What do the Freepers say about their pro-rich, anti-poor views?

[ButterflyBlood]

I haven't looked up any threads of their's on this, but considering that the Freepers for the most part aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer (to put it rather mildly), I doubt they're in the top tax bracket, unless they're trust fund babies like *, but that obviously doesn't apply to all of them. So how do they claim tax cuts for the rich are a good thing or that they benefit?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Mr. Blonde]

3. Hate

will kill you. Relax and realize that a power change will occur at the beginning of next year, just like it has so many times during the history of our great republic.

[XanaDUer]

2. Usually, that the rich

are hard working people, who earned it (in some cases, true), and anyone poor is a lazy slut who deserves to be poor and suffer.

[July]

4. Except if they're rich Democrats, like John Kerry.

Then they are very, very bad elitists.

Hey, logic isn't freepers' strong suit.

[Bill McBlueState]

7. that, plus

the way they all think they're *just this close* (holds finger and thumb together) to being in the top ten percent makes it easy for them to hate poor people.

They have no idea how rich the truly rich are.

I saw a number somewhere saying 40% of people think they're in the upper ten percent of wealthiest people

[leftyandproud]

5. They say...

They don't favor anyone..."The difference between the right and left is that we don't HATE the rich." This is what my relatives tell me. They don't care what other people make...It's not that they favor the rich...It's that they don't care about hurting the rich. They aren't a fan of the progressive income tax because they say everything Marx believed in was bad. They also oppose the estate tax simply because it was in the "commie manifesto"...they don't believe any justification we give for these things, no matter how well reasoned it may be. When government puts a limit on selfish behavior, it's a bad thing. When government limits "immoral" behavior, it's a good thing. yes...it's twisted. They want lower taxes for everyone, even if they won't benefit personally from them...They want less government on economic issues and MUCH more government on social issues. We tend want the opposite. They don't care about class issues at all, whereas most on left live day in day out thinking about the world through the prism of class. They think through the prism of their so-called "morality"...their religion. My fundie sister said the religion of the left is socialism. She may be right...I tend to trust REASON over fantasy any day. Anyway....That is what is important to them fundies religion...whereas class is what is important to us. They think we are sick people for what we believe, and we think they are sick people for what they believe. That is the reality of it. Two completely different visions of the world.

[jellofan]

6. "They say..."

Everything Marx said was right.

[leftyandproud]

8. just don't say this on the campaign trail..

it will kill us! ;)

[jellofan]

10. re:

why? it's the truth. do you think John Kerry shares our view or is it better to go Nader? I am new to the DU.

[NMDemDist2]

18. what "view" is that jello? n/t

[Bertha Venation]

19. "I am new to the DU."

Welcome! :hi:

We don't march in lockstep, jellofan. You'll find as many opinions here as Carter's has little pills. Speak your mind.

My opinion? A vote for Nader is a vote against sanity. A vote for Bush is suicide. My chest hurts when I think of four more years.

[Fenris]

9. Actually, much of what Marx said was wrong

Not his ideological or economic opinions, but his predictions about the coming of revolution.

[noonwitch]

11. They think it's not for the government to help the poor, but for charities

Helping the poor should be a voluntary act of charity, not forcibly funded by tax money. In a perfect world, they're right. But it's not a perfect world.

[leftyandproud]

12. amen...some force is necessary

to keep a sane society...the rich don't like it? tough.

[jellofan]

14. "amen...some force is necessary"

Force is the midwife of a marxist state. The sooner that happens, the happier the workers will be.

[bobbieinok]

15. ??????????

[topherX]

16. Why charities instead of government?

I had a brief conversation on this subject last night. One argument in favor of charities over government goes as follows:

Jesus worked with his followers and small groups rather than through organized religion or the government.

Therefore...

(Are you ready for the big leap in logic?)

Government is bad and small groups (such as church congregations) are good. More specifically, government welfare is theft and group charity is just. I don't buy it.

It doesn't matter whether private charity or the government helps the poor. If private charities can meet or exceed the government welfare system by providing the same funding and evenly distribute donations to the poor, then let private charities take over that responsibility. Until that happens, I take pride that a portion of my taxes goes to help those let fortunate than myself.

[leftyandproud]

17. another argument...

is that taxes "discourage" private investment...I've actually had pubs who think that if people didn't pay so much in taxes, they would gladly contribute their casht o charity, but since they believe they are funding all of the necessary welfare programs, they have "done their part" so to speak, and expect the state to care for the elderly parents and the needy, rather than taking them in their home as people used to back in the "good ole days." nonsense I say...people can still afford to give to charities...greed prevents it though. If we keep reducing the tax burden, how are we going to make people do the right thing with that money? fact is, We CAN'T!...so we can't follow their endless "less government" mantra without hurting the poor. Taxation and redistribution is the way to go...If you ask me, we need to stop being afraid of saying this, and start turning their "moral" language against them...say that redistribution is perfetly MORAL, and should be done. Make the case, rather than going along with their anti-government BS.

[topherX]

27. I don’t buy the argument that reducing taxes

encourages people to contributions to private charity. I’d be interested in seeing some figures on whether charitable donations increased in the past few years with Bush’s tax cuts. And yes, I pay my taxes give money to private charity. I cannot say that I donated more to charity since the recent tax cuts.

An advantage of giving to private charities is that the donor can pick and choose which organizations they want to help out. If I want to give money to Make a Wish Foundation, then I can do so. I will generally know where the money is spent. Great. When I pay my taxes, I have much less say as to where my money goes. I like that some of my tax money goes to help others in need. I’m not really crazy about my taxes that were used for attacking Iraq. Here’s the thing, I can participate in government by voting and getting involved. I also like that our government provides a broad coverage of help to the poor, elderly and disabled. If no one paid taxes to help the poor and donated solely to the Make a Wish Foundation, many more dying children would get their wish and a ton of needy people that currently receive aid from the government would suffer. We need to find a balance.

I like your idea of convincing our repub friends that wealth distribution is moral. I haven’t quite figured how to do that. I could use an argument like: Is it moral to help the needy people in our families and ignore our neighbors? Is it moral to help people that were recently fired from their jobs and ignore others that must raise their children and cannot find a job that would enable to them to afford childcare and pay their bills? I don’t think it’s very moral to say I’m successful and you’re not. If you don’t like being poor, get off your butt and get a job. This is an oversimplified solution.

I’m rather tired of hearing anti-government rhetoric. If we reduce our government’s role to providing for the military and providing infrastructure, who will pickup the slack? Do we let corporations rule (in some ways they already do)? Who elects our corporate leaders? Do we allow local or church leaders to take rule? I don’t like that solution. How about anarchy? I once argued that anarchy was result of getting rid of our government? My repub friend didn’t take kindly to that assertion. =)

Morality seems to be a matter a perspective. My goal is to examine my views. Where I see selfishness, I will strive for understanding and compassion. Perhaps I can help enlighten others at the same time.

[Bertha Venation]

20. Getting logic from a bible worshiper is like

getting wine from a urine sample.

[Demeter]

13. Social Darwinism---OOPS!

Mustn't use the D word!

[DrWeird]

21. Oh, they say the rich work harder, while the poor are lazy.

White people have larger IQ's and therefore make more money, while black people are dumb and abandon their children, and that's why they're poor and OK for police to beat them.

That's the standard explanation. But don't take my word for it, go there and you'll see for yourself.

[Duncan Grant]

22. Get your bootstraps here folks...

now start pullin'!

That's what they say. Everyone in this country is born on a level playing field after all...:eyes:

[Bertha Venation]

24. Hey. It worked for me.

If I can do it, anyone can do it.

No, I'm not serious. Wait -- yes, I bootstrapped it. So did my sisters. We came from child-beating, child-molesting, wife-beating, landlord-cheating, perpetually-welfare-needing (and welfare-cheating)shit, and we broke all of those patterns. Every single one of them.

But "anyone can do it" -- no, I don't truly believe that, not as far as the statement can be carried. I know a lot of people have had it worse than me, have never caught a break, have not had uplifting love in their lives. I grieve for them.

What's the answer?

[Duncan Grant]

25. Gee Bertha, I guess I cloaked that in too much sarcasm.

Here's my point: I have too often heard the "bootstraps" remark made in attempts to delegitimize "poor" people. Most recently heard it made in response to homelessness (:grr:) which I simply cannot tolerate.

Appreciate your response, my sarcasm is really directly toward folks born with every advantage in the world -- who then lamely criticize complex social problems with "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Amazingly condescending from my point of view.

"What's the answer"? - Sounds like a good thread title to me...

:hi:

[Bertha Venation]

26. Not really too much sarcasm.

I just reacted to "bootstrap" and kinda ignored the rest of your post. Your point was clear. I just got on my soapbox. :hi:

BTW yes, it's incredibly condescending. I have pointed out to more than one RRWN that I came from shit and I've made it, but that doesn't count for them. Why? Because of how I dress, the car I drive, I only own a small house (and if I rented -- they'd "pffft!" dismiss me like that), but most of all, it doesn't count because I'm a liberal.

True bootstrapping doesn't occur until one rises from shit to become a RRWN like them.

[guitar man]

23. Most of them

...have the upside-down viewpoint that wealth is created by the ultra-rich corporate ownership class.

They just don't get that wealth is created by the people that do the actual work. This upside-down way of thinking leads the rich right wingers to believe they are owed something by the working class by virtue of their wealthy,elevated position in society.

The working class (middle and poor) right wingers have been led to believe they owe something to the uber class corporate owner class for "giving" them an "opportunity to serve them."

I don't know why the latter of these two groups can't wake up and realize that wealth is created by the working class, and it is the working class that is owed by corporate America for their labor. not the other way around. Until they do, all they will ever get is the crumbs that fall off the table, unless the corporation decides those crumbs will stretch farther falling on overseas labor.