"My Fundamentalist Mother in Law"

[BigMcLargehuge]

or, "How to Needlessly Complicate the Coming Summer"

It’s a balmy Saturday afternoon. Mrs. McLargehuge is taking care of our quarterhorse, Dallas, boarded at my In-Laws house. I am watching Ian play on the Little Tykes slide while making small talk with my Mom in Law. Things have been very friendly between us for years, and though I know she is a fundamentalist Christian and her house is absolutely choked with fundie lit, she’s always respected my Atheism. It’s not like we don’t have a comfortable relationship with regard to our different takes on the supernatural. We’ve always talked about religion, and it has always been good natured (except once a long time ago). Hell, I even volunteer in her church soup kitchen as a cook partly because I love to cook, partly because I like hanging out with her, and partly because I like knowing the homeless guys get a good hearty meal when I am on the stove.

So there we are on Saturday, she heads inside to answer the phone while I enjoy the warm rays of the sinking sun and the happy laughter of my son on the slide. Then, IT happens. She emerges from the house with the cordless phone and a glossy pamphlet. She sits and smiles and hands the pamphlet to me. I see a glossy Jesus and several smiling people on the cover. The title reads “Evangelism and the coming Rapture, a lecture and prayer seminar…”

I say, “No Ma, thanks but no thanks. I’m Atheist and don’t attend evangelical seminars. I appreciate you thinking of me, but I am not interested.”

She frowns and says, “you haven’t even looked at it.”

I answer, “I don’t have to. I can see the cover. Really, thanks, but no.”

She says, finally, “you won’t go? Not even to appease me?”

I answer, “no,” and think appease is a funny word to use.

She haurumphs, slams the pamphlet into her lap and hasn’t spoken to me since.

So it’s looking like I am in for a long and uncomfortable summer. Which is a shame because my Mother in Law and I have always had a very good relationship. I was cool with the whole thing, I didn’t freak out or yell, and I made my rejection of the offer polite and friendly. Still, she can’t get over the fact that I am not a believer. I think it sticks in her gut like a half digested donut, and it bugs her because unlike her other sons in law I don’t beat my wife, abuse drugs, drink to excess, fool around, and I have a decent job, actively raise my son with Mrs. McLargehuge, and try to be friendly to everyone in my extended family, even to the members that despise me because I’m Atheist.

I am more dismayed that she would have so little respect for my non-supernatural nature, a fact that she knows, to be upset because I refused a fundamentalist seminar. As it stands now I am not all that thrilled with the idea of making overtures to smooth things over, I figure that I did everything possible to say no in the nicest possible way, and that if she wants to hold a grudge then she can, but that isn’t my problem. I also think that this is the first salvo in what will become a long and drawn out battle between me and the In-Laws over my son’s introduction to and education in religion. She is already getting fundamentalist kids mags for Ian and gave him bible toys for Christmas.

I really don’t want to have a shitty relationship with my Wife’s family and I’ve worked very hard to make inroads, but more frequently these sort of events cloud the general discourse. I’m kind of pissed because irrespective of my good qualities, she (and many of the others) make this religion litmus test be the foundation of their dealings with me.

So, what do I do? I am not going to that damn seminar, but that fact is going to make things very complicated for my family over the summer holidays.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

1. If they really love you ...

then they should love all of your beliefs as well , simple as that . As far as getting your child bible toys for Christmas , I don't know how old your Ian is so he probably does'nt even see Jesus as the Jesus as we know - so I would not be worried over the Bible toys - To him its probably another character I don't know , you know how kids are . But burn the fundamentalist kids mags . Make it also known that you want them to stay out of your child's religious beliefs . Let them know that your child's religious beliefs belong to the child and not to them .

[BigMcLargehuge]

3. thanks

the bible toys are okay I guess, since Ian is only 2.5 years old. The mags irk me to no end, lots of "no dinosaurs on the ark" stuff and accept Jesus before the rapture crap done in cartoony drawings.

I know the war over Ian's spiritual development will be long, hot, and casualty ridden, but I don't want to hurt everyones feelings over it. However, I'll accept hurting everyone else to prevent him from being Fundamentalist-ized.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

9. Fundies messed up my childhood

Talk of hail fire and brimstone , the rapture , the end of the world : I heard all of these things when I was 6 and that triggered my depression . That really did it . It took my innocence away. My mom raised me outside of church away from fundies although I am not atheist , I believe in what I have seen . The time I spent around fundies whether in my family or in the community messed my head up completely . And Ian is only 2.5 , he does'nt know what is going on but protect him from the fundies while you can :)

[Ladyhawk]

66. I totally agree.

I was raised fundy and it totally fucked with my mental health. I may never be OK because of the mind-rape perpetuated on me when I was too little to know better. Keep a close eye on the situation. Your mother-in-law will try to proselytize your son. In a way, she can't help it because she thinks if she doesn't he will go to hell. That's why she's after you, too.

What fundies don't realize is that their dogma of original sin, their belief that simply being born will send you to hell for eternity, their incessant proselytizing and dissing of people who don't believe just like they do...those/i] are the things which create hell on earth. It's enough to drive me mad, sometimes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. There's only one way they can keep your son away from healthy skepticism

and that is killing you. Don't worry about the fundie crap they throw at him, just by being the good father you seem to be is teaching by example. I bet Ian will grow up with a properly functioning mind.

When he's a bit older (9 or so), buy him the Cosmos TV series by Carl Sagan. That's a killer.

[buddy22600]

20. so what you are in fact saying is that it is not Ian's

religeous choice, you are making it for him

[BigMcLargehuge]

23. no

when the time comes he will be able to seek out whatever belief system he chooses, but a two and a half year old, or a five year old, or a ten year old, aren't equipped to make that journey.

[buddy22600]

26. If you indoctrinate someone from the time they are a toddler until

they are "old enough" to make the decision for themselves, then they will make whatever choice you have trained them to make.

[BigMcLargehuge]

28. How is my Atheism indoctrination?

by not making religion a part of our lives what exactly do you think we're indoctrinating?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. He's not stuffing his son with his beliefs

He's just preventing OTHER people from doing that with THEIR beliefs. It's, pardon me, the "fair and balanced" thing to do. :evilgrin:

[BigMcLargehuge]

37. Obrigado voce

:)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. De nada, GrandeMcEnormeImenso

:toast:

[Vladimir]

38. Which is precisely why

Mr. BigMcLargehuge is correct in his position in the matter!

on edit: If my in-laws were strongly religious (as a 21 year old, I am thankfully years away from marriage and these types of problems!), I should imagine I would have a serious problem with them going anywhere near my children with their prosletysing. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been raised by agnostic parents, who never tried to indoctrinate me one way or the other. When I showed a desire to learn about christianity my mother bought me a bible to read, but she left the thinking to me. I am currently an open-minded agnostic myself...

[geniph]

62. If that were true,

then none of us reared in religious households would be nonbelievers today. The child will make his own decisions based on the information available to him, just as all of us do.

[Ladyhawk]

68. Yeah, I was heavily indoctrinated.

I am now an atheist.

In my experience, fundamentalist beliefs are fundamentally damaging to the individual, mostly due to the doctrine of original sin, which holds that all people are basically evil and deserve hell. All humanity is condemned by something a couple of fruit-munching simpletons did 6000 years ago when the earth was created. :eyes: The individual bears the responsibility for original sin, but has no ability to save him or herself.

I'm equally appalled by the idea that a blood sacrifice by another can absolve this sin. This is just crazy. Blood sacrifice? Torture? Crucifixion? Can't these people see how ugly this is?

Shouldn't individuals be responsible for their own actions? Why should something their ancestors did be held against them? The whole thing is a scam...and a very dangerous one to the psyche.

[Ladyhawk]

67. Bullshit.

I was indoctrinated into fundyism. It's a mind-fuck and a half, but I managed to extricate myself from it...but not without a lot of pain.

I think children should be protected from cults--fundamentalism is just a big cult. The way to do this is to teach them to think for themselves. Then they can spot the bullshit a mile away.

[lapislzi]

47. We lead by example and educate our kids

about our own belief systems. Everyone does. Educating your kid to think critically is no different from indoctrinating him with religious beliefs.

My daughter knows I am an atheist. I cannot tell her what I believe are lies; I can't tell her there's a god or a tooth fairy or Santa Claus; I explain that these are myths and serve a purpose in our culture.

When she is older, she can investigate whatever belief system she wants. My focus right now is teaching her to think critically and be open to different ways of thinking.

BigMcLarge, sounds like you're doing a great job.

[BigMcLargehuge]

49. thanks lapizli

:)

[emanymton]

2. So Why The Guilt?

Nothing will make your mother-in-law more angry than your simply ignoring her attitutde toward you.

She must realize she is wrong in her trying to press her views on you. As you progress through the Summer she will only eat at herself. Leave it alone. For her to be truly happy, _she_ must learn that she is only hurting herself by trying to make you unhappy.

The happier you are, the more unhappy you mother-in-law will become.

[BigMcLargehuge]

4. but I don't want her to be unhappy

and I don't take any pleasure in her unhappiness. I just wish she could see things a little more clearly, like I thought she did before this happened.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. Fundamentalism begets unhappiness

when the inevitable, numerous clashes with reality occur. There's nothing you can do, really. It's not your fault.

[BigMcLargehuge]

24. thanks

that makes sense.

:)

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

7. Exactly what emanymton said

Have fun watching her sulk . She sounds like my grandmother who throws fundie stuff at me everytime I'm at her house . I am not even welcomed there anymore but hey you know what , I am still happy with my beliefs . I am more a loving and missionary person than they are but to them I am the devil because I don't believe in Church and organized religion . Why ? : because money is the main focus . And they call themselves " good christians " ? ... shakes head .

[MadHound]

5. It sounds like you're already doing the right thing

By being polite, respectful, and yet firm. Stick to your guns friend, stick to your guns. Try to cause as little fuss as possible, continue to be as polite and respectful as you can, but also be firm.

As far the little one goes, though he is their grandchild, he is YOUR CHILD, and in raising him vis a vis religion, yours and your wifes voice are the final say in the matter. In fact it might be better for your wife to broath the subject on this one, rather than you as an "outsider".

I feel for you though, religion and in laws is just a pain in the ass. My in laws, while conservative, aren't evangelical christians. But my aunt and uncle :eyes: man that is another story.

I think you are doing just fine. Don't back down, and hopefully the in laws will come to their senses.

[BigMcLargehuge]

12. thanks, great advice :)

I will

[dedhed]

6. Where is your wife?

Just curious...

Is she just as fundie as your mother-in-law? What is your wife's opinion of passing fundie toys and magazines onto your son? You shouldn't have to deal with your in-laws alone.

:bounce:

[BigMcLargehuge]

14. My wife was raised Methodist but declares herself Agnostic

she was as upset as I was over the whole thing, and she was MORE disappointed in her mom than I was. She tolerates the magazines because Ian just looks at the pictures, but as he gets older, she assures me, they won't be welcome.

[Warpy]

8. Congratulations on lasting this long

It's a real achievement to maintain a good relationship with any fundy for any length of time.

I'm afraid it may be over, though, since she's looking at her grandchild as conversion material. Eventually there will be a major blowup over this, probably when she takes him (without your permission) to fundy bible school or gets him baptized. I've seen this one a lot. Either you will get her to back off on the pain of never seeing any of you again, or you won't.

She honestly thinks you are going to hell, and she's made her peace with that. What kills her is that she thinks you're going to take her precious grandson to hell. To fundies, all this stuff is as real as the chair you're sitting in.

It's a horrible situation. I've known too many people who have given up and moved far away from the fundy family for just this reason.

I wish you the best of luck on finding a better way.

[Ladyhawk]

69. Oh, you are so right!!!

Warpy said, "It's a real achievement to maintain a good relationship with any fundy for any length of time."

Fundies see non-fundies in one of two ways: 1) potential converts, or 2) temptations by the devil.

Once they are sure you aren't going to budge, the party will be over, my friend. Warpy is right. She will try to proselytize your son, maybe even behind your back. She won't be able to help herself because she thinks you are dragging him straight to hell.

Be prepared for a showdown.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. why don't you just treat it like a weird hobby she has

Like knitting or bowling or baseball

Imagine she's a really big baseball fan and wants to take you to a game.

These little fundy meetings can't be that bad. I'd go one time, say it was nice, but not for me, and that's that.

[BigMcLargehuge]

15. I don't have the personality to go and not be disruptuve

I told Mrs. McLargehuge what would be worse for Ma...

Me saying no and not going or Me going and standing up in the first five minutes and asking "do you people ever listen to yourselves talk?"

The going to see what it's like scenario just gets worse and worse from there.

[Ladyhawk]

70. "These little fundy meetings can't be that bad."

Having grown up in a fundy home, I can say with assurance that you are oh so wrong. Fundamentalism can be extremely damaging to the psyche. A child is told he or she is evil because of original sin and that the only way he or she can be saved from eternal torture is by accepting Jesus as personal savior and lord. Tell me that's not psychological abuse and I shall laugh in your face.

In the fundamentalist world view, a person can only be loved positionally (according to their walk with Jesus), not essentially. Despite the lip service given to non-conditional, agape love, no one can love anyone else's essential nature because to do so would be to love evil. Original sin, man. It's the self-esteem killer.


You can’t win.
You can’t win with original sin.
And it doesn’t even matter
How intelligent or kind
You may have been.
You just can’t win.
It was all over before it began.
You were doomed in the fall of man.
You can’t win.
 
I was dead.
I was dead before my life had begun.
I was dead
Because of something my
Great-great-great-great-great grandparents had done.
That’s no fun.
Adam and Eve didn’t do any wrong.
They were set up by god all along.
They couldn’t win.

I've been told
I can believe on Jesus Christ and be saved.
But first,
I must admit that I am totally depraved.
NO WAY!
Before you go pointing that finger of blame,
Just remember that Eve was framed.
She couldn't win.

The kind of god
Who's so insecure that he needs to send me to hell
Is the kind of god
Who'd get a kick out of damning the christians as well.
You never can tell.
It was all over before it began.
I was doomed in the fall of man,
But as a skeptic I must insist
Adam and Eve didn't really exist.
But neither does god then, for that matter
And until the day that old myth is shattered
We cannot win.

No, you just can't win.
 
-“Original Sin” by Dan Barker

[ikojo]

83. I would NOT go to the rapture seminar

Even if you go with the intentions of debunking much of the discussion, your mom in law will think *she* (or Jesus) won and that you are a wee bit interested in Seventh Day Adventism.

In HER mind, the pamphlet could have been the seed and your choosing to attend the seminar is the seed seeking water. It may not bear fruit yet but simply attending the seminar will make her even MORE insistent and persistent at trying to convert you to her form of Christianity.

Regardless of what you say to the contrary she will see it as a spiritual conflict between Satan and Jesus.

Failure to hold your ground now will weaken your stance down the road. It WILL embolden your mom in law.

[Az]

11. The only way to break this

Is to counter the propoganda they are recieving about how we atheists are supposed to be. Dismantling their beliefs will not do it. Getting angry at them only costs you a relationship. The only recourse you have is to be nice.

I could point you to sites that show how horrible the bible is to women. I could point you to verses in the bible that you could use to show her that she is supposed to be quiet and respect a man's position. But none of this will sway her as much as her own realization that you are a nice person and those telling her that you are doomed must be mistaken.

To this end, remain firm in your atheism (if that is where you are). Remain open to her as a person. Do not disparage her beliefs but remain open to discuss them if she requests such a topic. Be strong in who you are and do not let her church pull you apart.

What you are likely faced with is the church (or where ever she is getting the glossies) is stepping up pressure to convert loved ones. They are putting the issue into ultimatems. They know that the individual is not strong enough to say those yet unconverted so they use them to pull people into settings where they can be worked over by stronger social pressures. She is being used. It is reprehensible that they come between families in this way, but its even in the bible. Jesus claims that he will create hatred between families. So much for the family value angle.

[BigMcLargehuge]

19. if her church is pressuring her to convert me

then I'll put a call in to the pastor and leave my mother in law out of it. It's wrong and it needs to stop before it gets any more uncomfortable. I refuse to cut off relations with my wife's family, that isn't fair to her and I like many of them, but if it's an organized campaign within their church then I am going to make certain that we are left out of it, and she is too.

[Missy Vixen]

63. I agree

>What you are likely faced with is the church (or where ever she is getting the glossies) is stepping up pressure to convert loved ones. They are putting the issue into ultimatems.<

Your mother-in-law is most likely being told that she must "love you to Christ" and that your son is "in peril" because he is being raised by "unbelievers". She also thinks that since she's succeeded in your volunteering to cook for the homeless, she has your "nose in the tent," so to speak. It will create some very uncomfortable moments within your family if you do this, but it will stop if you call the pastor of the church and tell him that your family doesn't appreciate being targeted.

I am a former fundy. I have been out of the church for fifteen years now. We had an experience a few years back involving DH's uncle's partner, who was dying of AIDS, and a local pastor who felt it was his "duty" to "save" Stephen. (His "duty" included showing up at the emergency room when Stephen had had a stroke; the family hadn't even been notified he was there, and a staff member at the hospital violated patient confidentiality regs and called the pastor first...) Since you are a nice and reasonable person, you won't choose my solution: I called the pastor in question and told him that unless he left Stephen alone, I would march down the center aisle of that church during their main Sunday morning service and point out every hypocrite still attending there (and their various pecadillos -- or would that be "youthful indiscretions"?) until the police arrived to take me away.

Julie

[kimchi]

13. Hi Big!

I think you are on the right track. If she is upset about YOUR beliefs (or lack of them) that is HER fault. She chooses how she handles situations. It will probably blow over and you all will go back to being normal to each other. I'm sure she wants to see her grandson more than she wants to proselytize.

[BigMcLargehuge]

21. thanks kimchi

I rely on that same hope. It's a shame because we had such a good relationship until now. It pisses me off to no end that she'd pull this sort of thing and expect me to just blindly follow her into her belief system.

[Supormom]

17. She is probably near panic...

My brother is a fundamentalist as well. He has been giving my children the left behind series for children. We attend a Lutheran church, but he doesn't consider us to be "true believers". He is in a state of near panic because he is convinced the rapture is about to occur any day, and he feels it is his responsibility to "save" as many people as possible before that happens.
This is what is taught in fundie churches. Your mother-in-law really believes that she is doing what is best- "tough love", you know. Perhaps she thinks you will attend the conference to appease her if she ignores you long enough. My brother has not spoken to me for months.
Expect things to get even worse as the fundies push the rapture issue even more before the election. "Jesus is coming, so we have to support dubya." :shrug:
Good luck. I know what you're going through.

[ejcastellanos]

22. Go to the seminar

Enjoy yourself by pointing out contradictions in what Jesus said and what they preach. The Old Testament, the foundation of law for many fundamentalist, is rife with all sorts of material for heated discussion.

Ask when they are putting on their production of 'The Passion' and point out people who you think would make a great lead. A few observations on who would make a great Mary Magdalene may be appreciated to. Don't forget Judas. What is the story of Christ without Judas?

If they have collection tables, overturn them and just say you were acting on the example of Christ.

No, I don't have issues with organized religion at all.

[BigMcLargehuge]

25. LOL

that all sounds fun in theory, but that would really embarass her and I don't want to do that... I am assuming she's already embarassed by my very existence, there's no need to make it worse.

[bmbmd]

30. Go to the seminar.

If you have the nerve. Go out of your way to restore a relationship with dear M-I-L.

[BigMcLargehuge]

31. consider this...

we walk out at the end of the seminar, and she says "see... all questions about everything answered... now you can go to heaven when the rapture happens.... Don't you accept Jesus now as your savior?" and I say "No Ma, I don't..."

I wouldn't ask her to read "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russel, I wouldn't ask her to attend a meeting of The American Atheists, because I respect her beliefs.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. THAT is a thing you could and still stay civilized...

...next time she tries to evangelize you.

"Look ma, I respect your beliefs a lot, and that's why I don't do things like giving you a copy of 'Why I am not a Christian' by Bertrand Russel, or ask you to attend meetings of The American Atheists. Could you please extend MY beliefs the same level of respect?"

HINT: say that WHILE MS. MCLARGEHUGE IS AROUND so she benefits from watching her Mom's reaction.

[BigMcLargehuge]

42. yep

that's probably going to be what I say next time.

[kmla]

27. BigMcLH, here's an unsolicited opinion from kmla....

... simply treat her as you normally do. From your description, she sounds a little passive-agressive. Passive agressive people tend to elicit two types of responses - one is that they drive their intended 'sparring partner' batshit, and things will culminate in hurt feelings and amplified emotional responses, or secondly, you ignore the passive aggressivism, and go on with your life as if nothing happened.

My recommendation? You treat them like you always do. Then calmly explain to them that THEY are the source of their own unhappiness, and things are what they are. Also explain to them that they can only change so many things, and being unhappy over things they cannot control will only lead to unhappiness on THEIR part. Not yours.

It seems that you are being the grown up here. Keep it at a mature level, and you should be able sleep with a clear conscience, even if your relationship with your in-laws turns into something resembling a pile of poo...:shrug:

Best of luck to ya.

[BigMcLargehuge]

29. thanks KMLA

excellent advice.

[BiggJawn]

32. So how about you go and "Create a Scene"

Would THAT "appease" her?
What's the use of practically BEGGING you to go, even after you tell her you're an Atheist?

Oh, I know...you're only an Atheist because you haven't experienced the life-changing ministry of this particular cult-hero pastor, right?

[BigMcLargehuge]

33. I think that would make an uncomfortable situation unbearable

as much as my baser desires want to do just that. It isn't fair to her to go there and be an asshole. And in all my dealings with fundamentalists they are incapable of seeing any point of view other than the one validated literally in the bible. So regardless of my scene they would just ignore me. Besides, that though I'm Atheist, I respect their beliefs and it's not respectful to make a scene just becuase my cosmological view differs.

[BiggJawn]

53. That's true...

and I would hope that you wouldn't (as I wouldn't either.)

Yet, knowing your feelings on the matter, and still she wants you to attend just to "appease" her...I still think she must harbour some hope that "your heart will be softened" by what you'd hear. (more likely your gut will be churned)

I like what someone else said, mybe she should become an Atheist just to "appease" you...:-)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. religious appeasement

why doesnt she appease you and become an atheist?


thats what i often feel like telling my family who want me to go to temples and wear random stones for random reasons.

[BigMcLargehuge]

35. if would have been quicker on my feet Saturday

that's exactly what I should have and would have said.

[July]

45. You are respecting her beliefs.

Your participating in something you don't believe in would be mocking her beliefs. That's how my husband and I explained to our mothers our decision to be married by a judge rather than by a priest. They desperately wanted us to go along with them (i.e., appease). We pointed out that we would not be taking their beliefs seriously were we to pretend to go along with them, and if their beliefs were important to them, why would they want that?

You're willing to respect her choices and want her to respect yours. It's pretty simple.

As for your son, well, I've been there, too. You can have a good relationship, as long as you make it very, very, VERY clear that you and your wife are responsible for your child's moral education (ask her, if she doesn't get it, how she would have felt had someone tried to indoctrinate her children into a belief that she disagreed with). You can allow your son to know about her beliefs (by talking about them, even taking him to a service if you wish), but you are responsible for him and must guide him as you see fit. I strongly advise you against letting her take him to services or proselytize him without your (or your wife's) knowledge and presence. If your child asks you about things she's said that you disagree with, say that you disagree, and explain why. Also explain where she's coming from, if you can, and that he must understand that it's important to her and that he should try not to make light of her beliefs, even if your family holds different ones. (I'm sure you've thought about all of this already.)

I would throw away the fundie magazines, though, but that's just my free advice to you. I've found that my kids have been more or less surrounded by believers in school, and many of those believers (both teachers and fellow students) feel free to proselytize/threaten hellfire/question whether they're saved/talk about angels. If you wish to raise skeptics, you have to fend off, at least while your children are very young, the people throwing categorical religious assertions at them (e.g., "You are a bad person if you do not believe in Jesus").

It's good to talk about different beliefs, though, and you will find that you have to understand your own views pretty well to be able to represent them in terms a young child can understand; I view that as a benefit of this experience.

And I agree with the poster who said your mother-in-law is being passive-aggressive. She wants to influence you and your son and is willing to trade on your good relationship to do it. Your heart's in the right place. She'll get it, eventually.

Good luck to you.

[flamingyouth]

40. Sounds like the basis of a great horror short story, Big

I would advise you to use this for your writing. Other than that, all I can say is that my sympathies are with you. Stand firm.:hi:

[BigMcLargehuge]

43. I'm considering doing a book

about being an Atheist married into a fundamentalist family. Once I get the Rape of Nanking book done... Might make for an interesting examination of my life so far.

[flamingyouth]

56. I'd like a copy of each, please!

:hi:

[BigMcLargehuge]

61. hopefully Tears of Amaterasu will get picked up

by Princeton University Press. My editor is pitching it to them next week. After that it's probably memoir time.

[SheilaT]

44. A problem with fundamentalists

of whatever stripe, is that they are convinced of the reality and truthfulness of their beliefs in a way that the rest of us are incapable of understanding. And along with that belief is the conviction that everyone else must come around to their point of view. Go ahead and try all the rational things suggested by others -- I especially like pointing out to her that because you respect her beliefs you don't send her atheist propaganda -- but don't expect her to return the courtesy. See, she's right and you're wrong. At least in her opinion.

You have every right to control what your son sees and hears in your household. Think how your mother-in-law would react to Catholic literature being inflicted on her, for instance.

Somewhere down the road you'll need to be paying careful attention to what she's saying to Ian when you're not around. If she gets unsupervised time with him, you can be sure she'll fill his head with fundamentalist dogma, convince him that you are godless scum and worthy of being vilified. DON'T let her take him to her church services until he's at least 16. Or you're convinced he's able to think for himself enough to be immune to their crap.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

51. Yes, yes, YES

Sheila writes:
Somewhere down the road you'll need to be paying careful attention to what she's saying to Ian when you're not around. If she gets unsupervised time with him, you can be sure she'll fill his head with fundamentalist dogma, convince him that you are godless scum and worthy of being vilified. DON'T let her take him to her church services until he's at least 16. Or you're convinced he's able to think for himself enough to be immune to their crap.

Thank you for articulating so well the thoughts running through my head. I've known of too many instances where the nice grandparent was all "we respect your decision to be a godless heathen" in public, but on trips to the zoo telling the grandkids: "You don't really think that gorilla is your ancestor, do you" and generally terrifying them about thoughts of going to hell. And even worse, they'll make the child feel guilty, that if he doesn't do something, his mommy and daddy will burn forever, and he doesn't want that to happen, does he? It's the same psychological mind-fuck that molesters use to keep their victims quiet, except in this case the danger is if the child doesn't say anything.

[BigMcLargehuge]

52. I will deal with that when it comes up

but I hope to diffuse enough of the tension now so that it doesn't become a problem.

[VOX]

55. "Spiritual oneupmanship."

It's the fundie's game -- "I've got God, you don't." Even if you are a believer, they'll think, "Well, I'm closer to God than you are."

It's a tough game to crack, as the fundie is constantly claiming a higher position of "power."

[Onlooker]

46. Have a shitty relationship

Tell her you don't want to discuss religion with her and you don't want her trying to indoctrinate your kids. Then, hold your ground. She will probably come around, after being a little pissed off for awhile.

[BigMcLargehuge]

48. I don't want to make it uncomfortable for my wife either though

I mean, she's her mother. I wouldn't want Mrs. McLargehuge to be openly feuding with my Mom and put me in the middle.

I am standing firm, but I am trying to be tactful. What I worry about is the inevitable escallation.

[Onlooker]

50. If you don't stand firm, it will backfire

Those people don't understand boundaries. They're like children. You have to set boundaries, because if you don't they'll keep making intrusions, which will make you and your wife miserable. Boundaries mean that you don't talk about religion period, and if she tries to bring it up in any way, manner, or form, you change the subject. She's baiting you now, and if you don't make her stop, eventually you'll take the bait, and then there will be a real feud. You gotta teach her the boundaries. There's no other way with those people.

[VOX]

54. I could be all wet, but somehow I feel that this is more about something..

other than strictly her religion. Maybe she's trying to "test" your resolve, or to make you closer to her, or maybe even to unconsciously put some distance between you two. (Don't know what the back story is, and as I said, I could all wet on this one.)

Don't give an inch on the religion issue, but let her know in conventional ways (phone, e-mail, or however you communicate with her) that you care about her and your feelings about her are loving and warm. That leaves it in her court, and if she wants to maintain a grudge, she'll have to do it solo.

Just my rather devalued nickel's worth.

Best of luck with this. I know whereof you speak -- my MIL is a left-leaning Democrat and is still a high-maintenance individual.

[bobbieinok]

57. PLEASE READ - a suggestion within the context of her belief system

I grew up in the Southern Baptist church; I live and work in the midst of fundamentalists.

Here are 2 suggestions/comments that might help you and the situation.

1- If fundamentalists care about you (or a grandma who loves her grandchild), they KNOW you/grandchild must accept 'Jesus as Lord and Savior' or go to Hell. The beloved grandchild will suffer horribly in Hell.

If she loves her grandchild and cares about you, she is in torment about what will happen to her grandson and to you for eternity.

You don't share this belief. But she is in agony about this, if she truly is a fundamentalist believer.

And all who read this - even if to you she lives in a 'dream world,' it is very real and terrifying to her.

Maybe if you understand this a little, you can have some sympathy for her.

2- Maybe your wife or someone else you can talk to and who understands a bit how much she is agonizing over her grandson (and you) can talk to her and remind her that her belief system says that we are all in God's hands. They can remind her of whatever evangelist she watches/listens to. They all have stories of how in the final analysis the only thing she can really do is pray daily to God that he will take care of her grandson; she can remind God daily/hourly that she loves her grandson and that he is precious in God's sight.

That way she knows she is doing all she can do for her beloved grandson. And she is leaving him in God's loving hands, who loves everyone and gently, continuously calls everyone.

She can have peace of mind, trusting in God and her constant prayers. And there can be peace in the family, not friction and hard feelings and pain.

You don't believe this, but this is a strong element in the fundamentalist belief system.

[BigMcLargehuge]

58. thanks for the insight

my comments in bold

1- If fundamentalists care about you (or a grandma who loves her grandchild), they KNOW you/grandchild must accept 'Jesus as Lord and Savior' or go to Hell. The beloved grandchild will suffer horribly in Hell. If she loves her grandchild and cares about you, she is in torment about what will happen to her grandson and to you for eternity. You don't share this belief. But she is in agony about this, if she truly is a fundamentalist believer. And all who read this - even if to you she lives in a 'dream world,' it is very real and terrifying to her. Maybe if you understand this a little, you can have some sympathy for her.

I am not sure she needs my sympathy. I don't think her belief system is some tragedy or affliction. She's been through alot, lost one husband to a trucking accident when she already had 5 kids. Married another great guy (my Dad in Law) and had two more, one of whom I married. Her faith helped her get through that terrible rought spot and still be a good mother to her kids. That's great, and I am thrilled she had it to lean on when it was needed. And if she died tomorrow I would be the first one to offer readings/speakings at her funeral. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mother in Law. But I have to make a distinction between being antagonistic to her beliefs, which I am not, and respectful of her beliefs, which I am. I don't actively or passively try to make her question her faith, or her beliefs. She gets from it what she needs. But that doesn't mean she should make a point not to show that same courtesy to me. And as yet this isn't overtly about Ian, it's about me, and for that I am thankful because I am mature enough to respond without being disrespectful.

2- Maybe your wife or someone else you can talk to and who understands a bit how much she is agonizing over her grandson (and you) can talk to her and remind her that her belief system says that we are all in God's hands. They can remind her of whatever evangelist she watches/listens to. They all have stories of how in the final analysis the only thing she can really do is pray daily to God that he will take care of her grandson; she can remind God daily/hourly that she loves her grandson and that he is precious in God's sight.
That way she knows she is doing all she can do for her beloved grandson. And she is leaving him in God's loving hands, who loves everyone and gently, continuously calls everyone. She can have peace of mind, trusting in God and her constant prayers. And there can be peace in the family, not friction and hard feelings and pain. You don't believe this, but this is a strong element in the fundamentalist belief system.

Her sect, Seventh Day Adventists, believe that THEY are the only ones with an inroad to Heaven and that Catholics, other protestants, Jews, Muslims, and anyone else not a Seventh Day Adventist are doomed, so it isn't an issue of tolerance for others. We are trying to raise Ian with enough mental ammo to eventually take his search for meaning, or not take it, whatever he chooses when that times comes. I hope it isn't the case that she's freaking out about his perceived soul, because if it is then things are only going to get worse, and like I've said several times, I want Ian to have the same sort of relationship I had with my grandmothers (both old-school Roman Catholics) one of complete acceptance and love. My grandmothers were displeased when I explained that I was Atheist, but both understood how I can to that realization, and why. It didn't change their feelings for me.

[Solomon]

59. Well. Hate to break it to you, but you got about 16 more years to go.

With me it was my parents, not in-laws. After they realize they must leave you alone about it (and not without a nasty scene when you finally have to straight out tell them what you really think about it), they get in their heads that they gotta save their grandchildren. See, if they could get you to do it for them, they'd be happy and not get so involved. But since they know you are not going to do it, they get desperate.

Sounds like you're already past the stage where they know what you think. With me they didn't know until they realized I wasn't going to church any more and all that. So that got me a few years where they just asked and then told me I should find a church to go to.
It hit the head a few years ago when they started after my daughter to attend their church. Their pastor teaches that women are the "weaker vessels", and the "helpmates" to men. I had to finally put my foot down and tell them I will never send my daughter to a place where she is taught that she is lesser than a man.

Anyway. Good luck and be patient. And remember, the more they love you, the more they'll try.

[BigMcLargehuge]

60. thanks Solomon

All I can do now is continue to lead a happy and productive life, be the same gregarious well adjusted person I am, and continue to treat them all with the respect I've always had. I won't appologize for not being a Christian.

Once they turn their attention to Ian, I'll change tack, then things will get ugly. Luckily I have lots of good ammo. Half of my neices (her other grandkids), all from fundamentalists families were pregnant at 13-15, one nephiew spent half a year in jail, one niece is looking at 5-7 for accessory to armed robbery.

They all went to Church every week, had nothing but fundamentalist lit in the home, parents were all Rush Limbaugh listeners who placed byzantine restrictions on music, books, and television. Some of them wouldn't talk to me for years after I married their sister.

Contrapositively, my parents never kept anything from us, they let us drift from the Roman Catholic church early in life but never made a secret that they had faith, they just didn't insist that we did too. We had no restrictions on anything, music, television, books, all of them were welcome and discussed.

I'm married with a boy, a successful (yet underpaid) instructional designer preparing to celebrate my 9th wedding anniversary.

My younger brother owns a ludicriously successful restaurant and is a regionally famous chef. He has a lovely wife and two gorgeous daughters. They relax together listening to gangsta rap.

My youngest brother is a poular suis chef in the other brother's restaurant, once a pro snowboarder, he ran the kitches for two years at Mt. Hood and High Cascade Snowboard camp.

I tend to favor my parent's model, and Mrs. McLargehuge isn't opposed to my parent's approach either. Getting it through to her parents is gonna be harder, but they won't have a choice, they can either accept it and get on with life, or not accept it and be miserable. But I won't let them make Ian a little Automaton to validate THEIR belief system.

[Lars39]

64. I have fundamentalist in-laws.

I'm still wading thru the swamp. :)
You said,"Once they turn their attention to Ian...". If she is giving him religious type toys, tapes, books, etc., she is already targetting him. By accepting the gifts now, it will be harder to tell them to butt out later, when she wants to give him something totally over the top, or take him to a hell house for Halloween.

[Ladyhawk]

71. Hi Lars!

Yes, she is already targeting Ian because she thinks you are leading him straight to hell. If she is a true fundy, she won't be able to help herself: she will try to proselytize. And fundamentalism isn't something cute and non-offensive like a knitting class.

Yes, "these little fundy meetings" can be that bad.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1091067#1093446

Again I say: be prepared.

[Lars39]

73. LadyHawk!!!

How ya doin'? :hi:

[Ladyhawk]

74. I'm pretty OK.

How are you? Do you still post to that other place? ;)

[Lars39]

75. Been better, been worse.

:) I'm just getting over a bulging disk in my back. Ugh.

[Ladyhawk]

76. Ouchies! I can certainly relate.

I am still dealing with the same thing in my neck. Do you still post over at that other place? :) (I got banned.)

[Lars39]

77. Nope. Moved on and feel better for it.

It helped when I needed it the worst. I coasted for a while, then realized I was getting triggered by some of the newbies' intros. Can't help anybody else if I'm a basket case. :shrug:

[Ladyhawk]

78. That's a good point.

I'm wondering if the same isn't happening to me here on DU. I've had a political awakening during the past two years and can't seem to get enough information, but I think I probably need to slow down and just take it easy, or I won't be able to help at all.

Maybe this is my wake-up call to sign off for the day. :)

[Lars39]

79. I have had to take some breaks from DU before.

Some of the stuff that I've learned and some events have just been too much to absorb quickly or at all. Gotta take care of yourself first, LH. I'm still trying to learn that lesson. :)

[Ladyhawk]

80. Hell, me too, Lars.

What a mental mindblower.

First I discover the religion I was fed was horseshit, then I found out the politics I was fed was bullshit. During the past four or five years my mind has really had to face the music.

I need a vacation. :)

[SheilaT]

84. This is so typical

of the religious right wing -- despite their claim to higher moral ground, they collectively are far more likely to be in trouble with the law, to get pregnant out of wedlock at an early age.

I have one religious Christian friend (she's something of a fundamentalist, just not totally wacko) who is constantly amazed that despite my professed lack of belief, I have high moral standards and have raised my kids that way. She just cannot get it that a person doesn't have to be a committed believer in anything to live a good life. That's one of the attitudes that makes me scream in frustration when dealing with these people.

This has been an especially interesting thread. Whatever you do, don't back down from your belief system. One problem with people like your mother in law is that they simply do not grant others the respect for their beliefs that they want for their own. Only they have the Truth and all others are doomed, so aside from making it possible to get along with her, I'm not so sure she deserves to be told you respect her beliefs, unless she will explicitly agree to respect yours.

[BigMcLargehuge]

65. kick

kick

[Canuckistanian]

72. I agree, Mr. Big. This is unfair.

If there's any adult in America who doesn't know about Christianity, they've probably been living under a very large rock.
Belief systems are very personal and should be practised responsibly. Proselytizing can be a very intrusive act and if done unthinkingly can cause bad feelings. And to make friendships dependent on such proselytizing is even worse.

[Exgeneral]

81. maybe you should view a seminar on the rapture as amusement

I know I would. Damn, that wouild be hela-funny seeing all these grown ups believeing in something that is basically insane.
I'd sneak in some tequila, and laugh my ass off.

A hit of acid might be appropriate so you can be on the same level as these folk.

[Ladyhawk]

82. It isn't funny anymore. They're running the country. :( (nt)