Childless adults: Selfish or not?

[Cascadian]

Me and a co-worker of mine had a debate recently. He a thirtysomething married father of 3 said that people who decide on not having children were selfish. I, a single thirtysomething male with no children has come to the decision that I did not want to have kids. We debated over this. I argued that people who decide not have kids made a conscience decision and they do not want the responsibility of having to raise children. There is no crime in that.

I also stated that there are those people out there who bring kids into the world for the wrong reasons and therefore selfish themselves. I meant no disrespect to him however as he seems like a commited dad which is great for him. However for me, I cannot bring myself to raise kids especially these days.

Is there anybody here who made the decision not to have kids and have come across being accused of being selfish or even immature?

John

[DS1]

1. I think people with more than 6 kids are selfish

[DBoon]

9. With that many, the parents can't possibly take care of them

so the older kids take care of the younger, being robbed of their childhood in the process.

[DS1]

14. and requiring much more natural resources

even if only because they think they have to buy a Ford Excursion.

But moreso the enormous piles of used diapers, water, food, etc etc.

[blackmoonlillith]

2. A wise decision if you're not into kids...

Raising kids really cuts into your personal and professional life. It has plenty of rewards, however. I have two, but I have plenty of friends without kids. If they're not ready for kids or if they don't want kids, that's their business not mine.

[Cascadian]

5. It isn't that I am not into kids.

In fact, I am the proud uncle of three great little boys. I like kids fine but I have just made a conscience decision not to have children. I feel that the uncertainty in the world plus the 24/7 job that parenting truly is would just be too much for me. I also guess it is because of my less than ideal childhood played a big factor in why I am not having kids.

John

[blackmoonlillith]

12. Well, as much as you've thought about all of this...

it would be a shame if you didn't have kids. I wish people would think about the world and what they'll have to sacrifice before having kids. Plus, it's great that you like kids. I wouldn't for a moment say you're selfish or immature. I think you're thoughtful and you want the best for your kids, if and when you have them.

[July]

72. Enjoy being an uncle.

No, it's not the same as being a parent, but it has its own rewards. I have two kids, and, although I'd lay down my life for them, my review after the fact is that parenthood is as tough as it is rewarding. It changes a marriage, too, in that much energy goes toward maintaining and developing the offspring. Can be good, can be bad, can be in-between, usually it's a combination of all three possibilities.

My two cents: don't second-guess yourself. Do what you feel like doing. If you change your mind, have a kid (and expect radical change in your life). Don't explain to people who've already decided what your child-free life means.

Bet those "three great little boys" see you as "one great uncle."

[Momgonepostal]

3. I have 2 children, but think you're right

I think children are so wonderful they deserve parents who REALLY want them. If a person does't want kids, they certainly shouldn't be harrassed into having them to fit someone else's family ideal.

The decision not to have children may or may not be a selfish one, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

[rawtribe]

4. If you loved your children

you wouldn't have them. With 6 billion plus people on this planet. Having children is the selfish act.

[matcom]

6. Me = No Kids - Me = Selfish As Hell

yup. say it to everyone who asks.

I'm selfish. I wanna go where and when i want. Do what i want. i think i personally am more responsible for recognizing that fact early on than those who have kids just because and end up divorcing etc... Also believe that if i every DID want kids, it would be MUCH better to adopt.

oh and Mrs Matcom had cancer and can't have kids anyways.

frankly people who take fertility drugs and pop out 2 or 3 at a time piss me off more.

[VelmaD]

62. I'm getting scared...

we agree on something again. :scared:

I'm a big believer in adoption. First off, you can get them after they're already house-broken. ;) Second, there are LOTS of kids already in this world who need a good home and I would feel like a real shit-heel if I decided I wanted kids without doing something about the ones that are already here.

[GOPisEvil]

65. Heck, I don't want a DOG because of being tied down.

I sure as all hell don't want children.

Am I selfish, or do I just know myself well enough to know I wouldn't make a good parent? I'm short-tempered and not very patient at times; that doesn't sound like a recipe for parental success.

[DBoon]

7. More like why not and a look of incredulity...

as though it is entirely incomprehensible why someone would not go to impossible lengths to bear and raise children. Oh, and the prying for an explanation, as though it is any of their Fing business.

When you talk about selfish and immature, maybe you should mention the many couples who have unplanned children and are incapable of taking care of them (leaving them to the grandparents, etc.).

Better to decide not to have kids than to have them without thinking of the consequences.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. If I had kids I'd have to share my candy with them.

Does that attitude make me selfish? :shrug:

[LoneStarLiberal]

10. Here Here

I'm 30 going on 31 and most of my married friends all have at least 1 or more kids.

In general I find that people who think that you are selfish for not having kids generally shouldn't have had them themselves, because they're projecting their bad choices and/or their displeasure with their choices on you.

If you think that making a responsible adult choice to not have kids is selfish, I shudder to think what kind of dicked-up morality you are going to impart to your children. This is the same kind of mentality that blames homosexuals for ruining marriage.

Your co-worker doesn't sound like that type, thankfully. I work with people who do have the attitude I've mentioned above, and it's usually in lock-step with some flavor of fundamentalist Christian belief.

[SmileyBoy]

11. I'm not psychologically capable of raising kids.

I was a preschool teacher for a year (and I'm still licsensed in Minnesota to teach preschool), and I did not like the experience at all after a while. It was a novelty at first, but I wasn't stuck raising babies at the beginning, I was supervising 4-5 year-olds the whole time.

I'm not capable of raising a baby/toddler. I couldn't take it with my neurological/social disablities and such. I'm 21, and I've made that decision.

[donco6]

13. I don't think it's anyone's business but your own. eom

[put out]

15. I made the decision to have a child.

I have absolutely no beef with anyone who decides not to. Even the most committed and loving parents will, from time to time, look back on their childless past with fondness. At least, all the ones I know do, if they will admit it. The rest are lying.

Just my opinion. Do what you need to do and don't take any shit about it. If you live a good life and are satisfied, you will be doing me and my child a far better service than if you were to have children you didn't really want. Those parents are scary and sad, and they raise scary and sad people.

[Pithlet]

63. Absolutely.

"Even the most committed and loving parents will, from time to time, look back on their childless past with fondness. At least, all the ones I know do, if they will admit it. The rest are lying."

[Nobody]

16. One of my HS teachers told the class that

if you were married and had no children, you were selfish.

What about people who can't have children?

What about people who know themselves well enough to know they'd be terrible parents?

What about people who just plain don't like kids?

Is it selfish to decide not to add to the already overpopulated planet?

[tnlefty]

17. I have an older friend who I have always admired because of her

decision to not have children. It cost her the love of her life and she never married. She's in her early 60's and for her generation the decision to not become a mother was even more unheard of than it is today.

She likes kids, but she didn't feel that she had the patience to deal with them day in and day out everyday for the rest of her life.

[noiretextatique]

18. yes, people have told me this

and what i tell then is: i am the person your kids seek out after you've screwed them up :D which has been true, in my experience as an aunt. because i am not "the parent," my nieces and nephews tell me things they can't tell their parents, and they look to me for guidance on issues that they wouldn't be comfortable with telling their parents about.
i made the choice not to have children because i knew i was screwed up, and i didn't want to screw up someone else. i wish some others would make that same choice.

[xanadu1979]

19. your friend is very wrong

Your friend sounds like a republican, they can't get over the fact that life isn't black and white.

I'm only 24, but my significant other and I have already decided to never have kids. We are both very committed to our careers and we don't want kids that are just going to be raised in a day care.

[TN al]

20. I have 4 boys...

...and often envy you. In my dotage you will envy me. Unless my kids turn out to be the morons they appear to be now.

[Bunny]

26. ***snarf***

That was a good one!

[Karenina]

107. BWHAHAHAHA!!!

Thanx for that laugh!!! I never intended to have kids, but always was part of the "village." My oldest "godkids" are 15 years older than my own. My relationships with them all were INDEPENDENT of their parents, based on our trust and interdependence. I often got up into our young'uns faces about points I felt needed to be grokked, no running to mommy or daddy, they had to deal with ME as another human being who loved them. It was a HEALTHY interaction. As they grew older I could say the EXACT WORDS their parents would use, but from ME they would accept it more readily. Same with my own kids, my childfree friends can communicate our collective values SO MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY. WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER!

[no_hypocrisy]

21. Benevolent. You should not have kids if you are ambivalent in the

least bit. Kids are not your validation for being married, being fertile, and/or giving back to your family and society. Don't make the kids suffer for your need to use them to help move toward maturity.

[HuckleB]

22. A bizarre debate, IMHO.

One could argue selfishness just as easily in either case. However, one who knows him or herself well enough to realize that raising kids would not be in the best of interest of the kids is hardly being selfish.

My wife and I have debated whether or not (and when) we would have kids for years. And, yes, the "selfish" question has come up now and then. We do enjoy our quiet nights, our ability to hit the road at any time, our ability to rejuvenate when needed. Of course, we have also been able to pursue careers and volunteer opportunities that serve children with a gusto we wouldn't be able to do, if we become parents. In other words, there are more ways to help raise the future generation than by being parents.

That said, we are planning to try to become parents starting at the end of the coming summer. I guess we're gonna be selfish and spread them genes down time's road, if possible.

[Career Prole]

23. Not at all.

If I had known ten years ago how screwed up things were going to be I would have spared my daughter the burden of trying to make her way in a world gone mad.
That feeling is born from love and generosity, not selfishness. I often want to apologize to her for not doing more sooner to leave her a world like the one I knew as a child.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. I'd love to have kids

However, there's a problem: No one with whom to have them.

It's simple as that.

I have fairly conventional morals about children. It's better to be married, and to have a happy, strong relationship. There's no blame for people who are single and raising children, but for me to "sow my seed" right now would be the height of irresponsibility.

As for the partner, if I had one, that would be fine; but I don't, so it's not an option for me. Alas! They all prefer Leonardo DiCaprio and Chris Noth! :)

I've gotten caught in the luck of a bad draw. And that makes me selfish?

People who choose not to have children are no more selfish than people who do have children out of sick needs they themselves have. It's not for everybody, and not everybody has a choice in the matter.

--bkl

[Philostopher]

25. Mr. Nownow and I were discussing this last night.

I married early the first time, but the life situations my first husband and I found ourselves in never provided sufficient financial and personal stability that I thought it woud be wise to have kids. I think bringing kids into a rollercoaster marriage, especially if people do it because they somehow fantasize that having children is going to improve the marriage, may well be one of the most selfish (and ill-considered) things people do. I think it's more selfish than not wanting to have children at all, at any rate.

I married late the second time, already well into my thirties. My second husband had never been married, and is my age. We discussed it when we married -- we weren't necessarily averse to the idea of having one child, but not at that point. We wanted to make sure the marriage would last, and that we would have a good foundation for a child to grow up in, if we decided to do it.

Now we're both around 40, been married a few years, but it looks likely we'll never reproduce. The timing just wasn't right. I never wanted to have a kid because I was scared shitless I wouldn't ever have a kid. It just seems wrong, to me.

Not all reasons not to have children are selfish. Many people elect not to because they know they don't have the patience -- and that's not selfish, because ultimately, lacking the patience results in miserable kids. Some don't because they're not sure they have the stability to pay for a decent life for a kid. Again, that's not selfish. Some were abused as children and fear they'll abuse their own children, and so choose not to have them at all.

So many of the reasons I've heard for people not having kids boil down to an individual's doubting his or her personal qualities or abilities would result in their being a good parent. There's nothing selfish about deciding you're not cut out to raise children well. Better to not do it than to abuse or neglect a kid for 18 years or so. Most importantly -- better for the kids you never have, since they're the ones who'd suffer most from poor parenting.

I think in some cases, people who don't have children spend a lot more time thinking about having children than some people who do. For what that's worth.

[cliss]

27. Not selfish.

People who choose not to have kids, that is. I say, good for them! Have fun, buy yourself a BMW.

Those of us who have kids will need to sacrifice more, but we'll be able to get that BMW (although it won't be until after the kids' education is paid for).

To each his own.

[LoZoccolo]

28. I wonder who's gonna take care of me when I get old.

That's actually kind of a "selfish" reason to have kids, and since it's kind-of the only reason I really think of I don't really think about doing it.

I can kind of see a reason why it would be "selfish" too - like we who hang out here want to change the world and stuff, and if we think our values and what-not are important, we'd maybe want to pass them on to the world through kids. If we have a lot to give if we were to raise kids, we may raise some that do some pretty big things - like your kid could be the one who discovers a cure for cancer.

[dawn]

37. I'd rather have a care-giver than force myself on someone else.

I don't have kids, but I would never want them to be forced to take care of me. I'll buy long-term care insurance and hire a care-giver to help me if my husband had already passed away.

[Sandpiper]

93. I think it's also pretty naive

To think that because you have kids, they're going to take care of you when you get old. How many people have gotten trundled off to a nursing home by the very children that were supposed to take care of them?

[Maestro]

29. I think one of the best decisions

is to decide if you want kids or not. As a teacher, I see too many parents who obviously didn't want them. That is worse than not having them. There are plenty of people in this world, if you do not want them, that is your decision and people must respect that.

Having said that, I am glad I had these two.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. No kids, but not accused

I feel that there are too many people in the world as it is, and that I wouldn't contribute to the population explosion. I was single until I was 39, however, and folks usually didn't ask me because they just figured I was 'being moral'.

[Liberal Veteran]

31. Paradoxically, people choose to have children for selfish reasons.

Whether it's to carry on the family line or just an inate desire to have children, it's primarily a selfish decision regardless of the motive.

One could argue, the decision to have or not to have children is ALWAYS a selfish decision.

I found that making such a statement tends to piss off certain parents (primarily those who think childbearing is some kind of obligation that childless people shirk selfishly), but the fact is that the decision to have children is usually the result of a self-centered desire.

It upsets the martyrdom complex that some parents have to suggest it, but if we look at WHY people have children, it is no more or less selfish than the decision not to have children.

[NightTrain]

32. "Selfish," my ass!

I've known plenty of people with kids who never should've had them because they were terrible parents. Besides, there are too goddamned many people in the world now. Why add to the overpopulation problem?

If anything, I admire people who choose not to have kids. In our puritan-based society, it takes courage to remain childless!

[Lorien]

33. With more than six billion people on the planet

I'd say it's "selfish" to have more than one child of one's own (ducking flames). There are millions of orphans out there who are desperately in need of love and a place to call home. There are over a MILLION orphans in India due to the spread of AIDS alone!

I know a fair number of Fundies down here that announce that couples without a great number of children are "selfish". Some of these people have six kids or more, and providing for them is, needless to say, a challenge. How can modern parents give each child adequate time every day, with wages falling ever lower and some people needing to take two or three jobs just to keep the lights on?

Then there's the problem of our natural resources. Within fifty years, there will be NO MORE rainforests anywhere on the planet at our current rate of consumption. The rainforests are the planet's lungs-so how will life exist without them? If every country on earth adopted America's rate of consumption, we would need FIVE uninhabited planets to support them.

I would love to have kids someday, but I decided long ago that if I ever did, they would be adopted. I don't feel that my genetics are important enough to perpetuate when there is so much need out there. Unfortunately, I've never met a man who felt the same way!

[prole_for_peace]

34. i am a 38 year old female who doesn't want kids.

i don't have any kind of biological clock or maternal instinct or whatever. i have never wanted kids and if that makes me selfish so be it. but who i really think are selfish are people with kids who act like you are a nazi because you don't think that their children acting up in public (restaurants, movies...) are the cutest thing ever. i have been in restaurants where the parents are ignoring their children and the kids are yelling and squealing and throwing things. when the parents see me giving them "the look" they act all put out. i don't blame the kids. of course restaurants and movies are boring for them if they are under a certain age. even cartoons won't entertain a 5 year old for 2 hours in a theater.

[curse10]

35. I've heard this argument before

and I think it's sick. You can make the exact opposite argument. people who have kids because they "want" them or "deserve" them. All the fertility drugs. Babies being born sick and weak because they were sharing the womb with 6 other babies. THAT's selfish. Thinking of your happiness before thinking of the health of your child. Thinking of your happiness before thinking of the thousands of unwanted children anxiously waiting for a home.

[geniph]

102. Hear, hear!

I absolutely agree.

[dawn]

36. I have been accused of this, and this is what I say:

I think it can sometimes be just as selfish I have kids. Some people with children seem to have them for their own benefit...to show them off to other people, or to create little "mini-me's." Or to have someone take care of them when they are old.

They also don't care if their screaming kids annoy other diners, or fellow air travelers. How selfish is that?

More people = more strain on the planet's resources. How is it selfish to not have kids because you care about the Earth?

Honestly, I could care less if someone thinks my decision is selfish or immature.

[tjwash]

38. Huh?

That jerk is the one being selfish. I live in soccer mom hell here, and they all act like we are breaking the law because "golly you two live in that big house, and don't have any kids? What's wrong?". They are ALL convinced in my neighborhood that my wife and I are just the most miserable people in the world, because we don't have a dozen kids and an SUV in our driveway. I hate it when someone brings up that subject, and my defense of a childless lifestyle is shot down by one of their nonsensical, decision to ruin their life reasons.

:nopity:"Children are our FUTURE!":nopity:

Indeed, and that is exactly what their children will say about their children, and what their children will say about their children. In the meantime, everyone is too busy spawning the future to try to ensure we have one.

[catzies]

110. Your last sentence is BRILLIANT.

Spot on.

(still-single mother of one who's all grown up)

[yellowcanine]

39. Well from a biological point of view the "selfish" thing to do is to have

your own kids, that is, reproduce your own genes. It it could even be argued that adoption has some selfish motivations, as one is anticipating some return in the form of a child's affection for a parent. Your coworker has it all wrong - and I say this as the parent of 2 children.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. In my experience, people who call non-parents "selfish"

are parents who secretly hate having children and can't stand it that someone else is free of the burden. What's really selfish is spending thousands of dollars on fertility techniques because you have to pass on your own genes instead of adopting an existing child who needs a home or having a child and then treating it like a trophy child, grooming it and making it do clever things to impress the neighbors.

That being said, I know that some people are just naturally maternal or paternal, and they should have children.

I'm still single, and while I wanted to have children, I didn't want to become a single mother on purpose. I could see from my observations of people with children that it requires a tremendous amount of time or energy. I didn't want to do it alone.

At this point in my life, the best I can hope for is being a stepmother, or more likely, a stepgrandmother. That's not the worst of fates. My stepfather is the only grandfather three out of four of my nieces and nephews have ever known.

[Ann Arbor Dem]

41. Female here...I decided at the age of 25 that I didn't want to have kids

I'm 45 now and have never regretted it. No one has ever accused me of being selfish, but I wouldn't take it lightly if someone did.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. Personal choice...Just don't cry to me about it later on..

;). I think people with many children are making a personal choice as well. Let's not judge.

[FizzFuzz]

53. but that personal choice affects ME

decreased wild land, increased destruction of biodiversity, increased use of resources (dwindling resources will also lead to increased crime and war), increased school taxes, increased insurance and medical costs, increased disease and man-made catastrophes, increased waste, increased consumption and increasingly aggressive entities supporting said consumerism such as marketing, increased beaurocracy, increased crime, increased need for new infrastructure and increased wear on existing infrastructure, longer lines at the artificial natural habitat facsimiles such as the Rain Forest Cafe, etc etc etc

[TXlib]

57. So one could turn the question around, considering these points...

And ask if those who bring children into the world (or at least, those who do more than procreate for replacement, 2 children per couple) are being selfish...

Equally valid question. Equally smug and sanctimonious.

[FizzFuzz]

60. you lost me I'm afraid

at "Equally smug and sanctimonious". I really don't see where I was being smug and sanctimonious; I was stating facts. Yes, I was ANGRILY stating facts, I'll cop to that.

my point: there are consequences to overpopulation that erode my and everyone else's quality of life--hell, destruction of quality is just the start. Overpopulation comes from too many people having too many kids.

Compare: anyone's decision to remain happily childfree impinges upon no-one except perhaps for those who think some big guy said "be fruitful and multiply"(They never seem to think about that directive being given to a population of 2)

[TXlib]

66. My point was simply that

to pass judgement on others because they made different choices than you (generic you, not 'you' specifically) did is smug and sanctimonious, either way.

[FizzFuzz]

79. as I said in my comment

I'm passing judgement on actions that affect the planet and all of us...it is not merely a matter of a choice different than mine. I'm not talking about personal belief system choices that do not impinge on others.

If you're equating the numerous consequences of overpopulation which I listed with personal choices that are none of anyone else's business, then I hope you don't support things like environmental protection laws, since dumping mercury into the water system would be a company's personal choice. Or separation of church and state, since the belief that Jesus chose our pResident is a part of their personal choice in faith.

[Pithlet]

84. We all make choices that affect others

Whether we have children or not. Unless you are living in a hut with no electricity, drawing your water from a self-dug well, and growing and providing your own food, you are also waisting resources. So, for anyone not living as I stated above, is it selfish to not commit suicide?

Yes, the "equally smug and self-righteous" DOES apply, as someone else in this thread stated, when using the resources argument to judge other people for making a choice that you did not. I could maintain that I know environmentally conscious families with multiple children who waste less resources than a single person living in the sub-urbs driving a Humvee.

[FizzFuzz]

88. OK, you wanna call me smug?Fine,I'm smug and I'm self righteous

so now that you've succeeded in calling me names, I'd like to say it angers me that anyone could possibly try to call the resources argument nothing but meaningless semantics.

The more people there are on the planet, the more urgent the resources argument becomes. The more people there are, the less one families good habits will offset the rest, because the fact is, human activities use up resources and create waste.

I'm glad that you know environmentally conscious families; so do I. I know more people who are moderately Enviro conscious, and many who aren't particularly careful at all. That is a fact of life. The more people burdening the planet, the more everyone will be impacted, and the more everyone's quality of life will be affected.

Population is increasing exponentially. Species are being extincted at a rate of about 5/day (I think..could be more, I would need to google that) There is so much scientific research that verifies the damage being done by a continuously expanding human population, that trying to argue it away serves no positive purpose.

anyway, I'm not arguing for martial law here or enforced sterilization. What would be nice is some balance, encouraging more widespread education on effects of population, more reinforcement for childfree choices, more realistic awareness and education of what parenting is really about, more encouragement for girls to explore other paths besides motherhood.

[Pithlet]

89. Calm down. I wasn't calling you names.

It's one thing to talk about the population problem which I agree is very real. It is quite another to call one selfish for a personal choice they made. I could just as easily accuse you of name calling, in that regard.

I think the argument itself is quite smug unless you absolutely do everything you possibly can to limit the resources you use. On an individual basis, one could do a lot more than having kids to leave a negative impact on this earth.

[FizzFuzz]

98. OK, I'm trying to be calm

clearly, this is an issue that is very emotionally fraught for me. It isn't easy to discuss it dispassionately, and I am probably going to make mistakes.

Anyhow, I really don't see what is smug about giving a list of the effects of overpopulation? Honestly, you are right to sense my anger, its there and thats a fact. But when you say

<I think the argument itself is quite smug unless you absolutely do everything you possibly can to limit the resources you use. On an individual basis, one could do a lot more than having kids to leave a negative impact on this earth.>

to me, THAT sounds smug. To me, that sounds like you're saying that only people who live a certain kind of lifestyle (that is quite difficult to maintain, given that this is the 21 century, in an industrialized consumption oriented nation), are permitted to mention certain facts.

Everyone SHOULD do all they can, but that doesn't mean they will. Everyone is human. Everyone creates a footprint no matter how careful they are. I happen to think that if there were more enouragements for responsible breeding, less romanticization of motherhood and children, more discussion of the reality of it, we could then have more to give to those kids who are here, and to ourselves.

[Pithlet]

100. It;s okay, we all have our issues that are emotionally fraught.

to me, THAT sounds smug. To me, that sounds like you're saying that only people who live a certain kind of lifestyle (that is quite difficult to maintain, given that this is the 21 century, in an industrialized consumption oriented nation), are permitted to mention certain facts.

That is not what I'm saying. It isn't just limited resources that are the problem, but it is the allocation of those resources. THAT is where we need to put the blame, not on people who are doing what human beings have been doing since we occupied this planet. Otherwise, all you're doing is painting others with a broad brush of judgment, the same way that those who are parents judge those who don't have children. I can just as easily come up with examples of childless people telling me the same thing you are while driving an SUV 30 miles each way to work while buyng and throwing away a new wardrobe every season and living in an air conditioned 3000 square foot home on their own. It goes both ways.

Do you see what I'm saying? It isn't dismissing those issues that you bring up to note that judging others using those issues as a marker is hypocritical for anyone who isn't doing absolutely everything they can. Better to work towards those changes than point the finger at everyone else and say THEY are the problem.

[FizzFuzz]

103. I'm not the only person here making these points

<<Do you see what I'm saying? It isn't dismissing those issues that you bring up to note that judging others using those issues as a marker is hypocritical for anyone who isn't doing absolutely everything they can. Better to work towards those changes than point the finger at everyone else and say THEY are the problem.>>

Do I see what you're saying...umm frankly? Not entirely.
You continue to say that facts are judgements. And that by mentioning them, one is a finger pointing hypocrite because you assume they are not doing absolutely everything they can. That's probably a correct assumption too, because most of us here in the US do what they can, when they can, imperfectly. But absolutely everything, all the time? Usually not. Unless you'd like to promote that guy--whats his name, the Unabomber's lifestyle as a model for us all to emulate.

<<THAT is where we need to put the blame, not on people who are doing what human beings have been doing since we occupied this planet. Otherwise, all you're doing is painting others with a broad brush of judgment, the same way that those who are parents judge those who don't have children.>>
....As far as not blaming people for doing what human beings have been doing since we occupied the planet----That's fine when the planet was inhabited by less than 1 million people...But when the number is 6 billion, when the impact of all those people is already being felt worldwide, then people need to use their brains as well as their emotions and their crotches, and practice some restraint. And calling that a judgement on a level with parents saying "people without kids are selfish" is wrong. Sorry, thats blunt of me, but there you have it.

How many kids do you have? Did you birth them or are they adopted?
Do you have a car? What kind? How many? Other gas consuming vehicles? How much plastic do you have--plastic of any kind from TV's, flooring, vinyl siding, kids toys and playground stuff to tupperware...How do you heat your house?
Do you expect your kids to own one or more cars one day? To own a house? To give you grandchildren? Is your house old or is it new in a new development in a suburb or exurb that had to be built on wildland and then furnished with its own array of strip malls?

No one will live perfectly and I think its a mistake to claim that until one is perfect, they may not speak on what is imperfect. And I did make suggestions for raising awareness, that in my opinion, are absolutely reasonable and respectful.

[Pithlet]

104. I'm not the one

criticizing others for their choices so why are you asking me all those questions? Frankly, those questions are none of your business anyway.

You aren't the only one in this thread, but you have given the impression that you think having children is a selfish thing to do. If I was mistaken, I'm sorry. This thread was about whether or not NOT having children was selfish, and there were a lot of knee-jerk "people who have kids are selfish" rants in this thread, which is EXACTLY the same kind of judgment those very same people are complaining about getting from people with children.

And again, you missed my point. I did NOT say that people cannot speak out on things like overpopulation unless they are perfect. Read my post again.

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. The trappings of living in a free country. Maybe one of the children

of the selfish people who are "affecting" you will come up with a solution. ;)

[FizzFuzz]

80. well, with a wink back atcha, and with all due respect

I've heard this type of remark before "But that child could be the next Einstein."

True, but it could also be the next Jeffrey Dahmer.

Doesn't mean that we all ought to reproduce limitlessly. In a free country, we have a choice; but a responsible person also considers the results of those choices.

As far as "selfish people 'affecting' ME", I was being referring only to myself facetiously, assuming it was clear that the dangers of overpopulation affect us ALL. If you truly think that the consequences of overpopulation which I listed "affect" only me, then there's no further discussion about this issue because you have missed the critical point.

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. Feh...

"I've heard this type of remark before "But that child could be the next Einstein."

True, but it could also be the next Jeffrey Dahmer."

So why let it bother you? Let's find solutions for these problems instead of blaming others self righteously.

I, for one, wish I could have had four children...but I lost to many late term pregnancies and couldn't go through another.

Different strokes for different folks.

And no your point wasn't missed.

Have a Super Day! :hi:

[FizzFuzz]

90. so why didn't you adopt some more?

I'm sorry your other pregnancies didn't work out, but if its actually children you love, there are loads of kids out there right now who need you.

Now then, what does "feh" mean? I thought it was equivalent to "blow it out your ear." If that is in fact what you meant by "feh", then "Have a Super Day! :hi:" sounds a little disingenuous.

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. Nope, I meant have a super day!

Believe me, I have asked my husband to adopt. :hi:

[SarahB]

43. Individual choice

Some people don't want children or they don't want them until they're older (easier for men though). I'm glad we live in a time of decent birth control where we are able to make these choices. I think people who have children and then don't take proper care of them are the ones who are selfish. Knowing your own limits isn't.

[BBradley]

44. Actually, I think it's just the opposite.

At this stage, people should be sacrificing the continuation of their genes for a better future for everyone else. It might not be fair, but it's soon going to be a necessity.

[thebaghwan]

45. My brother, who I was not raised with, doesn't want kids because he is

so caught up in himself he couldn't possibly love something else.

[cmf]

46. All personal choices are made for selfish reasons

Ask anyone why they want to have children and you'll find reasons that are just as selfish. "I want someone to nurture...I want to be a good parent...I want someone to carry on my name...We just want to be parents." Just because you have to give things up to be a parent doesn't mean that you didn't make the choice that fulfilled your own self interest the most.

Saying someone who chooses to be child-free is selfish is just B.S.

[Scout]

47. I'm 44 and child free!

My husband and I don't want children. We are not selfish. And, it's not a child-less life, it's a child-free life. I find that semantic distinction says a lot about how a person feels/thinks about not having children. (It's not a totally child free life, we do enjoy to spend time with nieces and nephews, and great-nieces and -nephews.)

Child free by choice!

[MaineDem]

48. We have no children

I've been accused of being selfish. I have 7 nieces who I love dearly and we've spoiled them as they grew up.

The last time I went to church the priest's sermon was about childless couples and how they weren't living up to their potential. I swear to God he said that. I almost walked out! I was pissed. He had no idea why people remain childless. I haven't been back to church since. (But that involves the Catholic Church's pedophile problems as well as this insensitive sermon.)

I met a woman last weekend who has 12 children. Why on earth would anyone do that? I can't understand that at all.

This is such a personal choice. My husband and I made that decision almost 30 years ago. Maybe I'll regret it someday but I haven't yet.

[SmokingJacket]

49. Why do people want to ascribe evil motives

to people who've made decisions different from theirs? Everyone is selfish!!! Or has the potential to be, kids or not. This whole topic makes me nuts.

I have kids, because I like kids. That's kinda selfish. However, dealing with them day to day requires that I not be selfish -- I have to think of them.

My childless friends are childless for a variety of reasons. Some hate kids, some just really love their careers. I don't see that "selfishness" plays into anyone's decision really.

[slackmaster]

77. Egoism and intellectual laziness

It's so much easier to attribute bad traits to people who think differently than to change one's own attitudes to accommodate them.

[Pithlet]

85. Drives me nuts, too.

Slackmaster got it right. It is intellectual laziness.

[FizzFuzz]

50. good question

<<Is there anybody here who made the decision not to have kids and have come across being accused of being selfish or even immature?>>

nahhhh.

I do get accused of being selfish and immature, however, when I kick children, steal their candy, and then push them down the stairs.

[liberalhistorian]

51. I think childless adults, especially t hose

who've made the conscious choice to be childless, are actually far more selfless than those who have children because they think they have to since that's what the culture tells them to do even though they don't really want them and don't make very good parents.

It's much better not to have kids than to have kids and not really want them and/or not parent them properly. And nothing pisses me off more than people who think they have the right to judge others for not having children when they're not the ones who have to deal with the decision, and it's none of their goddamn business to begin with.

[ikojo]

52. I have no kids and have never pined for children..

I come from a family of seven kids. I think my mom and dad and my siblings have more than contributed enough kids to the world.

I don't think people who choose to be childfree (not childless because I don't see my life as being less than by not having children) are selfish. I think they know themselves better than those who follow the script society has written for them by having the 2.2 kids and the house in the burbs.

I think many people who have kids are incredibly selfish. They demand that everything be child friendly (even adult oriented events such as Mardi Gras) and rated G or at the very most PG 13. I think there is a place for adult oriented TV shows and events and those for kids. I don't think everything needs to be fit for a 10 year old. If parents cannot decide whether something is appropriate for their kid, then perhaps they should not be parents. Not everything revolves around their kid.

[Lisa]

54. as an only child growing up in the 70s, I was in a similar situation

On one occasion, a teacher made me stand up in class and "explain" to the other kids why I didn't have siblings. Given that I was rather shy, plus one of the youngest in the class, it wasn't a pleasant experience for me -- it rapidly degenerated into a "something's wrong in Lisa's family" ordeal.

Ever since then, I've been pretty militant about defending anybody who's being hassled about having (or not having) children. In my book, it's just not cool to pick on people about this -- and especially wrong to pick on the kids! Too often it's racial or socio-economic prejudice disguised as "innocent" curiosity.

It is nobody else's business to pass judgement based on number of offspring. There are MANY reasons why people would decide not to have kids, and all the ones I can think of are simply not the sort of thing that ought to involve passing strangers! ("I'll see you your 'you must hate children' and raise you a 'the doctor said childbirth would be fatal'", anyone?)

Regarding the "too many" side, I know many families with multiple children who use less in the way of resources than some single-child families -- so if anybody is using "overpopulation" arguments purely to make others feel rotten, it's not environmentalism they're pushing.

As Cascadian pointed out, having kids solely to carry on the family name (or because everybody else is having them; because one's biological clock is ringing; to showcase one's reproductive prowess; or because it means getting a lot of attention and shoring up a deteriorating relationship) -- those would be "selfish" and "immature" as well, and fortunately I don't know anybody who conceived a child on that basis, or they would be calling me to help babysit after the first 24 hours!

And surely, even childless people are helping raise other people's offspring. We pay taxes -- we pull stray toddlers away from busy intersections -- some of us are spending our lives feeding/supervising/educating/cleaning up after someone else's kids. If I really were a grumpy irresponsible misanthrope, I'd be in a different line of work.

[skippysmom]

71. same here

I liked being an only child, and was pretty well-adjusted, but other people seemed to think I was some sort of a freak show. That's why I try not to pass judgement on other families' choices. Just MYOB.

There is an element of selfishness in any choice. My husband and I are both 32 and have been married almost 2 years. We are interested in having kids, but we both feel that if we don't have kids we're fine with that too. We were going to start trying this year and have decided to put if off for a while till we can move up in our careers, save more money, buy a slightly bigger house -- and just enjoy being married by traveling and doing other fun things that would be harder to do once we had kids. Yep, it sounds selfish, doesn't it?

Yet why do we want to have kids? Because we want to raise part of the future generation and grow a family. Pretty selfish too.

(I just wish my friends with kids -- and my in laws -- would stop nagging us about when we're going to have kids. Maybe we'll have a kid -- or two. Or maybe we won't. When we're ready, we'll let you know.)

[TXlib]

55. There are lots of reasons people don't have kids

I know some people who don't have kids because of genetic problems in their families, and they don't want to pass it on.

Some people don't have kids because they think there are already too many people.

Some people don't have kids because they know they'd be bad parents.

Some people value their peace and quiet, and like the free-cash flow associated with childless status, and like the free time they have. If these same people had had kids, I have little doubt most of them would have made fine parents.

One of my childless friends is one of the most generous people I know. He and his wife like being able to travel, go out, and be their own people when they want.

It certainly is better than having kids, and being bitter at them for your loss of freedom.

I don't think they're selfish. I think parents who believe that are thrusting their morality on others, or else are envious of their acquaintances' childless lifestyle, and are trying to put a negative spin on it.

[Eurobabe]

56. not

honestly, if I hadn't had my two lovelies when I was in my early 20s, faced with this decision now (given today's f*cked up circumstances) -- I wouldn't bring a child into this world.

this is a personal decision, and you are not to be made to feel "selfish" ferchrisssakes, if you don't want children simply don't have them. Nothing wrong with opting out. I respect people more who really think about this decision rather than falling victim to the herd mentality and having little hood ornaments. n/t

[Rick in Maryland]

58. It's the breeders that are the selfish ones. <NT>

[Susang]

59. My question: So what if it is selfish?

What then? I think a lot of things are for selfish reasons, myself. I know of many women, some of them friends, who had more children for almost purely selfish reasons. Did it work out okay for them? Sometimes. Either way, it doesn't matter, personal life choices are nobody else's business but those involved.

If strangers or mere acquaintences or co-workers are are accusing you of being selfish (even in a round-about away) for choosing not to have children, then they deserve whatever outrageous answer you choose to provide them with.

I've horrified many a rude inquiry into my child-free status with some real whoppers that I dreamt up to answer their question in the most outlandish and potentially offensive way possible. I feel no regret, their presumptious and superior demand for an explaination for my lack of offspring deserves an appropriate response. }(

[Pithlet]

61. Why on earth would it be selfish?

Anyone who thinks so is being an idiot.

[scarlet_owl]

67. How is that selfish?

It's a personal decision. I hate the pressure people put on you to have children. My husband and I have been married for four years and are childless, though not by choice. I've had enough of people asking me when I'm going to have children. I don't see how it is anyone's business.

[TXlib]

68. another point about childless couples

they pay taxes that pay for the education of others' children. And most of them aren't particularly upset about it; they tend to view it as paying after the fact for their own education.

[HuckleB]

69. As they should.

Unfortunately, more and more of them are whining about it. Here in Portland, we've got a bunch of them who want dogs to take primacy over children in city parks. Alas, while the majority don't fit this description, those who do fit it are among a growing population.

By the way, I am one half of a childless couple, married for almost twelve years.

[GOPisEvil]

70. Having an educated society is a good thing.

Worth the taxes. I figure that if I pony up for some decent schools, that more decent, thinking individuals will be the result.

[slackmaster]

78. Yes, I'm happy to pay to educate other people's children

The cost of NOT educating them could be so much higher in the long run.

[K8-EEE]

73. As A Mother Of Two I Say: HAIL TO THE CHILDLESS!!

When I see those wacky posts on FR about "continuing your DNA/gene pool" or whatever, it's just the most selfish thing in the world to have kids for that reason....like their DNA is so perfect or something?

We need more SPACE!!

My childless friend gets really sick of her friends telling her, oh you don't understand, you don't have kids. I think that's kind of a rude thing to say. None of us can ever REALLY understand the individual challenges we face but the parents among us can sometimes be a little self-important, IMO, like their kids are the most important humans on the planet totally disregarding the broader world they live in...

[Delano]

74. Childless adults are missing something...

...namely the joy of raising children.

However, folks like me, who raise kids, are also missing something - freedom. The freedom to truly devote yourself to your career or craft, to become the person you always wanted to be. Nad the financial freedom to spend your own money on yourself!

I often envy folks without kids, but I wouldn't change places for a million bucks, and I imagine a great many of them wouldn't either.

And I agree with the previous poster who said any more than 6 kids is selfish. As a matter of fact, I think any more than the 2 kids it takes to replace you and your spouse is selfish and irresponsible, given the horrible environmental and population problems.

Childless folks and folks raising reasonable numbers of kids are not selfish.

[Susang]

92. Joy is in the eye of the beholder

That's what couples with (and without) children need to remember when discussing their counterparts. I am not missing any "joy" I assure you. If you knew me, you'd understand that. I also know quite a few people with children who do not feel that they are lacking in freedom. They just define freedom differently than I do. It's all in how you look at it. ;-)

[HEyHEY]

75. Fuck that - we're under no obligation to have kids

What does having kids do for mankind? I don't see how the hell anyone can say you're selfish because you don't have kids. What a crock of shit.

[slackmaster]

76. It's nobody's business why I decided not to have children

I argued that people who decide not have kids made a conscience decision and they do not want the responsibility of having to raise children.

Not wanting the responsibility is just one among a broad spectrum of possible reasons. My own reasons have nothing to do with responsibility, I don't owe anyone an explanation, and I don't care what other people think about it.

I think it's extremely inappropriate for someone to bring up that kind of topic with a co-worker.

[SiouxJ]

82. Of course not. That's ridiculous

Having 12 kids, like my district's Repuke representative Rick Renzi, is selfish. People that have these ridiculously large families put a strain on our environment. They use more of everything and think that's just fine. That's selfish. I have chosen not to have any kids myself, and I have nothing against having a few kids but come on, control yourself!

[fortyfeetunder]

108. Well how about fifteen kids (and possibly still breeding)?

I agree also anyone with more than probably two these days are selfish. They are consuming a finite resource on our planet. Not to mention wastewater, landfills...and so forth.

But this story just had me shaking my head. And the fact Arkansas named this woman "Young Mother of the Year" is an incredible slap in the face to the mothers who actually struggle and succeed as compared to those whose only claim to fame is breeding....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/25/fifteen.kids.ap/

[LynneSin]

83. Childless and proud of it

I do NOT think I'm selfish because I do not want to have children. I think I would be selfish in thinking I had to have children to justify my existance on earth.

[Commendatori]

86. Selfish? What a load of shit.

It's selfish of him to expect you to live your life around his ideals. This person you're speaking of is a complete asshole.

For those who want kids, I think any number is okay if the parents can afford them and give them proper attention. However, I'm in your boat - I don't want kids (I've had the possibility surgically precluded), and my life has more meaning than just being here to breed my replacements.

[Sticky]

87. I care for unwanted children every day....

Don't succumb to outside pressures to have children. Only you know what's right for you. :)

[Bertha Venation]

91. Selfish? How is not having children selfish?

Toward whom is one behaving selfishly -- the unborn children? :wtf:

GMAB. I don't have kids because I was raised by people who shouldn't have had kids.

[Lindacooks]

94. It's the other way around

I've heard more people say 'I want to have kids so someone will love me' or 'having kids will help when you're old'. Even 'I don't want to adopt because I want my OWN kids'. Many, many people have kids just to make them feel 'immortal'. Or because society expects it, or because their parents want grandkids.

How on earth can not having children be selfish? Selfish how? By not increasing the burden on the planet? My mind boggles at that stupidity.

[Pithlet]

95. So,

What are you doing to minimize your impact on this planet?

[SW FL Dem]

96. Not

I am a mom but I understand and respect those who choose not to be a parent.

[BiggJawn]

97. I think people with Broods are the selfish ones.

"Oh, look at us! we are FERTILE!!! (CRASH!!) Ooops! sorry, well, YOU can't imagine what it's like trying to herd 8 kids!"

No I can't, and I'm damn glad. haven't those people ever heard of Birth Control?

How do you raise 8-9-10-11 or more kids on a farm tractor mechanic's salary? And most of these folks are "Caro Cult Rethugs" who listen to Rush and think only brown people get "welfare". They get "Assistance"...

[blindpig]

99. and how many people are there on this planet?

Way too many. A generous estimate of the carrying capacity of this planet is 2 billion. So who's selfish?

edited for dumb fingers

[geniph]

101. How the hell can using FEWER resources

be construed as selfish? Selfish to whom? Their unfertilized gametes? What a strange concept.

I'm a 44-year-old child-free-by-choice female. I am the youngest of 13 children. I KNOW how stupid it is to have more children than you can support, and I call THAT selfish - the rest of society gets to pay for your little genetic ego-trip.

[bluestateguy]

105. He's just spouting Dr. Laura crap

The best thing people who don't want to have kids can do for mankind is to not have them. To many people out there are having kids as some kind of a rite of passage or because it's the Stepford Suburbia thing to do to keep up with the Joneses. That's wrong, and I would argue, selfish and anti-family. Still, your colleague's remarks are typical of the religious right's orthodoxy, which says that parents should be given an elevated social status over non-parents.

[FizzFuzz]

111. right. Meanwhile, "non-parents" are expected to fill in at work

for the breeders who have to leave work early to take little Snotley or Brattelina to soccer.

I was stopped from taking a class because I had to take over for a woman with six kids--she had to be home for the kids because it was her husband's weekly bowling night. Mind you, I had never before in my 20 years there asked for scheduling concessions to accomodate my personal life. Thats right, just keep taking it out of our hides, hand it over to the poor struggling parents (Hey I thought conservatives are against gov't handouts?) and then we can all die together in a world with no more trees and perpetual resource wars :grr:

[Pithlet]

113. Maybe you had the wrong job.

I never had that problem in all my years of working. In other words, parents worked just as hard and put in the hours the way non-parents did. My husband just put in a 100 hour work week and went months without a day off. All of this parent bashing is getting really old.

[Red State Rebel]

106. No, but I don't think it's selfish to have as many kids as you want.

I don't believe in the "using resources" argument. We have 4 kids, I adore every one of them (particularly now that they are grown!). I think it's wrong to pass judgement either way.

I don't think people that can't afford it or have the mental capacity to correctly raise children should have them, but I don't support forced birth control over it.

I've seen large families that were more emotionally stable than some of the small families I know. Nobody can generalize and judge about such a personal situation.

[NashVegas]

112. I Decided 'No Kids' At Age 11

And don't regret it, more for the potential replicants' sakes than my own.

Except for the fact I've had extraordinarily good health all my life, the gene pool's not missing much that it can't get anywhere else.

[LWolf]

114. Not.

It's a socially responsible choice. There are too many people who have kids for the wrong reasons. Who have kids but don't like kids or provide them with loving, stable families to grow up in.

And there are more than 6 billion people on earth. We're not in any danger of dying out as a species because of a low birth-rate. As a matter of fact, that's another reason why staying childless is a socially responsible choice.

Either choice, to have kids or to not have kids, is fine with me. I value responsible choice.

[Mobius]

115. Yes, I have no children and it is anything but selfish.

It is selfless that I don't need to engage in the procreation of my gene pool, to satisfy some biological urge. If I ever do have children, I will adopt a child who has lost thier parents, and would otherwise have no hope of a somewhat prosperous future.