I think Ted Rall has lost it

[sasquatch]

Hey Ted, the troops have no opinion on what they do, they just do what they're told.

[PDittie]

1. He is angry. Angrier than me.

And I didn't think that was possible.

I'm against the war; I support the troops; I'm not stupid and I'm not crazy.

Ted, take a break for a few weeks. Go on vacation. Stay away from the news.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

2. Is that right?

Hey Ted, the troops have no opinion on what they do, they just do what they're told.

Oh well, better let those prison guards go...

[sasquatch]

12. Yes and no on the prison guards

Should they get punished? Yes. Should they take the whole blunt force of the punishment? No. Whomever gave the order should get the book thrown at them period.

[Delano]

3. Yep. Turrning into a major a-hole lately.

It's like the Tillman flap inflamed him to want to piss even MORE people off.

Maybe he thinks it's cool to be part of the 3% of the population that says "Fvck the Troops". Sad, really...


"I miss my wife, but I support her murderer." is a lousy analogy.

A better one would be:

"I miss my wife, but I still support gun ownership rights"

The troops are not Bush, or the war. MANY of them were and are against the Iraq war. I know a few myself. If I was a soldier, I'd have gone for conscientious objector status. I would NOT have participated. But in doing so you face disciplinary action and forfeiture of you GI bill money, etc. (if I understand it correctly), so I think Rall is being a bit haughty in expecting soldiers to give up their futures to make a statement against Bush's war.

If he knew anything, he would know that the minute you step into that boot camp, you are G.I. government issue, property of the US government. Your rights are no longer protectted under the constitution, but under the UCMJ, which gives you much less freedom.

To hell with Rall, I'm over him, and I was as much against this atrocity as anyone.

[Skinner]

4. I like Ted Rall.

But I think his analogies are wrong in this case.

If you want to compare the war to a sushi restaurant, then the "chef" would be George W. Bush, and the "troops" would be the wait staff who bring it to you.

"This sushi sucks, but the wait staff is not to blame. The chef is."

If you want to compare the war to a butt-ugly building, then the "architect" would be George W. Bush, and the "troops" would be the construction workers who build it.

"This building is butt-ugly, but the construction workers are not to blame. The architect is."

(Sorry, I can't really come up with a comparable analogy for the "murderer" part.)

It would be great if troops all refused to go to war, but that is really unrealistic. Many of them are just trying to make a living, like waiters and construction workers.

[Champ]

8. That was a great reply

And I'm not sucking up or anything. :D I'm serious.

[indigobusiness]

10. He is making a point about ambiguities and oversimplifications,

he isn't dissing the troops. He is dissing the dialog about the war...and all the hypocrisies therein.

And Ted Rall CAN draw. Cartoons are called that for a reason.



edited for typos

[jmowreader]

22. One for the murderer

"I miss my wife, but the gun manufacturer is not to blame. The murderer is."

This because every once in a while, someone tries to hold gun companies liable for murders committed by the guns they made.

[JVS]

5. "they just do what they're told"

Where have I heard this before?

I'm undecided on this. On one hand the administration is responsible for starting a war, but it is the troops that are out there waging it. Without the cooperation of the troops there would be no war, but expecting them to risk the grave consequences of insubordination seems to be a bit much.

[mmm]

6. I think it's awesome.

'In matters of conscience the laws of the majoriy
have no place.' People need to start thinking about civil disobedience.

[NightTrain]

7. Son of a bitch can't even draw!

How the hell did he manage to make it as a cartoonist, anyway?

[mitchum]

21. Because he engages in agit-prop...

and one doesn't have to be aesthetically pleasing in order to preach to the converted (that may not be the stated goal, but that's what usually happens with agit-prop) You're right, he can't draw worth a fuck.

[GR]

9. I Don't Support The Policies The Troops Are Executing...

But I don't hold it against the troops, per se, unless they say I have no right to do that or that I am unpatriotic or that I am helping the terrorists or unless they use torture and humiliation to interrogate Iraqis. In that case, I DO hold it against them. They're wrong, in that case.

I think that's what Rall's saying.

[teryang]

11. The "support the troops" conundrum

...came up very early during the war. It's a red herring used to undermine or weaken expression of opposition to the conflict. It's de rigeur for every critic to say, I support the troops!

It's as if you have to give the salute to the military before you're empowered to say anything against the war. It is stupid. It's a form of mass psychology manipulation.

The ironic thing is that the Army in particular has sustained incredible damage as a democratic institution in so many ways as a result of corrupt fascist leadership in the Pentagon and the white house. I have been trying to explain its compromised position for some time out of a sense of respect for it as an institution important to our constitutional form of government. It doesn't suprise me at all that much of the internal opposition to the regime comes from the Army, I had written about it before it became fashionable. But this isn't what the "support the troops" slogan is about, it is really intended as a loyalty check to stifle dissent.

During the Vietnam war, parents with children in Vietnam or the Armed Forces had this reaction to anti-war critics: how can you say that, my son is over there!

It is a form of non-differentiating sloganeering but I respect the right of any one to say it. I don't feel I have to.

"Support the troops, bring them home," is a better slogan.

[JackDragna]

15. Jinx..

..I just posted something similar below. Very good post here. "Support the troops" has just become another in the latest of allegiance tests leftists have to use when discussing issues with Republicans. We can't discuss abortion without blathering on about how it sure is bad all those fetuses die. We can't talk about how the drug war is failing without talking about how it sure is bad all these young kids are getting into the stuff. I am tired of the baseline assumption that we leftists are immoral and have to establish some minimum of moral high ground before our opinions are taken seriously. I refuse to say I "support the troops."

[rucky]

13. Supporting the troops unfortunately gives the Administration a pass

we need people like Rall to show the chickenhawks that they cannot count on us supporting the troops no matter what. they've used up all their forgiveness points.

[JackDragna]

14. There's more to this cartoon than meets the eye.

"Supporting the troops" is used as coded language for supporting many of the war's aims. When one sees a "I Support the Troops" bumper sticker on the back of a car, one can be sure the driver was in favor of the war.

Ultimately, the whole concept of "supporting the troops" is used by the right as a weapon against the left. It's a meaningless statement, for the most part. Nearly all Americans feel sympathy for our soldiers and don't want them getting killed. We want our soldiers to come home and get out of the tinderbox. Saying one "supports the troops" is therefore just as meaningless as saying one needs to support the maker of an ugly building or the preparer of bad sushi.

"Supporting the troops" is a statement made to make the utterer feel good, not to help the troops. We anti-war people should not have to make such useless utterances to defend our patriotism. We're the ones who tried to "support the troops" by not sending them off to war in the first place. When people ask me if I support the troops, I say "Once, I did. Thanks to the president, the day when that mattered is past."

[leftofthedial]

16. Jawohl

Die troopen sind gut Germans, chust followink orders.

[UTUSN]

17. Jon STEWERT Made RALL's Same Point

in confronting Bill KRISTOL: "So, what you're saying is that this guy (Shrub) drove the car into a ditch, but we ought to support him, not anybody else, as THE BEST ONE to get us OUT of the ditch?!"


I realize RALL supported NADIR in 2000, but he stared down O'REILLY a week or two ago, and O'REILLY even looked afraid, and that chalks up a lot of points and forgiveness from me.

[Kickin_Donkey]

18. I think Ted Rall is spot-on ...

He's actually attacking the new politically correct, knee-jerk reaction that you see on DU. Virtually everyone at DU is against the war, but everywhere on this discussion board you see DUers trying to portray all the U.S. troops as decent, hardworking, selfless, perfect wonderful angels in uniform. These DUers want to absolve them of all blame by saying they're just being put in a bad situation by the regime in power.

But they're not angels. They're gunning down innocent Iraqi civilians from helicopters. They're shooting fleeing Iraqi families on the ground. They're pushing the buttons and pulling the triggers that send occupied houses up in smoke and flames. They're the ones torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib. They are killers. They know what they're doing.

I'm sorry to all you New PC people out there, but the troops don't get a free pass from me. I won't conform to your "just following orders" mantra. Ted Rall is right on.

[Snoggera]

19. You have some good points

There are some sadist bastards in the military, but most are there because they had few options for survival or genuinely felt they could help others.

I can't believe, as I was typing this, there was a commercial for the Army National Guard. It was full of lies, of course.

Now back to what I was saying. The "just following orders" response for those who served in various militaries has been bandied about for decades without a reasonable, psychological response. I think it's simple. Sign up, risk you life or risk court martial. Orders are not disobeyed. Hell, dissention verbally will not be tolerated. It is truly an Army of one.

Don't blame the majority of those over there. It would be good to speak with some, but of course that's not possible (unless you are Michael Moore).

[skooooo]

20. Errr..who's Ted Rall??

Sorry, I must be ignorant!

[JVS]

23. The guy who drew the cartoon in the intial post of this thread