which is a worse reflection on Scottish culture, Kilts or Flogging Molly?

[UpsideDownFlag]

i havent decided yet.

[MrScorpio]

1. Flogging Molly?

Pardon my ignorance!!

But what is that?

[UpsideDownFlag]

2. a scottish 'musical' group. nt

[jpgray]

3. Screaming Lord Byron's decaying corpse, and me (nt)

[HEyHEY]

4. I'll have to ask you not SHIT on my culture!

They aren't man-skirts. They are kilts.



That wasn't supposed to sound as tight assed as it probably does

[jpgray]

5. Dude! Whatsyer tartan?

[HEyHEY]

8. We don't have one

My aunt Lucy did the research a long time ago -(Seeing as how she was born in Scotland, it doens't make sense she wouldn't know)

We found out we were a clan of horsetheives and so we had not tartan.

On my mother's side though (Irish side) it is blue and green I believe.

[Maple]

10. There is no

'clan of horsethieves' and yes you have a tartan.

Easy to find on the web.

[HEyHEY]

12. No, my aunt did this in the 80s through a well-known researcher

That was his answer - the web is like a bathroom wall, I would never trust it with my gene research.
Though perhaps Ckan isn't the right word - either way, they were horsetheives

[Maple]

13. I'm sorry

but that's simply not true.

Your aunt was ripped off.

[HEyHEY]

14. Well, the guy was no hack - he was a professional and well-known

And if I recall she was very upset about the answer.
However, if you consider that she was born in Scotland, and didn't know what it was - perhaps they didn't have one. If you were born there in 1902, you'd think you would know the tartan.

(Oh, also, she's probably not my "aunt" she was my grandmother's sister I have no idea what that makes here)

[Maple]

15. She was ripped off

as any simple check would tell you.

And all you need for a tartan search is the family name.

If she is your grandmother's sister, she is your great-aunt.

[politicat]

17. Actually, clothing historians believe that most "clan tartans" are 18th &

19th century invention, spurred by George IV, Queen Vicky (the german) and her obsession with Scotland, and Sir Walter Scott and Robert Louis Stevenson. There are a few earlier tartans, but plaid is hard to weave on a hand loom, especially the types of looms that the highlanders would have had. Further, most of the colors of the modern tartans weren't available for wool production at the time, and most assuredly not available to the emergent middle class. Dyes aren't cheap, and natural dyes are rare in some of the more saturated colors.

Further, military historians find the idea of an easily recognizable garment being associated with a specific group to be dead foolish when related to the frequent, shifting and unpredictable skirmishing guerilla warfare of the battling clans. It was only when the clans were organized into units did something like a uniform become a good idea. (Also, the idea of uniforms was a fairly new one; the only people who wore anything like a uniform before the New Model Army of Cromwell were servants in livery and that a good way to cause a problem with your allies would be to put them in clothing that would make them feel like servants.....)

While there are tartans online, those are the 19th century tartans. Contemporary accounts of clothing from the 16th and 17th centuries make reference to cockades, ribbon knots and flowers-brooches as signifiers (often worn on the bonnet) but never to the tartans... even when the purpose of the text is to establish identity!!

Finally, the Scottish Historical Association stated in 1956 that there is no evidence of a system of individuated tartans before the 19th century. What little artistic evidence there is shows little consistency in the tartans and there is no documented link.

Sorry, Maple. It's an urban legend.

Sources are below....

Dunbar, J. Telfer. History of Highland Dress. Philadelphia: Dufour Editions, 1964.
Glen, Duncan, ed.  Whither Scotland?  London:  Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1971.
Grimble, Jan.  Scottish Clans and Tartans.  New York:  Tudor Publishing Co., 1973.
McClintock, Henry Foster. Old Irish and Highland Dress. Dundalk: Dundalgan Press, 1943.
Norris, Herbert.  Costume and Fashion:  The Evolution of European Dress through the Earlier Ages.  London:  J.M. Dent & Sons, Ltd., 1924.
Miller, Haswell (ed). Common Errors in Scottish History. Edinburgh: The Scottish Historical Association. 1956

[realisticphish]

19. thank you for substantiating my post

even if it was accidental. im too lazy to do the actual research :thumbsup:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Maple]

22. I'm sorry, but it's not an urban legend

There are Queen Victorian tartans...kitsch, and the ancient plaids...plain but quite distinctive, and easily made.

All militaries from the early middle ages on wore distinctive markings...hence coats of arms and heraldry.

Scots were easily distinguishable from the English in any case...hard to pass when you're wearing a kilt and speaking gaelic.

People get carried away, without doing much research.

There are bodies recovered in China of Celts wearing kilts...from centuries ago.

Quite distinct.

[realisticphish]

18. in truth

tartans dont mean squat anyway. most of them were just made up in the Victorian Era. it just wasnt a part of the clan culture. still, if she did have one, however unimportant, it would be nice to know. also something to consider, not every FAMILY had a tartan. a CLAN does. maybe she could find out what clan her family traditionally was in, and that would tell her. not all families had their own clans. and its possible her family wasnt even in a clan, though i find that unlikely. of course all of this is coming from someone who should by NO means be trusted. so i think this rambling post just totally wasted your time. sorry!

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Maple]

23. A family was part of a clan

either as the major family or as a sept.

Knowing the original name would tell you the clan they belonged to.

They can then use the clan tartan.

[MrScorpio]

6. I love redheaded girls with Scottish accents

Yum Yum

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. Flogging Molly = Irish, not Scottish.

And only the lead vocalist is Irish, I think.

Maybe you're thinking of Skyclad, who ARE Scottish.

[rucky]

9. bagpipes n/t

[HEyHEY]

11. Bagpipes are a glorious sound

[realisticphish]

25. agreed

and its not even in my blood...im french-german...


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

16. Kidney pie is pretty bad too. So is sheep scrapie.

both scottish inventions.

[Maple]

24. But venison and salmon

and lamb are delicious.

[miss_kitty]

20. Scotch whiskey rules. n/t

[PittPoliSci]

21. flogging molly is irish.

and so am i.

thus i am drunk.

[LastKnight]

26. if its not scottish...

ITS CRAP!!!!!!1!!!1(and i feel like adding a few more obligatory ones)111



no one remembers that snl skit?

-LK