Help!! My kid has 2 fundie teachers !

[dolo amber]

One who has the front page of USA Today from the day mo-tard took office, along with print-outs of 'prayers' all over the bulletin board; the other plays *Christian rap* during class. I mentioned something to the history teacher (the bulletin board one) at the open house last week, just curious about the legality of the prayers being there. He gave me the "well we don't FORCE the children to pray" schpeil (with a look on his face that clearly suggested he thought they should :eyes:).

I spoke with someone at the board of education last year when I had problems with this same school holding *Non school related prayer vigils* around the flagpole. How praying on school property is not school related is beyond me, but anyway...they instructed me in the proper procedure for filing a complaint. To my discredit, I was working 45 minutes away from home and just couldn't make time to do it. But this is going too far.

The prayers were not *specifically* Christian, they didn't mention Jesus, just *our lord this, our lord that, in our lord's name etc. (Though being a Jew what would I know from Christian?) My daughter said she was harrassed and asked if she was a satanist today when she mentioned to the English teacher that playing Christian rap might offend some people. (By students, not the teacher.) I don't want her to be ostracised because she stands up for her beliefs, but I suppose that's inevitable. :(

[KamaAina]

1. Great Caesar's ghost! Where in the world are you?

And when will such places join us here in the 21st century?

[dolo amber]

14. I live in the

actual BUCKLE of the bible belt, Eastern KY. It's beyond disgusting. :puke:

[JohnKleeb]

15. poor you

:puke: take that fundie

[trogdor]

47. My condolences.

Of course, I live in central New York State, which is sort of like eastern KY, only with colder weather.

[wryter2000]

2. OMG!

Is this a public school? Get in touch with Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United for short.

And get your kid out of those classes. No kid should be told she's a satanist.

[wryter2000]

4. I haven't figured out inserting links yet

It's americansunited.com. I just checked.

[JohnKleeb]

11. I got the link

[JohnKleeb]

5. I will get the link for Dolo

http://www.au.org/
here you are Dolo good luck.

[JohnKleeb]

3. dolo I would call the superintendant or something

I hate shit like this, BTW I am Christian, Catholic if you must know, you are Jewish right? Let me just tell you again call someone in the school system and I am sorry about this, religious persecution is horrible as is all persecution.

[Iris]

6. You should definately go to the principal or board of education.

The "Christian rap" music is most offensive of all if you ask me because it wouldn't be over in just 30 seconds.

[blondeatlast]

8. Besides, "Christian" rap is punishment to all--and yes, I've heard it.

:puke:

[JohnKleeb]

13. oh god

I cant stand regular rap but christian rap :puke: christ and I am a christian.

[goobergunch]

27. I concur wholeheartedly.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

IMHO that stuff contravenes the Eighth Amendment.

[pstokely]

50. just call it C-Rap

nt

[TheBigGuy]

23. that wont work in Eastern Kentucky...depending on where u are.

If the thread parent is in a fairly small and rural school district the school board, super, and principle are probably sympathetic to Christian ideas and whats going on in the classroom. They may even be related to the teachers in question.

Eastern Kentucky is pretty fundamentalist, and there are few large towns w. a diversity of religion. I think the only place where you might get a hearing is in perhpas the larger towns like Middlesboro or Ashland or maybe Corbin.

[dolo amber]

26. I am in Ashland

Fortuantely, there is a small pocket of reasonable people here that have some power. The mayor is a Democrat, (and quite a character as well!) and the city council is relatively decent. The school board, however, is a different matter. However, I feel pretty certain if I threatened to make a big enough stink they might see my side, just to avoid a scandal.

[TheBigGuy]

28. Ashland...a relaitvely civilized place for E KY..... & Boyd County

Im not sure wether Ashland City Schools and Boyd County are a unified district or not, but Boyd County was in legal trouble as they where discriminating against a gay-straight alliance.

So i would expect the local school district to be sensitive to not shoving religion down peoples throats.

[dolo amber]

30. They are not unified

...2 totally seperate entities. Btw, Boyd Co. is stirring up the shit over the GSA again this year. There was a bit of rukus raised again but it got swept under the rug before I really had a chance to figure out what it was all about. I overheard some people at work saying "Well by God they go tryin' to bring that shit into Greenup Co., I'll go stand at the door with a shotgun myself!!" :eyes:

[TheBigGuy]

29. The ACLU was involved in your area......contact them....

Heres a link to the Boyd County case. You have the local Federal judiciary on your side too, it seems.

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/2003/04/19/news/5669785.htm

[librechik]

36. yes indeed

your school superindtendent needs a nice warning letter from the ACLU.

[blondeatlast]

7. This Christian says call the ACLU! Don't let them get away with it!

Especiall if your kid is being harrassed.

Praying is for church and home, schools are already overburdened.

Let us know what's going on with this--inexcusable.

[JohnKleeb]

10. ACLU yeah was gonna say the same

[prolesunited]

9. Even if it was the students and not the teacher

The teacher has the responsibility to set the standards in the classroom by admonishing the other students and explaining to them about different belief systems. Although, in this case, the teacher probably agrees with the students.

I think you have to decide what you are going to do based on what is best for your child and how they would react to it. If your child is a self-confident, independent thinker, I say take them on. If your child would be mortified, though, I would back off.

Only you can decide what is best for your family, but the school is definitely wrong.

[geniph]

12. Write a letter to the superintendent

cc the principal and the school board members. If that doesn't get a satisfactory response, go to the school board meeting (they're open to the public by law) and bring the issue up.

[Parche]

16. Keep filing

Those right wingers never give up, it is ok for them to do that
but its probably not ok to wear a bush sucks T-shirt or something
or when you ask about religion.
They are in a public school, they should be free of religion period
no prayers, no bible class no religion at all.

WE NEED FREEDOM FROM RELIGION

[Wwagsthedog]

19. Seconding Parche's Post

Before you do protest:

Remember that these people are probably going to try to ignore you at the very least. bush & ashcroft are fundies too. Evil!

Try to find a local support group if at all possible. You (pl) will appear more formidable than as a single person.

Think through the protest process thoroughly. It could get ugly and you need to be ready for that.

Good Luck

:thumbsup:

[texastoast]

17. A new necklace, perhaps . . . ?

With a nice Isis pendant?

O8)

[dolo amber]

18. D'oh!!

Why didn't I think of the ACLU!! Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it. The worst part of all of this is she's in 8th grade, the time that kids are at their WORST as far as the labelling, name calling etc. She's definitely a strong kid, she thinks this is wrong and isn't afraid to stand up for herself, but at the same time this will follow her for the rest of her schooling.

Where we live it isn't at ALL unusual to go out to eat at a restaurant and hear families praying before they eat...LOUDLY. Almost like it's more important for the population at large to SEE them praying than the actual praying itself. It's just a given that you're a Christian. They ask you when you fill out enrollment papers what church you belong to. When I filled in *none* I got strange looks. *Sigh*...I'm just so tired of it all...

I will DEFINITELY get in touch with the ACLU first thing tomorrow, and e-mails will be sent. Thanks again...:)

[prolesunited]

20. They ask what CHURCH

on public school enrollment documents?!?!?! Uh, yeah, I would call the ACLU.

[dolo amber]

21. It's listed

as *optional*...but I mean, really, should it even be there at all?!

No.

[Xithras]

54. Actually, yes it should

FYI, many children are picked up by church-run daycare centers, and many Catholic children are released early to go to catechism. For the kids in these situations, it's important for the school to know which church they belong to so they can make sure that only authorized people are picking them up. Believe it or not, the line requesting a childs church is pretty standard on registration forms across the country, and as long as it's OPTIONAL, I don't have a problem with that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Use the words of Jesus

Matthew 6:5-7: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

All that school prayer has two purposes:

1. Giving the fundies a chance to show how pious they are

2. Evangelizing any child who isn't part of the flock yet

But I'm serious about quoting Matthew 6:5-7. I've given you the King James version of 1611, since that is the only version that many fundies will accept.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Subliminal Christian messages

I just happened to walk on a college campus to find something I hadn't seen before. The window panes on this rather large building were set to look like white crosses. From a distance the building looks like a campus ministry. It's a public school campus, so it's very odd.

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. well, this minister offers you this idea:

Give her a t-shirt to wear with a large darwin fish, or a black sabbath concert jersey, or maybe a hat with a darwin fish (if they are allowed to wear hats), or something with a big ol' muslim symbol, star of david (though they won't find that offensive, I'm sure), "Save Mother Goddess Earth!" or something that she can carry around and, when the Christian rap starts up, put on the shirt, cap, whatever as a response to the teacher's intrusion of religion into the classroom. Then she can say, "You push your religion, I'll push whatever it isn't" or something. Sorry, lost my creativity right during that sentence.

[goobergunch]

25. I go to a Catholic school, so I'm used to it...

I feel bad for you and your daughter.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I didnt know you went to Catholic school

My dad did, we're still Catholic, but I do know this you arent the only young DUer to go to private school, are your parents democrat or republican just curious the catholic school kids that I know are real right wing as are their famlies but my dad and other famlies in the 50's and 60's were democrats and they still are :).

[MissMarple]

34. A lot of Catholics are democrats. And she may be better off in a Catholic

school. Oddly, they can sometimes be less judgemental with non- Catholic students.

There will be no immediate change in her school environment, if she stands out, it will only get worse. You have to be committed and strong to enter that battle. Honest. Ask at witchvox.com

Alternatively, is there another middleschool in your district she can attend that may serve a less "fundamental" community?

[ZoCrowes]

53. Catholic school

I went to a catholic school for 13 years (K through high school) and in high school my best friend was jewish. A good friend of mine was a hindu. Caholic schools tend to be very tolerant. In our cathedral here in town in the rec room below the church there is a wall covered with religious symbols from all world religions. It's meant to teach religious diversity and tolerance.

[Melsky]

32. Yuck! I wish you the best in dealing with this

It is so sad that people feel the need to arrogantly inflict their religion on other people.

I don't have any kids, and I'm not sure I'm going to. Things like this are part of the reason why I don't want to have them. I would want to homeschool, and I'm not sure I am up to that.

[Parche]

33. NO MORE RELIGION TO

We dont need no right wing educators
We dont need no right wing control
No dark right wingers in the classroom
Hey teachers, leave us Liberals alone

[dofus]

35. Is homeschooling even a distant option?

Most people connect homeschooling with right-wing religious fanatics, but lots of other people home school also, and this would be a good reason to do so. If it's possible for you. Think about it.

I presume moving to a more enlightened area isn't a real option at this point.

[dolo amber]

37. I would LOVE to homeschool

but at this point, it's not financially possible for me to not work. On the subject of work and relocation however, I have applied for a job with a non-profit organisation that works to sign up and encourage low-income families to vote, fights for the rights of the homeless to vote, etc. They told me since they have no office in this area (although they TOTALLY should, imo) I would need to relocate if hired. I have no idea to where, but odds are it would be more enlightened than here.

I should hear from them soon, everyone send me good job vibes. :)

[LWolf]

38. How far do you want to go?

Step 1, the administrator. Step 2, the superintendent. Step 3, the school board. Step 4, legal action.

You have grounds for legal action. The benefit to this would be to shut down the offensive activity, not just for your child but for all. The drawback would be that you probably wouldn't want your child/ren to attend that school, or even that district.

[Ladyhawk]

40. A reminder:

Backlash from fundies can be awful. They won't listen to reason because they literally believe reason is evil.

I defected from fundyism and from the right wing.

God, I'm lonely. :(

[incontrovertible]

41. "our lord"

yep, that'd be Christian. I am one, I got nothing against it, but I find its forceful insertion into every orifice of public life just beyond obnoxious. We're supposed to go pray in a closet where nobody else sees us, but I think the only people who do that are, like, me, and um... like five other people.

Where the heck do you live? East Texas? I grew up there, they make a mockery of the law in this regard. There was a catastrophic meltdown some years back when someone had the temerity to go to court to prevent a traveling Evangelical preacher from holding an altar call in the high school auditorium.

[Coffee Coyote]

42. a longtime goal of the christian right

They have long been getting their ranks into teacher's colleges and elected to school boards so that they can further their goals of widespread indoctrination.

Get 'em!

[dolo amber]

43. Right...

So I've been trying to figure out how to word the e-mail to the teacher, and one detail is bugging me...

Should I send it in my name or anonymously? I know that might sound like the chickenshit way out, but I do kinda fear backlash on my daughter. If I send it, and it gets results, then there would be no need to drag her into it...I dunno, I want it to be clear I disagree with this, but at the same time I don't want her to pay for it, y'know? The e-mail address I would use has no indication of my identity. So, am I being wishy washy? Or should I try it this way first and see if it works?

[Ladyhawk]

44. There's nothing wrong with trying it anonymously first.

Why the hell not?

When I "came out" and declared my status as an atheist, there was a terrible price to pay from "friends" and family. A fundy stranger would hang you out to dry and feel godly about doing it, too.

NEVER TRUST A FUNDY!!!

I grew up around them. I was one. I wouldn't trust the person I used to be. Fundies are extremely dangerous.

[Nomad559]

46. Anonymously

If you want to send e-mail anonymously, use this link. :)

http://nonymouse.com/anonemail.html

[dolo amber]

56. Excellent

Thanks loads for that. :)

I'm going to go and write the e-mail right now, I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks again for all your support and suggestions!!

[dofus]

45. What grade is your daughter in?

How mature is she? If you are creative enough, and she's mature enough, home schooling could still be an option. Around twenty years ago, when my oldest was a baby, I recall reading an article by some home-schooling guru (NOT of the fundamentalist Christian kind) who felt that there were cases in which a ten-year old with working parents could still be home-schooled. Is there anyone else, any relative perhaps, who could provide at least some supervision while you're at work?

Are there any other Jews at all in your community? Please let us know what the ultimate outcome is here. I know it will play out over at least the entire school year, maybe longer, but here at DU we care and we're all with you.

[LynneSin]

48. Yeah, I see the "Christian" kids still using the satanist angle

I went to a school filled with fundie kids. Thing is, I'm a Christian too but I didn't buy into that hardcore crap. I just didn't think it was something Jesus would be doing.

I was into all the musical stuff in High School - Chorus, Band, Musicals you name it and it seems there was a large gathering of fundie Christians in these groups. So here I am, a band geek and I'm being ostracized because I'm not buying into this fundie crap. To top things off I love Led Zeppelin and other classic rock bands. So these kids pretty much insisted I would rot in hell because <gasp> I listen to Led Zeppelin, because what good "Christian" would listen to the devil's music?

I was about to give up music to get away from this harassment but it was my Sunday School teacher (a very progressive thinker) that made me realize that I could be a Christian and enjoy music like Zeppelin. Christianity wasn't about condemning others for musical choices and other idiotic things, but reaching out to help others who need help.

Good Luck!

[Kamika]

49. dont knock christian rap

Seriously There is some really good christian rap , you know its not all about oh worship the lord etc etc alot is just that you should study, not to crime and so forth.. im sure you agree its better then the mainstream rap (except for eminem whom ill marry!!)

Theres some great christian punk out there too :)

l.g wise is my favorite christian rap artist heres some lyrics from one of his latest songs


Verse 1
Quit runnin wit dose killers and thuggs
I'll trade you love fo dem sluggs
Wit dese petti cats slangin dey druggs
Dey say dey love you, I know
But all dey want is da dough
N if you mess up
Still want it Rain Hail Sleet Snow

N all ou playaz -n- thuggs
You got dese girls in dese clubbs
On da floor shakin it up
Lost needin some love

Rappers die in da field
Claimin dey keep it real
Got yo glock wit yo dropp
Baby packin da steel
I rather be in God's will
While dey plottin to kill
You can't adjust to da truth
Ima still be keepin it real

Na tell me what you thuggs beleivin
Got mothers grievin
Squeezin gats
Leavin em flat
Fo no reason
Not even breathen
Like you ready to ball
You rather slide down a mountain full blades
In some alcohol

Kiss a Parona
Dis-ra-spectin yo momma
No no fear fo yo life
Say you be back on Manyanna

Chorus

Verse 2
I was sent by God -n- gotta message fo yo thuggs
You ain't feelin me huh--Dat's why you steady bussin sluggs
Leavin em dead in dey blood--got mommas feelin like what
But Jesus shedd his own blood -n- you claim to be a thugg
You a coward dat's why you steady packin a steel
You a coward dat's why you leavin 'em dead in da field
You a coward I know son you claim you keepin it real
Maken dem mills you live -n- you die fo da scrill

Forget you rappers dat won't hear me
I bring it real
See you laughin -n- jokin like it's a game
But you gone feel me
Da times I be feelin da fire yo Holy Spirit
Da reason I'm droppin
I know dat you thuggs gone feel it

See da thugg in yo eye
So I gotta reply
You betta listen to me son
You ain't ready to die
To look my Lord up in his eye
-N- ya gotta tell em why
You waste yo life gettin high
So now you gotta fry
Bye Bye
So was it worth it wit yo homies pufin lah
Or wit dese girls up in da clubbs
While you all between dey thighs
Na why
Claimin dat you ready to ball
You rather slide down a mountain full of blades in some alcohol

Girls up in dis thang
U's a queen up in dis thing
Don't loose yo dream up in dis thang
Fo da cream up in dis thang

Said you tired of sheddin tears
w/homies dats catchin years
When u ready to make a change
(Say Homie) we right here


Chorus

Verse 3
You cat's gone see da flames
Fo sellin yo soul in dis game
Son you need to read da Word
So you can learn to maintain
It's like all da weed you smoke got you loosin yo brain
Talkin bout killin babies, I think really insane

All u cowardd be hittin, deficatin when you spittin
Split tongue like a serpent
Leave em dead b-4 dey bittin

I use to run in bedstuy -n- wilin puffin on Laah
I got lockdown on da islin were you gettin no smiles

Chorus

[KinkyDem]

51. Do understand how offensive some of this is to...

people like me and others, do you?

Do you see that the use of "Our Lord" makes this unacceptable to be played at school by a teacher? In class?

How would you feel, how would others feel if I were a teacher and played Estarte chants in class all day long? How would students feel if I had spells, incantations and ritual instructions posted in a class room?

Trust me this would not go over very well. More importantly, I would never do such a thing unless I was teaching in a Wiccan school. Religeon should stay at home, in church, at synangauges and witihin the circle. It does not belong in school in this manner.

"Its like the day that Pac died
A place in your heart you gonna cry
I cant lie
The Lord will come and wipe da tears from yo eyes
But Jesus shed his blood to save a thug
Then they got us bustin slugs
Them haters bust his head
But he still showed em love"

Do you understand just how offensive this is? I doubt you do. I'm not trying to pick on you just to show you that "Jesus" and the notion of "Jesus shed his blood to save a ... " ... fill in the blank is as repulsive to me and mine as "Satan" would be so many others.

I have faced religious pushyness in school settings, my son has borne the brunt of those encounters because the small teachers could not deal with the situation adult to adult as it should be but took the encounter to the children so that they could be good little christains and torment my son for our religeouse beliefs, all the while encouraged by his "teacher".

I do not pray to "My Lord" I pray to "My lady and My Lord". My son knows more Greek and Roman myth than Christain. He knows Lakota/Dekota myth about as well as he knows his Norse myth. He knows, when taken to the Land of the Faye not to eat or drink as Poor Persephanie was tricked into doing. He knows that Ra is chased across the sky by a great Dragon who rules the darkness. He knows that Heracles performed twelve tasks not ten as two of the first wetre ruled as not by him. He aslo knows some little bit about Jesus. He sees Jesus and Hercules in much the same vaign. People, mostly story, maybe real who were somehow touched by the divine and performed great deeds won fame and followers and became more through story than anything the could have done in their real lives.

Jesus is not my God. There is more than one way to communicate with the devine. There is no place for religeon in public schools.

[dsc]

52. You have two issues here

The prayer is probably legal. Prayers on school property are legal if all of the following are true:

1) It is done before or after school.
2) Participation is purely voluntary.
3) The students, not the faculty, lead the prayers.

From what you describe they meet that standard.

The Christian Rap is quite another matter. You should go to the mat on that one.

[dolo amber]

55. As far as the prayers on school grounds go

I did a little investigating last year and found that you are right, technically they're not illegal. That's not my issue this year. It's the teacher who has printed prayers on his bulletin board, surrounding the full page of the USA Today from when Chimpy took/stole office. AND the Christian rap.