We went over Calvinism today in my American Thought class

[Mr. Blonde]

why in the hell would anyone want to believe this shit? Honestly, what hope is there in a religion that tells you that you are saved based on the whim of God, and nothing you can actively have a part in. It seems like it kind of defeats the purpose of religion to me.

[donco6]

1. Ah, predestination.

Yeah. And while you're at it, check out the history of Calvin's Geneva. That's where we're headed, IMO.

[Reverend_Smitty]

4. Yeah he pretty much singlehandedly brought Geneva...

back into the dark ages for a time

[Reverend_Smitty]

2. It's a religion that favors the rich...

if you are successful and rich, then it is God's will and you shall be rewarded in heaven, however if you are poor...then you must not be one of the chosen ones. It's alot like the Republican party platform if you think about it.

Calvin himself was a bit of a nut job

[brentspeak]

42. Some Calvinists adhere to that philosophy

That material success is a predictor of spiritual success. But there's another line of thought in Calvinist theology, one that Calvin himself proposed: all predestined souls are granted with "saving grace" (ie. they will all be saved and go to heaven), but they are not necessarily granted "common grace", (ie. health, happiness, material success here on earth.) Calvin believed that God handed out common grace to anyone, whether they are predestined to heaven or doomed to hell (also called "reprobate".)

But you're right - Calvin was not a good man. He was personally responsible for sentencing to death at least 50 "heretics" during his tenure in Geneva, including his famous theological rival, Michael Servetus.

Myself - I think the biblical basis for predestination is flimsy at best.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. You've missed an important part about religion

though in sense, I believe you actually meant to say "Christianity", not religion.

Anyway...

it isn't about doing good works to curry favor with God so that one can be redeemed and enter heaven after being judged by that self-same God.

Though many in the fundy and rightwing Chritian camp would have you believe that. Though the rightwing part of christendom is difficult to understand, since out of one side of their mouth they say "justification by faith alone" (meaning, it's about belief, not our actions) and out the other side of their mouth say "Homos, abortionists, feminists, etc. are all going to hell!"

So I can understand your confusion.

And, as a Christian, I have to say I don't agree with Calvin so much - I can't get over his "saved by the whim of God; destined for hell by the whim of God" theology. I'm a "justification by faith" kind of guy, but at least with "works righteousness" you'd have a good sporting chance to affect your afterlife. With Calvin, you might as well believe or not believe, help people or note help them. Don't matter.

With Calvin, it's just up in the air. I couldn't have any hope as a Calvinist, and I'd find it stressful.

Universal salvation for me, thank you. Everybody gets in.

[Mr. Blonde]

7. I meant that faith was a hand that each person could take put

into their religion. In Calvinism you don't even need faith to go to heaven. I guess for someone in my position Calvinism is better because I have a 50/50 chance. Most other Protestant religions give me no chance.

[soothsayer]

5. what baffles me about calvinism is how it could lead to the protestant

work ethic.

To me, I LOVE calvinism cuz you could do whatever the hell you wanted---rape, murder, pillage, gamble, drink, fornicate---and not incur the wrath of God one whit!

How they took it in the other direction boggles the mind. Calvinism is a free pass to do whatever the heck you want!

[Reverend_Smitty]

10. This is my theory...

since religion has been ingrained into our culture since man crawled from the caves...Calvinists want everyone on "earth" to think that they were one of the chosen ones. The way to do that is to look as if you are one by being a successful businessman, having many possessions, and otherwise seeming "godly". Those who committed debauchery were perceived as one of the "unsaved"...it's all about keeping up appearances on an earthly plane...

thats just MHO

[sir_captain]

12. That's not totally wrong

Calvinists believed in predestination, and theoretically believed that they needed to live up to the faith that God had placed in them when he chose to save (some) of them. This is where Jonathan Edwards' famous speech "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" comes in--he felt that his parisioners had become too complacent in their roles as predestined souls and were not living up to their moral duty.

[soothsayer]

16. Right, but why on earth do I need to show anyone I'm chosen or not?

If i REALLY believe in Calvinism, who cares what the heck YOU think? If you know what I mean.

But it wasn't really about letting others know you were one of the chosen---it was about reassuring oneself that one was chosen. Cuz humans have a tremendous need to know these things about themselves. So if you were successful on earth, mebbe it meant you were one of the chosen.

[Reverend_Smitty]

20. Exactly...

we humans are incredibly insecure, we have a need to believe that we are important and will live forever in some respect...thats part of the reason why we created religion in the first place. We need to feel that we have some place to go after we die.

I want to believe in God...and I am on the fence on this issue if I can believe in a higher being, it's an issue that will take a lot of soul searching on my part. So I don't mean to be insensitive to people who do wholeheartedly believe in God when I talk about religion.

[Noodleboy13]

18. Bingo

Hard-core republicanism is essentially Calvinism-lite. It uses the trappings of financial success as a social signifier of accomplishment and/or merit. People fall into the logical trap that simply because someone owns a 500k McMansion in the suburbs and drives a Navigator that they must 'be right.' Counter-culture folks like me who live in a city and don't own cars are assumed to be morally and intellectually inferior or "not living in the real world." It effectively infatilizes those who choose not to conform.

Thinking about it used to get me worked up, but then I realized it really isn't worth it. The Noodleboy is still quite happy, no matter what some flabby suburbanites might think.


a punk in the hand of an angry god,
Noodleboy

[sir_captain]

38. your sign-off

"a punk in the hand of an angry god," ironically refers to the document that demonstrates why your view of Calvinism is a vast oversimplification...

[Noodleboy13]

39. Yes. Yes it does.

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

19. Are you saying you want to rape,murder and pillage?

I doubt it but that didn't sound too good...sounded like a repug.

[Xipe Totec]

37. Applying Logic To Religion

is like chopping firewood with a surgical knife. It can be done, theoretically, but it makes for slow progress and ruins the tool.

[Rowdyboy]

6. I really believe wholeheartedly in Calvin

and Hobbes...They're my favorite strip

[Mr. Blonde]

8. A clear cut example of quitting while one is ahead if you ask me. n/t.

[Bob2112]

35. Woo Hoo! Good One! nt

[LoZoccolo]

9. Sometimes troubling, yes, but think about it this way...

...it then means that you are not supposed to be self-righteous or think yourself superior to anyone because you did nothing to be saved. And to in turn give things to people even when you think they don't deserve them or did nothing to incur favor from you. But to be honest, I think Calvin himself may have been fixated on the parts that were troubling to him.

[Mr. Blonde]

11. So be a good person

funny how no religion has quite mastered getting its followers to get that basic concept. Yet, to many people (at least where I'm from) immorality and a lack of religion are nearly synonyms and I don't find it to be the case.

[Reverend_Smitty]

14. I don't think that it is religion that is the problem...

It's more or less the leaders that have bastardized the original intent of the religion for whatever reason (most likely personal, political or financial gain) over the years. I don't know of one religion (including Christianity at it's heart) that doesn't preach be a good person as one of it's main tenets...I draw a lot of my morals from religion, but my own interpretation of them not what religious leaders tell me to think

[Mr. Blonde]

17. I forget the exact quote from Dogma but

the one about how it is better to have ideas than beliefs. An idea is easier to change than a belief. This another place where I feel that religion is generally useless, at least the protestant version of it. Since the clergy are no more holy than the lay person why do we need them? Why can't everyone study the bible in the way they personally choose? It seems like that would make it a lot easier to take than having someone stand up every week and tell me what to think.

[sir_captain]

13. Not really

religion is all about having faith, and Calvinism is simply a very strong version of that. It's not as if Calvinists were encouraged to misbehave--on the contrary, as a (potentially) saved person, every Calvinist had a moral duty to live up to God's standards while on earth--and this is where the Protestant Work Ethic comes from.

[Mr. Blonde]

15. I know they weren't encouraged to misbehave, and

it is hard to comprehend the differences between their society and ours, but all the same. I don't see where the great desire to be a good person is. It seems that the logical conclusion to Calvinist thought is to realize that religion is pointless and to live how you want to live.

[sir_captain]

22. Where does the desire to be good come from

now? It seems to me that in today's ultra-capitalist society, the logical conclusion is that being good is pointless and will make one the least amount of money. I think the desire to be a good human being can only come from an inner sense of morality, and I don't really see how Calvinism isn't essentially just a way of providing a framework for that morality.

That said, I have no interest in it myself. ;-)

[Mr. Blonde]

24. A good upbringing?

And I don't think a good upbringing requires religion. In regards to being a tolerant person it sure seems like it would help to not include religion.

[sir_captain]

27. I'm not a religious person myself

but it seems to me that you are actually (ironically) showing intolerance towards religion. You are absolutely right that a good upbringing can help to instill inner morality--and for some people, Calvinists included, part of that upbringing included faith in a higher power and someplace better than the earth. Does a good upbringing require that faith? Of course not... But can it include it? Sure, why not?

In terms of tolerance, I don't really buy it--most people in the world are pretty damn intolerant, and a hefty percentage of them are not religious.

[Mr. Blonde]

29. I'm not intolerant of religion

I'm proud of people who can believe. I can't do it, but I'm not about to try and convince them they are wrong. Intolerance is practiced by everyone, but more often than not in the US it is practiced in the name of religion.

[sir_captain]

33. Well, I can't really disagree with you there

though I would bet a lot of money that intolerant religious Americans would still be intolerant if they weren't going to church every sunday

[Book Lover]

21. Hey, it takes all responsibility out of your hands

Sounds like something lots of folks would be into, even if there was the off chance that God would condemn you to torture forevermore.

[Mr. Blonde]

23. So I have wondered about this as well

Why exactly is hell a bad place? It seems like the devil is in charge there and so why would he desire to punish people any more than God does? Also won't all the cool people be in Hell? You have to figure most rock stars and celebrities will be in hell, shouldn't it be like 24 hour party instead of torture.

[Book Lover]

25. Don't ask me - I'm an atheist

I thought my first reply was overly smarmy - I don't want to go overboard :-)

[Mr. Blonde]

26. I don't think I'm quite an atheist, and not an agnostic exactly

either because while I don't have much of a problem with there being a God, it would seem to me that he doesn't give a shit. Not to mention if there is a God, why would I want to follow one who has all the issues that the Christian God has.

[sir_captain]

28. It is a misconception that Calvinists had no responsibility

for their actions. As a book lover, I suggest you go read Jonathan Edwards' speech "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God."

[Book Lover]

31. It was

just a quick smart-ass reply. No retort necessary :-)

[sir_captain]

32. hehe...sorry

:-)

[Book Lover]

36. Hey, I'm always

on the lookout for a new read; thanks :-)

[alfredo]

30. Isn't bush a Calvinist or a Hyper Calvinist?

I seem to remember that.

[brentspeak]

41. Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church

Methodism, as conceived by John Wesley, is almost the total opposite of Calvinism, as the former posits "free grace", ie. salvation is not at all predestined. Wesley was a very vocal opponent to Calvinist theology.

On another note, it's strange that Bush is a member of the UMC, one of the most liberal mainline denominations. Even more strange - Bill Clinton is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.

[Mr. Blonde]

43. It seems like I remember Clinton going to Methodist services.

My very conservative mother tells me the Methodists (shes a member) are almost too liberal for her blood. However, she has some deep seeded hate of Baptists who are the most conservative I can think of.

[brentspeak]

44. Clinton most likely was doing the "church rounds"

For campaigning or such, kind of like when Bush visits a mosque.

[Mr. Blonde]

45. I can understand that

also being a member of a church doesn't mean that is the one you attend. It is easy to understand why someone running for political office in Arkansas would join the Southern Baptist Church.

[alfredo]

47. Isn't there a radical splinter group of

the UMC?

[Bob2112]

34. Yeah, but the Stuffed Tiger is Really Funny. :) eom

[JVS]

40. It appeals to my "it is so scary that it must be true" side

The idea that I may be damned and cannot even hope to beg for mercy seems to resonate with past experience.

[Pied Piper]

46. As an alumnus of Calvin College...

...I'd like to weigh in here.

Although an agnostic now, I grew up Presbyterian, which frankly, is a great Wonder Bread Protestant denominition. Fairly benign. I was raised to take care of families who were suffering (my mom was the ring-leader for food donations for families who had suffered a recent death, she was on the church's prayer chain, and as a family, we took great care to visit the suffering: nursing home patients, etc.) I always believed that is what Christians do.

I transferred into Calvin in my junior year. I had spent the previous years at a state university, but I was unhappy with the particular program in which I was enrolled. Since my parents lived in Grand Rapids, I could live at home to finish my degree. I received an outstanding education at Calvin, but I was absoulutely appalled at the hypocracy exhibited by the faculty, staff, and even my fellow students.

We did all of the traditional college misbehaving: drinking, dancing (gasp), and I even knew an unmarried couple who lived together (the horror!) with another guy as their roommate. The girl didn't know that the two guys were sleeping together. But on Sunday morning, all three went to church together, so apparently the everything was ok, as long as they sang in the choir.

There was an enormous attempt to "integrate faith with learning." Not that there's anything wrong with that, but 2+2=4, and I'm not doing this homework for the glory of God, for crying out loud! If you're a Muslum, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, or even an athiest, 2+2 still equals 4.

I have to say this certainly changed my idea of what X-tianity was all about. In Matthew 6:5-15, Jesus tells his followers to basically not make a "scene" when praying, and they should go in their closet for privacy in prayer. The sample prayer which he gave as an example is now known as the "Lord's Prayer," and it is now learned by rote and recited every Sunday in churches around the world. Talk about missing the point!

Thomas Jefferson is reported to have said that the Christian Bible should only consist of the words printed in red; the rest should be consigned to the dustbin. I tend to agree.

My experiences since I left Calvin College and Grand Rapids have led me to believe that many (most?) X-tians are not the least bit interested in following Jesus's teachings: turn the other cheeck, take care of the poor, the hungry, those in prison, etc. They are more concerned with the lastest tax cut (without even thinking for a moment who gets the biggest cut, but that's a topic for another post). I know many people who try to follow those words, but they certainly don't consider themselves to be Christians. I count myself among them.

In trying to sum this all up, I think that the whole Calvinist doctrine of predestination is a steaming pile. "We have been chosen; our sins are forgiven." It allows them to avoid any responsibility for their actions. That may not have been Calvin's original intentions, but that is how they have developed in the last several hundred years.

Pied Piper