Question about child abuse

[bleedingheart]

I have a very close friend who I happened to visit recently and I was absolutely appalled by how she yelled at her children and how much obscenity she directed at them. It was really upsetting.

She is well educated, has all the creature comforts you can imagine ..large house, very sweet husband and two gorgeous kids.. but in spite of all outward appearances that home is not a happy one.

Her husband was appealing to me and my husband to help him and now I am left wondering what to do.

I think that the abuse is primarily verbal and I think that my friend desparately needs mental health counseling but I am trying to think of how to get her there without alienating it or making it worse for her husband and kids.


on edit:

The kids are two and four... my friend spends most of her time trying to get away from them ...
The youngest has fallen down the stairs once, fallen off a trampoline three times because of no supervision and while I was visiting he was climbing on countertops near the stove because she was talking on the phone with a friend..

When her children come to her for attention she screams incessantly at them.

they are 2 and 4 years old.

[SmileyBoy]

1. In my opinion, that is NOT abuse.

The law says it's not abuse, and I lived through that type of thing all through my childhood and adolescense, and I feel like I'm a better person because of it. Sometimes you need your kids to fall into line. And I feel that sometimes the use of the voice is necessary, because of the inherent negative phusical and mental effects that spanking/hitting entails. Sometimes, I get REALLY sick of some of these psychology books on parenting that restrict you from enstating basically ANY type of punishment on kids.

Now these books are telling parents not to yell at their kids, and I think that's totally ludicrous. These kids get out of control sometimes. That's the behaviour they exhibit at those ages. HOW ELSE are you going to be able to get into their heads to stop it, sit down and shut up?? You can't get into their heads using gentle means. And I used to be a preschool teacher, so I know what I'm talking about. This is why I feel we're currently raising a whole generation of spoiled, entitled childern who will not be able to deal with the harsh real world.

[bleedingheart]

2. so you think a mother screaming

"get the fuck away from me" at a two year old is okay?

[Mal]

3. You never mentioned the child's age.

As with everything, too much and too little are bad, the right amount is good. What's the right amount? Ahhh... that's the advanced course.

on edit - And now you have metioned the ages. Vital.

[SmileyBoy]

5. There are certain ways you got to implement it.

That way is not one of them. You're right on that point. This type of discipline should be used as warning/instruction to children to start behaving, or to stop doing something wrong. I think it should be used in a position of prevention/stopping of bad behaviour, not in that casual sense like you explained, especially to a child who's two year old. But I still maintain that it's a necessary part of parenting. And no, I don't advocate hitting or spanking of any kind. I think it's wrong.

[bearded_cat]

4. If in front of others

someone verbally abuses their kid(s), think of what they may be capable of when no one is watching. Who knows? Only the family involved. Verbal/Emotional abuse is unbelievably hurtful to a persons development.

The only thing abuse accomplishes is anger, frustration and separateness. that may give one the impression they are strong, but it is only a defense mechanism employed to protect. It makes it so much more difficult to connect with others.

[bleedingheart]

7. I just want to know what to do

I really feel bad for the kids..

My two kids were with me and they spent a lot of time with her kids playing with them and having fun... but anytime the youngest one came to get a hug or to get some attention she just lashed out at him...

If anything the child is reaching out... he needs love.. I spent some time holding him and rocking him... I felt bad leaving them behind with her behaving this way.

[bearded_cat]

13. I'm not an expert, but what I would want

to know, is that there is someone out there that cares - obviously you, and maybe a grandparent, a teacher - someone that can let them know there are other ways of seeing the world than the one they know through experience. If you believe there is actual abuse - whether physical, sexual, or emotional - you should probably anonymously call a hotline and ask someone to check into it. They will visit the family, possibly refer them to counseling and follow up to see that it happened, or if abuse is actually occurring to the degree that a child is being harmed, they will take further action.

Don't think that talking to the person will change anything - it won't. I don't want to give the impression that verbal abuse means necessarily that other abuses are happening in the home, but it sounds as though something is wrong. It is better to err on the side of caution rather than spend your days wondering.

[Pert_UK]

9. WOAH THERE!!!

It is NOT acceptable to leave kids this young unsupervised and if anything did happen to them then it would be considered neglect (I believe) in which case the "mother" could be in some serious trouble, not to mention having to live with the knowledge that she had caused the death or injury of her child.

In addition, whilst you can't mandate that all parents have lovey-kissy-touchy-feely relationships with their kids, you can say that it is HUGELY UNACCEPTABLE to yell obscenities at children.

I am massively confused by your post - "Sometimes you need your kids to fall into line. And I feel that sometimes the use of the voice is necessary, because of the inherent negative phusical and mental effects that spanking/hitting entails." I agree, but if this woman is CONSTANTLY shouting at the kids (as the original post details) then they will never learn when they are being chastised. Always shouting is as ineffective as never shouting, because the lack of contrast means that there is no emphasis and no difference between praise and punishment. However, always shouting is worse because it teaches the kids that it is acceptable to be uncontrolled, angry, loud and abusive, and fuck knows we've got enough kids who think like that already.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of reasonable strict discipline with kids, including shouting and possibly spanking if absolutely necessary, but the kid will never learn how to behave if this isn't tempered with love and only applied when appropriate.

Your post seems to be a knee-jerk reaction against overly soft parenting and has nothing to do with the original request for help.

Peace.

P.

[SmileyBoy]

14. Read post # 5.

I said that it's unhealthy to use it casually. It should be used as discipline. Yelling at kids casually also has negative effects, and should not be condoned. But I still don't feel that use of shouting at kids should be completely abandoned by parents in the situation of bad behaviour by children.

[LastRobot]

24. I pray that you are sterile

and forever unable to have children.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I would focus on her instead of the kids

Ask her if she is OK. Gently tell her that you notice she doesn't seem to be happy and find out if there is anything you can do. Maybe that will open her up to communicating and have her see that her level of anxiety is higher than maybe she realizes.

[bleedingheart]

10. That is why i called her from work today

but she persisted and screaming bloody murder at the kids while I was on the phone so I felt even worse. She went on and on about how the kids were driving her crazy and that she "hated them"...that isn't something 2 and 4 year olds should be hearing from their mother.

I think she is desparately unhappy but I live two states away and I don't know how to help...I will continue to call and try and reach out but I fear for those kids.

[Ilsa]

8. She needs to be in counseling,

and her dh needs to insist on it. This is abuse, even if she is not hitting them, because it is also neglect, and children can die from neglect. There is no excuse for that kind of parenting, and she needs to learn how to be a better parent. Kids will do childish things, and they need to be corrected, but that is not the way to do it. Those children can be permanently harmed emotionally by her meanness.

The doctors get really suspicious when children keep getting hurt, and they may sic Child Protective Services on her.

Some of the worst abuse I've heard about from friends was them clearly remembering the wickedly mean and ugly names a parent called them.

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. The mother needs help. BADLY.

And NOW! Those children need better supervision. Could the mother be depressed? Could the kids be too much for her? I know what I am talking about -- the triplets will be three in late October and they may have spills and falls -- but they are supervised.

[bleedingheart]

16. personally I don't think she really wanted kids

I think that she was pushed into it by her husband and parents... and she went along with it..but she was miserable with both pregnancies and the eldest child just runs from her.
I don't know that she hits them but the verbal abuse alone is just beyond the pale....
for example the baby was asking for milk at breakfast and he did not see the sippy cup she had poured for him... she banged the cup on the table twice and screamed.."here it is...are you stupid?"... it was surreal...

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. Verbal abuse can damage a child as much as physical abuse.

If this woman was pushed into having kids -- and is having such trouble coping with two pre-schoolers -- then she needs help even more. Can you talk to the husband? Children are such precious things.

[bleedingheart]

20. I just talked to my husband and I think I am going to call her

husband at work tomorrow and see if I help him get her to counseling.

I also know her dad and perhaps I can call him as well...

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. Good.

You are trying to make a difference. This woman -- and her children -- need help.

[bearded_cat]

22. It's a good thought

but it won't help the situation - in my experience and opinion. Please see my post with a link. You could talk to someone actively involved with this question and work it through.

Good luck - and remember the reason for your post - the kids.

[dweller]

23. you've made a point here

and it's been building with your posts bit by bit.
screaming at a baby and asking if 'is stupid' is beyond surreal. How could the child respond adequately to prove it otherwise to the accuser?

As others have suggested you should take her aside and far away for several hours and ask her how she feels, or observe if she feels more relaxed, open and sane with the distance from her children, then ask. while she may be feeling utterly overwhelmed by the responsibilities of 2 young children, and at the end of her patience with them, a logical person would take mini time outs from kids, while they are occupied with safe activities, and find a breathing space, or a phone conversation, to distract and allow oneself a break. That's not the way you described it, with her yelling at the child while on the phone with you, or other friends.
But be prepared for what she may tell you. If she is in need of professional counseling, she may become very descriptive of her feelings toward her children, and not positively if she thinks you are trustworthy to confide in, or conversly, someone who wouldn't take the information seriously, and would just agree that she is a victim in an unhappy situation.

Another alternative, and it's a risky one in a way, would be to speak with a legal counsel, and in this case a female representative.
Lawyers are bound by law to report and investigate any information they have of child abuse and neglect. I don't think this is a condition specific to state, i know it is in my state. I am not a member of the legal profession, but have learned from them in my own personal experience and it was one somewhat similar to what you have described. Enough similarities to make me want to speak up here.

you are in a difficult position here, you are her friend, and also concerned for her children but sound like you would have that concern for any minor child. I would trust that gut feeling and make a move either legal, through social services as recommended above, but at least on a personal basis to see if your friend will open up to you. If she confides to you anything that alarms that same 'gut feeling' you are already reacting with which has made you post here, move on it and do it soon. The best would be everything could get so much better with adequate professional help and she would realize you are a true friend. The worst of course would be a nightmare a friend, or parent, would not wish visited on anyone.

Best of luck to you.
dp

[Pert_UK]

12. Sounds like she needs help.....

If you can talk to her about this then do so. Don't be accusatory but ask her if she's been feeling pressure or having problems and offer to help. Could you, for instance, get the dad to look after the kids for the day while you take your friend for a day out somewhere. Get her to relax, forget about the kids, and see if you can find out what's bothering her?

If you think that this will cause difficulties and drive her away, then maybe you can talk to someone in Social Services (it's a UK thing, you must have something similar). My mother is a Social Worker who specialises in cases of child abuse or neglect. I'm confident that she would welcome someone coming to speak to her, in confidence and without revealing names, about a friend that they were worried about. If you can contact the equivalent US organisation you should be able to do the same. They would be able to give you good advice and maybe point you in the direction of some other helpful organisations.

On edit - personally, I'd have posted this is GD or elsewhere, not the lounge.....

P.

[bleedingheart]

15. I am thinking about talking to a professional because I am not

well versed in this kind of stuff.. I am a mother of two children and while I do discipline my kids and keep them in line... I have never treated them in the manner my friend has her behavior borders on revolting... I went to college with her and she was always a fun person... however I think that she does suffer from severe problems and her family (her parents) are creating problems for her.

I posted this here because its not a political discussion... perhaps I should have posted in the Meeting Room..?

[pansypoo53219]

17. yes

it sounds like she has some mental probs. Depression? she obviously feels trapped. and that is abuse. there is discipline, and then there is psycotic

[bearded_cat]

19. my last response to this problem

you are having a dilemma. Why? Because you believe that something is happening that strongly disagrees with your ethics. Make a call to a hotline. It won't hurt anyone and will possibly help some little folks that really need it.

http://search.netscape.com/redir.adp?appname=MS&query=child%20abuse%20hotline&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2echildhelpusa%2eorg%2freport%5fhotline%2ehtm&datasource=Google&partner=Google&clickedItemRank=2&requestId=cns185027&component=websearch.google.http.tcl&searchType=MS&clickedItemType=MS&brand=NSCP&query=child%20abuse%20hotline&view=nscp_portal&channel=nscp_portal&source=NSCPIndex&invocationType=-

my god - sorry about the size of that link!