WTF? Kiddie Car Shopping Carts???

[Zomby Woof]

:wtf:

I was in Safeway yesterday, and I hear this kid YOWLING, if for no other reason than to ANNOY. I muttered "put a sock in it", and a nearby woman laughed in agreement.

I turn the corner, and what do I see?

A woman pushing a shopping cart, and in some kind of strange, mutated fashion, the front is some kind of KIDDIE CAR. A fake car! The cart itself almost seemed incidental. An afterthought.

I had never seen one of these before. Moving to a new region of the country, I guess.

The brat was screaming and yelling for no reason at all, and his clueless moo, I mean, mom, just continued as if nothing was wrong.

I gave her a good glare as she passed me. Lucky for her, I was in a very good mood, and less inclined to speak up as I would normally be so inclined to do.

So what is wrong with our culture? How far must we go to indulge the spoiled spawn of American Suburbia? Why isn't riding shotgun in the cart any good any more? It worked for me and countless others.

What's next? Express lanes with tire changes?

This rant stems from part of a larger concern of mine. Too many parents think their kids are in charge, and "consult" with them on decisions with which they should have no basis in taking part. I have seen parents ask their kids permission to leave a store, for example.

I don't remember being given such unearned power in my youth, and rightly so.

Folks... Grandma wouldn't have stood for this shit.

[jmm]

1. I'd rather see

a child in a car attached to the front of the cart then some little brat crashing into me with a miniature cart of their own.

[Zomby Woof]

4. A mini-cart??

Yow! I have been lucky enough not to see those either! Same rant applies then, lol.

[ILeft]

8. And they lose interest in the miniature cart after 5 minutes...

...leaving mom or dad or guardian to hunch over and push it along with the regular cart.

All I can add is that things like shopping cart cars cannot be really understood unless one has had kids. Personally, I think they are great-- anything to get throught the store. Kids, by nature, don't snap to attention and take orders to ride "shotgun." Would we really want them to? At least they're not little Humvees attached to the carts-- I would NOT allow that!

[Zomby Woof]

11. um

Well, I used to BEG my Mom to let me ride in the front of the cart. I never had to be persuaded. And I damn well behaved, because sitting in the (real) car was not my idea of fun.

I guess I was raised right, and expect too much of others.

[deek]

102. It's against the law

to leave children unattended in the car.

[Capn Sunshine]

128. It was common in the 40's and 50's to do so.

but hey, we didn't have child seats either. My first memories of cars involve our 55 Chevy Nomad--two doors and the rear seats fold down which was how we rode around.

[RobinA]

103. Me Too!

No way did we misbehave in the grocery store, or we would have been in big trouble when we got home. Screaming? Don't think so. Begging for stuff? No way. Whining that we were bored? Never. Our mother asking if it was OK to leave the store? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[LynneSin]

2. These things should be banned

They are a nuasance to other customers at the grocery story and a real danger. I quit shopping at my grocery store because of the kiddie carts (and the fact that they have somewhat narrow aisles which makes it more dangerous). I found another grocery store about a half mile the other direction and NO kiddie carts of any sort!

[Zomby Woof]

6. They're huge!

Now I know why the aisles seemed bigger than I was used to, but it didn't help much. It was a tight squeeze as she passed by.

Should have worn my copper-goldish suit!

[sexybomber]

119. I agree.

I work in a grocery store and I have a deep-seated hatred for the kiddie carts. They're friggin' impossible to move around. I told management to get rid of them, but they said parents complained that we didn't have them and the store down the road did, so we had to keep them. :grr:

[buckfush2]

3. zomby give up the old codger routine

the shopping cart with a car attached to the front is not new, nor is there anything wrong with it.
It gives parents a secure place for the kids while shopping, and eliminates kids grabbing stuff off the shelf, saving parents and stores money, and saving other shoppers from observing it.. The parent can then shop more thoughtfully, comparing prices etc without distraction.

Not all progress is bad, and my daughter loves to go grocery shopping now. Before it was always a chore to get hewr to stay in the seat for an hour or more.

[Zomby Woof]

9. it's no routine

I am Grade A Misanthrope, with particular ire saved for the little humans.

It may be nothing new, but I lived in WA state for 15 years, shopped at EVERY major grocery chain in a half dozen or more cities, and NEVER saw one until I arrived in a new state this month. So they are new to me, and worthy of my contempt.

Whatver bonuses that car provides, it didn't stop the kid from yelling and MOANING like a crazed hyena on speed. That was part of my rant - the sense of entitlement that led to the invention of the cart manifests itself with lazy parenting. There is a relationship between the two.

[wtmusic]

12. Small carts = lazy parenting?

Gimme a break.

[Zomby Woof]

16. in most cases, yes

You're just being defensive. The rule with my rants is: If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. In my case yesterday, it applied in spades.

So no break for you. Back to work.

[wtmusic]

24. Defensive?

Your words:

"the sense of entitlement that led to the invention of the cart manifests itself with lazy parenting."

My kids loved the carts, it gave them some responsibility and probably kept them quieter.

Blanket statement applied to specific situation alert. Back to work yourself.

[Braden]

5. my kids love those things

they are so happy down there doing the driving.

I think your frustration is with parents who gave up on trying to moderate their kids behavior long before you arrived at the Safeway.

Don't paint us all with that brush, Or my kid will run over your foot!

[wtmusic]

7. Agree

Problem's not with the cart, but with the parents

[BigMcLargehuge]

10. My son loves those

He is a two year old car fanatic. His first word was car. He sleeps with matchbox cars in his hands. He races cars on the coffee table.

I like those carts, if for no other reason, they bring a little more joy to his life.

it's not indulging his every whim, it's fertilizing his imagination.

AS for the kids you saw crying, who knows, maybe his mom just whacked him, maybe he stubbed his toe, maybe he just lost an argument about sugary breakfast cereal. To assume that the cart, and his riging within, was somehow responsible for his agitation is a stretch. Ask youself this too, what do you know about the mother's situation? Maybe she'd much rather be playing in the yard with the kid but can't because she has to put in several hours of overtime to make ends meet, maybe the kid spent all day in a day care setting, maybe dad and mom don't get along, maybe they don't live together, maybe the mom was inattentive...

None of this matters though, right?

Kids are the victims of their environment, and yes, sometimes they cry and carry on. Bet you dollars to donuts you did to. The job of an adult is to deal with this sort of distraction like an adult.

What would you have said, "hey shut that kid up."

[Zomby Woof]

14. the mother was an idiot

C'mon, sometimes you can just SEE it. Dumb as a rock. Had that vacuum look behind her eyes. The kid was randomly yelling, because he would stop, and 5 minutes later, start again. You could hear him THROUGHOUT THE HUGE STORE.

Fertilize the imagination, indeed. We all know what makes the best fertilizer: bullshit. Dollars to donuts she plops the kid down in front of the TV when she gets home. If that shopping cart is the height of that kid's mental stimulation, then he will grow up a mental barren wasteland like his moo.

[BigMcLargehuge]

20. Hey, cmon, what's with the judgmental routine ZombyWoof?

I know you're better than this...

You don't know what the mother's or the kid's situation was. Maybe she did plunk him down in front of the TV when she got home. Maybe that's the only option she has, or you're right, maybe she's a shitty mom, or maybe she's exhausted, sick, bored, lonely (think that can't happen with kids around? wrong). Maybe the kid doesn't get enough attention because he lives in a shithole, or in an impersonal subdevelopment.

My point is, you don't know. How would you have felt dressing her down about her parenting skills and hearing as a reply "we just lost my husband in Iraq" or "I just got fired and I don't know how we're going to eat next month."

In my experience as a both an early learning center employee and a parent making the home vibe work, especially with little kids, is hard as hell. No one teaches us how to parent and no one explains how hard it is up front so like the woman in the store, we head into it with little more some conjecture laden reference books to get us by.

The point is, you don't know.

[Zomby Woof]

31. I am a misanthrope!

Ask Sweet Zombie Jesus. He accused me of selling out last night, and I had to atone! :D

[BigMcLargehuge]

34. and you know what happened at the end of Molier's play...

He repented because he'd aliented everyone who loved and respected him.

:)

[Zomby Woof]

40. that was a play

This is real life.

The people who love and respect me now, will continue to do so. I return the sentiments. I also give them no reason to change their hearts or minds. A play is a play, with all the accompanying parables. My life is like others's lives - a bit too complicated and layered for some posters on a board to grasp from reading a few rants here and there.

Amazing how people on DU think they know someone based on a few random rants in a forum. This is far from the first time I have been on the receiving end of this phenomenom, and I have seen it happen to others. :eyes:

[BigMcLargehuge]

44. whoa whoa whoa there ZW

I was just making a fun reference in the spirit of Abe Simspon. I wasn't making a personal attack. If it read that way I appologize and I'll work harder on my pithy responses in the future to avoid misunderstandings.

The Misanthrope is one of my favorite plays is all...

[geebensis]

26. Move to Florida

We have scads of "adult" and "senior" condos where like-minded folks can live together blissfully free of annoying children. Granted, you might see, or even (gasp!) hear a child when you venture out in public, but you can take comfort in the fact that you can scurry back to your enclave and surround yourself with codgers who will join you in tut-tutting the verminous slack-jaws who insult you personally by breeding.

Or maybe you could just lighten up and realize when you live amongst humans, kids are part of the deal.

mm

[BigMcLargehuge]

28. ZombyWoof, is this you?

just kidding

[tjdee]

29. BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Zomby Woof]

32. LOL!!!

No, only because:

1. I don't watch "Matlock"
2. I have my own teeth. :D

[FlaGranny]

35. Hey, now! We don't do those things.

We all have our own grandchildren who visit regularly. When I see a kid screaming in a store, I usually just smile knowingly. Kids just love to carry on the minute you get them in public. Even the usually good kids will do it occasionally. They're smart enough to know they can get your goat in the store. There are two options about the store and kids. Either leave them home or ignore their bad behavior. They'll outgrow their bad behavior faster if you chose the second option because they do learn that it doesn't get them what they want.

My youngest loved trucks. When I took him to the store, he got lots and lots of trucks, because he couldn't pronounce the word "truck." He used the "F" sound instead of the "tr" sound, "I wanta _uck." When I took him with me, we made an absolute B-line to the trucks. Yes, he was too little to know what he was saying. Looking back on it, I'm glad I wasn't arrested for child abuse.

[geebensis]

41. I'd hate to make the child haters pop a blood vessel, but...

We could start telling cute kid stories.

My middle boy at age 2 kept talking about "bonkeys". We had no idea what he was going on about, but we knew he was trying get some point across. We kept asking him about it, and he got more and more frustrated with us. "What does a bonkey look like?" we'd ask.

"You know, a BONKEY! A BONKEY!" He honestly thought we were either teasing him or incredibly stupid.

This went on for a week before we were in a grocery store and there was a magazine cover for the movie Shrek. "See see see!" he said, pointing at the donkey character, "a BONKEY!"

mm

ps And yes, Florida is NOT filled with tight-assed old farts who hate children. In fact, most of the old farts go gaga over my little angels.

[FlaGranny]

46. That is a cute story.

:-) I can empathize. My oldest grandson had a speech problem and I couldn't tell what he was talking about until he was about 5. His parents had to translate for me.

[tjdee]

13. That screaming kid might invent something to save your life.

Or he might break into your house and steal your things.

As a society, we *all* have a vested interest in helping children lead reasonably happy and secure lives. If a stupid cart lets them do that, fine. At least it was in a grocery store and not a 4 star restaurant.

That said, my kid is NEVER screaming like a brat anywhere. She is courteous and well behaved--because I work at it. I am *very* sensitive about not being that sort of parent, even more so because I am a minority single mother and I know what people think about me from the get go. I think many surburban parents in particular, let their kids scream their heads off, run around unescorted, etc. and give all of us a bad name. When I see parents like that, I'm like...get it together, yo!

[Zomby Woof]

15. He will be neither

He will grow up and sling burgers at Carl's Jr. And since I don't east fast food, I will have no further contact with him. He is neither smart enough to invent anything, nor even to pick a lock or break into anything, lol.

Some kids are already a waste of protoplasm early on. Avoid the xmas rush and shop early.

[tjdee]

17. Comeon, LOL.

That kid was all of what, 4 or 5?

Already you can see the fry cook gleam in his eye?

But, I will admit that some children (and consequently, some adults) are little shits. I mean, look at George W. Bush.

[Zomby Woof]

18. truly

Ever see a pic of Chimpy as a kid? Same smirk! Same cluelessness!

See? we do have common ground on this issue. :-)

[Boudicea]

19. Dirty, stupid people that called me rude

I had a similar experience. The kids (several) were all dirty and snot-encrusted, the dad was covered in grease/oil, the mom was pregnant (again) and they and their stupid kiddie carts were taking up the whole big aisle. I squeezed by and was chased down by the father who was screaming at me "you're just rude!" oy vey

[KCDem]

21. my initial reaction to your post

is "go to hell, ZW, you obviously don't have children".

Of course, I have no idea how old this "brat" was. If the kid was over the age of, say, 4, then the mother was likely being too permissive, whatever.

But to believe that a mom has magical control over an 18-month old is a completely different story. I have walked through the grocery store with my 18-month-old UPSIDE-DOWN, since she wouldn't allow herself to be carried any other way, and she wouldn't sit in the cart. You do what you have to. You say that too many parents think their kids are in charge... well, between the ages of 1 and 3, unless you either leave the kid at home or strap him down and let him scream the whole time you're at the store, that kid IS in charge for awhile and you have to do what you have to do.

I'm a kiddie-cart lover. Even my new liquor store has them; how great is that?! Only problem there is the kids don't like that I get to taste the samples and they don't. :evilgrin:

[Zomby Woof]

36. kids have no business in a liquor store, period

THAT is part of why I ranted, because society's pendulum went from being too anti-child to too pro-child. Surely, there is a balance, and it doesn't involve kiddie carts in liquor stores.

You can tell me to go to hell all you want. I don't have children, and it is heaven on earth being child-free. As I said in another post, all children are guilty of being shits until proven otherwise. Why should I let my contempt for the species be age-specific? I start loathing them right out of the chute. :D

[KCDem]

38. it's not for the kids, it's for the stores.

They've obviously realized that they'll get more business if they allow kids. Obviously, I'm not going to change your mind that all children aren't shits. FWIW, I don't really like other peoples' kids that much, either. But they say that the best parents are the ones without kids. You guys have all the answers, don't you?

[fob]

22. Okay, Zomby, put down your keyboard, gather some friends

and go outside RIGHT NOW and play TAG! Then I want you to build a fort, or barring the necessary materials, invite your friends for a sleepover and build a blanket fort. Do this twice daily for as long as symptoms of grumpiness persist. I like righteous idignation as much as anyone, but sometimes you gotta take a break and restore your sanity.

The carts are not new, they are not provided to "coddle" kids, they are a marketing gimmick to bring in the parents. My son loves to ride in it, but has just as much fun in the regular cart. Sometimes he's calm and quiet and sometimes he's loud and has fun, often it is combination of both.

My Safeway also has the motorized scooter carts for those that feel they need them. Hopefully you don't run into one of those deals until after your prescribed playtime is complete.

DISCLAIMER: This is intended to be friendly constructive criticsm with a dash of humor, not a Do what I say, holier than thou rant.

Keep your eye on the prize: NO MORE BUSH*!!

[Zomby Woof]

33. you mean well

I know you do. But trust me when I say you don't know me at all.

How I live my life privately - my sense of wonder and spontaneous joy at every day events - I am in more in touch with the kid in me than many of the self-proclaimed child promoters on DU.

I just don't like OTHER kids. My nephew and the two sons of my best friend are fine. They are raised right, and do not annoy me. All other kids suck, however, until proven otherwise.

That doesn't mean I am out of touch with myself or my past. All too wrong, but you did mean well, so I have nothing negative to say to you. :-)

[papau]

42. So the kid told you that you were a crummy old man, meaning that

you had spots on your arm (crummy) and were old - and then the kid most likely asked when you were going to get young again -
then the kid notes that the hair that should be on you head has fallen into your nose -

were you having a bad day?

Have some tea -

Hugs and high fives!

:-)

[geniph]

124. To those of you who apparently think Zomby is elderly

(or appears to be), let me point out the young whippersnapper is still in his 30s, and looks it! And he's a bit of a big kid himself.

[Zomby Woof]

127. how much younger do I look....

...after you have downed a couple of Mike's Hard Lemonades? :D

[hunter]

23. Fewer Brain Injuries are a Good Thing!!!

Some kid who falls off a regular shopping cart and lands on his head could grow up to be The President.

Maybe that's what happened to George W. Bush. Although personally I think he and his ma simply drank too much.

[BigMcLargehuge]

25. SNARF!!!!!

man, noodle soup just came out of my nose...

I need a tissue.

[kimchi]

27. Not to sound like I'm conservative or anything,

but kids are pretty much set by about 5 or 6. If they are bad at that age it is very hard to change them. No, we don't know the situation at home, BUT, when you decide to have a child you take responsibility for them until they are out of the house. My daughter is 10 months old and recently started screaming everytime I put her down for a nap. I let her cry for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20. Now I just let her cry-and the time it takes her to fall asleep is less and less. Today she cried for 2 minutes and fell asleep.

I'm sorry, but at that age kids should know how to behave in a grocery store, and yes, I blame the parents. The lady could have handled this differently for the comfort of the rest of the patrons. My mom would take me into the bathroom and beat my ass where noone could see, or take me to the car and give me a drink and make me sit until I was calm. But she didn't let me act like an ass in public. I agree that parents should start acting like they are in charge.

[geebensis]

30. Sometimes kids lose it

Even after age 5.

Consider this:

The anti-child rant above was so over the top, do you think it might be possible that

* The original poster "misunderestimated" the age of the child?
* The original poster exaggerated a wee bit concerning the duration and volume of the kid's fit?

Na, I doubt it. Someone who refers to children as "protoplasm" wouldn't ever embellish a story, right?

mm

[Zomby Woof]

96. no, it was very real

I have been shopping in stores for over 30 years, and this was LOUD and SUSTAINED. There was a reason that lady laughed in agreement with me.

As for the protoplasm comment, so what? We are all more or less protoplasm. It is not insulting, it is biology, albeit presented in a satirical way as to make the more oversensitive among us uncomfortable. :-)

I succeeded.

[BigMcLargehuge]

98. yet you jumped on me for the misanthrope reference...?

ZOMBYWOOF, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME!!!

[Zomby Woof]

105. I get to have it both ways

DU vets know the rules of my misanthropy. :-)

[Nay]

130. Amen, Kimchi and ZW.

I like kids and have a 20-year-old son who is a polite person. One of the reasons he is not a little shithead is that when he was young, I DID NOT ALLOW him to act like a brat in public. Not under any circumstances. Not ever. When he became two, he decided to really push it. One day in the grocery store, he actually threw himself on the floor in a tantrum. His dad and I jerked him up off the floor, took him home immediately and put him in bed for the night, even though it was only early afternoon. And for several trips to the store after that, I went by myself. Right before I went to the store, I told him I was going to the store but he would not be allowed to go, because he could not behave as I expected him to. And Dad, the babysitter, did his best to make staying at home boring as hell while Mom was having a gay old time at the store.

After being left out of the fun a few times, we tried again to take him to the store. He behaved like an angel.

the problem with parents today is that they are not willing to inconvenience themselves in any manner at all in order to teach their kids what they need to know. They knuckle under early, and pave they way for some truly nasty teenage years.

So, ZW, you aren't being unreasonable. You are justifiably angry at lazy ass parents who are too self-absorbed to do the job they need to do. Period.

[Zomby Woof]

133. thanks Nay

You understood. I am not out to persecute the parents of DU, or wish ill upon all children, as some would attest in here.

[Blue_Chill]

37. Many shoppers have kids

They will go where their kids are happiest and out of their way. This is nothing more then marketing.

[monkeyboy]

39. What's wrong with this country

ZW is right: people are overindulgent of their kids. Just like their dogs. My kid can scream at the top of his lungs, my dog can growl menacingly, and if you don't like it, well, there must be something wrong with you. The problem is, we have spoiled brats raising spoiled brats. My children were raised with a stern hand, no bullshit was tolerated (and I don't mean I smacked them around. I can count the total number of times I've spanked my kids on both hands, with fingers left over), and as a result, my children are healthy, normal, and completely lacking in the self important, world-revolves-around-me bullshit that seems to permeate this society. As a matter of fact, I'm constantly having parents come up to me and compliment me on how personable, friendly, and well-behaved my 14 year old son is. Parents are just lazy, and don't give a rat's ass about how their kids annoy others.

[geebensis]

47. This would carry a lot more weight...

If people hadn't been saying the exact same thing about other people's kids since, oh *forever*.

Funniest part is, the parents you're denigrating will write or say the exact same thing about someone else's kids in ten years.

In other news, the earth keeps rotating on its axis.

mm

[MissMillie]

43. Don't be too quick to judge the mom

Sometimes the best thing a parent can do when I child behaves that way is to refrain from acknowledging the behavior. A child needs to know that s/he will not garner attention (even negative attention) by pitching a fit.

And for the most part, I see nothing wrong w/ providing cutesy carts for kids. Not all kids behave the way this particular child did, and if it makes a kid happy to ride around in a fake car, then hey, why not? I love making my kid happy. (I just wish he were more attuned to what might make ME happy once in a while.)

[monkeyboy]

45. Weak

Not aknowledging the behaviour works in some situations, but not in public. What you're doing is trying a little psychology at the expense of others.

[MissMillie]

48. How about altering your own behavior?

If you don't like running into kids at the grocery store, shop in the evening.

[monkeyboy]

50. Because I'm not the one misbehaving

Why should I change my behaviour because someone else is acting like a jackass? See my post above, you're the perfect example of what I'm talking about: The world revolves around me, and if you don't like it, tough. Change your behaviour to suit me.

[MissMillie]

53. It's not about the world revolving around me...

It's about real control. The truth of that matter is there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to make a child behave the way you want them to. If a child is going to pitch a fit, they're going to pitch a fit. You can beat them to a pulp (not something I recommend) but that may not necessarily change their behavior.

Parents of small children need groceries too. I am a single parent, and when I had to go shopping, I had to bring my child. If he pitched a fit, sometimes I would try to distract him. Sometimes I would try to ignore him. You do what you think will work given the situation.

You have no idea if that particular child behaves like that all the time or was just having a bad day. Or if the mom was having a bad day, or if she had been coddling the kid all day and decided she needed to try another tact.

You jumped to a judgement, expecting the world to revolve around your need to shop without the disruption of a noisy kid. You're the pot calling the kettle black.

If you don't want to have to put up with them, shop at night.

[monkeyboy]

59. I was a single parent for a while too

But I never used that as an excuse to let my kids run wild.


<<The truth of that matter is there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to make a child behave the way you want them to. >>

The truth is, you can't control your kid, and I can control mine.


<<You're the pot calling the kettle black.>>

No, I'm the competent parent calling you the incompetent parent.


<<If you don't want to have to put up with them, shop at night.>>

I'll shop whenever I damn well please, and if you can't control your children, you're going to hear about it from me.

[MissMillie]

61. This kid wasn't running wild

he was sitting in a kiddie cart. His only crime was that he made noise. something children are prone to do.

Once again, it's YOUR selfish attitude that expects everyone else to cater to you.

Even good kids get noisy sometimes. If you are unprepared to deal with that, it's YOUR problem.

[geebensis]

65. Are you serious?

"I'll shop whenever I damn well please, and if you can't control your children, you're going to hear about it from me"

You must get your lights punched out pretty often.

mm

[monkeyboy]

77. Funny you should ask

You see, the kind of people who let their kids run wild are also the kinds of people who wouldn't dare punch anybody. But since you're asking, yes, I have been in altercations because I wasn't willing to put up with people's selfish behaviour.

[geebensis]

92. Wow

In all honesty, if you are getting into fistfights with people over their children (or anything you deem "selfish behaviour") you are way out of control.

WAY out of control.

You need to get a grip on yourself before some harried mommy puts you in the hospital or you wind up in jail.

mm

[monkeyboy]

99. Once again, you assume too much

Go back and read my post again...I'll wait...ready?

I never said I got into fights over kids, I said I've been in fights over people's selfish behaviour, i.e. a neighbor who thought he could move a survey stake in order to grab some of my land, someone who followed me through 4 stoplights after I cut him off and then attempted to apologize, eventually spitting on me through an open window, etc. Sometimes, if you have any balls, it comes down to that.

[TXlib]

104. My $0.02

The truth is, you can't control your kid, and I can control mine.

Just as parents' personalities differ, so do children's. I've seen a few kids who were hellacious brats, even though their parents didn't seem to do anything differently from me & KCDem, and our children are generally well-behaved.

I'll shop whenever I damn well please, and if you can't control your children, you're going to hear about it from me.

You're the kind of person who goes to a 1 pm Saturday matinee showing of Finding Nemo, and then complains to the manager about all the kids, aren't you?

Here are some guide rules for avoiding children:

1. Avoid grocery shopping during the day. Do your grocery shopping in the evening.
   
   
2. Take the drive-through window when visiting a fast-food restaurant. If you must eat inside, avoid ones with Playlands.
   
   
3. When eating out, you can expect children at family-style restaurants. They cater to families with children. If you want to eat at Chili's, Applebee's, etc, expect kids. (Side note: This doesn't mean you should tolerate totally outrageous behaviour from others' kids. If the kid at the table next to you is having a screaming tantrum and throwing food, and the parents are not controlling/removing the child, you are well within your rights to ask the manager to do something about it.)
   
   
4. Bar/grill restaurants are less likely to have kids, as are very elegant restaurants.
   
   
5. 6-7 pm showing of movies are the best; young children typically won't be there, as it's too close to bedtime, and the obnoxious teenage crowd won't be out in full force till the 9-11 pm showings.
   
   
6. Avoid Chuck E. Cheese like the plague. I'm guessing that would be your and ZombyWoof's very definition of Hell.
   

Those with kids aren't going to hide from society just to please the child-intolerant. It is incumbent upon such people to avoid high-probability-of-children situations.

Now, there are plenty of situations in which one can reasonably expect no children and have a right to complain if there are. e.g. -- I went to go see Terminator 3 at 11pm. There was a set of parents there with a ~4-ish year old child, who screamed for the first 15 minutes, until the parents finally realised they were probably going to be ambushed and shot in the parking lot if they didn't leave, which is what they did. That was totally inappropriate, and I was about to go complain to the manager when they voluntarily left.

[MissMillie]

107. This is an absolutely rational train of thought

1) One cannot walk into a "honky tonk" and then complain that they don't like country music.

On any given day in any given grocery store there will be a parent w/ a child. Some will, no doubt, be some bad parents, and some nasty children. Fact is, even good children of terrific parents can have a bad day now and then. It happens. Kids have been throwing tantrums in grocery stores since the invention of grocery stores. It's not a new trend, or a cycle. It happens. It will always happen.

2) There are 3 people in the situation: the parent, the child, and the person annoyed by the child. The annoyed person can do absolutely nothing--legally--to control the other two. The only person he can control is him/herself. If that person wants to shop in a quiet child-free environment, then they should shop at night.

[monkeyboy]

108. This post has got to set some sort of DU record

For the longest post, with the most information, from a poster with the least understanding of the other poster's point of view. Where did you get the idea that I needed instruction on how to avoid children? I took my kids to matinees and let them scream right along with the other kids. Same thing for Chuckee Cheese, been there many times. That's what kids do at matinees and C. Cheese, but that behaviour shouldn't be tolerated everywhere, including public places such as supermarkets.


<<Those with kids aren't going to hide from society just to please the child-intolerant.>>

I never said they should, but they should keep them under control, insist that they behave themselves, and consider OTHER PEOPLE'S feelings.


<<There was a set of parents there with a ~4-ish year old child, who screamed for the first 15 minutes, until the parents finally realised they were probably going to be ambushed and shot in the parking lot if they didn't leave, which is what they did. That was totally inappropriate, and I was about to go complain to the manager when they voluntarily left.>>

Gee, this sounds an awful lot like what I've been trying to say throughout this post. Did you even bother to read my other posts, I mean, ALL of them, or are you just jumping into the middle of this thing? As an example of the way I react to rude people, I was in a theater a while back, sitting on the end, and an entire family with about 4 kids kept getting up, time and time again, and scooting in front of me and my son to go to the bathroom, buy cokes, etc. I finally said to the Dad, "Are you peopel here to watch this movie? Because I'm trying to." Problem solved. That's what I mean when I say I don't tolerate other people's rude behaviour. I don't attack people or scream or threaten. But I will say, that if the Dad had told me to go fuck myself, there would have been trouble.

[TXlib]

120. Yes, I read pretty much the whole thread

a poster with the least understanding of the other poster's point of view

Granted, it's kind of hard to express oneself fully over the 'net. But from the posts of yours I read, you seemed to paint yourself in a way that led me to believe you were pretty intolerant of others' kids. Clearly, I wasn't the only one, either.

So, if my impression of you was incorrect, chalk it up to the limited ability of expression online.

[KCDem]

54. agreed 100%

Parents shop in the morning/afternoon because that is the time of day when they will bother the least # of shoppers. Period. So those other shoppers, if they don't want to be insulted/annoyed/disturbed by little people, should change their own shopping habits.

I, as an observant parent, will NOT take my kids to the grocery store in the evenings or on weekends. And, also, there's nothing I appreciate more than to have a chance to go shopping ALONE. I don't want to take my kids, but I do out of necessity.

[monkeyboy]

55. I never had to do worry about that

I took my kids with me wherever I went, because of the simple fact that they behaved themselves.

[geebensis]

49. Expense?

Exactly what would this cost you?

Is there a dollar figure that can be attached to making a grocery run without being reminded that there are other, sometimes younger people in the world?

mm

[monkeyboy]

51. Are we on the same planet?

What are you talking about? Expense in the figurative sense, not the literal. By 'at the expanse of others' I was referring to driving people crazy with your brats behaviour, while you mindlessly go about your business instead of taking care of your responsibilities.

[geebensis]

57. Just making a point

That you are unwilling or unable to consider. It is only a "figurative" expense if you let it become one.

If you allow a strange child's public tantrum to drive YOU crazy, well, you might want to do a little soul searching. Children will always throw fits. They always have and they always will. Doesn't matter how well behaved they are most of the time.

You have to be willing to risk witnessing a tantrum if you're going to go out in public. Expecting everyone else to somehow accomodate you by whisking their children out of your sight the first time they make a peep is ludicrous. Worse yet, somehow expecting human nature (and tantrums are part of young human nature) to change, is flatly irrational.

mm

[BigMcLargehuge]

58. Not if you scare the hell out of your kids at every turn apparently...

I've seen far too many "my kids never misbehaved because I was firm and I can count the time I BEAT them on both hands..." turn our maladjusted teenage lunatics. Parenting is give and take. Kids are just learning about the world around them. Whapping them into submission isn't good parenting.

Yeah, yeah, I know this comment is akin to throwing oily rags in a smouldering room...

[monkeyboy]

62. Tsk, tsk, tsk

First of all, I said spank, not beat. There is a world of difference.

Secondly, I never scared my kids at every turn. You assume way too much. But this is part of the problem: too many people assume that there are only 2 extremes: beating the kid into submission, or letting him go hog wild. I posit that it is precisley these 2 extremes that make for bad children who become bad adults. It's all about balance, but that requires effort, imagination, judgement, etc., and that's just way too much work for people, so, laziness shows itself in the form of either screaming beaters, or glassy-eyed ignorers.

[BigMcLargehuge]

70. would you spank a senior citizen...

for the same infraction? I've seen my share of seniors with obvious early senility being pushed around the supermarket in tears. Is their caretaker guilty of being a lousy "mom" too?

So I ask, does that person need a spanking (i.e. beating) too? Why not, they are misbehaving... right? They should KNOW better, shouldn't they?

[monkeyboy]

73. Ooh, I like this one

Great thought there, Mr. BigGiantMcNuggets. No, senior citizens, who are on their way downhill mentally, should not be spanked, since spanking only modifies the behaviour of those that are learning. BTW, before someone accuses me of being a child abuser, I only spanked my kids in the most extreme circumstances, i.e. the time my kid ran out in front of a car. I would much rather risk hurting my child's inner child via spanking than have to attend his funeral.

[monkeyboy]

71. Well, lemme see here

<<It is only a "figurative" expense if you let it become one.>>

It is only a literal expense if you mention money. Oh, you did.


<<Children will always throw fits>>

A blanket statement to be sure, but OK, for the sake of argument... I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it seems I can't go anywhere without having to put up with children misbehaving. It's a trend, if you will, that reflects the average parent's inability to control their children.

<< Expecting everyone else to somehow accomodate you by whisking their children out of your sight the first time they make a peep is ludicrous.>>

It certainly is ludicrous, but it's your hypothetical, not mine. I never said a child should be whisked anywhere at the first peep, but if my kids threw a fit in a public place, and I couldn't get them to stop, they were certainly whisked into the car, taken home, given the approprtiate punishment (time out, no tv, possibly a spanking, whatever) and the next time they attempted to throw a fit, all I had to do was look at them and remind them of the last incident, and they realised, not through fear, as one poster put it, but ratheer they knew that their actions were going to accomplish nothing. Game, set, match.

[MissMillie]

72. I'll tell you what....

I'll whisk my kid out if you'll be willing to finish shopping for the foods I need and deliver them to my house.

I mean, really, I just went there for the fun of it... I didn't actually expect to accomplish anything like buying food.

[geebensis]

76. No

"It's a trend, if you will, that reflects the average parent's inability to control their children."

Wrong.

It's a trend that reflects YOUR diminishing ability to tolerate children.

Which do you think is more likely -- that human nature has noticeably changed in the past ten years, or that YOU have changed?

Sheesh.

mm

[monkeyboy]

84. There's a little thing called sociology

And if you ever bother to study it, you'll come to find that societies go through cycles. We in this society are going through a cycle right now, much like the cat worshipping Egytians, or the Japanes whose men dressed like women, etc., etc. wherein we are over indulging our children, and spending more on our pets than we do on our poor. There will be consequences for this. They will not be good. Then things will change.

Sheesh right back at ya.

[geebensis]

60. Another thought

Before you start calling my kids "brats" you might want to take a good hard look at yourself. Temper tantrums are not reserved for the toddler set, and you're well on the way to a full blown, "Waaaaah everyone else is a bad parent!" fit.

Don't make me put you in time out.

mm

[MissMillie]

63. this guy sees 30 seconds...

of this kid's life and the parent's response, and rushes to judgment. The kid may have never done it before, and may never do it again, but monkeyboy is sure that the parent is incompetent and that he "knows" better.

Unreal

[monkeyboy]

64. And tsk, tsk, tsk to you too

You assume that anyone who vehemently disagrees with you is on the verge of a temper tantrum? Sounds like someone missed their nap.

[geebensis]

67. Ok then

You have made it clear that anybody who disagrees with you is an incompetant parent. Guess that makes you the level headed, rational one, huh?

mm

[monkeyboy]

74. You funny!

No, no, no. I never said that. I said that anybody who thinks it's OK to let their kids run wild and scream and cry and throw a fit without trying to control them, all the while making excuses about how "I'm a little defensless single parent" is a bad parent.

[MissMillie]

79. Nice how you made up that excuse.....

Because no one here used it. I said I brought my child w/ me because I was a single parent. The way I choose to deal w/ my child is a different matter.

What I have said is:


<i>It's about real control. The truth of that matter is there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to make a child behave the way you want them to. If a child is going to pitch a fit, they're going to pitch a fit. You can beat them to a pulp (not something I recommend) but that may not necessarily change their behavior.</i><p>

and

<i>You have no idea if that particular child behaves like that all the time or was just having a bad day. Or if the mom was having a bad day, or if she had been coddling the kid all day and decided she needed to try another tact.</i>

But you know what... I can't control your behavior either. If you insist on being argumentative, and unwilling to take a look at life from someone else's point of view, maybe the best thing we all can do is ignore you. Methinks you enjoy this attention too much.

[monkeyboy]

88. Hee hee

<<If you insist on being argumentative>>

You mean if I insist on not seeing things your way.

<<maybe the best thing we all can do is ignore you>>

Just try it. Go ahead, stop responding. ;-)

<<Methinks you enjoy this attention too much.>>

As opposed to you, who are here for strictly altruistic reasons.

[JVS]

121. Does that mean...

That if I tell a joke at your expense that I haven't wronged you?

Expense is not always monetary and by selecting the monetary type, which was clearly not the intent of the original poster, you are just building a straw man.

[grasswire]

52. interesting juxtaposition of thoughts

"I love making my kid happy. (I just wish he were more attuned to what might make ME happy once in a while.)"

I wonder how the child learns to make the parent happy? By being continually indulged? Only if the child makes the leap from self-centeredness and a sense of entitlement to the understanding of personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.

Miss Millie, I don't think the child learns that on his own. I think he/she has to be instructed. Otherwise the awareness you seek may not come until after you are in your grave! "Poor ma. She did everything for me. I never realized how much until it was too late."

[MissMillie]

56. What did I say to make you think

that I continually indulge my child?

[KCDem]

66. did ZW ever mention how old this kid was?

I never saw an age mentioned, and I've read this whole thread. I'd even asked the question earlier, which was ignored.

I think the age would make a huge difference. 4 years and older should, on average, understand the law of consequences. Under 3 does not. Anyone who says that his 2 year old listens and respects his authority all the time?... well, I think there's something going on at that house that might need to be investigated.

You _can't_ control a 2-year-old. All you can do is ride it out. Miss Millie, I believe, mentioned that sometimes, ignoring a tantrum is the best way to go. She is 100% correct. Rules need to be the same out as they are at home, otherwise the kid takes longer to "get" it.

[Zomby Woof]

68. my guess was 3 or 4

Yes you can control a kid that age, provided he or she is free of developmental disabilities. As someone who was rather unruly at that age, I also knew the consequences of acting out.

I didn't "ignore" you, I just didn't think it relevant to my rant. But since you insisted on knowing, I am happy to provide you with my estimate.

I beg others to keep this thread free of flames. It seems to be getting as unruly as that kid in the store yesterday. :-)

[KCDem]

78. no kidding about that

(this thread getting unruly). Yikes!

I _did_ think the kid's age was relevant, as there's a huge difference between a 2-y-old and a 4-y-old. My kids are 20 months and almost 4, and I hold them up to vastly different expectations in terms of public performance. So thanks for obliging me, a kid that old shouldn't be ruling his/her parent.

[masslib]

97. Has there ever been a thread in DU history that was started

with an anti-child rant that has not denigrated into a flame war?

You've been here long enough to know that's how they all end.

[Zomby Woof]

100. hehe

Of course they do, but I have stayed above the fray and not flamed, so I have the luxury of tsk-tsking even if I can predict the outcome. Just one of the ways I like to contribute to DU! ;-)

[SOteric]

116. Truly...

one may as well wander into GD and shout, "I'm thinking of voting for Nader."




I note most of the most 'outraged' seem to be newbies. Quite possibly they simply haven't been here long enough to have developed an understanding of the personalities, they many dynamics of dialogue, the subtle differences that make DU a multi-faceted jewel.

Hang in there, ZeeDub. We still love you. Well, ...I do. Matcom's just using your for your incredibly hunky bod. ;-)

[masslib]

122. I have to tell you that when I saw the first wave of anti-child

threads way back when, I was shocked so I'm not surprised by the reaction of newer members, there hasn't been this type of thread in a while.

I don't think it has to do with personalities, it has to do with the topic.

Before coming here, I never heard of people who actually hated children as a group and the last place I expected to find them was on a progressive discussion board.

So I can understand why people are reacting as they are.

But ZW knew this when he/she started the thread.

[DemExpat]

126. I also have never seen this anywhere else but here......

DU is an eye-opener in many, many ways!

DemEx

[papau]

118. That was my guess also - and 3 year olds can not be controlled

It is a grin and bear it world!

And I still say it went down something like this - the kid told you that you were a crummy old man, meaning that you had spots on your arm (crummy) and were old - and then the kid most likely asked when you were going to get young again - then the kid notes that the hair that should be on you head has fallen into your nose - and you realize that you're having a bad day - and its get annoyed with kid time!

Now Have some tea ...


Great Thread!

:-)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

69. I love the cars!

They keep my kid happy and much safer than the seats in the old-style cart. I can't tell you how many times I've stopped some kid from cracking his/her head open by standing up in the seat of the cart. It's tough keeping an eye on your bored toddler when you're trying to do the grocery shopping after a hard day at work. These carts are a blessing.

The car-carts at my local grocery stores aren't hard to push. Maybe there are others that are poorly designed. All great ideas require alterations to perfect them.

I've also seen kiddie-sized carts for slightly older kids who've outgrown the "car" phase and want to be "big helpers". I find it refreshing that someone in the corporate world is thinking about keeping consumers' kids happy without charging $10.99 a ride.

[SweetZombieJesus]

75. Christ, the child worshippers are out in force on this thread

You know, I love kids, particularly the ones I'm related to, but there are many times throughout my day where I see kids run their fucking parents lives from top to bottom.

For example: One day at work, a couple and their probably four year old came into my convenience store, and proceeded to stand at the counter for twenty minutes while Junior went from aisle to aisle and picked out food for himself (his parents had already picked out their items). This kid put at least 20 bucks worth of stuff on the counter, as opposed to the five bucks the parents spent on themselves combined. Now THAT is bad parenting, and that fucking kid will grow up to be a little demon.

When I was a kid, if I started howling in a public place, I was taken out to the car, spanked, and made to sit in the car until Mom was done shopping. I grew up to be a relatively law abiding guy with an excellent work ethic, and no serious mental problems.

Children do NOT always deserve the benefit of the doubt, nor do their parents.

[monkeyboy]

80. But you're WRONG

I believe the children are our future. They must be indulged, or their little feelings will be hurt. I think Dennis Leery said it best when he said "I'm pretty sure I can take my inner child in a fistfight".

[MissMillie]

81. Well, at least you got a 20 minute show

The example you give certainly qualifies as kids controlling parents.

Fit or no fit, when I buy the groceries, I buy the groceries. I may ask my son what kind of juice he wants, but he doesn't get to choose rootbeer over juice.

[Alenne]

82. You don't know why they let him do that

When my kids do something good like win an award or get a good grade on a test I let them go to the store and get whatever they want. I also do it on their birthdays or if I want to treat them to something special. It doesn't mean they are out of control. It doesn't mean I am a bad parent.

[MissMillie]

85. true enough

Something I hadn't even considered. I'll be big enough to admit I rushed to a judgment on that one.

Be careful Alenne... indulging your child like that means you're a bad parent.</sarcasm>

[SweetZombieJesus]

86. Your post is EXACTLY what's wrong with a lot of people on this forum

I relate a personal antecdote, and you take it as an attack on your parenting skills. Not everything is about you, and just because you do something sort of similar, doesn't excuse this bullshit from these parents.

At no point did they say to the kid "Pick out X amount of items". He just KEPT loading up with stuff, as his fat, glassy eyed parents stood there like zombies. It was insane how much JUNK FOOD this child bought for himself, with no questions whatsoever from his parents. This kid was four. What can a four year old do that's worthy of that kind of "reward"?

[Alenne]

90. and you don't know what they said before he got there

You just know what you want it to be. Maybe it was his birthday. The fact is you don't know but you have branded these parents as bad and their child as spoiled. And unless you asked you don't even know if he was 4. That is just your guess. You saw some parents and a child and made up a story in your head about what you wanted the situation to be.

[SweetZombieJesus]

91. Oh bullshit

I've done my job long enough to know a spoiled brat when I see one, and this kid was spoiled god damn rotten. NO kid should get twenty bucks worth of junk food at a fucking convenience store when his parents spent two and a half bucks each on themselves. Twenty bucks worth of junk food = BAD PARENTING, period.

Your obsessive defensiveness on this subject is pretty sad.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SweetZombieJesus]

95. Ah, ad hominem "you're a child" attacks

Way to show how mature you are!

[Blue_Chill]

115. hmm

Again asking other not to hurl insults? ..sigh...

As for your 'bad parenting' comments. How many kids do you have? Because for you to think it's no buggy to hurl that accusation around is funny. Parents are constantly being judged by people in society that think they know better, many of them get annoyed when they even see those words.

[geebensis]

83. Not an option

"When I was a kid, if I started howling in a public place, I was taken out to the car, spanked, and made to sit in the car until Mom was done shopping."

How long would a young kid sit in a car in a parking lot these days before someone called the cops or DCF? Five minutes?

Also, do you really think it's a good idea to put a cranky three year old alone in a car in a busy parking lot? Hint: three year olds know how to open car doors, but they're a little fuzzy on the whole "watch out for cars" thing.

Even if you could be sure the kid would stay in the car and that no one would call the cops, the fact is that where I live, 20 minutes in a car can kill a child.

Guess you're stuck listening to my kid in the store. And if that ruins your whole day you're WAY to high strung.

mm

[Rabrrrrrr]

112. I think it's a pretty obvious far gone conclusion

that wouldn't be safe any more. I used to stay in the car a lot when my parents shopped, but I'd never let a kid do that now.

But I think you found one small item in his post, that had nothing to do with the subject of it, so that you could hammer home an irrelevancy within the argument while looking like you made some monumental refutation of his point.

Did he say "Kids should be put in cars alone"? No, he said that's what was done with him. There's a big difference between offering an anecdote to make a point, and establishing doctrine.

What was said stands: the whiny, crying, loud, obnoxious kids need to be taken out once or twice so that they will learn that their bad behavior has bad consequences (and I'm not talking hitting, necessarily). People learn appropriate behavior only by LEARNING it, and letting them continue to scream and cry doesn't teach them anything, other than that, apparently, Mom or Dad will let them do antyhing/whatever.

Tell a kid she/he has just lost out on a ride on the machine, or an ice cream cone, or gets three days sans TV, or has to listen to dad explain actualrial tables - that's a kid that won't exhibit the bad behavior very often. It's much easier, in the long run, to train 'em right from the beginning, and show smoe consideration to the rest of the world by training well and raising them to be conscious and conscientious human beings who have learned that consideration for others is a highly important thing.

[MissMillie]

114. Kids don't like to shop

They'd rather be home playing. Removing them from the store may be just what they're looking to achieve w/ their tantrum.

The only person who has to deal w/ the consequences is the parent who didn't get the shopping done.

[Zomby Woof]

94. excellent

I love my nephew and my friend's kids in general, and it is probably due to them having similar attitudes in the raising of children - what is and is not acceptable behavior. They are all well-adjusted kids, the oldest of the lot not quite three years old. Intelligent, aware, and imaginative. Do they act up? Yes, of course. Are they demon spawn from hell allowed to SCREAM for no good reason in public? Not for long.

Like my best friend says about his older son - let the kid sing his own praises when he is older. They love their children immensley, and they show it by raising them responsibly, rather than over-indulgently.

[Rabrrrrrr]

109. I'm glad my parents didn't tolerate any BS from me, either

It was pretty darn few and far between that I acted up in public, because Mom was pretty good at either hauling me out, or reducing priveleges and STICKING BY THEM.

By golly, if Mom said "Be quiet, or no TV", then by God, there was no TV. There was no "bargaining" or backpedaling. If mom sent me to my room, I stayed in because she made sure of it. If Mom had promised me ice cream after a store visit, and I acted up, then guess what - there wasn't any ice cream, no matter how much Mom might have wished she could have some (and she wasn't the abusive type to go get ice cream for her and eat in front of me).

Discipline is, it seems, becoming a lost art. Doesn't mean you have to be a bastard - but kids need to know there are penalties for their inappropriate behavior, both socially AND darting in front of cars.

Other youth leaders are often impressed at the level of decent behavior exhibited by the kids in my youth group - it's cuz I don't accept crap behavior, and they know it. They know that in the youth room, they can be loud and obnoxious and teenaged and spray cheetoes from their mouths if they want, but that they'll respect each other and me, and also that in public, they are required to follow a more restrictive standard because it makes society a lot better. They get their work done, they have a heck of a lot of fun, things go smoothly, and no complaints, and it seems generally they respect me a lot more because I make the boundaries clear, and I stick with 'em, AND I let them be teenagers at "home" (in the youth room, weekend evets, etc.).

Kids will act up - it is, indeed, what kids do. But that doesn't mean we have to accept it, and it ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean that OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO SUCK IT IN AND TOLERATE IT. It's just plain good community - don't put your crap on other people. If I'm at church, or a theater, or a restaurant, or a store, and a kid starts whining and/or balling, I'm perfectly fine to accept that, hey, they're kids, but I'm not willing to accept a parent who expects ME and THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE AREA to suffer from it for more than about 30 seconds. Quiet the kid up, or take him/her outside. I don't to want to listen to people's boom cars, I don't want to listen to other people's conversations on cell phones, I don't want to listen to screaming kids in public, I don't want to listen to people talking during movies. No one should have to.

Like Mom showed me, my whiny craying behavior wasn't bad in and of itself, the problem was IT WAS ANNOYING EVERYONE AROUND ME. And that's not fair.

[Coffee Coyote]

111. you're brrrrrrrilliant!

Zomby said so. :-)

[Rabrrrrrr]

113. Thanks Zomby Coffee!

I wish I could see one of the carts you were talking about - haven't seen anything like that, I don't think.

And if you've never encountered the stores with the little kiddie sized grocery carts - thank your maker for that. Went to one once or twice, and was hit so many times from the little tykes - who were having great hilarious fun, I'll add - I'll never go back.

[masslib]

87. I know it's tough to give either the child or the mom the

benefit of the doubt but did you ever consider whether the child might have been autistic or had mental or behavioral problems?

Should a child with problems be kept at home because he might cause a disturbance? Or could the mother hope that she can take her child out in public and count on the tolerance and compassion of strangers?

Just asking.

[MissMillie]

89. Such questions

may actually make people stop and think,... and it's just too easy to rush to judgment.



(Edit: spelling)

[deek]

101. perhaps the child

has special needs, ie autisim, ADHD, or any one/more of a plethora of conditions. I know many moms who are given/spoken to about their child's behavior and judged as a bad parent, when in fact their child has a bonefide medical/behavioral condition.

[Cush]

106. you mean these?

http://www.26thasg.heidelberg.army.mil/newspaperweb/Archive/2003/April17/Feature2.htm

[Coffee Coyote]

110. yes

As we can see, that kid is doing a fine job of staying in the cart while moo and duh buy junk food.

[Interrobang]

135. Christ, I'm glad the local grocery stores don't have those!

It's bad enough those people bring their "SUV strollers" (you know the kind, Jeep or Perego branded, large enough to swallow a Nash Metropolitan without a glass of water) on the city busses -- can you say "major fucking safety hazard"? I knew you could! My mom had a heavy-duty stroller for me (I have a physical disability and walked late), but you'd better believe that damned thing *folded* and turned into something not much bigger than an EZ-Up in its case. Now they just blithely hoist those things onto the bus, ignoring the "please fold strollers" signs (because heaven knows, those things don't fold), and they clog up the whole damned aisle. Nine times out of ten, they park right in the middle of the bus, too. Woe betide you, poor hapless trav'ler, should you perchance be stuck on a bus with two or three of the goddam things. You can barely move, and when I'm lugging my crippled ass home with a load of groceries, a few of these anti-social asses with their precious artifact children swaddled in 100 lbs of metal, plastic, and rubber don't exactly make me feel well-adjusted.

Granted, I don't have kids, but my mom (and lots of other moms) made do with "umbrella" strollers; why do today's parents, in the main, feel that they have to push Artifact Child around in a ponderous pram with 900 lbs. of extraneous shit as well? (Don't you remember your mom saying, "No, you can't bring your toy to the mall." These moms say, "Sure, you can bring the toy! Heck, bring the whole toybox!")

I hold people's parenting to a fairly low standard, myself. If I can look at a parent and honestly say to myself, "I could do a better job than that!" then I *know* they're falling down on the job, because I would be a lousy parent, and I know it.

[buddhamama]

117. i'm a Mom

and i feel embarrassed for saying this but, my son has never thrown a fit any time anywhere in his life. i guess i'm lucky. (i've never hit my son either,btw)

i get your point, however i feel it would be wrong of me to comment on a situation that i know nothing about. i don't know why the child was yowling,what the mother may have done or did not do to stop the child.

what would you have liked her to do? what if she had to get the shopping done and couldn't just leave the store?

as far as the cart thingy goes, they're obnoxious,imho.

[blondeatlast]

123. Welcome to AZ, ZW (and SWJ if he's around)!

Avoid Basha's like the plague, guy, they offer free child care!

The kid is why the hubby does the grocery shopping in my house; VJ and I have storytime.

[Zomby Woof]

125. thanks blondeatlast!

:hi: No Basha's near me, luckily. :D

[geniph]

129. The most civilized solution

to my way of thinking, is what a few stores do: they have a supervised childcare area with some kid toys and an adult minder where parents pay a buck or two to let their young kids play while they shop. Most of them are quite careful to get identification from the parent and make sure the right kid goes with the right adult. It's a lot less boring for the kids, it's a lot less stressful for the parents, and it's a lot less annoying for those of us who really do have to shop during toddler hours and have low tolerance for toddlers.

My mother's solution - and she was a single parent of six young children - was totally inflexible. If we acted up in public, we left wherever we were, right now, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and went to the car. This was not a good thing, because we would then sit in the car with our pissed-off mother until we could behave like human beings again, at which time we went back, recollected the cart or whatever, and resumed what we were doing. When we got home, there was usually hell to pay. Now, I don't advocate my mother's methods in most things, because my mother was extremely physically abusive, but you also always knew where the limits were. From the time I was able to walk and talk, I knew I was not to run where I might trip or run into others, I was not to use an "outside" voice indoors (including retail establishments), and there were places where I either sat quietly and waited, or my ass was grass. I don't think those limits were at all abusive or unreasonable.

Oh, and when I got left in the car, it was with the doors locked, seatbelt fastened, windows cracked, and a book.

But Zomby, darlin', I don't know how you avoided seeing those carts when you were up here - I'm seeing them in all kinds of stores now. I prefer 'em to the little mini-carts - those things are a traffic hazard.

[Zomby Woof]

132. could be because I shopped at 2AM

I just never did, even in the daytime. Lucky me, I guess. :-)

[Skittles]

131. I AGREE WITH YOU ZOMBIE

I see kids doing things I NEVER got away with when I was a kid. People care more about material possessions than raising their chilren. It's hard to go anywhere anymore without seeing the results. I feel bad for the children, especially when the parents are defending their atrocious behavior.

[ScreamingMeemie]

134. I have used these a couple of times, but they are so ungainly and hard

to steer. Luckily son is getting a bit big for them. Stay away when I have one, I've been known to knock things over. You always have to back those suckers up to turn.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

136. we have those at our Hannaford

One time late at night I'd love to take one and ride it around the store. It looks like fun! ;)

[Zomby Woof]

137. one thing I knew for sure...

You could not resist a thread about me GOING TO THE STORE. :D

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

138. You're right!

I gave into the temptation! THAT DAMN STORE! Gets me every time. :D

[Zomby Woof]

139. the funny thing is...

I went without talking to you first! :D