DUers, please help with this ethical relationship/friendship dilemma:

[2008]

My best friend of over 12 years ("John") is dating a woman I can't stand ("Janet"). It's a classic scenario -- best friend and girlfriend don't gel.

John is a liberal Republican. He tries to keep an open mind, but unfortunately it's been clogged by Medved and Hannity. He would have voted for Lieberman over Bush in a second, but bought all the RW bullshit about Kerry supposedly being weak on terrorism.

Janet, however, is a goddamn freeper. When I explained to them about PNAC, and the Bush crime family's plans for the rest of the world, Janet agreed these would be good steps for Bush to take. Janet wants to see us invade countries all over the world, forcing our way of life on them; and if it means a draft, she says: "There are more than enough young bodies to feed however many wars we need to create, in order to spread democracy around the world."

In case you don't already hate Janet: She also said once that the Viet Nam protesters of the '60s were puppets of the Soviet Union.

You get the picture. I'm starting to hate Janet, and would really like to see her out of my life. I want my best friend back, untainted by her political fascism and religious fanaticism.

Now, apart from her religion and politics, Janet has another issue she feels extremely strong about: infidelity. To her, there is nothing worse a person can do than cheat on his or her significant other.

This is where it gets really interesting.

In a few days, I'll be driving John to the airport. He told Janet it's a business trip, but in reality, he's meeting "Mary" at the airport, and they're off to Atlantic City for a weekend of infidelity. (That's why he's having me, instead of Janet, drop him off at the airport.)

I've told John what a bad idea this is, and how I think it's wrong. Some of you might say I shouldn't be his enabler -- i.e., shouldn't drive him to the airport -- and maybe you're right. But for the record, I've tried to convince him to do the right thing.

Now, so that you'll understand the plan I'm considering, I need to point out that Mary is ugly, while Janet is beautiful. Mary, if seen from the wrong angle, could easily be mistaken for a man ... for a tough man ... a tough truck-drivin' or construction-workin' man. Face and body. I have no idea what John is thinking.

While John is off in Atlantic City with Mary, Janet will be dropping by John's house every day to feed his dog.

There's a good chance she'll get on his computer, and also the possibility that she'll check his emails.

Here's my idea:

After I drive John to the airport, where I'm sure to see Mary as they meet up, I'm tempted to go home and write John an email that goes something like:

John,

I just don't understand what you're thinking. Seeing Mary at the airport today made me wonder, once again, how the HELL you can risk your relationship with Janet for someone like Mary! I've already been questioning your sanity, but after seeing Mary today, looking like a man in a woman's wig, I'm beginning to question your sexuality, too.

From John's perspective, this is the sort of email he would expect from me (we always give each other a hard time), so he would never guess that I sent it just to hurry an end to his relationship with Janet.

Janet, however, would know it's true (she's had her suspicions about Mary), especially since she's probably wondering why John turned down her offer to drive him to the airport.

It seems to me that, if I did this, we'd all win. Janet would be gone, which is good for me. She would no longer be dating a cheater, which is good for her. And John would be free of a relationship that demands fidelity -- a demand he is incapable of honoring.

Should I send the damning email, knowing Janet will probably see it?

Should I not send it, and just hope it all blows up in John's face without my help?

Am I wrong to drive him to the airport, knowing why he's having me do it?

Am I wrong to remain John's friend, knowing what a cheater he is?

I guess the biggest problem I'm having is that I'm enabling John by giving him a ride to the airport, but "turning him in" because I hate his girlfriend.

But, my hatred of her aside, isn't she better off knowing, so she can find someone who will be faithful?

I'm very confused. All I know is, I want her GONE, and I finally have a chance to get rid of her.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Send the email

Driving your friend to the airport, having made your thoughts known to your friend of 12 years, is hardly "enabling." (God, I hate jargon..........) You're just giving your friend a ride. What he does with his life is his business, and I doubt he needs your approval.

But, I hate Janet.

So, I'd certainly send the email.

Where freepers are concerned, all's fair.

Do it, and keep us informed.

You're a good friend. Janet is evil and must be abolished.

[2008]

2. Hey, what a coincidence!

I hate Janet too!

(But seriously, I appreciate the input.)

[truthseeker1]

3. Dude, don't do it! Don't get involved!

Why risk losing John forever? Let him come to terms with Janet on his own - sounds like it's only a matter of time anyway.

You know it struck me reading your story......that JANET is the ugly one. Maybe John is attracted to what Mary has going on inside. But perhaps he's one of those guys who's always thought he should "end up" with more of a trophy gal and maybe that's what he sees in Janet?

Meanwhile, he's still having fun with Mary who's personality he may like better than Janet's.

IMHO you should limit the time you spend with John to when Janet is not around, even if that means you see less of John. Try to be supportive of him. Try not to criticize Janet (unless he asks, and then be very careful). My 2 cents.

[BiggJawn]

4. Stay out of it.

You want the "Dear Abby" treatment, so here it is:

M. Y. O. B.

Time wounds all heels, don't forget. He'll fuck-up and get caught some day.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. I wouldn't touch that with a pair of asbestos gloves. It sounds as if it

is about to implode on its own anyway. Hope you get your friendship with John back though.

[forgethell]

6. Here's the best advice

you will ever receive in your entire life: Mind your own business. Neither one will thank you. You will probbly lose your best friend forever.

And, if your part comes out in pimping for your friend, you might pay a price with this woman. Some of them are incredibly creative when it come to revenge, as, of course, are some me.

Best luck, whatever you decide. but I wouldn't touch this situation with a ten-foot pole.

[Sufi Marmot]

7. Don't send the email...

It would be selfish and wrong of you to interfere in John's relationship simply because you don't like Janet. Mind your own business, and if you have ethical qualms about giving John a ride to the airport, have him take a taxi.
John's relationship with Janet, no matter how distasteful to you, is none of your business.

-SM, who suspects, for what it's worth, that most syndicated advice columnists would agree with him..

[tjdee]

8. Have you TOLD him all this?

I can see how Janet throws a kink in your friendship. I have dealt with similar issues when a good male friend dates someone, especially if I don't like them.

However.
You're his friend. I'd tell him that he's being a turd cheating on a freeper, using Mary for SOME reason because she's not good enough to be his main squeeze, and leave it at that.

Because if he found out you sent that email with ulterior motives he wouldn't like it. And that would be damaging to your friendship.

[2008]

Yes, I told him:

"This is wrong, and you're probably going to get caught."

In fact, I put it this way: compared it to stealing $200 from his boss...

1. It's morally wrong.

2. It's a bad idea because he could get caught.

3. It's a big risk to take for such a small payoff.

(Oh, and I forgot to add in my initial thread-starter: Mary doesn't know about Janet. She thinks John is single. She thinks this trip is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.)

[tjdee]

13. Sending that email lets him off the hook.

Actually, you should let him stew in his own bad decisions and when the shit hits the fan, he should feel the full brunt of it.

[tanyev]

9. Why are you asking ethical advice

from complete strangers on a political website?

[lightbulb]

11. I'd do it

It's the Lounge, after all. He could be making the whole thing up just to see how people respond, anyhow. It's fun to explore peoples ethics like this, don't you think?

[tanyev]

12. It just smells a little fishy to me.

:shrug:

[2008]

16. Because of my low post count?

Does it sound like I'm lying?

I'm not lying. This is my real dilemma, and I appreciate any real feedback I can get.

But calling me a liar, or disparaging my low post count, is not helping.

[tanyev]

17. Your scenario seems overly complicated.

Whatever. Good luck with it.

[lightbulb]

25. I'm not saying your lying at all

Just pointing out that this is an internet forum and thus everything needs to taken with a grain of salt. It's impossible to be completely sure of anyone's real intentions if you only know them in cyberspace.

[2008]

26. I was replying to another post

I knew you didn't say that

[MrSandman]

35. Bingo...nt

[2008]

37. please explain the "fishy" part, nt

[MrSandman]

46. How can I save my slightly Republican friend...

from an extremely Republican gf? By using a woman who could easily be mistaken for a man ... for a tough man ... a tough truck-drivin' or construction-workin' man.

If it is an ethical question, ask yourself the questions you asked your friend like it were about stealing $200 from your boss.

But then if it is about trying to discover what is preferred, physical beauty or political congruence, take a philosophy class.

The funny thing about ethical questions, is that you have the answers and it doesn't matter squat what progressive strangers of diverse backgrounds suggest.

on edit...in case the fishy part is still not clear, you have set up a choice of possible prejudices to choose from. Unfortunately, for you, it seems the biggest prejudice is against someone who wants to make his/her friend's choices for them either overtly or covertly. The textbook definition of, well, not progressive thought.

[2008]

48. it's not as complicated as all that

What it really comes down to is being blinded by my hatred of this woman.

It had nothing to do with the attractiveness of either woman. That tidbit merely provided the basis for my proposed email to him.

I think you might have just skimmed my original post, without really getting an idea of what I was trying to decide.

Nothing to do with choosing one or the other, based on looks.

Nothing to do with saving my Republican friend from this freeper monster.

Everything to do with hating the freeper monster.

[MrSandman]

52. If you would consider sending a "playful" email...

with the intent to hide its purpose from a friend, it builds little trust in honesty with anonymous strangers.

I think you might have just skimmed my original post, without really getting an idea of what I was trying to decide.


I am through with this thread.

[2008]

14. many reasons

1. I don't know who else to ask.

2. With the massive traffic at DU, I'm sure to get a lot of diverse opinions.

3. I respect the viewpoints of progressives.


But the "political website" part of your question doesn't make much sense. This is the Lounge.

The Lounge.

It's filled with kitty pics, and ill-fated "penis posts." My thread is no less appropriate than any of the others I see here. But thanks for asking.

[lightbulb]

10. I vote with the majority this time

Janet is destined to be history sooner or later. Just let John know that you don't ever want to cross paths with his Ann Coulter wannabe and time will take care of the rest.

As for Mary - John obviously sees something deeper than physical beauty in her, which also suggests that he wont be able to stand someone rotten on the inside like Janet for too long.

[VivaKerry]

15. First, Janet is not in YOUR life.

Second, how many cool, wonderful liberal chicks (who you would like) would EVER go out with John ... even if he is a light republican? His pickings amongst good women are real thin. Let him enjoy himself with female companionship while can. He is destined to be with a gal far worse than janet, I bet.

Third, If you think Janet is going to snoop, do not set her up. He's a cheat; and she's a snoop. She's also a 'slut' under her rules: she's all for premarital sex? I think that's infidelity against god, I think. Those x-tians are hard to pin down on anything!

Fourth, if he is cheating on her, he isn't going to marry her. Right? And if he does, he is going to totally ruin her life with his philandering. Poetic justice for dear Janet (who I hate too, btw!!!)

The best advice is: MYOB, and give your buddy a ride to the airport; he would take you no matter what, right?

Thanks for the post. I just LUV a sordid twisted republican tale of woes... all preventable woes, if they were not so blind.

[2008]

31. they DO provide loads of entertainment, don't they?

and they call us the Hollywood elite

thanks, these are all very good points

[VivaKerry]

51. heh heh heh!

*

[AlCzervik]

18. I would stay out of it period.

friends sometimes drift in different directions and discover they dont have all that much in common anymore Janet may be a freeper but your buddy doesn't exactly sound like a prize either.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2008]

22. I started to see that before I even finished the original post

"Janet may be a freeper but your buddy doesn't exactly sound like a prize either."

I was starting to see, as I wrote that whole long thread-starter, just how far this guy has sunk. I guess it's one of the hard decisions I was wondering about -- wondering if I'm wrong to even remain friends with him.

He's always been a good friend to me, but he uses women terribly.

[AlCzervik]

23. It sucks for you i know

we grow up with a group of friends and then one day some drift apart or move to another state or marry someone we cant stand and that's pretty much the end. Maybe your friend will figure it out or maybe he's hoping Janet the freeper will catch him screwing around on her and she will dump him, maybe thats his MO. He may be the kind of person that can't break up with someone so he cheats so they dump him.

[2008]

27. that's a very real possibility

it's how many of his relationships have ended

thanks, this gives me hope

[AlCzervik]

28. Good, i glad to help.

:hi:

[VOX]

20. John's your friend. Don't go all Machiavellian on him...

Sounds like Janet's days with him are numbered, anyway.

John's a big boy -- just be a good friend. :)

[NoSheep]

21. Stay out of it. I don't see any integrity here at all. Any of you. Sorry.

[2008]

24. don't be sorry

Sometimes taking the easy way out, making one massive blanket statement about the integrity of others without offering a substantial alternative, is the best one can do.

[Bunny]

53. Maybe no alternative was offered because none is due.

There is no substantial alternative for your problem, which, by the way, sounds like the kind of letters that Dear Abby used to get from kids at Yale or Harvard or something.

If your story is even the least bit true, you have absolutely no business getting involved in the love life of your friend. And I think you know that. None. Butt out. Try to do the best you can with that, huh?

Unless the problem really isn't Janet? Hmmm......

[2008]

29. Overall, based on all the replies, the consensus seems to be:

(with a few exceptions)


don't send the email

give him the ride to the airport

continue to tell him it's wrong to cheat on her

let him bury this relationship by himself

[ozarklib]

30. Take him to the airport,

but don't send the email. If Janet really believes that stuff, the relationship will self-destruct anyway.

Have you considered that Janet may be pulling your chain when she says those things? Can anybody really believe all that?

[2008]

34. yes, I was raised by freepers and fundies

They believe whatever their hell-god tells them to believe.

I mean it, some of these people are just insane.

When a person can believe the Biblical stories of the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and the pairs of animals on the ark, and Jonah getting swallowed alive by a big fish, and spit out, alive ... these people can believe anything.

[Pithlet]

32. If you want to keep John as a friend

Stay out of it. If you don't, you'll just piss him off and he'll dump you as a friend. If John's cheating bothers you enough, you may want to consider dumping HIM as a friend. In that case, you can tell Janet.

[Bossy Monkey]

33. In order, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No

but then, you knew all that already.

[2008]

36. Answering 'no' to #5 is like saying...

that Janet is better off not knowing.

I wouldn't have taken this much time to post the topic and discuss it, if I already knew the correct answers to those questions. I'm beginning to get a clearer picture, based on the different replies, but "you knew all that already" is kind of shitty.

[Bossy Monkey]

39. No, in fact it isn't

The way to give advice is to listen to what people say and tell them what they just said. Re-read your original post and you will find that what you are saying is that you know that it is wrong to send the email, wrong to take him to the airport, wrong to remain his friend when you have no respect for him, and wrong to think that it's your job to decide that she'd be happier knowing that he's a cheater.

[2008]

41. I see

I believe you're right.

I think I posted this so that one of two things would happen: so I'd either feel vindicated at giving in to temptation (I have to admit, I loved the first reply), or confirmation about doing the correct (but difficult) thing.

This is hard. I may actually have to discontinue this friendship. Based on his past, he won't change.

[fortyfeetunder]

38. If you had a poll...

I'd be on the side to mind your own business. As you said before, Janet has her suspicions..the loaded question is if Janet asks you what was the reason to take John to the airport on a weekend biz trip?

[fleabert]

40. The evil side of me says

Tell freeper in person, so you can see her face, and bring a picture of him cheating too. and then LAUGH, really hard.

But the real me says: tell your friend it's wrong, and if asked, that you will not lie for him. Soon enough, he will get caught, let's just hope he doesn't catch any VD in the meantime.

On the other hand, I was cheated on once, and I was the only person in our group who didn't know. I wish someone had told me, I felt so foolish when I did find out, ages after it had happened. Eh, probably best to let her friends figure it out and tell her, your loyalty should lie with your friend - however shitty he is.

[2008]

42. that made me laugh out loud

"Tell freeper in person, so you can see her face, and bring a picture of him cheating too. and then LAUGH, really hard."

Not gonna do it, but it was fun imagining it.

[miss_kitty]

43. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

John sounds like a thorough asshat. A major liar and deceiver. Two women on the go, neither knowing about the other, an 'attractiveness' imbalance between the two, one a Thug, the other, hopeful?

Dude, your 'friend' is a Grade A, mofoin', glow-in-the-dark asshole. I hope someone kicks his ass.

You REALLY wanna be a friend to a CSer like this guy?

:shrug:

Look, if you have to think about it-it's not ethical to you. let this guy trip himself over his own inadequate dong. JMO

[2008]

44. could you explain again, without all the sugar-coating...?

But seriously, that's a stark way to put it, but it's hard to argue with.

12 years, though. And on three different occasions, he's saved me from major trouble.

He's been a great friend to me. It's his treatment of his wives and girlfriends that's been so bad.

[miss_kitty]

45. Yeah. I've picked some real creeps to be friends with

and I can appreciate having the knowledge of what someone (you like a lot) REALLY is and what they do to others.

Turns out, sometimes, they do it to you. Also, you ARE judged by the company you keep.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[welshTerrier2]

47. i really hesitate to offer advice here but ...

let's start by asking this question?

should it be John's choice whether he stays with Janet? the obvious answer is "Yes" ...

the fact that you don't like Janet does not give you the right to sabotage his relationship ... choosing to send an email about his weekend rendezvous with the knowledge that it might lead to alerting Janet about his infidelity puts you in the driver's seat and takes the choice away from your friend ... for that reason, following this course is not ethical ...

now, there is something you can do about how you feel about Janet ... I don't fully agree with the other posters who said you shouldn't get involved ... i think you have every right to discuss your feelings about Janet with your friend ... you need to handle a discussion like that in a very sensitive way ... John might not like it, but if you're willing to recognize that it's his call, not yours, he should at least respect you if you handle the discussion correctly ...

you need to make it clear that you value his friendship but that you want him to understand that you don't like spending time with him when Janet's around ... that's your right ... show your friend some respect by leaving the outcomes up to him ...

[crispini]

49. I got nothin'

But I enjoyed your post! :evilgrin:

No, seriously, the thread sounds like you've gotten some good advice here. Good luck.

[RevCheesehead]

50. with all due respect, this situation isn't about you.

and I would strongly advise that you let it go.

If you value John's friendship, and he later finds out what you did, you may soon lose that good friend for good. Let it go.

on edit:
You know who I feel for? Mary. She has no idea what "prize" awaits her.

[Lisa0825]

54. I can't be friends with someone I can't respect....

and I couldn't respect someone who treats women the way your friend does. I'd just stay out of it, and drop him.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

55. Stay out of it...

It'll all work itself out. I'm sure Mary's a distraction. If Janet is really a freeper, then he's probably not getting any, and Mary is willing to put out. I don't know if you're male or female, so my advice is kinda truncated.
Duckie

[Neshanic]

56. The fact you drive him to the airport to cheat speaks for itself.

Maybe it's just me but my friends do not ask me to do such things. Maybe I have unwittingly, but they have not told me.

Don't interfere. Do not plant anything.

When John comes back, you do need to have a talk about your friendship. Be prepared to not be a friend anymore because John's appendage makes his decisions, and when push comes to shove, why would he change anything? He has his facsist/dogfeeder/I am assuming, sex pal, and a sure thing sex pal that meets him in Atlantic City.

Nobody wants to be reminded of being a jerk, and your friend will not either.