"Spare the rod, spoil the child" Your thoughts...

[LiberalVoice]

My sister was visiting my family and we got into the discussion of "disciplining your children". She made a statement that she belived that if you didn't not reprimand your child with a "beating" when they did something wrong, then he/she would not respect you and grow up being either spoiled or a criminal. Well I flipped the fuck out and told her that I sincerely hope she changes her opinions before she has children. That hitting a child does not instill respect, but rather makes them afraid.

I was abused for many years as a chid by my step father and have gotten into quite a bit of trouble int the past for beating the crap out of someone who was hitting his child in public.

The child wanted Ice cream or something and began crying so the father decided a good spanking was in order. When I said something to him he decided he was going to pretend like I was one of his kids and instill in me a little bit of good old fashion fear. He put his hands on me and I gave him a taste of what his son felt like.

To me, their is absolutly not reason why anyone should have to put their hands on a child. It is a dispicable act of cowardess. It's like bullying soeone smaller then you.

I don't have any children and I was curious as to what some other peoples opinions were. Parents or not...

[TOhioLiberal]

1. I've never hit my kids....

they are now 20 and 17, and fine young men. They are neither spoiled nor criminal.

[AlCzervik]

2. I have an almost 10 year old

and we have never hit her. Maybe it's because i only have one but she's never given me cause to lose my temper so bad i felt the need to strike her. She's a good girl, A- student, Girlscout, treehugger, righter of wrongs, bleeding heart. I dont think children learn anything by being hit except maybe to fear the hitter. To each his/her own.

[philosophie_en_rose]

3. It seems to reinforce a kind of mental laziness.

I think that children deserve to be children. They should have the chance to grow and make mistakes, without the fear of a beating. However, they should also understand that they are part of a world with many other people and that, most likely, they are very lucky. They should have real opportunities and security, but should also be pushed towards challenges.

Beating with a stick is not very inspirational. I'm not adamantly against corporal punishment, but it seems that purely physical punishments only reinforces that powerful people can hurt the weak. It also doesn't teach much. Children learn about the stick, and become motivated only by the stick.

[No2W2004]

4. I've had a difficult time in the past with my kids

only because I was the only one who paid attention to our them. My ex would just let them run wild while all she did was sit and scream at them. They, in turn, thought that was funny and since they knew she wasn't going to get up, they just egged her on more! When I got home from work, they stuck with me. Kids don't need to be hit, either physically or verbally. They need structure. They need to have a simple set of rules, and consequences when those rules are broken. Mine get their playstation time cut, or their TV time cut. This works great now that my ex isn't influencing them anymore, but if one has a dysfunctional house, it just makes things much worse. That's when kids grow up to be "a criminal."

[LiberalTechie1337]

5. I am against physical punishment

I don't have any kids yet, so it is more of a philosophical question. But I think that physical punishment teaches a person nothing. Thoughtful consideration of one's mistakes is a much better response, in my opinion.

[mkultra]

6. I agree with the quote

But i think it means something different.

I believe the quote refers to the rod of rulership or authority.

In other words, i think that children need guidance from the parents in the form of approval and disapproval when appropriate. Physical violence is rarely necessary if ever.

And i think you should never spank your infants or toddlers as they don't understand the connection. Those ages require redirection.

Just for the record, i have 3 children with another on the way. They are all well disciplined and very happy.

[spotbird]

16. The sheep follow the he shepherd's rod.

The metaphor means that without adequate leadership the child will go astray. The interpretation that the rod is to be used strike the child is incorrect.

[stopbush]

24. You are absolutely correct. Shepherds don't beat on their sheep with

their rods. They use the rod as a directional device to move the sheep in a desired direction. There's no hitting involved.

In that sense, it's a good moral. When it's misinterpreted to allow sadists to flail their kids, it's a bad moral.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

36. No...Shephards use dogs...

who, when their sheep start to do something the dog doesn't like, will bite them on the leg and get them back in formation. Just saw something about it on animal planet this weekend.
Duckie

[Nevernose]

7. Let's discuss "negative reenforcement" vs "punishment"

Punishment, according to virtually every credible study ever conducted, doesn't work -- especially not in the long term.

Negative reenforcement (Taking away something a person wants) works fairly well, and works in the long term.

Positive reenforcement (rewarding when something is doen well) works best.

A consistent use of these methods by any parent will prove it.

That having been said, I have swatted my kid's rear a few times. Traumatized her, because she's not used to it, and traumatized me. Watching someone helpless cry because you've spanked them is a shitty feeling.

I suspect that anyone who truly believes that "Sparing the rod is spoiling the child" takes secret pleasure from adminstering the rod and must be a sadist; kind people couldn't do that to someone they love, especially if there was an alternative method of discipline.

[Jim Warren]

8. Parent here

Since you asked, my opinion:

Kids should never be hit, period!

It's the parent's job to be the adult and know how to handle kids without ever hitting them.

I think it was Greg Brown who wrote/sang "If we really loved the children, we wouldn't live this way"

[tigereye]

9. another parent opposed to spanking

hitting kids has never made amy sense to me. Why would anyone hit their child to make them listen? Makes no sense and seems cruel as well. We use time-out and loss of privileges. Seems to work fine.

[Nevernose]

11. That's what I'm sayin'

Negative reinforcement. Works every time.

[patcox2]

66. I have seen people nearly ruined by negative reinforcement.

One boy I knew, his parents would figure out the things he loved, the activities he wanted to do, his dreams and goals, and then take those things away as punishment.

The kid's response was to become secretive and fatalistic, he would never tell anyone what he wanted, what made him happy, what he loved, for fear that someone would take it away. And I also think he stopped wanting, lost all ambition, all desire, again because he had been taught, very effectively, that anything he desired would only be taken away.

I think corporal punishment is okay, but there is a big difference between correcting a child, getting his or her attention, and abusing and beating a child.

It works very well with animals, and does not make them mean (again, unless it crosses the line to abuse) and I think that now that our society does not have so much contact with animals, people don't see the difference between abuse and physical correction. Kids can be little animals.

As for the proposition that spankings teach them violence, I can't imagine a parent thinking that children have to be taught violence. Children are not perfect pure little creatures who are corrupted by adults, they are little egotistical selfish monsters, and are often mean and violent, unless they are trained. Watch a roomful of preschoolers for a while, their favorite words are "mine" and "no," they steal, they attempt to hoard, and they routinely use violence to get what they want, they taunt and they often laugh sadistically when they make another child cry. I think the world has it backwards, people thinking that parenting involves getting out of the way and letting them blossom. They will blossom all right, but into what I don't know. I think they have to be taught to become socialized.

[noahmijo]

10. Don't have kids but will never hit them when I do

I was hit alot growing up, and I'm not going to subject my kids to the same screaming and hitting that I was exposed to.

At the same time I'm not into this "they're all little angels no matter what" I do believe in taking away priveleges sitting them down and talking straight with them (if they are old enough to understand me of course) but hitting them is never a solution, It only pisses them off and makes them want to rebel against you even more.

Plus I'd have too much love for them to cause them physical pain.

[Radical Activist]

12. I think you can tell a lot about a persons character

by how they threat their children or their pets. I was just saying that to someone today. People who beat their children are scum.

[SarahB]

13. Even the frequent interpretation of that quote is wrong.

In earlier times, the "rod" was an analogy relating to how the shepherds would GUIDE the sheep with the rod. The shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep. Another Bible quote that probably has some useful thoughts when you understand the context of the times it was written, but is often misused by wackos, in this case to beat their kids. It is about providing your children with guidance and direction, not beatings. :grr:

I should note, I generally have to resemble a drill sargeant or I'd otherwise be stomped on. Clear rules, following through with consequences that are appropriate, etc., but hitting- not a good idea for the most part.

[put out]

21. His rod and his staff, they comfort me.

A staff, to keep the helpless on the good path, to take them to food and still waters, and lead them to safe places where they may rest. The rod, to drive away predators who would endanger the helpless ones given to our care.

My take on biblical scripture. I am grateful to read so many who seem to interpret this in a similar way.

[stopbush]

25. The rod guides the sheep while the staff provides a steady

brace (ie: climbing stick) to get one over the rough areas.

Many Xtians, however, see them as weapons...

[noonwitch]

35. Proverbs 23:13-14

Withold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell".

I think that it's pretty clear that this is Solomon telling people to beat their children with rods as discipline-not use the rods and staffs to lead and guide them.

I don't think it's okay to beat your children, but the Bible allows for it and encourages it, at least in the Old Testament.

[yellowcanine]

43. Of course in that same book it says "the wringing of the nose bringeth

forth blood." It is hard to take too seriously someone who would bother to point out such an astounding truth.

[noonwitch]

45. Unfortunately, people take it very seriously

I don't bother quoting the Bible to child beaters because of the verse I quoted earlier. (I work in children's services) I tell usually tell them, fine, the Bible says it's okay to beat your children. I'm not here on a biblical mandate, but on a government and societal one. The people of this state and the legislators have decided via a democratic process that it is not permissible by law to physically discipline your child in any way that leaves marks on their skin, breaks bones or causes any kind of serious injury. If the law is a problem for you, I encourage you to contact you legislator's office.

The issue doesn't come up as much as it used to, possibly because churches are no longer emphasizing these verses when discussing parenting. There's more of a focus on Mary and Joseph as parents, which is better. Joseph took paternal responsibility for a child he did not father (in his society, this was a major thing), they fled to Egypt to avoid Herod's slaughter-there isn't a whole lot more in the Bible about Jesus' childhood.

[yellowcanine]

64. The OT is a lousy place to look for parenting advice. Lot offered up his

daughters as prostitutes, Abraham tried to sacrifice his son Isaac, one guy (forget his name) killed his daughter because she was the first one to greet him when he got home and he had sworn an oath to do this. Children in general, as well as wives were pretty much property to be used and traded - except for that all important eldest son, of course.

[put out]

40. Thank you for making this more clear for me.

I do not want children to be hit.

[DBoon]

14. We don't have kids

but would never hit our dog. You strike a dog, you teach it to fear your raised hand.

Similar to what you teach a child by beating him/her?

Everything I know about leadership I learned from my dog:

- You need to establish your authority through your own confidence in the correctness of your actions (a dog can tell a wimp a mile away).

- Rewards work better than punishment. Rewards boil down to treats and praise (and believe me, my dog's treats are worth more than the stock options I've gotten as rewards)

- Only ask a dog to do what they can understand.

- Be entirely consistent. Inconsistency shows lack of leadership, and just confuses them.

[Susang]

15. I agree with you 100%

So does the majority of the data that exists on this topic. There recently was a meta-study that examined all of the research and studies available on spanking, whether it was effective, what the long term effects were, etc.. Here's a quote from the American Psychological Association:

snip:
Corporal punishment was significantly associated with all 11 endpoints, including poorer moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent and mental health--as well as increased rates of abuse by a parent in childhood aggression, criminal or antisocial behavior, and abuse of own child or spouse in adulthood. What the results don't mean, says Gershoff, is that all spanked children will develop the negative outcomes she studied.

Gershoff did find one positive association with spanking: children were more likely to immediately comply with their parents' direction right after being spanked. However, there were also inconsistencies with this finding: Of the five studies that examined corporal punishment and a child's compliance immediately after, one found no relationship and one found a negative relationship.

Even if children do comply in the short-term--for example, by stopping kicking their little sister--Gershoff's analyses show they probably aren't internalizing the "moral message" of the spanking--that it's not appropriate to hurt people.

"By itself, it doesn't teach why children shouldn't engage in the misbehavior or what they should do instead," argues Gershoff. "Instead, it teaches that you don't want to misbehave when the parent is around."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep02/corporal.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Yep...violence doesn't work

even my dog responds better to positive conditioning than to punitive measures.....someone should tell the private prison industry this...but even on DU you get called soft on crime if you make the point that MOST prisoners ARE rehabilitatable.

[Susang]

23. You're soft on crime

Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;-)

[Paragon]

17. Beat the little buggers before I do!

I'm kidding. :silly:

[Ready4Change]

19. Not a Parent, mixed opinion here.

I can't recall my parents ever hitting me or my siblings. But I do remember one time all of us got a spanking. The whole family recalls it, although no one knows what sparked it off. However, we all agree us kids did something very naughty (as in mischevious) and then ran away from my Dad in fine coordination. There ensued probably 15 minutes of screaming scampering kids, with my Dad catching us one by one, tucking us under his arms and chasing down the next. We were all laughing madly, and I recall tears of laughter running down my Dads cheeks as he caught me. Once he had us caught, the first spanking began.

And that's when he discovered the books we all had down our pants. He laughed so hard we all got away again, and had to be caught again, and then we really did get spanked.

It's one of our favorite family memories, and if you think it's horrific, you're adding your own brutal embellishments that just don't belong.

So, do I believe in daily beatings leading to emergency room visits? Of course not.

However, do I believe in punishing someone who is old enough to know something is wrong and consciously chooses to do so any way? Darn right I do.

As I seem to be the only one here not responding with total recoiling horror at the idea of a once in a lifetime spanking, I'm expecting I may be about to face some outrage. Before you flame on, recall that I'm not defending breaking bones, skin, bruising, or applying mental abuse. I'm saying that some kids, who knowingly and consciously over step their boundaries, deserve and even EXPECT a swat in the behind.

[LiberalVoice]

20. No flame here...

But the situation you just described seemed more comical to me then anything else. In most situations though their is alot of shouting, crying, and very bad feelings on both sides.

Don't you think that all situations can be remedyed without having to spank/put your hands on a child?

Much repect,

Zak

[Ready4Change]

27. Thanks Zak.

It was comical. But we did all get spanked in the end. (Wince. Sorry about that.)

Can all things be remedied non-physically? Probably. Should/must they all be handled non-physically? I don't believe so. I bear no lasting harm from my spanking. I don't rob banks, and I don't torture small animals.

And I've witnessed great harm done by some non-physical treatments The details aren't mine to tell, but they lead me to this conclusion. It doesn't matter whether a person has been beaten or been told day in and out by their parents they are worthles. The mental scars are still there, and those are the cruelest hurt. So I prefer less focus on "non-physical" and more focus on "non-abusive" in these matters.

[Susang]

26. I don't know if you read my earlier post

But my issue with it is, it just doesn't really work in the long term. You are right that a spanking doesn't necessarily mean permanent psychological damage, but unfortunately, you don't always have a way of knowing which child will be okay with it and which child it might harm.

My parents spanked me and I have mixed feelings about how it affected me. I wasn't spanked hard or often. However, I was a very sensitive and somewhat fearful child from the get go. I tend to believe that spanking made that characteristic worse. I've been disproportionately afraid of physical violence ever since. I also cannot stand being hit, even in jest.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, that based on the research that I studied, and my own personal circumstances, I just don't see that corporal punishment is really worth all the trouble it can potentially cause, especially since it has been shown not to teach the child anything other than the fact that you can inflict your will on others with force.

[Ready4Change]

28. I'm sorry for your experience.

It's sounds like your parents didn't understand your nature, didn't understand they had other options, or both.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid of physical violence. That actually shows good sense.

If I can ask, do you recall why you were spanked? Or how serious your actions needed to be to bring it about?

In my case, it was crystal clear I and my siblings KNEW what we were doing. We even premeditatedly put books down our pants to blunt the spankings we knew we'd get.

It would have been far, far different, had we been getting spankings for unclear, unexplained, or unpredictable reasons. I don't wish that on anyone.

[Susang]

57. Oh, I knew exactly why I was being spanked

I'm sure my parents considered the offenses serious at the time. I wouldn't call them serious by any stretch of the imagination. Usually it was because I "talked back" or did something I was told not to do, crimes of willfulness. One time it was because I touched the channel knob on the television set.

And it would be unfair to blame my parents, as it was the 60s/early 70s and they were following the best advice they were given. Dr Spock and his child rearing theories were not as fully embraced back then as we'd like to think, particularly in the Polish-American inner city community. I realize that they had many stressors and not much information to help them.

Also, when I say I am disproportionately afraid of physical violence, I mean exactly that. It is out of proportion, exaggerated. I'm not talking about what you called your basic "good sense". I'm talking irrational fear.

My parents fully understood my sensitive nature, particularly my mother, as she probably as sensitive herself, but they were operating on the general assumption that corporal punishment "toughened up" children and instilled discipline and character. Instead, as decades of research has shown, it instills fear and potentially creates bullies and abusers.

When there are so many forms of behavior modification that are shown to work, my point is, why bother with one that is proven not to? I know that no spanking ever stopped me from mouthing off the next time. As a matter of fact, it made me want to do it even more, out of sheer defiance.

[HEyHEY]

22. I'm all about the spanking

But MY kids would never do anything worthy of it :P

[demwing]

29. It's not appropriate for the very young, or for teens

nor for all children in all circumstances

But a mild spanking is often the only thing that works short term for some kids, because some kids either refuse or are unable to make the connection that some behavior is seriously anti-social, or potentially dangerous.

The problem is when parents use spankings as their first or only method of correction, or when the spankings progress beyond the mild. The goal is not to beat hell out of your children, but to lay a foundation of love and lead the children towards positive behavior, while teaching them that certain behaviors will create an immediate, and progressively negative effect

[arwalden]

30. This Is One Issue Where I Actually AGREE With Dr. Phil...

SPANKING IS HITTING! SLAPPING IS HITTING!DO NOT HIT CHILDREN!

-- Allen

Only the people in this administration deserve to be hit and slapped and spanked.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

37. Unless you like it...then as long as it's pleasureable...SPANK AWAY!

LOL
Duckie

[arwalden]

77. Wait A Minute... Who Changed The Subject To Adults???

Now that's a different thing entirely.

-- Allen <--- has been very bad.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

82. LOL I was just being naughty...

[Misunderestimator]

31. I have had a very similar experience

Similar background, brother following the pattern of abuse with his kids, no children myself, and I absolutely FLIP OUT if I see anyone hit a child. I got someone arrested in NYC when he got off a bus at the same time as I, with his child in tow, yelling at her... he started pulling his belt off and I hit overdrive... ran to the nearest payphone and called 911, while watching him hit her... after one hit, he was surrounded by other people yelling at him and trying to grab his belt (that was a good thing to see). He picked up the child and got away from them. I followed him across the street, and when I saw a police car coming, I stood in the middle of Broadway flagging them down and yelling and pointing at the man, who started to come after me. The officers managed to bring him down after he broke one of their wrists. I was a wreck that day.

Took me a long time to reconcile that kind of "discipline." All you parents... remember that you'll be imprinting this on your child for life.

[johnnie]

32. I don't have children..

So I can't tell you what I will do. I am not a violent person and I doubt that I would spank my kids, but who knows?
I am reading these other posts and wondering about all these "studies". I was a little shit as a child. My father used the belt and other forms of physical punishment, it didn't work. He also took away my privileges, and that still didn't work. I was afraid of what would happen when my father got home, but I did shit anyway. My father was a strict disciplinary and it probably came mainly from being a life long Marine, I don't know. I do believe that these so-called studies are a load of crap. Just from my observations, there are no certain ways to raise a child. I don't freak out when I hear that some youngster got a smack on the ass. I get very saddened when I hear about extreme abuse toward a child.
I think it was wrong of you to step in on what that father was doing. If there is one thing I have learned..it's that you don't tell people how to raise their children. If you would have seen extreme cruelty, then I would have said to step in. What you saw was a spanking.
I know these aren't popular beliefs around here, but I am speaking from my experience and a pain in the ass child. And I will say that I turned out fine. I don't become violent. I have gotten in three fights in my 40 years of life (and didn't start one of them). I have a good job, my own house, many friends and I am a pretty laid back person. I have a great relationship with my parents and I have told them that they did a great job raising me. We laugh about some of the shit I did, but I don't blame them for anything that happens in my life.

[LiberalVoice]

80. I suppose spanking was a bad word to use.

When I see a gorwn man/woman slapping a child in the face to the point of leaving big red welts I have no choice in my mind to say something. The man was obviously a violant person because rather then talk it out with me his first thoughts were to beat me like he was his child. I don't care who you are or what I may have done to piss you off. You put your hands on me and I flip out. Too many years of being degraded and treated like shit both physically and emotionally have taught me that if you allow it to happen once it'll keep happening.

[johnnie]

88. I agree

I'm sorry for assuming it was a smack on the ass. I'm not saying it is right to hit, but my thought of spanking is a slap on the ass.
If I saw someone doing what you said you saw to a child, I would step in also.

[Hubert Flottz]

33. If Lindie England's mom had busted her ass, she wouldn't have

grown up to be all Gung-H0! I think that "REASONABLE Discipline" is important to anyone who raises a child! It's how kids learn right from wrong! When the teachers lost control of the classrooms, because of over regulating, you started seeing the results in the school shootings and the rise of substandard grades!

That being said, when my kids were into mischief, I'd usually join them, instead of beating them!

[Misunderestimator]

56. I'm willing to bet that Lyndie England DID receive such "discipline"

And probably DID have her butt busted. That might partially explain why she DID WHAT SHE DID.

What an odd argument to say that if she had been hit when she was a child, she would KNOW not to hit anyone as an adult. UH - HUH. right.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. Nothin' says "I love you" like a belt to the buttocks

I am OBVIOUSLY kidding. I was never physically disciplined and I turned into a dirty liberal so - you do the math!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

38. I won't get into the arguement except to tell you what my boss says...

"Show your kids you love them. Bust their butts." He has some awesome kids. I'm not going to go into if I agree or disagree. Did that before. It's not worth it.
But I will say, please do not site studies on the subject, because they are all over the place. We recently talked about it in my clinical psych class, and every study we studied was different. There is no conclusive evidence one way or another about spanking.
Duckie

[Beware the Beast Man]

39. I felt bad enough when I slapped my cat

for biting me. It was a knee-jerk reaction, and I felt guilty. Couldn't imagine if it was a kid. Fortunately, I'm equipped with a booming voice and large frame, so if anything, I can intimidate if needed :evilgrin:

[DemWitch]

41. When I was a kid...

I had two chances at redemption...

Mom would say "Eric"... and I should stop doing what I was not supposed to be doing or start doing what I was supposed to be doing.

If I didn't she would say

"Eric Shawn"

No third time. I got popped if I didn't react after the second warning. I only got popped twice.

However, once I was in my teens, and was much bigger than she, she took to twisting my earlobe to get my attention instead of popping me one. Well when I was 16 I got my ear pierced against her wishes. She forgot and twisted away one day and tore the earring out, ripping my earlobe to shreds. It was the last time she did it. And, playing the massive abusive mother guilt card... I parlayed that action into a set of really nice mags (for the younger set, mags were the precursor to "custom wheels") and set of tires for my Super Sport (again, for the younger set, a late 60's early 70's Chevy that besides a Mustang was the only cool thing to drive in the late 70's and early 80's)

I didn't feel I was abused in anyway... and I respect her opinion to this day.

[Az]

42. Simply put it teaches children that violence is a viable solution

What a child learns from beatings is that sometimes it is necissary to hit things to make them comply. A child's business is learning from its parents and teachers what tools to bring with them as they mature and enter the world on their own. Beating a child teaches them that sometimes you give up seeking a peaceful solution and simply beat your problem into compliance.

[demwing]

48. A spanking is not a beating

Beating a child is insane.

Spanking a child is a corrective tool that should only be used as a last result when other methods fail, and the child's behavior is extreme.

[Misunderestimator]

55. Where do you draw the line between spanking and beating...

I had plenty of spankings that turned into beatings that turned into whippings with a belt. Adults can get carried away with the power and anger and whatever other shit they have inside and take it out on a kid. Why ever risk that?

And what is the amount of pressure and swing one should use to "spank" a small child, when the person delivering it is an adult male of 200 pounds and over six feet tall? Is there an instruction manual anywhere?

[Susang]

59. That is exactly when it shouldn't be used

My sister is a child psychologist, specializing in autism and developmental disorders. She deals with the most extreme behavior you could possibly imagine, from the children she is treating, as well as from their "normal" siblings. Spanking is the worst possible correction to what you call "extreme" behavior. It usually causes the children to lash out more. Particularly since that "extreme" behavior that you speak of can often be indicative of an underlying behavioral or medical problem that requires treatment.

[Az]

63. To the child's eye a spanking is violence

The entire point of spanking is to inflict shock and pain. From a neurological stand point the efficacy of spanking comes from the assoication of that pain as the consequences of their error. Because the mind records the emotional weight of an event it associates a strong negative reaction to the initiating event (their transgression).

The brain records other aspects of this as well. It learns that overpowering an individual is a potential means of controling them. It teaches them that if you do not have a peaceful means of controling the situation that a violent one is appropriate.

Spanking is effective in the same way torture is. It overrides their own personal desires with an emotionally overwhelming experience. Thus establishing a new thinking pattern. Spanking is torture.

[southpaw]

53. Agreed...

Physical punishment teaches:

"Bigger, stronger people can hit smaller, weaker people to make them do what they want them to do."

[The Flaming Red Head]

44. What if they

take a water gun and spray it at the control panel on your color TV and your VCR and stereo and ruin them and then run and laugh about it.

You wouldn't hit them?

I could never catch mine, but if I coulda, I woulda beat the shit out of the little brat.


You guys must have perfect kids. All the kids I know are wild. They would tie us all up and put us in a closet if we didn't take up for ourselves.

[Bridget Burke]

68. You raised the little monster.

You probably deserved it.

[The Flaming Red Head]

76. Burke

we might be related.


Oh and I raised him on my own while going to school, working, and donating plasma and going to the food pantry to make ends meet and they never did.

I actually rarely ever, ever touched him (I should have). I just hate perfect people.

[notadmblnd]

46. I have an 11yr old and a 13 yr old

and I've never struck either one of them. My motto is "I don't have to beat your butt cause you will beat it yourself." They've actually come back to me and told me my prophesy had been fufilled more than once. They've done some really stupid things in their short little lives and I've been so angry all I could do was laugh at them. Like the time my son axed the paint can. He was scared (unhurt) but he knew I would be mad because I had told him not to get dirty. The outline of his clothes from the paint spatter just kept cracking me up as I cleaned him off. But it was really my fault, I'm the parent, I should have been watching him.

What I've done with my children while growing has been to point out bad behaviour in other peoples children and their parents. If we saw a mother in the store yelling and smacking her kids, I would say things like "aren't you glad you don't have a mother like that"? Of course the passive agressive side would take over and I would say it loud enough for the mother to hear me. "I never understood why women bring children into the world (in this day and age no one has to) if they don't want them"? I've never had a parent continue abusing their child after one of these encounters either.

When my childrens behaviour has merited punishment, my secrect weapon is the couch in the livingroom. They are sent there to contemplate what the did and why it was wrong then they are to come talk to me about it when they are ready to get off the couch. There are no toys, books, tv's or other distractions in the livingroom so it's absollute hell there for kids.

Everyone has to get along at my house, no hitting, no roughhousing and no name calling is ever allowed. My house happens to be the neighborhood gathering place for the kids and I like it that way. It gives me the opportunity to know their friends and what they're capable of. When they have disagreements with other neighborhood children, all the neighborhood children go home not just the ones involved with the disagreement. All the neighborhood children know this and it motivates them to play nice. The cost to me is usually a loaf of bread a jar of peanut butter and all the strawberry jam I can make.

[arbusto_baboso]

47. If you spank your kids...

they'll just ENJOY being spanked as an adult. Just look at all the kinky Brits who attended English public schools where they were caned, and who now desperately PAY dominatrices for the same.

Those of who attended Catholic schools also have a few "hang ups".:evilgrin:

[kitkatrose]

49. Well, okay.

My mom spanked me whenever I did something really bad, like I could have hurt/killed myself. I never got whacked for the same thing twice so I guess it did work. I can say that it was probably one of the few things that would work on me, because you can take my stuff away for whatever period of time and I'll be fine; inconvienced, but overall fine. You can't take my mind from me, and that was my entertainment whenever I got grounded. I don't think you should spank for everything, it was a last resort around here, and I turned out pretty good if I do say so myself. :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. An unqualified, it depends. No, a child should not be beaten ever.

And definitely not for wanting an ice cream. But, if the child breaks a glass window after being told not to play ball in the backyard, a swat on the behind is not going to cause lasting damage, IMO, in most cases. I did not suffer any mental problems due to being spanked (again, not beaten) as a child. I also did not grow up to spank (or beat) my own children. Just don't get me started on the evils of "time outs".

We use the lecture route at my house, with pretty decent results...combined with the reward system. Nothing is a given. Currently, my daughter is not responsible enough to keep her room clean, or take care of the cat. These are her only two jobs. She will be of age to take driver's training next year. So far, she has not earned our signature on that permission slip.

[demwing]

51. Thanks for emphasizing the difference

again. A mild spanking is not a beating.

Beatings are insane. Mild spankings are tools that can be used to good effect, but not for every child, nor in every situation.

[The Flaming Red Head]

52. Columbine

i wonder what would have been different if the parents had beat the shit out of those little pricks the first time they acted up.

[chicaloca]

74. How do you know they didn't? n/t

[The Flaming Red Head]

75. Pipe bombs in the garage?

they didn't.

[LiberalVoice]

83. Then before they left their houses that morning...

they probably would have killed their parents too.

[The Flaming Red Head]

84. true

all the kids involved in these incidents came from two parent families and affluent homes.

[belladonna]

90. Do a little reading on serial killers and mass murderers

Then come back and tell us that with a straight face :eyes:

[The Analog Kid]

54. Never, never, never...

What a confusing message you send to a child when you beat them, then tell them you love them. Children don't act to piss you off, they act out of need or the inability to control emotions.

Love them, talk to them, never hit them.

[Solly Mack]

58. means to use

guidance as a tool of discipline/ and to fend of enemies

the rod and the staff guided the "kid" (or baby goat) back into line when they strayed off the path... wasn't used to hit the herd. The "rod" was also used to fight off predators of the herd....

so a parent uses the rod to protect the child and to guide the child but never to hit the child

"kid" translates into child because it was closes in meaning to "kid"...though a close translation into terms people could relate to, it also distorted the meaning.


a look at..pslams 23
:thy rod and thy staff comfort me" who in the hell takes comfort in being hit with a rod? but people can take comfort in protection from enemies and guidance...

[Commendatori]

60. It only works if it REALLY hurts, and that's the problem.

Find your kid's Achilles Heel (TV, X-Box, whatever) and play it like a violin.

[Misunderestimator]

62. Good point...

and glad we agree. :hi:

[HuckleB]

87. That's still just punishment.

And that doesn't work. Not if your aim is to teach, anyway.

[Taverner]

61. I don't believe in spanking

Not only does it instill fear, but it also teaches a child that they can get whatever they want through force and intimidation.

[bif]

65. Spare the cattle prod, spoil the child

Just kidding. We've never spanked our kids.

[The Flaming Red Head]

67. Jeeze yer all perfect

with perfect children and perfect yards and perfect opinions. What the hell am I doing here. Oh that's right, damn

I'm a democrat, too, imagine that, a pro-choice, pro-child beating democrat in your midst.

I don't fit in here, but I think I'll stick around anyway.

[Beaverhausen]

69. interesting story in the LA Times Magazine last Sunday

http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-kids28jul11,1,1981388.story?coll=la-headlines-magazine

Generation Me-Me-Me
The 'Me Generation' Is Raising Kids Who Know No Boundaries-- Which Isn't Always a Good Thing


Carrie is 2 years old, with curly brown hair and Windex-blue eyes. In a still-life portrait, she would be adorable. In three dimensions, she's a cross between a Gerber baby and the Tasmanian devil.

Bang. Bang bang bang and bang and bang.

That's the noise of the plastic water cup she is whacking against the ceramic-topped table of a neighborhood coffeehouse whose concrete floors function like an echo chamber. If she had a hammer she would have destroyed the table by now, and I'm pretty sure her parents would've let her. People look up from their lattes, squint at the diminutive figure making the big, ear-splitting noise, and try to continue with their newspapers or conversations. The banging goes on for a good 10 minutes. Normally, I would say something—I'm not shy about these things—but I'm curious to know just how long her parents, with whom I'm having coffee, will let this go. The answer: Indefinitely. They don't even seem to notice. Maybe they're just used to it?

On some primal level, Carrie must be offended that she's not the center of attention. There is anger in her banging, along with what I read as malice. As she grows even more restive, her father lowers her to the floor. Still clutching the cup, Carrie crawls through the room, pounding on the concrete floor as she goes along, giving everyone an up-close earful of her drum solo.

much more at the link

[HuckleB]

89. What does this have to do with spanking?

This is about bad parenting, which can lead to hitting a child.

[cally]

70. There is no reason to ever hit your children

I am a parent. My then one and two year olds were less obedient than the children who were beat. They cried when ignored, reached for adult treasures, interrupted, and wandered around talking to all. I got constant lectures on how I needed to spank my children. :shudder: A few years later, I was told how thoughtful and intellectual my children are/were. You can beat obedience in but you can't beat in values, caring, thoughtfulness, and love. True parenting takes time and endless patience.

[belladonna]

71. I've put off replying to this thread

Mostly because this is such a sensitive subject and so easily turns into a flame war. I have 3 children, two are grown and out of the house now, one remains. Each one so different that you'd wonder if you ever met them if they were really related to each other at all.

Spanking was never an issue with my girls, but with my son? There were times I came very very close to spanking. Fortunately I recognized it as what it was, and is in any case where a child is spanked or otherwise physically harmed. Frustration, pure and simple... I'm sure I'll get some who argue the old line about better I spank them than let them do something that'll hurt them even worse. That's BS and just a way to assuage one's guilt at doing something you know damn well is wrong.

My son came into this world kicking and screaming and didn't stop screaming for the first six months of his life. Once the colic was over, he learned to crawl, and then to walk, and from that point on, did his level best to take down everything in his path. Now one might say what I saw someone say in another reply in this thread... well, you raised the monster. He wouldn't have been acting the way he did if you'd been doing YOUR job. Another pile of crap.... I didn't change the rules or the way I dealt with things with my daughters, and they never had the urge to burn down the house, or to redecorate every inch of their rooms with a bottle of blue toilet bowl cleaner.

So I lived and learned and adjusted to HIM and his way of doing things, rather than beating him into submission and forcing him to conform with mine or his sisters. I found his weak spots... Nintendo, Playstation, groundings, that he COULDN"T talk his way out of... and I was consistent. Even tho there were times when I sorely wanted to A.Give in and let him have his way, if only to keep the peace, or B. Spank him into submission... I stayed consistent and he eventually got it. And he didn't have to stop being himself, which btw, was a creative, fun, extremely gifted child who sometimes (okay, most of the time) wanted to be the center of attention and make people sit up and take notice. Bad qualities, good qualities... sometimes they're the same thing. He can be a real pain in the ass to this day, but he still makes me laugh, he's still brilliant and creative and so many other things.

The best thing? He still feels like he can talk to me about ANYTHING that's going on in his life. A mixed blessing at times, especially when he got a bit too comfortable and decided to ask why I thought his girlfriend at the time had an oral fixation... but hey, it's better than the alternative, one I'd surely be faced with had I took the easy way out and gone the spanking route.

Flame away, people.... don't expect much from me in return tho. Places to go, people to annoy, so off I go :DD

[Susang]

79. No flames from me

I think your post was right on. :yourock:

[Misunderestimator]

81. You are a WONDERFUL parent. You have some lucky children.

:thumbsup:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

72. The Golden Mean

I believe in moderation where possible. Those who propose physical discipline as a routine in child rearing are as mistaken as those who would never impose any physical punishment in my opinion. I don't think people are born basically good. Children can be cruel, vicious monsters if left to themselves. I think that all children must learn that they are not the center of the world and learn humility. Physical punishment that is more intimidation (to make them timid) than any real harm or pain can be used on rare occasions when nothing else will do. Sometimes, with some children, nothing else will put their egos in check. I was physically punished by my father about 3 or 4 times. It wasn't painful or harmful but it did get my attention. It had only beneficial effects on me. Children should show great respect for their elders, learn to respect others, show humility, and not grow up to be self-centered egomaniacs.

[Deja Q]

73. The only works the instant Junior does something wrong...

A delayed punishment, or an unexplained one, leaves the child confused, if not worse...

[manic expression]

78. Parents should almost never hit their children

I think that children learn from their mistakes (a lot better than most parents, actually) well enough to discipline themselves. It also provides a child with self worth and maturity, as they are able to learn from life and not from pain. I think the ideal parent for anyone would be Atticus in "To Kill a Mockingbird". The way he leads by example, treats everything with equal respect and his all around attitude will show anyone the meaning of a complete human being. I know its kind of hard giving an example of a fictional character, but it is how I feel a parent should be.

P.S. I also think animal abuse should be condemned, and I think it is equally base and disgusting to hurt an animal as much as hurting a child.

[HuckleB]

85. The rod is lazy parenting.

It's the tool of the permissive parent at the end of his or her rope and the tool of the authoritarian parent at all times.

It's a sign of failure.

It's sign that you've failed to develop a parent-child relationship that allows you to teach, to set boundaries, to give punishment that actually means something and will help the chld develop.

[Angelus]

86. If I had a kid, I'd smack him/her.

If you were to spare the rod, then your kid will grow up to be a whiny spoiled bitch (if it's a girl) or a criminal (if it's a boy).