero. Before that i listened to jazz guys (Monk, Peterson, Tyner, Taylor), but he was the first rock guy that i really liked.

He can play some!
The Professor

[goodboy]

57. as a professional pianist, I love them both. But there's something

about jamming a knife into an organ that makes me feel good inside.


BTW I saw YES 2 years ago, and PorcupineTree opened up for them.

AWESOME SHOW!

[Boswells_Johnson]

68. deleted

[Squeech]

66. Is this a trick question?

Yeah, they were both awesome, back in the day. And they both came to stand for wretched excess. I remember they both kept coming around with more and more keyboards: Emerson had two Hammonds, grand piano, a big modular Moog rig and a Minimoog; then Wakeman toured with one Hammond, a grand piano, a Minimoog, a Mellotron, an RMI Rocksichord, and something else-- then Emerson came back with seven keyboards, then Wakeman did a tour with nine (some were redundant, because the whole rig was getting so large that he had to have two Minimoogs to make sure one was always within reach).

Then Wakeman left Yes, and Patrick Moraz did the Relayer tour with, if I recall correctly, fourteen instruments.

But the record holder was Geoff Downes in Asia, who had at least 15 different instruments-- and wore track shoes and jogging shorts on stage, because he kept having to run up and down his rig to play the right notes on the right instruments. Except that he was playing in a hockey arena, and the sound system wasn't good, so all those instruments that were supposed to be distinct boiled down to about three sounds: tinny clavinet, smarmy string pad, and skating rink organ.

But enough snark for the moment. Reading this thread has made me think about the two players' different roles in their bands. Most of the responders give Emerson the nod for the greater stylistic range he had, but it seems to me that's a function of his not having to compete with anybody else for solo space-- as opposed to Wakeman, whose function was more to orchestrate around Howe and Squire.

That said, I think I actually give Wakeman more credit for breadth of style. Emerson did several things superbly but repeatedly: the sea chanteys (Lucky Man, Endless Enigma, Pirates, and his Copland covers), the churchy stuff (Three Fates, Abbadon's Bolero, and of course Jerusalem), the King Crimsony abstract scales (Tarkus left hands, big chunks of Pictures at an Exhibition and Karn Evil 9), and the Jimmy Smith bluesy stuff. These were his habitual sounds, which he seldom really broke out of. Wakeman, despite a tendency to throw in a Chopiny arpeggio whenever he couldn't think of anything better, did have more range-- but again, trying to maneuver between Howe's and Squire's jagged licks, he had to be a lot more flexible! (You should also check out his work with the Strawbs, especially From the Witchwood-- it's delightful!)

And let me also mention that, as we cross from side to side, I love your DU nickname :hi:

[Total Mass Retain]

70. Nope, no trick question,it's just that as a a mere fan, I like them both,

and know that they're different from hearing them,but can't explain to myself just why they are,so I like to get informed opinions:)

Maybe I'm weird,but I liked the excess and pomposity of the classic prog bands. Being a non-musician,I'm very impressed by musical virtuosity. I like the whole "vibe" and atmosphere of classic progressive rock.

I may be one of the few people,I don't know,who even likes ELP's "Benny The Bouncer" kind of stuff,LOL.

Thanks for the nickname comment,I chose it because I'm in the midst of a YES obsession. "Schindleria Primataurus" wouldn't fit,but it was my first choice.

[Squeech]

72. Did my comments help any?

I spend entirely too much time thinking about classic rock :hippie: and I have a taste for excess myself.

I'll make one other semi-snarky comment (only semi because I actually believe it, and I think it explains a lot about their sound): ELP was Emerson's attempt to imitate Led Zeppelin from the piano bench.

But to see how that's true, you need to hear how ELP differs from Emerson's previous band, the Nice. Both bands were trios with singing bass players where the keyboards took a really prominent role, and even then you could hear Emerson's attempt to bring classical music into the rock sphere-- the Nice did Bach, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, and (one of their big barnburners) "America" from West Side Story. The biggest difference is in the drum chair: Brian Davison in the Nice had a light jazzman's approach, like tapdancing on the ride cymbal, while Palmer sounds like (and is) the kind of guy who would study karate just so he can hit the drums harder, and Emerson wanted that to appeal to the emerging headbanger audience. Emerson's solo style changed to suit, became a lot more about weird note choices in a squared-off rhythm. ELP also used to wear a lot of fur, leather, silver and turquoise, as if they were barbarians looking to pillage the academy. I believe this was all deliberate image making.

And compare that to the Yes, who tried to look like Lord of the Rings characters. Wakeman had straight blond hair hanging to his butt (and he was well over six feet tall, so that was a *lot* of hair) and wore a long gold cape. I thought he looked majestic, exercising wizardly prowess over the keys.

Somebody else in this thread mentioned the guy from Genesis (and got his name wrong; it's Tony Banks). If you don't know Genesis, you should, especially the stuff from when Peter Gabriel was in the band. And you absolutely have to check out Gentle Giant! There's another DUer whose nickname is progrocker69 that's into this stuff too.

And I'll say one other thing about progressive rock overall: to like it, I think you kind of have to believe in progress in other areas too.

"Force the bit between the mouth of freedom didn't we learn to fly
Remember to sail the skies
Distant suns"

[Boswells_Johnson]

69. Another amazing guy is Garth Hudson

[Atlas Mugged]

71. Nicky Hopkins

Leon Russell is also outstanding