Most sacriligious act of musical vandalism

[BurtWorm]

What's next? A Kenny G "duet" with Coltrane on "My Favorite Things?"

[MissMillie]

1. Natalie Cole

Polluting her father's music (and glorious voice) by adding her own voice to his recordings. Who needs her shrill when his voice was so elegant?

[BurtWorm]

2. I thought her updating of "Unforgettable" was kind of poignant

and clever. But if it opened the way for Kenny G, I have to rethink that.

[Richardo]

89. "Unforgivable" that's what you are....

I'm with you, Millie.

[Richardo]

90. "Unforgivable" that's what you are....

I'm with you, Millie.

[Paragon]

3. Madonna doing "American Pie"

*shudder*

[KadeCarrion]

4. Putting classic songs in COMMERCIALS

Anyone who has a TV has seen at least one ad that made them want to smash the damn thing.

:grr: :argh: :grr:

Oh, and my on-topic reply: anything involving Puff Daddy, and the travesty that once was Aerosmith's "Walk This Way."

[LibDemAlways]

12. Using The Beatles "Revolution"

to sell tennis shoes. That was the worst.

[lastliberalintexas]

15. And Janis' Mercedes

being used to sell Mercedes Benz. The sacrilege...

on edit- Wrangler mangling CCR's Fortunate Son.

Do the marketing people even listen to the words of these songs?

[blondeatlast]

25. Wasn't that Hilfiger? Whatever, talk about missing the entire point,

it was so effing ironic it just makes me laugh

[RobinA]

113. They Do,

but they figure the average American doesn, and they are right.

[Moosenose]

16. I'm younger than you...

but every time I see a cellphone commercial with Blitzkreig Bop as the soundtrack, I PUKE.

It's DESECRATION, I tell ya!!!!

[thermodynamic]

18. I second that!

Almost worse is that M&Ms commercial where they make a mockery of the only Woodstock that ever gave a damn: Woodstock. (not this "Woodstock '69" posthumous crap...)

[blondeatlast]

20. You mean the one with Run-DMC? I loved it myself.

nm

[RememberJohn]

40. I did, too... revived Aerosmith's career...

[KadeCarrion]

88. I've no problem with Run-DMC

I mean the recent versions from the past few years - with Kid Rock, Britney Spears, NSync, and more people whom I can't remember. Anymore it seems like everyone has to do the damn song, which is a shame because I used to like it before hearing it be ruined so often and by so many different people. But as I said, I like Run-DMC's version.

[Iraqi_guy]

5. Madonna - American Pie

talk about suck ass.

[thermodynamic]

19. The music was cool, but MADONNA?! Can she spell "hypocrisy"?

She's as unwholesome as Britney Spears...

[GumboYaYa]

6. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band

by the BeeGees. Sorry, but you just don't f*ck with The Beattles like that.

[CBHagman]

7. I hate ERIC CARMEN for what he did...

...with Rachmaninoff. I HATE him for that. :puke: It's ruined my enjoyment of the 2nd Piano Concerto.

Oh, and what Helmut Lotti did to the duet from "The Pearl Fishers" surely earns him a ring of hell of his own.

[Le Taz Hot]

66. Spoken like a true purist, sir.

I salute thee! :toast: ;-)

And may I just add, Bocelli (or whatever the name of the caterwalling tenor is)? I've heard better noises from a cat fight, yet, he's all the rage. Arrrrgggghhhhhh

Purists of the world unite! B-)

[CBHagman]

68. I push Ben Heppner myself.

Beautiful voice, intelligent singer, and he's Canadian to boot, eh?

But nooo, Bocelli gets all the attention! :mad:

So I agree with you 100 percent!

[catpower2000]

8. Britney Spears--"Satisfaction" nt

[Capn Sunshine]

32. NO WAY!!

I am so glad I have, through sheer instinct and lifestyle choices, I have never heard a Britteny Spears song , but
SATISFACTION!!!
:wow:
dude that's really fucked up right here.

[CBGLuthier]

9. Mariah Carey and Nillson

WHen she covered one of my favorite songs, Without You.

All that nasty warbling on one of the most beautiful love songs ever written.

Uggh.

[RememberJohn]

13. Yeah, I thought Mariah's version was better than Nillson's...

...whose version was a cover, too. The original was by Badfinger.

[blondeatlast]

23. Nilsson composed the song.

I would provide a link but lyric sites have the most annoying, unerasable pop-ups. If you doubt me, feel free to check.

[RememberJohn]

34. I don't have to check to know you're wrong...

...but for everyone else's benefit:

George Harrison: Badfinger was pretty good. It was a very sad story, though, because the guy, he ended up killing himself, Pete Ham, who was a lovely fellow, he was a good guitar player and a great singer, he wrote, the most famous tune I would imagine is "Without You"

Paul McCartney: Pete Ham in the group was a very good writer. He wrote the Nilsson song "Without You", which is a seriously good song.

John M. Borack, Garden Grove Journal:In addition, Ham and bassist Tom Evans co-wrote the unforgettable ballad "Without You"

These are from Badfinger's Biography.

Of course, from harrynilsson.com: Pete Ham and Tom Evans wrote "Without You" and recorded it with their group Badfinger. It appears on their album No Dice which was released in November of 1970.

http://www.harrynilsson.com/article1484.html

[blondeatlast]

41. I stand corrected! (and I'm a librarian, so I will take a bite of crow).

Still, the Nilsson version gives me chills, absolute chills.

As for Mariah, I will give her this--she has more quality than her many imitators. Not my cup of tea by any means, but she's ahead of the pack.

[RememberJohn]

42. Easy mistake to make...

Nilsson's being the more recognizable of the two.

[regnaD kciN]

135. It's also an easy mistake...

...because Nilsson may not have written "Without You," but he did write "Without Her," which became a semi-hit when covered by Herb Alpert, of all people...

[ProudGerman]

56. oh sweet jesus

I'm now mopping up tears from my desk. I just listened to the Nilsson version. And since it pertains to exactly what I'm going through right now, I just exploded emotionally
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Thanks for reminding me of that song. I really needed that, sincerely.

[blondeatlast]

60. My apologies . . . .

((((ProudGerman)))))

Hang in there, friend.

[ProudGerman]

151. Thanks for the kind words

They help tremendously, and I mean that.




ProudGerman, hanging by a thread, but hanging in there.

[blondeatlast]

22. Nilsson's was so haunting . . .

couldn't help but feel the pain.

As for Mariah, can someone please put her out of her misery? I'm sick of all those so called "divas" with their caterwauling voices, but she just is intolerable.

[RememberJohn]

28. Ahhh.. Mariah!

Biggest selling female artist ever. Only Elvis has spent more weeks at #1. In the top 5 acts of all time.

No, she isn't in any misery and apparently to a great number of record buyers, she is more than tolerable.

[SweetZombieJesus]

33. Ahh yes, because as we all know, quantity = quality

:eyes:

[RememberJohn]

36. Quality is in the ear of the beholder...

...mere opinion. Quantity is established fact. Mariah, sales wise, is in the same league as Elvis and the Beatles. Any other judgement of her is nothing more than a music fan's opinion.

[SweetZombieJesus]

38. So then why bring it up?

It's clear the poster was speaking out of a personal opinion of Carey's talent, so what's the point of bringing up her record sales?

[RememberJohn]

39. hey, just defending my postition...

If the poster can criticize her and says she is intolerable and needs to be put out of her misery, I can rightly point out that she obviously isn't in any misery.

[SweetZombieJesus]

44. I assumed she meant Mariah's "breakdown"

Or whatever that story was.

[RememberJohn]

46. I took it to mean....

... that because she feels Mariah has a "caterwauling voice" and called her "intolerable" she must somehow be in misery.

[SweetZombieJesus]

49. Or that she's causing us misery

Either way, I can't stand her, and I never could.

[Art_from_Ark]

52. Mariah Carey singing traditional Christmas carols

ARRRRGH! My ears are still hurting!

[BurtWorm]

58. All Starsearch-inspired renditions of the Star Spangled Banner

It was never a great song to begin with, but now it's become purely atrocious.

[blondeatlast]

62. <<<<Cringe . . .>>>>

Ugh--intolerable.

[BurtWorm]

67. I never hear the Star Spangled Banner not sung in that repulsive style

Even at non-televised events! I was "treated" to this type of star-spangled melisma at the auction for my daughter's school. Yecch!

(It's as thought they think that's how the thing was written!)

[RememberJohn]

75. tell me, all, why you find that style so "repulsive?"

[BurtWorm]

76. It's all technique

Very few who practice it have any soul. Most who emulate it can't even do it. It's overdone. It's not beautiful. It's show-offy. It adds nothing to most songs. It's unoriginal. It's soul-numbing. It sucks.

Other than that, it's okay, I guess.

[RememberJohn]

81. here's how I see...

..It has it's roots in black r&b and gospel. Traditional music fans find it threatening, alien. Reaction to is similar to reations whenever something "new" musically garners attention. Rock. Disco. Grunge. Hip Hop. Traditionalists will always react harshly to it.

America's first real introduction to the style on a mass scale came when Whitney Houston sang the National Anthem. I was working for an Atlanta newspaper at the time and remember very clearly the mean spirited and often racist letters and comments we received from people who said she turned it into, and I quote from multiple comments, "nigger music."

Many who sing that style don't do it well. Many others do it real well. Calling it "overdone" and "show-offy" is really kind of silly. The fact someone is singing means they're showing off.

Unoriginal? What, I ask, is original? Singing flat and monotone as most singers do?

I contend that people who find it "repulsive" (and that is a strong word) either have a problem with it's black roots, are jealous that they (or their favorite singer) don't possess the skill and range to do it, or some combination of both.

It's one thing to say "I don't like something." But calling something repulsive is indicative of some sort of prejudice.

Do you hold other skills to the same measure of judgement? Was Jimi Hendrix (or Clapton or Van Halen) being repulsive and "show-offy."

When everyone tried to imitate them, did the style then become "unoriginal" and not worthy of consumption?

[BurtWorm]

85. It's one thing when a technique is done well.

Then I don't have a problem with it. I used to like the way Whitney Houston sang. Then she got super rich and lost her soul, and a million other diva wannabes started imitating the shit out of her style. Some knew how to sing. Most did not. They seemed to think that warbling your voice all over creation was all you needed to do. Most of these cheap imitators, I don't think, have an awareness that they're passing along a type of singing rooted in the African-American church. Most of them think it's rooted in Pepsi commercials, probably. And they're actually right.

Most of these practitioners do not do it well, and they're not all--by a long shot--African-American. Listen to African-American singing of just 20 years ago compared to today. There was melisma then. It was much subtler. It was a tool, or a color on the palette, not the whole technique.

[RememberJohn]

86. You called the style itself "repulsive"

..not how it is sometimes employed. I contend most practitioners of it, like Mariah Carey, do it very well. The ones that don't are the ones noticed more.

[mitchum]

92. Don't you mean Mariah "Queen of the Punch-in" Carey ?

Hey, that's what they call her at the studios where she crafts her "art"

[RememberJohn]

94. Punch in?

Explain who "they" are. Documented sources, please.

And, honestly, do you not think that EVERYONE in modern recordings use punch-ins?

Definition: A method of recording data only at predetermined locations in a track. Punch recording makes it unnecessary to re-record a whole track if you just want to replace some of the data in it.

[mitchum]

97. A "punch-in" is the technique whereby...

a vocalist incrementally records their vocal (sometimes a syllable at a time) This is due to problems with technique and staying on key. The recording studio is far less forgiving than ears in live performance. I'm not going to jeopardise anyone's music business employment by giving names of sources. Since you work in the mainstream end of the business (and unlike some other posters, I have no problem with that), ask around. You will hear plenty about Carey's "stellar technique"

[RememberJohn]

99. I know plenty of her "stellar technique."

I've seen her live several times - up close. I've seen her sing a capella. And her voice is solid.

Sure, a studio makes anyone sound better. And most artists today employ the latest technology - including the punch-in.

[BurtWorm]

115. Mariah Carey has an amazing voice

So does Whitney Houston. And melisma is unquestionably a powerful singing tool in the right hands. But it's less and less frequently in the right hands because everyone and his mother sings that way now. Compare the vocals on most R&B records these days with the R&B of 20, 30, 40 years ago. Which era's singers have the more all-around wonderful, most memorable, most pleasurable to listen to voices? Are you going to argue that Mariah Carey is in the same league as Aretha Franklin or Etta James? I wouldn't if I were you.

[RememberJohn]

118. Yes, but more people perform in the lifeless, dull,

monotone, "stick to the melody: style so dominant in rock, country, etc.

[BurtWorm]

120. Name one professional singer who sings the style

you claim dominates rock, country, etc.

[RememberJohn]

122. List is too long to write,,,

Bruce Springsteen
Mellencamp
Dylan

etc. etc. etc.

No vocal prowess except to carry the tune. Dull. Monotone. Easy to sing along with.

[BurtWorm]

124. Dylan is easy to sing along with?

None of these guys are my favorites, but they're not without techniques of their own. They just don't warble mindlessly.

[RememberJohn]

126. No, they "Can't" warble. All they can do is carry a tune...

...and some not that well. No vocal technique. Just monotone "carry the tune" basic singing.

[BurtWorm]

127. Dylan is no divo

if that's a word, that's for sure. I personally have many different extra technical criteria for appreciating singing, and many are attributes that the least technically gifted vocalist can share with the most gifted: soul, heart, honesty, wit, risk-tasking, earthiness, urbanity, ethereality, vulnerability, openness, freedom, art. And then there are attributes I can't stand in any singer: bombast, cookie-cutterism, soullessness, show-offism, blandness.

One of my favorite singers is Natacha Atlas, who sings mostly in Arabic. When she sings in English or French, she imbues her singing with Arabic intonation, which as you probably know is even more melismatic than corporate American music. But she is an artist, a listener as well as a singer, and her melismatic runs are sung with exquisite taste. That's another extratechincal element I value highly, and one I find lacking in a lot of corporate radio music.

[RememberJohn]

129. No, he's no divo (lol)

The attributes you list seem more peculiar to songwriting.

But it scares the hell out of you that Mariah Carey possesses all that in her style and clearly much more.

Her technique is clearly an art because only a few can do it. My wife, a vocal teacher, attempts to teach the technique. Those that can't do it get sent to the backing chorus where they just sing monotone and listless - kind of like the stuff you like.

I can't speak for the artists you like, but your attitude towards music is very pretentious.

Yours is sooo artsy and profound whereas "corporate music" is sooo souless... ha ha!

[BurtWorm]

131. Why go ad hominem, RJ?

You could call me pretentious, but I could think you're being a Philistine.

For the record, I like some of Mariah Carey's early music. I can't stand most of her clones.

I have very democratic taste in music. But just because I'm a democrat doesn't mean I have no criteria.

[RememberJohn]

133. Why play the "ad hominem" card?

Throughout this discussion, you've tried to spin away from points I've made whereas I have addressed each of yours.

ad hominem: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

I would say we've both done a bit of that, no?

I have democratic taste in music, too. Although it isn't up to me, I feel people should be able to choose what they like. And they have. As the RIAA has shown. As Billboard has shown.

I don't sit around biching and moaning about how "lifeless" someone's music is unless it is to turn a situation around on someone as in this discussion. What's good for the goose, huh?

It should be plain to see that allegations of "intolerable" and "souless" etc. etc. will not go unchallenged by those who like the music that is being criticized.

Honestly, it seems there are a handful of people who do nothing but moan and groan over how much they hate this artist and that singer and things aren;t as good as they used to be (which is their right to do) But then they act appalled and attacked when someone takes the opposite position as though their opinion were an unchallengable fact.

They treat the person defending pop culture and music as some sort of pariah. And it usually centers around either a young or an ethnic artist.

[regnaD kciN]

137. By the same standard...

Although it isn't up to me, I feel people should be able to choose what they like. And they have. As the RIAA has shown. As Billboard has shown.

...it can be easily demonstrated that the American electorate has chosen to have a Republican congress.

:-(

[RememberJohn]

140. Another can of worms

...it can be easily demonstrated that the American electorate DID NOT choose to have a Republican congress.

Just ask Bev Harris.

[BurtWorm]

139. I tend not to moan and groan about what I hate

about music. I tend to defend what I like. I started this thread because I heard that goddamn Kenny G warbling, if you will, on his gilded sax over the simple beauty of Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." To me, that's truly disgusting and unnecessary. On the other hand, I did like Natalie Cole's duet with her father on "Unforgettable," which was also unnecessary but it wasn't disgusting. But I'm sure I'm in the minority about Kenny G. I don't hear anything special and compelling coming out of that horn. I just hear a lot of Smooth Jazz (tm). I just hear a lot of Diva Lite coming out of most mainstream popular singing these days.

A lot of people with no political taste think George Bush is the greatest president since Ronald Reagan--maybe even greater, if you can believe it. Is their right to believe whatever cockamamie bullshit they want to believe going to shut me up about my loathing of their lord in chief? No way! So why should I shut up about other big, fat juicy targets in the culture at large? No way, Jose!

[RememberJohn]

143. But look at what you just wrote...

I started this thread because I heard that goddamn Kenny G warbling, if you will, on his gilded sax over the simple beauty of Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." To me, that's truly disgusting and unnecessary.

On the other hand, I did like Natalie Cole's duet with her father on "Unforgettable," which was also unnecessary but it wasn't disgusting.

It is your right to say this BUT it isn't defending. Kenny G nor any of his fans attacked you or your music. What you did was OFFending. And it does come across as moaning and groaning.

But I'm sure I'm in the minority about Kenny G.

Probably not :)

I just hear a lot of Diva Lite coming out of most mainstream popular singing these days.

And there is nothing wrong with that - unless you want to go back and complain about every male singer inspired by Elvis, every band inspired by the Beatles, every Motown act, etc. NEW artists have ALWAYS taken cues from the old.

A lot of people with no political taste think George Bush is the greatest president since Ronald Reagan--maybe even greater, if you can believe it. Is their right to believe whatever cockamamie bullshit they want to believe going to shut me up about my loathing of their lord in chief? No way! So why should I shut up about other big, fat juicy targets in the culture at large? No way, Jose!

Well, you have to decide, either you moaning and complaining or your not.

Comparing Bush to pop music is still elitist. Your implying (still) that pop fans have no taste. That yours is superior. That you know best. Bush was elected (if you want to call it elected) by the narrowest of margins. Pop music completely dominates in a free market where most music styles are represented.

[BurtWorm]

146. "I tend not to" is not the same as "I never"

You can look all the words up.

And yes, I think my tastes are superior. Doesn't everybody feel that way about their own tastes? Or do some people adore certain kinds of music because they think it's inferior?

[RememberJohn]

148. it's obvious you think your tastes are superior...

But, no, everyone doesn't feel that way. In fact, coming from a musician/radio/writing back ground, the only set of people I have ever met (and I've met A LOT of people while playing in bands and working in radio) who expell any amount of energy extolling the merits of their music is the classic rock crowd and the indie/alternative crowd.

The rest of them - pop fans, country fans, etc. just enjoy their music without being threatened by anything else.

And why should they be? Do you go to a restaurant and sit and bicker about the food another restaurant is serving? What would be the point. You've got the food you chose.

Even the elderly listeners of an oldies station I worked for recognized that music and times change.

[BurtWorm]

149. Here's a major difference between me and you

I'm telling you why I personally don't like a certain style of singing. You're telling me why it's pathological to personally dislike a style of singing.

Interesting difference, isn't it?

[RememberJohn]

150. no, you're telling me that a certain style of singing is...

...vile, disgusting, intolerable, warbling, sung by untalented people.

That is a long way from saying, "no thanks, I don't care for it."

And because you chose to react so strongly to it as opposed to just saying, "no, I don't care for it" that does show some underlying resentment.

If I asked you if you wanted (fill in with a food you hate) how would you answer?

"No, it's disgusting. Intolerable. I hate it. It takes no talent to cook it and anyone that does is a souless cook."

"Burtworm, did you have an umpleasant experience with this food?"

[BurtWorm]

152. Let's see...you called "Janis" quote awful endquote...

Is that the only acceptable term to express disgust over something not to your taste? Should I say, "No thank you, I don't terribly care for that style of singing. It is for many people's taste, including my dear chum, RememberJohn's; however, I find it awful. Pardon my freedom." Is that the proper way to be critical, RJ?

[RememberJohn]

153. You're lying...

If you're going to quote me, do it correctly. I said IN MY OPINION Janice is awful. I did not try to tear down an entire genre of music and a specific style of singing as you have done.

You have a problem with the "live and let live" ideal.

The problem here isn't that you're being critical, but rather the rabidness of it.

Like homophobes who are secretly gay.

Like conservatives who demonize liberalism.

It is hard for some to accept that there are differences.

Instead of just enjoying what you like, you have to tell everyone what is wrong with what they like.

[BurtWorm]

154. You're ridiculous! Honestly!

I'm telling you my taste, you're pretending to psychoanalyze me. So we disagree about this kind of music. Big fucking deal. Grow a layer or two of skin, already! Not every one likes your pet music. So what? Go listen to "Emotion" already. Enjoy!

[RememberJohn]

155. You should be telling yourself that...

If it were no big deal of what music people like, you wouldn't have started this thread. But you throw this shit out there to prove how superior your music tastes are! Wooohooo! Let's make fun of the multi-platinum artists that the great unwashed loves! Dude! Hi-five!

It's really a form of school yard taunting of people you perceive as weaker.

But then you go postal when someone comes in and disagrees.

It's really kind of funny in an adolescent macho kind of way.

[BurtWorm]

156. You're a Kenny G fan, too?

In my humble opinion, Kenny G is simply awful. In my humble opinion, this thread has become simply awful as well. I humbly apologize for having any opinion at all that might be construed as awful. In my humble opinion, it is just awful when people express how they feel about something, especially when they feel, humbly, that it is awful.

[RememberJohn]

157. yep! THAT response was expected!

Threads like this can be avoided if people:

A. respect other's tastes
B. don't come across as a taunting bully
C. don't get surprised and defensive when someone dares to disagree

[BurtWorm]

158. Well, perhaps you should become a moderator

then you can censor any thread you like!

[RememberJohn]

159. No one is talking censorship here,,,

... and how incredibly narrow of you to imply it.

You can post whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. But so can I. If you want to avoid having your motives and tastes questioned, don't attack that of others. Turnabout is fair play.

[BurtWorm]

168. Am I attacking the motives or psychology of your tastes?

Are you attacking mine?

Answer both questions honestly, please.

[RememberJohn]

170. No, you're attacks are much more simple...

...without understanding the psychology or motives of my taste, you attack just because I HAVE those tastes.

I understand yours. It has been going on since pop music was born.

The story of pop music has been told in many books. It was the music of the young, and was hated and reviled by the old. Why? Not simply because the music itself was distasteful to adults. The animosity against pop went much deeper than that. At it's birth, pop music shook the foundations of values and beliefs held dear by grown-ups in the 1950s.

As it did in the 60s.
In the 70s. 80s. 90s. Now.

The older generation - or those who cling to the past - can never accept change and it manifests itself in many way. In the 50s, it was "that music is n*gger jungle bebop blah blah trash."

Since then, newer forms have been demonized as "talentless" "souless" "that ain't real rock-n-roll, man!"

But the causes are the same. New stuff is always distasteful to those who cling to the old and new stuff typically shakes the foundations of values and beliefs held dear by those stuck in the past.

[BurtWorm]

171. I am not attacking your tastes, dear sir

You are stooping so low as to impute "fogeyism" (you freakin' agist!) and even "racism" and "homophobia" to my distaste for music you apparently adore. It's the no-talent singers I'm attacking. You're free to adore no-talent singing. I don't give a fuck. But how dare you imply that I'm a racist, a fogey and a homophobe for disliking music you and almost everyone else in America adores? That is bottom feeding of the lowest order, in my humblest of humble opinions.

[RememberJohn]

172. And you have lied once again, SIR!

By calling singers "no-talent" and the other descriptions you've uses, you are attacking my taste.

And your opinions and statement are no different than those of critics when rock was born in the 50s. If it isn't racist, homophobic, fear of women,or fear of the young, it certainly is some psychologically driven prejudice beyond your belief that the music is talentless.

But I believe I was right to begin with.

[BurtWorm]

173. What psychologically driven prejudice is making you demonize

people who don't share your musical taste?

That's all I have to say on this. See ya 'round.

[RememberJohn]

174. None whatsoever.

It is YOU who demonize people who don't share your musical taste. You're flabbergasted and surprised someone came in and took your flamebait. You're surprised someone on DU would dare argue a "pop music is bad" point.

I like all kinds of music. My musical taste is probably more diverse than most.

What I demonize are people who are so limited they can't understand that there are different musical tastes and who criticize other music styles in a fashion similiar to how rock was first demonized.

And I doubt that is all you have to say.

[mitchum]

93. Incredible...I never thought I would see race-baiting....

used to defend paegant singing.

[RememberJohn]

95. Call it what you want, Mitchum

... fact is, just like in the days of disco, the established traditional "rockers" demonize this style (because they can't compete with it) - and it just so happens to be mainly done by black and black inspired artists.

Just like when rock started. Establishment is completely threatened by it.

As a matter of fact, the three biggest music phenoms have been black-inspired. Rock. Disco. Hip Hop/r&b - and they were all demonized
by traditionalists.

And I suppose your favorite singers are wonderful.

[mitchum]

98. Well.. I do think that Etta James, Patti Labelle, Alberta Hunter, ...

Dinah Washington, and Aretha Franklin are wonderful.

[RememberJohn]

101. And amazingly...

... Aretha and Patti have both said Mariah Carey is one of the best around. Especially Aretha in her interview for VH1's "Divas Live."

She won the 1998 Aretha Franklin Award (Aretha is involved in the selection process.)

She was invited by Patti Labelle to sing a duet with her live in 1998.

And is isn't surprising the artists you mention have been around a long time.

Music elitist theory: Old = good. New = bad.

[mitchum]

103. You have the wrong opinion of me...

I actually agree with you that a large number of "alternative" singers and musicians aren't very good at what they do. And I don't think that mainstream acceptance automatically means that something isn't good. Ultimately, (as you've stated) it just comes down to personal opinion. But I did not make up "the queen of the punch-in" title (it really is well known) I am not an adherent to your musical elitist theory. Christ, I wish someone would come along and give me the thrill I get from the artists who I listed.

[RememberJohn]

106. Perhaps I have formed a wrong opinion of you...

... but you, being involved in the music industry in some way (I assume) probably know that the more successful someone becomes, the more people try to tear them down. The same goes for politics. Once a rumor is repeated enough...

But trust me - Mariah's voice is all Mariah and she has been given props by many in the industry for her voice.

Perhaps the fact there have been so many imitators who, in my opinion are not as good, has brought undeserved criticism on Mariah.

I recall in '78 when Van Halen came out that several of my guitar playing friends swore they read that Eddie Van Halen speeds up his solos on tape in the studio to make him sound fast.

The fact that he, like Mariah, can duplicate his craft live may do little to convince people.

[Character Assassin]

102. Oh, please

fact is, just like in the days of disco, the established traditional "rockers" demonize this style (because they can't compete with it) - and it just so happens to be mainly done by black and black inspired artists.

'Rockers', as you put it, would find that style of signing utterly out of place in the music they usually play/perform, so to say that they demonize it because they can't compete with it completely misses the point.

[RememberJohn]

104. Oh please yourself!

It is a fear of being displaced, of not being able to compete with what the can sing, not of trying to sing that style.

[Character Assassin]

105. Oh, please redux

It is a fear of being displaced, of not being able to compete with what the can sing, not of trying to sing that style.

Uh-huh. So, then, who precisely were these rockers who were criticizing this style of singing when it came out? I hardly see any evidence of them being 'displaced', as they've never gone away.

[RememberJohn]

107. I said it was a FEAR of being displaced...

..the same reaction some people have about blacks, women, and homosexuals. Threatening subcultures cause many emotional reactions.

But, in fact, most of what is popular now is non "guitar-drums-bass" music so that style hase been displaced to a certain degree.

[Character Assassin]

108. So who were these demonizing rockers, then?

But, in fact, most of what is popular now is non "guitar-drums-bass" music so that style hase been displaced to a certain degree.

Depends on where one listens.

[RememberJohn]

109. Well, because we're talking about the music industry...

... which has always comprised record sales and radio airplay - and tabulated by such trade publications like Billboard (even when rock ruled supreme), I'm talking about those venues.

Of course it hasn't been displaced in your living room or car if that isn't what you like.

The demonizing rockers are here. Like you. They were the mostly young white males rioting on the baseball field in Chicago during the "death to disco" riot. Now as then, did they just hate the music, or did they hate what else it represented? People debate this still, but no other rock music has ever created quite such a reaction in a demographic group of people. There were probably a lot of underlying closets running throughout the crowd putting on that spectacle.

[Character Assassin]

110. Oh, tune in to KROQ any second of the day

and you'll find it hasn't been displaced all that much.

[RememberJohn]

111. Your arguments are limited to your experience...

KROQ is behind in the ratings to a talk station and the #1 LA station, KPWR, which plays dance/rhythmic top 40 - like Mariah Carey.

And I might add, KPWR competes with no less than 5 other stations playing near identical formats and still tops KROQ who are alone in the format in the LA market.

[Character Assassin]

112. Your argument is limited by your experience of my experience

KROQ is behind in the ratings to a talk station and the #1 LA station, KPWR, which plays dance/rhythmic top 40 - like Mariah Carey.

I'm well aware of the relative ratings of stations in LA, thanks. The point was that the music hasn't particularly fallen out of favor, and, as a bellweather for the rest of the country in the type of music it plays, KROQ, love it or hate it, clearly shows that guitar-drums-bass isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

And I might add, KPWR competes with no less than 5 other stations playing near identical formats and still tops KROQ who are alone in the format in the LA market.

Yes, you might, but anyone who knows LA radio is aware of the competition between the hip-hop/dance/call-it-what-you-will and similarly formatted stations. God help them when Big Boy drops dead.

[RememberJohn]

114. I never said that music would drop off completely...

There is a large percentage of the population who will always like guitar-drums-bass music as will I (Van Halen - all time favorite) ...but it has been displaced as the dominant music style in our culture.

For twenty year or so, rock dominated. For the last 20 years or so, popular music has taken a pronounced dance/rhythmic direction.

Now, before anyone protests, I didn't say ALL popular music had moved in that direction, but for the most part the songs tracked by publications like Billboard (who has done it since rock's inception and before) in their "Top 100" has become decidedly urban flavored.

And yes, I know LA radio to a degree. What does competition between those stations add to your argument?

[BurtWorm]

116. "Threatening subcultures!" Mariah Carey is a subculture?!

American Idol is subculture!? They are the culture!

Nice try at demonizing your opponents though.

[RememberJohn]

117. Burt, you tactics here are very freeperish.

I never said nor implied Mariah Carey or American Idol was a subculture unto themselves.

Mariah Carey's style is from what was, and still is in many respects, a subculture. Urban. Rhythmic. Black. It now dominates but that doesn't hinder many suburban traditional types of people from being threatened by it.

Nice attempt at trying to spin the discussion.

[BurtWorm]

119. Name one suburban traditional type threatened by it

[RememberJohn]

121. You're really reaching here...

...but my brother, for example, who calls it all, quote: "nigger music"

The mostly young white males rioting on the baseball field in Chicago who hated Disco. Did they just hate the music, or did they hate what else it represented? There have been other "dreaded" music styles but none that have illicited that kind of backlash from mostly t-shirt and jeans "rock and roll" people. Why? Funny that disco, dance, rhythmic, R&B, etc. is performed mostly by blacks, women, and gays.

You, yourself, are threatened by it. You just hate that the music you are passionate about has been overtaken in cultural influence by a style you clearly feel is inferior.

In fact, a good comparison is the Republican reaction to Bill Clinton being elected. The first president from the counter-culture era of the 60s, Clinton threatened everything the established old guard represented.

[BurtWorm]

123. It's difficult to be threatened by the musical equivalent of a dead fish

This style that you're defending as a downtrodden artform is so threatening to the suburban masses that Coke and Pepsi coopted it to sell their soft drinks. It's so threatening that FOX exploits it to keep the masses glued to their TV sets during the run of American Idol. It's so underground that you can't hear the national anthem sung in any other style no matter how far and wide you search. So underground that even dull, flat monotone singers emulate it when they sing the national anthem.

I suppose SUVs, movies based on '60s and '70s TV shows, and flag-waving are "threatening" to me for similar reasons? I'm just imagining that all of the above are soul-deadening by-products of corporatization? In fact my inner suburbanite is quaking at the undergound subversiveness of it all.

[RememberJohn]

125. Again, you're overstating. Bad habit you have there...

As I've said over and over, this music style now dominates. THAT is why it is used in the manner you've stated.

And you clearly resent that YOUR music is relegated to second or third string status while something you find inferior and "the equivalent of dead fish" has the spotlight. Too bad.

You want soooo much for your music to be thought of and declared artistically superior.

In reality, our next generation of old geezers ranting about "today's music" is growing in ranks. Which is a good thing. How much fun is pop music if there is no one who is threatened by it?

[BurtWorm]

128. You don't have to be an old geezer to find the kind of pap you fall for

to be unimaginative and soulless. A lot of rap is more lovely to listen to than the mass produced corporate warblers dominating the scene.

[RememberJohn]

130. But you're sounding like a geezer...

But it's ok! You're not supposed to get it. It's music for the young - not those stuck in a time warp of style.

Is this hereditary? Did you parents picket radio stations in the 50s for playing rock-n-roll?

[BurtWorm]

132. That is so pathetic, RJ.

Really pathetic. You're trying to tell me that the Clearchannel pap being shoved down our throats is the equivalent of 1950s rock and roll? That would be tru only if FOX News was the equivalen tof Edward R. Murrow.

[RememberJohn]

134. You're equating everything on the market today to ClearChannel?

Now that's pathetic, and all lame comparisons aside, yeah, each generation has their own sound - a sound the last generation shakes their head at in wonder and disgust. If one recognizes that, they've managed to hold off old age for another few years.

Much of today's music is better than the crap from years gone by. B

Much of the stuff from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s is superior to 50s rock. Much of 50s rock is superior to stuff from the decades afterwards.

It takes an open mind to see it.

Older does not necessarily equal better.
Obscure does not equal better.
indie does not equal better.
obscure and haven't been discovered yet doesn't equal better. But this is all just my opinion.

Here are the facts. Guess who is breathing down the Beatle's necks?

ARTISTS WITH THE MOST NUMBER ONE SINGLES
1. The Beatles (20)
2. Elvis Presley (18)
3. Mariah Carey (15)
4. Michael Jackson (13)
5. The Supremes (12)
5. Madonna (12)
7. Whitney Houston (11)

First and only female artist to have her first 5 singles reach #1
One Sweet Day was #1 for 16 weeks, the most weeks ever for any single

Total of 60 weeks at #1, beaten only by Elvis Presley (79 wks)

15 #1 singles - beaten only by the Beatles (20) and Elvis (18).

First female artist ever to have a #1 debut (Fantasy)

Only artist ever to have 3 singles debut at #1 (Fantasy, One Sweet Day and Honey)

She has 3 out of the 6 #1 debuts in history

Most years in a row to have a #1 single ('90 - Vision of Love, Love Takes Time; '91 - Someday, I Don't Wanna Cry, Emotions; '92 - I'll Be There; '93 - Dreamlover, Hero; '94 - Hero; '95 - Fantasy, One Sweet Day; '96 - One Sweet Day; '97 - Honey, My All)

Only female artist to have 3 albums sell over 8 million (Mariah Carey - 8 million, Music Box - 10 million, Daydream - 9 million)

First artist to have 7 consecutive albums reach triple platinum sales in the US

But of course, all the record buyers here were duped by corporations like Clear Channel, huh?

[BurtWorm]

141. Good for her.

:eyes:

[RememberJohn]

145. Yes, good for her

[regnaD kciN]

142. Strange...

just like in the days of disco, the established traditional "rockers" demonize this style (because they can't compete with it) - and it just so happens to be mainly done by black and black inspired artists.

...I always thought that disco was "gay-inspired." Everyone always used to say that if you don't like disco, you were homophobic. Now, it turns out you're racist, too?

Baloney. I hate disco because it is irredeemable CRAP. Always has been, always will be. And the race and/or sexual orientation of the performers has nothing to do with it.

[RememberJohn]

147. Yeah, it is strange...

Today, people who hate disco probably really do. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with hearing others say it and feeling it is fashionable and fun to bash disco, and maybe it is for some people.

But disco was alienating to the rock fan who had never had another style of pop compete for dominance. Now, you can see by this thread and others like it that more energy is expelled here arguing over music than anything eles. Music inspires passion.

Disco (and dance music today) demanded a degree of dancing skill foreign to the rock culture, requiring choreography, coordination with a partner, and agility. Much different than the slack-jawed milling that goes on at rock concerts.

This is still demonstrated today in Beer commercials that make fun of the men who get up and dance. It just isn't manly to be prancing like that! What are you, gay?

Disco's sense of fashion clashed with the jeans and T-shirt wearing rock mentality.

Disco was the music of threatening subcultures. Women and blacks performed most of the disco hits and the constituency of disco were blacks, latinos, and the urban working class ... all regarded with suspicion by the mainly white male rock majority.

Disco was the music of choice for a lot of gays.

All of this explains why "disco sux" was really a euphemistic way of saying "(ethno-sexual-gender epithet of your choice)" sux.

[ok fine]

161. its become boring

the greats, like Stevie Wonder, etc did it well...it was new, fresh, and most important it had feeling. Nowadays, the singers who do it make it sound boring.
With the old singers they put it in because they felt it.....
with the new singers, its almost as if they don't feel anything, and just put it in because they think it needs to be put in at that time.

which makes it come out dry as hell and boring as hell.

[RememberJohn]

163. Kind of like rock in general?

the greats, like Elvis, etc did it well...it was new, fresh, and most important it had feeling. Nowadays, the bands who do it make it sound boring.

With the old singers they did because they felt it.....
with the new singers, its almost as if they don't feel anything, and just do it because they think it needs to be done that way.

which makes it come out dry as hell and boring as hell.

[ok fine]

164. damn

your post is boring.....

[RememberJohn]

165. And yours is shortsighted and ignorant

damn!

[ok fine]

166. cool

.

[BurtWorm]

167. Welcome to DU, ok fine!

Damn cool to have you on board!

[ok fine]

169. thank you sir

glad to be here


naa
ig

[regnaD kciN]

136. Hey, when I saw Mariah's first album cover...

...I remember thinking, "Wow, she's going to be a huge star. I wonder if she can sing?"

;-)

[RememberJohn]

138. You were right...

... on both counts.

ARTISTS WITH THE MOST NUMBER ONE SINGLES
1. The Beatles (20)
2. Elvis Presley (18)
3. Mariah Carey (15)
4. Michael Jackson (13)
5. The Supremes (12)
5. Madonna (12)
7. Whitney Houston (11)

First and only female artist to have her first 5 singles reach #1
One Sweet Day was #1 for 16 weeks, the most weeks ever for any single

Total of 60 weeks at #1, beaten only by Elvis Presley (79 wks)

15 #1 singles - beaten only by the Beatles (20) and Elvis (18).

First female artist ever to have a #1 debut (Fantasy)

Only artist ever to have 3 singles debut at #1 (Fantasy, One Sweet Day and Honey)

She has 3 out of the 6 #1 debuts in history

Most years in a row to have a #1 single ('90 - Vision of Love, Love Takes Time; '91 - Someday, I Don't Wanna Cry, Emotions; '92 - I'll Be There; '93 - Dreamlover, Hero; '94 - Hero; '95 - Fantasy, One Sweet Day; '96 - One Sweet Day; '97 - Honey, My All)

Only female artist to have 3 albums sell over 8 million (Mariah Carey - 8 million, Music Box - 10 million, Daydream - 9 million)

First artist to have 7 consecutive albums reach triple platinum sales in the US

[Astarho]

10. Ricky Martin live cover of the Doors "Light My Fire"

nt

[KamaAina]

11. Latest Fogerty/CCR Desecration: "Suzy Q" -> "Barbie Q"

on some BBQ sauce commercial.

:puke:

If we're going to have an anti-desecration constitutional amendment, let it be against this senseless tragedy!

Although, now that you mention it, "Barbie Q" (a/k/a "Creedence Fan Barbie") might be one doll worth having...

[Capn Sunshine]

37. Actually Creedence covered the tune

done and written by Dale Hawkins in 57.Dude is still alive too!

[SweetZombieJesus]

14. Did you all block out the 9-11 "What's Going On" travesty?

Marvin Gaye Sr. should have shot the assholes who came up with this idea instead of his son.

[UCLA02]

43. I dunno...

I saw Bono and Gwen Stefani do the song live a few times and it was pretty good.

But actually, the version I think you are referring to was planned pre-Sept. 11 as an AIDS awareness compilation. (Which also featured, as you can see below, Marvin Gaye's daughter, nona.)

From the inside cover of the release:
On September 5-7 we group of artists came together in New York City to re-record Marvin Gaye's Classic song "What's Going On?". It was everyone's hope that, as in the past, this song would unite a generation in an effort to eliminate AIDS in Africa where the epidemic is destroying an entire continent.
In the wake of the tragic attacks on September 11, we feel compelled to recognize the victims of more than 60 nations and their loved ones as well. The proceeds from the "What's Going On?" release are intended to benefit the following organizations: The September 11th Fund of th United Way until the end of 2001, Artists Against AIDS Worldwide, The Global AIDS Alliance; and others.
The artists listed on the front cover as being involved in this recording are: Christina Aguilera, Backstreet Boys, Mary J. Blige, Bono, Destiny's Child, Jermaine Dupri, Fred Durst, Eve, Perry Farrell, Nelly Furtado, Nona Gaye, Darren Hayes, Ja Rule, Jagged Edge, Alicia Keys, Aaron Lewis, L'il Kim, Jennifer Lopez, Chris Martin, Pat Monahan, Monica, Nas, Nelly, NSync, P. Diddy, T Boz and Chili, Britney Spears, Gwen Stefani, Michael Stipe, Usher, and Scott Weiland.

[blondeatlast]

47. Missing the point entirely: "Fortunate Son" by CCR

"Some folks are born, made to wave the flag, oohh the red white and blue"

That part is of course in the commercial, next line isn't (I wonder why?)

"But when the band plays "Hail to the Chief" oohh they point the cannon at you . . .

The first time I heard it, I was stunned into silence; then a moment later, broke into hysterical laughter.

[jobycom]

55. I broke into curses-- You win, that's the worst travesty in music history

Which jean was it, so I can be sure never to buy them?

[blondeatlast]

59. I believe it was Tommy Hilfiger, not 100%, though . . .

Can anyone enlighten us?

[lastliberalintexas]

70. Wrangler jeans

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110001980

Even the WSJ finds it offensive...

[HEyHEY]

17. THAT FUCKER THAT RE-DID "BIG YELLOW TAXI"

I HATE THAT, WHAT A BUTCHER JOB

[blondeatlast]

31. Some barely adolescent girlie band just did it too.

:puke:

[blondeatlast]

21. "Lust for Life" for a cruise line . . .

Damn ironic too.

All together now, 4 part harmony . . .

RENEW YOUR COPYRIGHTS, DAMMIT!

[SweetZombieJesus]

24. "I'm Waiting For The Man" was on a Microsoft commercial, I think

Yes kids, nothing sells operating systems like songs about scoring heroin in Harlem.

[BurtWorm]

26. You've got to be kidding!

Are you sure you din't see that on SNL or something? I'm waiting for the day "Walk on the Wild Side" is the background for a hiking boot or SUV commercial. Or a depilatory.

[SweetZombieJesus]

27. I'm fairly sure I heard the tune, at least

Maybe not the vocals, but I heard the tune for sure.

[mitchum]

50. Remember...Lou's already used WOTWS to sell motor scooters

I've tried to block it out, but no luck...

[BurtWorm]

57. Eww.

The world will finally have gone to hell when Captain Beefheart's "Babblin' Smoke" is used to sell smoked turkey.

[regnaD kciN]

144. As a columnist for the Seattle Times put it...

...many years ago, just after the California Raisins "Heard It Through The Grapevine" monstrosity, "What's next? 'Bad Moon Rising' to sell Preparation-H?"

;-)

[blondeatlast]

61. Heroin, motor scooters--great combo!

nm

[mitchum]

51. That is fucked-up and absurd!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Tom Jones did an ass kicking version of that song!

[JVS]

29. What is with the GOP approved polling method?

only one choice, that sucks!

[BurtWorm]

30. If it didn't suck, I wouldn't have picked it.

Actually it was just my creative way of expressing extreme disgust at the song in question, which I just happened to have heard. This is an opinion-solicitation thread disguised as a poll.

[UCLA02]

35. ANY Led Zeppelin or The Who in a GD car commercial!! eom

[ornotna]

54. speaking of Led Zeppelin..

4 Non Blondes version of Misty Mountain Hop is pretty good. But that's just my opinion.

Remember what you said, because in a day or two, I'll have a witty and blistering retort!

[BurtWorm]

63. Welcome, notawol!

Nice to see a new handle!

[ornotna]

96. Thanks!

I think I'm going to like it here. :)

[WillyT]

45. Actually Figuring Out The Words To 'Wooly Bully', What A Crime !!!

:evilgrin:

[blondeatlast]

48. Some things are best left undiscovered . . .

nm

[Chovexani]

64. Anything involving Puff Daddy

Or P. Diddy or Donkey Kong or whatever the fuck he's called this week. Who'd have thought you could make a career out of fucking up other people's songs.

My ears still hurt after what he did to Kashmir...

[Mr. Jinx]

72. Just about everything he touches turns to crap

"Every Breath You Take" by The Police comes to mind. Place your bets on which version will still be heard in 25 years...

[why not]

65. Madonna - American Pie

.

[annonymous]

69. Madonna's version of American Pie.

Also can't stand the Counting Crows version of Big Yellow Taxi.

[Character Assassin]

71. The fact that Janis Joplin ever recorded in the first place

Just my $0.02

[KittyWampus]

74. Are We The Only Two People Who Can't Abide Joplin?

Wow, thought I was the only one.

[ProfessorGAC]

77. Me, Three!

An active non-fan of Janis, here. Actually, her voice was not the problem. The material is crap and the bands were both horrible.
The Professor

[mkregel]

82. Me Four!

Her voice was like nails on chalkboard!

Somehow she is considered the voice of the 60's, although I think Joni Mitchell embodies that much better (and I'm an X-er!)

[RememberJohn]

84. Only because she died...

people who die young are somehow elevated higher than they should be.

[Character Assassin]

78. Looks like we've got company. God Almighty she sucked.

I can't think of a worse female performer.

She made Wendy O. Williams look good, for chrissakes.

[RememberJohn]

83. In my opinion, Janice was awful...

...had she lived, she would not be anywhere near the icon people make her out to be.

[mitchum]

91. I felt that way for a long time

Considered her a stupid hippie blackface earth mother type. But over the years I have really grown to appreciate her interpretive powers and the quality of her voice. I still detest ANYONE ELSE who tries to do her schtick (you know who they are) Her material and bands weren't very good, but sometimes I still get a perverse kick out of the general fucked-up-ness of Big Brother

[lets see]

73. Madonna - American Pie

[ok fine]

79. Madonna singing American Pie

she sucks.

[SEAburb]

80. nothing can top Pat Boone's lame attempt at singing "Tutti Fruiti"

I'm permanently scared for having heard it.

[imhotep]

87. Someone should make a poll

of Best act of musical vandalism.

[jus_the_facts]

100. Sheryl Crow doin' Sweet Child Of Mine....

...sorry but it was atrocious compaired to G~n~R's version! x(

[retread]

160. Led Zep's entire catalog. Copying verbatim from men

who have been used and ripped off all their lives, then claiming it as your own is a sacrilege. I still gag when I hear that "juice run down my leg" crap.

[Throckmorton]

162. Using the Shakers Simple Gifts to sell cars.

Whats next, Hail Mary's to sell beer?