If you spank (beat) your kids...

[Ernesto]

Don't you think it's time for anger management counseling? Remember that YOU are the adult and in charge. They are learning how to behave from YOU.

[Sannum]

1. Shaddup!

Or i'll beat the crap outta ya!;)

[anti_shrub]

2. Spanking is not beating

Saying everyone who spanks is a child abuser who needs counseling is like saying everyone who drinks a beer is an alcoholic that needs counseling.

I know too many kids who's parents rely on lame techniques like time outs and end up with kids who have no reason to mind their parents since the worst they'll get if they don't is a stern talking-to.

[partisan to truth]

9. and i've seen just as many examples of

maladjusted kids with no concept of authority whatsoever... who are spanked. and speaking for myself and others, timeout is far from a lame technique- because it's effective. in spite of fear that my argument will lose its effectiveness- fox's nanny show exemplifies situations where spanking backfires, and why timeouts work. lol, and i cannot believe i am citing this tv show, but i'm tired so i'll justify it to myself at least :)

[anti_shrub]

10. every kid is different, no doubt

but by my own non-scientific evidence of what I've seen with my own eyes, parents that don't spank end up with kids who don't have any concept of their actions having negative consequences.

I was only spanked maybe twice in my life, but it was enough to make sure I never needed spanked again.

[fishwax]

12. All it ever taught me was not to get caught

As a kid, I had a fair amount of your everyday rational clear-headed spankings that most people wouldn't call abuse, and I also had enough of what I would call physical abuse to make me leary. Looking back, I don't see how either was effective. For a long time, I thought they were effective, and imagined the model of discipline I had as a kid wouldn't be a bad way to raise a child. But in the past few years I've looked back with more distance, and realized that all it ever did was make me distrustful and distant with those particular people.

Personally, I don't see the value in it. I don't know that I could say ALL spanking is the same as beating, but I also don't know that the difference between the two is particularly clear. Is it merely the level of physical pain inflicted? Some have said it's okay, as long as you don't do it in anger, but I have seen some very calm beatings inflicted. Is it okay to whip a kid with a belt as long as you do it calmly and you have a good reason? I'm not posing this question to be sarcastic, I just wonder at what point the line is drawn. For me, I'll go with the positive discipline. I can honestly say that I've never known a kid who was ruined by time-outs.

[Donkeyboy75]

24. "All it taught me was not to get caught"

This could apply to any form of discipline or punishment. How does this parse spanking from other forms?

[partisan to truth]

30. yeah.... i was spanked once b/c my mom temporarily lost it

and my response was definitely more "shock" over what just happened than remorse for what I had done- especially b/c i was thinking "gasp, mom was bad! she hit!".

Being forced to sit still w/no entertainment was the worst punishment in the world... time that could be spent playing was much more valuable to me than anything else, not to mention the fact that i hated dealing with the shame and guilt that became associated with that ()$*)#% chair!

[Old and In the Way]

13. Spanking, if used excessively, loses its effectiveness.

If kids become used to spankings, it won't change behaviour, might even make it worse. Used sparingly, it can be a powerful behaviour management tool.....but only if it is applied at some point.

[northzax]

40. everything, used excessivly loses it's effectiveness

By the way, Old and in the way, this is not directed at you, I got off on a larger rant, forgot I'd hit 'reply' to your post.

groundings, timeouts, talking-tos, finger pointings, tasers, everything.

why, I was once sent to bed without supper! can you imagine? talk about child abuse! that's starvation! and one time? my grandmother washed my mouth out with soap after I said a naughty word! both of those are as violent as spanking.

Look, there are many forms of violence against children, almost anything taken to excess (and excess means different things to different people.) I am thrilled that there are so many DUers who take the time to teach their children every single lesson using the Socratic method. I am ecstatic that so many DUers are concerned about children. But you know what? kids aren't all that fragile. I'm 30, for instance, and many of the things I fondly recall doing as a child have been eliminated for 'safety' and 'well-being' of children. You know what? I broke my leg falling off a stone wall. It got better. I broke it again skiing. once again, got better. I have a trick shoulder from dislocating it when my uncle yanked me backwards out of traffic (can you imagine taking a child to the ER today with the report "My 30 year old brother dislocated his arm pulling him" he'd be investigated by CSD immediately. Of course, if he hadn't done it, my face would resemble the front grille of a Volvo, but whatever. My shoulder got better too. As did all the other injuries I picked up. I was a clumsy kid, now that's a sign of child abuse. Hell the one thing I didn't break was my ass the one time my mother spanked me.

I know kids who grew up in houses where they never saw their parents. some are normal, well adjusted adults. some aren't. I know kids who were spanked on occasion and ones who weren't. some are 'normal' some aren't. I know kids who were coddled, ignored, abused, babied and nurtured. Some are 'normal' some aren't. I have a friend who grew up ina fucking war zone, he's a lot better psychologically than I am, with my 'normal upper middle class WASP' upbringing. Kids are not porcelain dolls, they are incredibly resiliant. It really is a matter of luck, genes and environment. it almost always works, as long as you love them and do your best to do right by them, kids work out. strangest thing that.

When did we become so obsessed with perfection? you cannot be the perfect parent. anybody who says they do all their disciplining by 'talking' to their children is either a: incredibly lucky, or b:
cruising for a fall.

I'll give you an example. My aunt and uncle, great people, both special education teachers, loving parents, tolerant but strict, enabling of harmless behaviour (dying hair, wearing absurd clothing) but strict on dangerous ones (helmet wearing, homework, curfew,drugs) had a teenage son, my cousin, who died in a drug overdose this summer. Who's to blame here? should it be his parents? obviosly, they failed, right? if children are such delicate flowers, then someone must be to blame for this, right? To me that is patently absurd. Sometimes bad things happen to good people, and sometimes good things happen to bad people.

lesson? raise your kids the best way you know how, and hope you get lucky. Don't listen to other people's snarky suggestions, and don't give snarky suggestions to other people.

[mondo joe]

31. Have someone spank an employee or spouse

See if they don't think it's abuse.

[skygazer]

68. I love it when my spouse spanks me.

:loveya: :spank: :loveya:

[Old and In the Way]

3. Do you mean beating or spanking?

Both my kids have gotten a sharp smack to the backside when they were in the 3-5 year range. I can count on my hands the number of times I employed the technique, but it was always to get their attention. Interestingly, I found it worked quite well to stop an uncalled for temper tantrum or crying jag. Key thing is not to do it when you are angry, but when you can be quite detached about the situation.

[anti_shrub]

4. To some here, it's the same thing

some folks think the only way to handle unruly children is to have a panel discussion.

[Old and In the Way]

7. hehehe

There is an important distinction between beating and spanking, for sure. Perhaps some have been beaten and that would color my thinking about the subject. Or perhaps some have not yet had kids. I found having an enlightened adult discussion with my 4 year old was rather a futile exercise. But that sharp smack on the bum.....that was clearly understood.

:-)

[lwesty]

5. You wanna cry?

I'll give ya something to cry about! Just the idea in their head is enough to get them to stop.

[Old and In the Way]

8. Very true.......but that only works when they have a baseline reference

to your statement. When that "something" is prior spankings, they can relate quite well to that implied threat.

[UpsideDownFlag]

6. do you mean beating, or using physical punishment for being naughty?

dont be naive and say they're the same.

[foreigncorrespondent]

11. Remember...

...there is a huge difference between a spanking and a beating.

A beating will always leave marks on a child. This kind of action I do not support at all.

Spanking however is usually just a tap on the bum and will leave no marks. This I do support.

If a parent just spanks a child then they have no reason to seek out anger management. But if a parent does beat their child, then yes, they have a problem and need to seek out more than just anger management help.

[goddess40]

25. only the degree of the abuse

spanking is abuse.

We know that hitting a dog is bad why don't people get it about children?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

14. There is a usefulness for spanking...

...and I'm not talking about beating a child. I mean a light to moderate swat that gets their attention and makes sure the understand what they are doing is wrong and that they need to stop it. But that ends once that child has the ability to understand the feelings of others. I say around 4 or 5 a child is too old for spankings. Then you can talk to them and explain to them what they did was wrong. And disappointment is so much better than yelling and screaming and spankings. I agree with the poster above who says that saying that every parent who spanks their child is an abuser that needs counselling is like everyone who drinks a beer is an alcoholic and needs AA. By the way, Ernesto, this is flame bait. This subject has been run into the ground and broken off.
BTW, what prompted this statement?
Duckie

[Old and In the Way]

19. There was a Supreme Court ruling today on corporal punishment

and parental rights. I think it's a fair thread in that context.

I totally agree with your comments. Application of hand to bum is only effective within a certain timeframe of child-rearing and only sparingly. The more it's used, the less effect it has to moderate behaviour, IMHO. And it should never be used as a release valve for the parent to vent pent-up anger.

[Eurobabe]

29. Exactly, there is nothing wrong with a swat to the arse

as long as it is applied judicially, and only when absolutely necessary.

I am sick of all these yuppie parents and their bratty kids, perhaps we should spank both of them?

[WindRavenX]

15. working in a preschool...

...physical force is never a permanent solution to problem behavior. It NEVER worked.

[babylonsister]

17. This topic needs to include

the actions of the child. Some kids are just EVIL in their teens, and get a lot better after 20, 21, 22... I know someone who has a child, pretty female, who was pretty wicked from 13-19. She is now 19 or 20, lives in a different state, and is doing much better.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. A wicked female, age 13-19; the topic of Spanking. Hmm ...

:evilgrin:

Where is this leading?

--p!
A different state, no doubt!

[Systematic Chaos]

16. I would never condone beating a kid

But to me, spanking is sometimes appropriate when it's on the rear end and not ridiculously hard. It's great for getting attention and sending the message that if you don't want to feel that again, don't do the thing that caused it.

What really gets my goat is what I refer to as "volume parenting". You know, the dipshit inbreds who run around in public endlessly spewing such unforgettable gems as "Get over here, NOOOOOOOWWWWW!!", or "Stop that, NOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!" at 153 decibels, like it's actually effective.

[Kablooie]

18. I never spank my children...

but when they misbehave I just take them to the barber and have their hair cut. That terrifies them back into docility.

[donheld]

21. You WHAT?

your gonna turn'em into some of those long haired hippie types! ;-)

[partisan to truth]

26. lol, interesting

[Behind the Aegis]

20. spankings are not necessarily beatings

I think the person who used the alcohol analogy made a good point. Spanking can be useful during a certain time period in the child's development. When they are too young to understand certain gradations, then a quick pop on the butt works....act bad, get a pop on the tushie! As they get older, then time-outs and such can work well. As bad as beatings can be, I am more concerned at the emotional abuse that happens to children! Children are more likely to be emotionally terrorized, than they are to be beaten...IMO!

[Seabiscuit]

22. I just spank the monkey.

[partisan to truth]

32. lol- masturbation, the all-purpose remedy

[shesemsmom]

23. There are times when a kids

needs a firm hand on the back side... not a beating but a firm whoop!!
It will not hurt them.

[rene moon]

27. sorry but it is so dumb

Spanking is not the same as beating. ARGH!

[partisan to truth]

36. i don't think it is either, but it is a behavior that kids shouldn't

have the opportunity to learn and copy (which is what we, as humans, do)- for many children, it'll never be a big deal and they'll be able to draw a line. For others, not as lucky.

also, it's easy to conjure up the idea that spanking is okay and beating is bad... because what actually is the operational definition of spanking? Pressure applied to the gluteal area in a range of x-y torr?? My point being, people have varying concepts of what defines spanking. One person's spanking is another person's beating, and vice versa.

[mondo joe]

33. New rule: You should only ever hit someone big enough to beat the shit

New rule: You should only ever hit someone big enough to beat the shit out of you.

[partisan to truth]

37. joe, are you from new york originally?

it's funny- i knew a kid named 'joe mondo' in high school. Just wondering...

[mondo joe]

38. I'm from NY state, but Mondo isn't my actual last name -

My screen name is a combination of my first name and my partner's.

[partisan to truth]

50. haha okay

thought it was improbable, but worth a shot right? and you're from NYS so i guess i wasn't that far off.... kinda :)

[Not_Giving_Up]

34. OK, there is a difference between beating and spanking

I was beaten as a child...black and blue, but always under where clothes would cover.

My kids get spanked when they need it...but only for the most severe offenses. My oldest child has high functioning autism as well as ADHD, and we figured out early on that spanking just made him more aggressive. We take away priviledges and ground (he's 10) him now, much more effective.

[dr.strangelove]

35. I was hit, but not beaten

I was hit two times in my life. Once was when I stole money from my dad's wallet to buy candy. He spanked my one time in the butt, very hard. It hurt for what seemed like hours.

The second time was for calling my mother a fucking bitch when I was 7. She would not let me go to a movie because I got into trouble for something. I was sent to my room and my father hit me twice in the butt with an open palm. It too hurt for a very long time.

My dad only spanked me when the situation called for it. Getting into troule at school, hitting my sister and breaking house rules did nto call for a spanking, but some other punishment. I discovered that different wrongful acts brought different levels of punishment. It worked for me, because I never stole from my parents again (except for the whole college thing, they paid for an education and I drank and smoked away four years). I never called my mother a name again.

[stupid grin]

54. oh my god, you called your mother that?

At age 7? Jesus, I would have spanked your ass too! If my 7 year old said that to me I think I'd piss my pants.

[dr.strangelove]

58. I learned the words at school from

an eighth grader named Robert Glass. Robert, if you are out there, I got a spanking because of you. It was second grade ( I think I was 7 in second grade).

[skippythwndrdog]

39. Nope.

I'm the Daddy and I will spank my daughter when I see fit to spank her.

[Saffy]

41. The psychological/emotional impact of either is the SAME!

I don't spank, beat or otherwise force my children into submission via physical force...EVER.

While a beating results in physical trauma, a spanking is no better in terms of emotional/psychological trauma.

Think about it this way: You are an adult. You are the authority figure. You are already big and scary and in control of damn near every aspect of your child's life. IF your children need some modicum of discipline, wouldn't spanking them simply be an abuse of that power? Not so different than schoolyard bully's....

Or, think about it this way: A child's biggest fear is losing their parents love, care and compassion- they simply cannot survive without it (even if the parent is not a bio-parent). Capitalizing on that fear in order to force a change in their behavior is nothing short of emotional blackmail.

Or, what about this: You've (as in the general "YOU") already emotionally blackmailed your children into submission via physical punishment, thereby affirming their worst fears. Eventually, these children will distrust you and everything you do and/or say because the very foundation of compassion has been eroded. You don't give them respect, so the only respect you'll be able to get out of them will be fear-based. Sooner, rather than later, they'll learn to be very self-sufficient and independent because of their distrust. The VERY thing you (again, general "you") were trying so deperately to avoid with these oppressive tactics. And, what happens when you try to discipline them at this point? They use the tools you've taught them...oppression and violence

IOW, by becoming the monster they fear, you're creating a monster to fear.

Violence begets violence begets violence begets violence begets...oh, you get the point.

If you need to discipline your children, try taking away something they value more than a few renewable skin cells on their butt...but not something they value as much as their trust and love and need of you. The butt will heal. The lack of mutual respect and trust might not.

[northzax]

43. great. your child just stole 50 bucks from your purse

to buy candy. what do you take away from him?

scenraio b: your child tells a neighbor to 'fuck off' cause he heard it on TV, what do you do?

scenario c: your child is throwing rocks at passing cars in the street. he hits the windshield of a car. what do you do?

scenario d: you observe your child running into the street, your only option is to grab their arm and pull them back quickly. this will cause them pain, thereby associating in their minds you and pain. do you grab his arm, dislocating it, or let him go? remember, you are about to use force on your child. think carefully.

I await your answers. certainly, you will have these rationally thought out in advance.

[mondo joe]

45. In none of these circuimstances would I spank my kids

We'd work out an appropriate consequence. Getting hit wouldn't be an option.

In the cae of scenario d, pulling the child back isn't punishment or consequence, it's the ONLY avenue available to prevent greater physical harm.

Don't confuse the ONLY option with an array of options. Think carefully.

[northzax]

48. believe me, I'm not

but the point was made that spanking is always wrong because the adult should never withhold love and affection from the child, and causing physical pain is doing just that. I want a response from one of the perfect parents on exactly how they would discipline their children in certain situations. They all have the perfect solutions, that never involve spanking (I've already noted it only happened to me once in my life)

It was said, on the post I replied to, that you can discipline a child by taking something away from them that doesn't imply that he parents are denying them something. Well, since a child's entire world is mom or dad, taking anything away denies them a portion of their parent's love, as they see it. Toys come from mom and dad, withholding them implies a lack of affection. So does freedom. I want to know what this person's solution is to any of these situations. You I'm not concerned about.

Look at the paradox of modern parenting. You can no longer use spanking. You can no longer use food as a reward or punishment (makes kids fat, you know) you can no longer use toys (makes them materialistic) what to do? Frankly, I was a tough kid to punish, send me to my room and I'd happily read a book (can't tell a kid not to read, right?) I want answers, damnit. there are people who are obsessed with telling others how to raise their children, well, if they have all the answers, I want some of them. otherwise leave other people alone, you know?

[Saffy]

52. northzax: forest for the trees?

Take away a toy temporarily. Will it cause longterm psychological damage?

Take away a child's trust- temporarily may as well be permanently due to HUMAN dependency. Will that cause longterm psychological damage?

So, your arguemnt is that ANYTHING a parent gives to a child has the same emototional connotations as the LOVE a parent gives?

This arguement is so inherently flawed that I refuse to offer a counter response.

Which would you miss more? A THING given by a person you love, or the person you LOVE?

[northzax]

59. uh, the person

but it's not like my dad is going away permanently, right?> I mean unless the PC spanking police arrest him. follow it up with love, and it's as effective as taking away a toy.

tell me again how getting spanked took away my love for my parents? and my belief in their love for me? Frankly, I never had any doubt that my parents loved (and still love) me. they showed me every single minute of every single day. Even during a spanking. I dunno, maybe you are insecure about them loving you, if you show them in every act and word that you love them, then they won't have any fear of losing you when you spank them. the fault, Dear Saffy, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.

oh, but Shakespeare was probably spanked, so obviously he's not a good source.

Look, different things work for different people. you would rather put your child into a food coma and make them violently ill than swat them once across the bottom. that's your choice, but it is more like child abuse to me than a single swat across the bottom. Intelligent people can disagree on this. Why are you so convinced that you are right? problems with loving parents, perhaps?

[Saffy]

62. Excuse me?

"you would rather put your child into a food coma and make them violently ill than swat them once across the bottom"

I would rather they learn that stealing has negative consequences all on it's own. Ya know, as in REAL LIFE?

How is swatting them on the butt (or elsewhere) going to accomplish anything remotely like real life, unless of course you're gearing your children into a life of S&M, or purely conditional love or even worse, PASSIVE-AGRESSIVE control? (Emphasis on agressive, here).

Reap the consequences of your actions, kemosabe. Go ahead and be the monster that creates yet more monsters.

[mondo joe]

63. Frankly I think forcing them to eat all the candy is as bad as spanking

And I wouldn't do either.

[Saffy]

64. Well, then don't give them a reason to:

steal
$50
to buy
CANDY!!!!

I've got four children, ranging in age from almost 3 year old twins, to an 11 y/o to a 16 y/o, and never once have I encountered a situation like this. Stealing $50.

Stealing $50 for CANDY.
(not food, a pregnancy test or gas)

IF
I were to encounter this
with my own children, then I ought to be disciplined. Not them.

[mondo joe]

66. Of course it's a preposterous example.

But forcing them to eat all the candy is still as bad as spanking them.

[mondo joe]

55. If you're looking for responses that don't include spanking I offer these

In response to your scenarios:

scenario a: your child just stole 50 bucks from your purse to buy candy. what do you take away from him?

scenario b: what we'd take away would depend on the child and the timing.

scenario b: your child tells a neighbor to 'fuck off' cause he heard it on TV, what do you do?

answer b: I'd talk with her about it and explain we don't use certain words in our household. If the incident repeats she can have a time out or lose a privilege.

scenario c: your child is throwing rocks at passing cars in the street. he hits the windshield of a car. what do you do?

answer c: it's hard to imagine either of my kids doing such a thing, you know, having learned all their lives that hitting is not acceptable. She'd need to tend to the situation with me, apologize and seek to make restitution by paying for the damage.

scenario d: you observe your child running into the street, your only option is to grab their arm and pull them back quickly. this will cause them pain, thereby associating in their minds you and pain. do you grab his arm, dislocating it, or let him go? remember, you are about to use force on your child. think carefully.

scenario d: I think I could manage to pull my child out of the way of oncoming traffic without dislocating a limb, but again this is an ONLY option - not a choice in the same way spanking is.

I don't know what kids people are raising but my kids have long been raised to be considerate of others and fair. It's how I treat them and how I expect to be treated.

[Saffy]

51. Scenario's a,b, c and d:

a-) $50 for candy????? Whoa. Let the laws of natural consequence take care of this one for ya. Child must eat all (or as much is physically possible before going into diabetic shock!) of the candy he/she purchased with stolen cash...child gets ridiculously sick.

But seriously, if your child is young enough to want $50 of candy, and you are dim enough to leave your $50 of cash laying around for such a young child, then the laws of natural consequence will hopefully kick in for BOTH of you.

b-) Is it a neighbor you particularly like? :evilgrin: If not, why not let him/her watch every "Chucky" movie in existance? Otherwise, there's always the unpopular lack of cable TV.

c-) Rocks at passing cars? Geez, if ya truly have no idea where or what your child is up to, and throwing rocks at cars is his/her best form of amusement, then again I'd say let the law of consequences come into play. WHich means that you, as a parent, would be held legally and financially responsible for your child's violent behavior (Wonder where he/she got that from?)

d-) I've had to do just this in real life! And, lo and behold, there are at least 10 other ways to grab a child that won't result in a dislocated arm. Try grabbing the whole torso...you know, that thing with the flailing appendages?

[Seabiscuit]

44. The voice of sanity amidst a swamp of rationalizations. Thank you.

[northzax]

42. certainly, if you find yourself hitting your children in anger

then you have a problem. But frankly, if your discipline system is based on anger, you have some serious issues in the first place, whatever your punishment is.

[slutticus]

46. You must have very well behaved children.

You assume everyone else has it so easy.

Hitting in anger is certainly bad, but spanking as a form of discipline is sometimes necessary, whether you agree with it or not.

[mondo joe]

56. You might consider that not spanking produces well behaved kids

We've never spanked and never see a need to. Our kids are well behaved.

I keep reading that other people whodo spank have poorly behaved children who need to be spanked.

It's hard not to detect a pattern.

[slutticus]

60. You're right. It's not hard to detect a pattern.

A pattern of spoiled rotten kids growing up to be even more spoiled and more rotten because their parents are being brainwashed into thinking that a form of discipline that has existed for ages is suddenly a form of abuse. I'm not saying all children require that form of punishment.

It's foolish to believe that grounding works on all children, just as it's foolish to believe that spanking works on all children.

But to each their own I guess.

And as much as I'd love to entertain a "what came first, the chicken or the egg" argument....I really don't have the time.

[mondo joe]

61. Your assumption is that others kids are spoiled.

You're assuming other kids are spoiled.

But the parents who spank insist their kids are so misbehaved they need to be spanked.

Which came first, the chicken orthe egg?

And if spanking is effective, why does anyone need to keep doing it?

As to your defense that this has existed for ages, so did hitting wives.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

47. I prefer remote-control shocking collars

The dog ones fit around a kid's neck nicely. No need to hurt your hand spanking. Just press the button and they get the message.

[northzax]

49. see, once again, technology takes all the fun out of it

you don't need no fancy electronic collar, although invisible fencing would certainly help with time outs, huh?

[Saffy]

53. Fun= electric shock. Um, okay

"Don't pee on the electric fence" on your way.

[northzax]

57. uh, you are in the lounge

might want to remember that.

[Saffy]

65. Right. My bad. Abuse of children is light-hearted and good "lounge-ful"

Ya see, I've had this ongoing inability to decipher the difference between good-ol, abusive fun and actually taking a moment to find a more effective method of discipline.

Due to this liminal aspect of my character, I tend to err on the side of non-abuse. I'd rather be sincere in my confusion over appropriate discilpinary actions than be a self-righteous, oppressive asshole looking only to save face.

And then, perhaps my perception is a little "too serious" for the Lounge.

If only I could find some shallow way of justifying violence and abuse, perhaps I could fit in.

[Rabrrrrrr]

69. Bwuahahahahaha! I thought it was hilarious!

Lighten up.

And - hey - welcome to DU saffy! :hi: Hope you enjoy it here. And yeah, sometimes the lounge can be a bit dicey sometimes, not sure if someone's serious or just pulling a chain. Many of us here are chain pullers.

[skygazer]

67. Oh, boy, a spanking thread!

Get out the popcorn, this should be good! :spank: