OK, this is the last Nazi reference I want to see, today

[waylon]

Bush is a Nazi = Dem defeat in 04

We will not win if we continue giving this type of rhetoric any serious consideration. I'm not talking about here on DU (down boy!), I mean allowing those comparisons any more media time than they have already gotten. The RNC is ALREADY seizing on this and that should be a warning sign. But, I guess we need to get smacked over the head with a bat before we learn our lesson. Are we dealing with amateurs here?

Let me start by saying that I dont blame moveon for having posted the ads. I do think that letting the ads "slip" through the filters was probably not much of a slip, but thats ok. I also dont blame them for taking the ads down or making their statement regarding the ads. I blame all of us who emailed the link to friends/coworkers etc(guilty). We are digging our own grave in 04 and WE CAN SEE IT HAPPENING NOW... http://www.rnc.org/

Everyday americans are not going to buy into this. They wont take it seriously, wont research it, and will label us whackos (with the help of the media) Moreover, they will pay MORE attention to the RW backlash that will occur/is occuring because of these types of comparisons. Lets stop scaring the natives, please.

We will be labeled fear mongerers. Calling someone a nazi will sound more like fear mongering than bushco raising the terror alert and telling us to buy duct tape. 9-11 is fresh in our minds and is a real threat, Nazi's are no more (for the most part).

We will be labeled McCarthy-ites. Any chance they have to "return the favor" will be taken. If we continue throwing around labels like facist, we will soon have a label of our own.

And, Florida is heavily Jewish, do I need to say any more? We do need Florida ya know?


Before you rant and flame, I understand the comparisons. Ive read the history of the Bush family's ties with the Nazi's. Im not saying I disagree. Im just saying, BE PRACTICAL about what we discuss because WE are responsible for the content of our message. Ask yourself if you will be more satisfied having the half country think bush is a nazi or, will you be more pleased having bush un-appointed?


The RNC is NOT afraid of these ads, they relish them. They WILL capatalize on them. Our candidates WONT touch them. And we are hanging ourselves by supporting them. Enough of this, dont you think?

Lets get in the game folks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I really think the paranoia about this is humorous

The RNC will use anything we do against us. Fuck them. It really doesn't sway anyone one way or the other.

[RandomKoolzip]

6. I'm with you, NSMA...

At this point we really have little or nothing to lose. The right started this shit, now they want us NOT to play ball. Well, I could really give half a shit WHAT they want. They're gonna demonize us no matter what we do- if we act defensively we're smeared as angry and dangerous, and when we back down we're smeared as weak and spineless. I say let's damn the torpedoes...

[waylon]

10. that sounds an awful lot like throwing in the towel

Maybe we would be slapped around so much if we didnt go into elections with a half assed plan and fragmented goals!

Just a thought

[RandomKoolzip]

19. Not at all.

Far from it; I say let's go on the OFFENSIVE.

The right's lockstep apparatus will always twist and distort our views. It doesn't matter if we raised Jesus from the dead and walked on water; THEY WILL ALWAYS HATE US. Fortunately, the right's hatred for us is as much of a turn off for as large a swath of the population as some obscure reference to Hitler from a leftist organization is to a different swath. And the more people hear about this stuff, the more people decide which camp they belong in.

And as far as exiting from the primaries unscathed....All of the candidates have strong organization and fully-realized plans, some more appealing than others.

[Touchdown]

22. I think your barking up the wrong tree.

The RNC invented this "outrage" over this one singular entry in a contest. They are the ones blowing it out of proportion. They are the ones crying foul. They are the ones blaming Move On, and blaming the entire Dem party for it.

They also know that we can't control each and every left leaning person who has the skills to make such movies, so if they bark loud enough, they can define the terms of the debate and get the rest of us to fear of any outburst from any singular person who SPEAKS ONLY FOR HIMSELF...which is exactly what they did to you. I see they snagged you, hook line and sinker.

We're in the mud now. Might as well wrestle, and throw their hypocracy back in their faces (Hitlery, Feminazis, trail of bodies behind clinton, etc). We get out now, like you advise, these "moderates" that you want to court will see this as us looking guilty, and just chalk us up as spineless Dems yet again.

Never Apologize, explain yourself, backtrack, or capitulate to the demands of the opposition. Those "moderates" love to see people fight back when they've been unjustly attacked, and are severely disapointed in the attackee when they don't get it. This RW crying foul over this CONTEST ENTRY, is just that...an unjust attack.

[waylon]

31. I dont blame you

completely :) The RNC invented it, we will continue to fuel it if we keep it up.

"They" didnt get to me, 2000 did. I see the mistakes, Id prefer not to repeat them. Again, what are our goals?

Never apologize, explain, or backtrack? Touchdown, meet Dr Dean, Dr Dean, meet Touchdown... h

Id rather have a D in office while I debate this so, if you will pardon me, Id like to try to convert those who share my goals.

[Touchdown]

51. How do you think the repubs win elections?

They do it by...not apologizing, dismissing criticizm outright, not explaining, and not backtracking. They also win by demonization and innuendo(Saxby Chambliss), which I am NOT advocating.

Now that this little ad has become fodder, how do you suggest we (as a party) handle it? By apologizing, yet again, like the Wellstone fiasco that will make us look sheepish? It's out now. Its news. You can't put it back in the bottle, so what are we to do about it?

"They" didnt get to me, 2000 did. I see the mistakes, Id prefer not to repeat them. Again, what are our goals?"

Me too. However, we may disagree on what those mistakes actually were. I say Gore not defending himself against the unjust attacks, and Lieberman's moral crusade, and capitulating on the overseas ballots during the Florida recount were. What say you? That we weren't "nice" enough? My goal is to have a Dem in the White House by an EC of 40 states, and a takeover of the House, and to have Colorado go Dem this year. I may not make them all, but I believe we can't do even half of it if we give the Repubs an inch...even with this issue.

"Id rather have a D in office while I debate this so, if you will pardon me, Id like to try to convert those who share my goals."

That is so disgustingly insulting, it's not even worth responding to. You're not going to get unity with talk like that, Pal.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

120. Right on! Voters want feisty combative politicians on their side.

The Dems have lost to Repubs by losing their image as 'Protectors' to a fearful US public. "Too nice, too wishy-washy, not combative enough." Voters want someone on their side who fights like a big silver-back Type 'A' gorilla. TV Nation sees a dangerous world with wolves at the door and wants a Dirty Harry defending them, not a Mr. Rogers.

Here's why the Hitler-Bush topic is perfect for Democrats:

1. It is epic and horrifying, so it is noticed in the media noise floor of piffle and celebrity palaver. Americans think politics is boring, petty and irrelevant and ignore a topic unless it beats them over the head with show biz violence and/or sex. Violence definitely leads sex after 9/11.

2. The level of atrocity implied by the topic of Nazis is another marker for getting noticed by an electorate desensitized to casualties and which seems to need higher and higher body counts to even consider the moral implications of war crimes.

3. Huge coherency value. It actually makes it easier for Americans to comprehend the logic behind the Bush family aiding all three of America's most popular bad guys: Hitler, Hussein, Osama bin Laden. If you can relate a topic to 9/11 or WWII, you're in the emotional door regarding civic morality.

4. Right vs. Wrong can be articulated by the Dems. It is a chance for Dems to express moral outrage against mass murder, corruption and lying when the Republicans are heavily exploiting the social morality issues that invigorate their core right wing fundamentalist Christian voters. This can appeal to both the religious and the compassionate as a unifying civic morality without the divisive churches being involved.

5. The more angry and condemning the candidate, the easier to identify with for a cynical electorate which is alternately confused, fearful, bored, disgusted and hopeful for a better world . The neocons have steered the public towards wanting a strong dictatorial son-of-a-bitch who will fight dirty for them in a dangerous world.

6. The idea that the domestic enemies of the US Constitution are more dangerous than foreign enemies needs to stick to the wall. The Repubs have gotten far with this idea of 'domestic enemies' being 'welfare queens' and 'homo-pedophile-perverts' and 'socialist feminazis' and 'red tape bureaucrats.'

7. Showing the parallels of Hitler's ascendance after the Reichstag fire and Bush's after 9/11 with accompanying loss of civil rights gives Dems a chance to act the role of The True Agents of Homeland Security.

So use HOT language. Induce outrage. It is deserved and it WORKS.

The message is:
"NAZIS HAVE HIJACKED AIR FORCE ONE!"
"THE WHITE HOUSE IS INFESTED WITH VAMPIRES IN CHRISTIAN CAMOUFLAGE!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. I really think this whole ALIENATE'S the centrist is over the top!!!

Like Rush Limbaugh didn't do that with his racist sexist rants??

Please explain THAT contradiction before trying to silence people simply because they say what you DON'T want to HEAR!

[POed_Ex_Repub]

34. What do you MEAN Rush didn't aleinate people?

As I recall he was fired from ESPN...
As I recall his comments weren't exactly popular among the mainstream media... (well, maybe Faux, but they don't count)

See, it works both ways.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. He was fired for one specific comment and would be there STILL but for it

He was ugly and inflammatory prior to being hired and managed to get a job and heck..he used the nazi reference first...only he used it in regards to women who would demand equal rights...definitely far less inflammatory than using it to describe a man whose family supported Hitler's war machine..who says MY GOVERNMENT and who says " a dictatorship would be easier" NO?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

49. And the very first time he alluded to those biases

He was fired. Didn't take too long did it? I bet ESPN would tell you now that they regretted the decision of hiring him to begin with.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. True and they probably do..not because of WHO he is but because

it was predictable that he would bomb badly using his vitriol with a larger audience...still...he DID get hired, he HAS had a national television show and he WILL be hired again.

Frankly it wasn't that he alluded to those biases...he made a downright bigoted comment. My point still is that Rush is on the air every day and it does NOT seem to be hurting Republicans.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

55. Duely noted...

Their tactics involve counting on voter apathy, misleading people, and appealing to base that tolerates these things. And it is because of these very qualities that they can spin this ad in a way that is unfavorable to us.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. OK but as a suggestion

There is a great book by Joan Didion called POLITICAL FICTIONS which addresses the manner in which voter apathy is repeatedly invoked more than it is the case. Also Kevin Phillips, addresses this in his book WEALTH and DEMOCRACY...and finally since I don't want you to think I am being ..well..deliberately contrarian (I've enjoyed the exchange)..my MAIN issue with the thread starter's opening post is that this comparison equals a DEM loss.

It may be inflammatory to compare Bush to Hitler...it might not be nice, it might not win anyone OVER on its own..but I think we can both agree in the big scheme of things that independently it really means nothing compared to the real issues.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

62. Agreed

:hug:

[uhhuh]

67. As I recall

He RESIGNED from ESPN. They didn't have the balls to fire him.

[waylon]

39. as i said

Id be happy to entertain the comparisons HERE. Why open ourselves up to what we all agree is a biased media attack dog?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. I just don't see where it HARMS..when in fact it LEAVES an opening

for the Bush family's TIES to the Nazi's to become PUBLIC..especially in light of Michael Moore's upcoming movie and Kevin Phillips' just released book! (remember Phillips is a Republican)

[ComerPerro]

12. As always, NSMA, you are right

If its not this, it will be anything else that does the trick.

It really funny that the people screaming "hate speech" now are the ones who still use words like "Hitlery" to describe the Senator from New York.

Fuck those fascist assholes.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

2. Agreed

Ads like this may energize the base, but the base is already comitted to voting against the shrub. We need to concentrate on Moderates and Swing voters... and this is the type of thing that alienates them.

[waylon]

4. Thank you

Very good point. I knew there was a reason why these ads resonated with alot of us just didnt put it into words.

[Terwilliger]

18. ok, so what is your solution for what might turn them on?

tax cuts?

[waylon]

20. UN involvement in Iraq

that is our strongest selling point, i think. Job loss, the medicare bill and not getting osama.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

23. I'm with you on this Waylon

This may play well on DU, but to win an election we've got to keep in mind what 'average joe voter' is going to be voting for. Like it or not 'Average joe voter' watches CNN (and for the most part believes it).

Best way to appeal to the masses is hitting on what they can see :

Job loss
Lack of WMD's
Death toll in Iraq, (and the need for continued troops there)
Lack of Osama Capture
Deficit
Inflation (anyone see the value of the dollar lately?)

People can RELATE to these things. All this other stuff, no matter if it is true, just makes you look cooky to the average voter.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. That's fine but in a sense you just contradicted your prior post

by admitting that those issues are FAR more important than whether a name was hurled..BTW..I don't think the issue will be INFLATION so much as DEFLATION.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

41. Where's the contradiction??

I'm just trying to throw out some ideas on what will win votes. In an election it's the votes that count. Hey, I dislike the shrub as much as anyone, but there are limits to the names I'll call a guy. Possibly the worst president we've ever had.. but I don't think many americans (outside the comfy confines of DU) are going to take the reference kindly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Oh I know and again, I really for the most part enjoy your perspective

but in one breath to say that a comparison alienates people when in fact..it DOES exist based on his actions and statements and in another breath point out those REAL issues that are FAR more important to people's livelihoods does seem to negate the concern for the issue of name calling.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

53. Okay.. okay... I'll phrase it in another way...

DUers = WE see the connection. There are definitly some simlarites

Average voter = Doesn't see the connection, they've been force fed mass media and for the most part believe it. When they see this ad, they won't see the connection, they'll just be insulted.

There are PLENTY of issues for us to post ads on that WILL connect with voters.

All I'm saying is we need to pick our spots. I wanna win this darn thing!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. I dunno..they may see it and either question it or dismiss it

but they'll only be insulted if the ad personalizes it to their choices (I must confess, I haven't seen the ad..I know..MY BAD..and have mostly directed my comments to the original point of the post that comparisons to Hitler will cause us to lose..I think it is far fetched :D )

[POed_Ex_Repub]

76. Sure..

But either way, it's not a postive thing for us. (And we're better off putting our energies toward other things)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

89. I guess where I diverge from that is as follows

What allows fascism to flourish is the fact that industries/corporations have LONG legislative memories...so long they OUTLAST whole populations...that is why we are seeing so MUCH of Roosevelt's reforms rolled back or done away with entirely...the voting public has a very SHORT legislative memory where history or even a few years ago is concerned.

If invoking an image of a dangerous man's rise to power can draw analogies worth looking at, it might NOT be a bad thing.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

103. And I would agree...

If a large portion of the populace didn't get thier political news in the form of sound-bites. The analogy may hold up well here. But out in the world (outside of DU). On the one side you'll see our 30 second commercial running three or four times, on the other side you'll see mainstream media picking it apart over and over and over and over and over... Even as our candidates back away from it. Our message, even if true, is going to appear irrational to the average person.. and why? Because CNN told them so.

Other issues, particularly the jobs one, is going to gain us more ground. No matter how much the media tries to spin the economy. 9.7% unemployment is hard to hide. A record deficit is hard to hide... Troops still in Iraq is hard to hide... No WMD's found is hard to hide.. And yes Buscho is trying very hard to hide it.. HOWEVER, it's much firmer ground to stand on than the Hitler ad. It's a smarter place to put our energies as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm willing to agree to disagree. ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. No worries. I think we only disagree on the level of harm done

for the most part. Again...nice exchange. Thanks.

[Touchdown]

57. No they don't.

"Like it or not 'Average joe voter' watches CNN (and for the most part believes it).""

The average joe voter watches ER, Friends, Cold Case, Alias, Will & Grace, Survivor, CSI, 24, X-Files reruns, MTV, HBO and daytime soaps. CNN has dismal ratings.

As far as news, the majority are still getting it from ABC, CBS and NBC...in that order. Check the Nielsens.

[MoonAndSun]

72. You are right, Touchdown... the "average Joe or Joan" do not

watch the cable news shows, those are watched by partisans and political watchers. The Big 3 news shows and the newspapers are where most Americans get their news.

We here at DU put too much credence on the cable shows, granted they all skew right, but everyone who watches them knows that already.

[Terwilliger]

33. and what has moved in polling and other indicators

since Dems have tried to make those arguments?

I mean, Dems have already gone after Bush on these points and no one has listened. Now what?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Two words: RUSH LIMBAUGH

If hyperbole and name-calling costs votes then please explain that. I do respect your opinions, Po'd, but I think the myth that it alienates anyone or COSTS votes is not really provable.

People may think it is over the top but I doubt it would EVER be the single factor in their vote or even a major contributing factor.

[tom_paine]

3. I strongly diagree

Totalitarians want people to be afraid to speak their minds.

Yes, the Busheviks aren't Nazis per se, but they belong to the same family of Totalitarian and Corproatist beliefs.

They also share a similar hatred of liberals and of openness in government.

They also share the same propaganda strategies of demonization and dehumanization, though the details are naturally different (different countries, different customs, you know). Just try taking an Ann Coulter or Hannity screed and replacing "Liberal" with "Jew", and "America" with "Germany" and see what comes out. Very enlightening.

Hmmm. They also share the advent of a national tragedy under questionable circumstances used as excuse for severe curtailment of civil liberties and political gain.

Hmmmm.

[waylon]

7. Again, what are our immediate goals

We should focus on what "average" voters want to hear, not what we want to say. We will have plenty of time to be selfish later, right now lets focus on whats good for all of us.

[RandomKoolzip]

13. "Selfish?"

!!!

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Z-axis]

127. Wants to hear what?

I'm sorry, but I really don't get if you are

1. Ashamed of our agenda and the concerns that come from it; or,
2. Ashamed of the "average voter" and what they might need to hear.

How would concealing our platform help to distinguish us from the other side? Why else would a voter want to vote for us?

pigs/farmerspigs/farmers/pigsfarmers/elephantsfarmers/pigs/farmerselep
hants/farmers/donkeyspigs/farmers/elephants/pigs/farmers/donkeys/eleph
ants/donkelephants/donkelephant...

(say this mantra, over and over, let all intruding thoughts
bubble away, let the mantra come from within, follow the mantra
to the center, find the stillness in the mantra, sit in the
stillness, sit in the center, say the mantra...then go vote.)


z-axis

[Kellanved]

37. *small rant*

Dirk (and Dr.Weird) already made a longer rant (and I completly agree with him/them), but I have to post a few words about this one.

Communists and Social Democrats were among the first to go to the Concentration Camps (the ones for political prisoners). They were thrown out of Parliament, the election results ignored. So please stop implicating that left leaning people faced no heat during late Weimar and the Nazi time.

(sidenote: The decision to throw the communists out of the German parliament again during the cold war was IMHO a false one, especially because of the historic implications.)

However I see no relevance to current American events; I don't want to belittle the people who see the danger of a self proclaimed "moderate" far right leader. But I don't see any use in calling him Nazi/2nd Hitler or similiar - it doesn't gain anything, it even hurts; it is historically inadequate and frankly it is plainly wrong.

[papau]

5. NY Post yesterdays Herr Howie ant-Dean opinion column, or

RNC ally Grover Norquist repeatedly compared taxing the wealthy with the Holocaust in an interview on NPR,

or Rush and his Hiterly Clinton

or the RNC's anti Senator Max Cleland ad, against a triple amputee as a result of wounds sustained in Vietnam, where Osama bin Laden and Saddam are featured as Max's buddies

do not draw media outrage - or even RNC outrage.

Perhaps the RNC's moral outrage doesn't mean a whole lot.

And maybe the whore media will dump on Dems no matter what we do.

[RandomKoolzip]

9. Let's not forget the tiresome comparison

The pro-lifers always make between Legal Abortion and the Holocaust.

[Karenina]

64. Here's a link

to the Post hit piece. Enter at your own risk. :puke:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/4965.htm

They've been doing it for YEARS and are the owners and architects of the means, which has pureed the concept of civil discourse into poisoned sludge. Slinging vituperatives is their specialty. Maybe they see co-opting the reference as a theft of "intellectual property." ;-)

[Cleita]

8. Yes, there was an essay by James P. Pinkerton in the LA Times

today, stating that Dean hasn't a chance in Dixie. He went on to say that most of the south had already made up their minds to vote for Bush. So I had to laugh at the typical freeper logic. If he was trying to attack Dean by saying he couldn't win the south, what is the point of saying it? If the south has made up their collective minds in favor of Bush, there is no Democrat who will win. There is no point of wasting time over it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. People like you

make me want to repeat the Bu$h = Hitler mantra even more.

Thanks, for the new talking points.

[waylon]

15. are you that selfish?

honestly, are you doing it because it feels good or because you think it will win 04?

Dont hate the player, hate the game

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. Anything that makes Bu$h look bad

is good in my book.

Negative press is negative press, and it shows other people that Bu$h is not really all that popular.

[DrWeird]

14. STOP COMPARING HITLER TO HITLER!

I understand that we liberal democrats here in the democrat party don't like Chancellor Hitler but that doesn't mean we should compare him to Hitler, one of the worst dictators in history.

Since the Reichstag was tragically burnt down by communists, Hitler has been going after the communists with gusto, he's improved the economy, and he has the wide spread support of the people! So if you don't want Hitler to win another election than please stop comparing him to Hitler. Surely Hitler wouldn't use questionable means beat us in the next election!

[waylon]

16. he will, of course

Im not talking about questionable means, im talking about sure-fire ways to get our butts kicked. there is a difference

[Cleita]

17. Hehe.

Good one.

[Dirk39]

24. Hello from Germany, you're right, but:

do you think, it would have been the right thing to do for Germans under the Nazis to sit in their cellar all day long and discuss, if it is legitimate, to compare Hitler to Nero or the Zar?
The people, who are so obsessed with that comparison, make a mistake: if the people simply don't realize, what's happening, it doesn't make sense to try to wake them up by comparing what is with something that is generally accepted as "evil". Hitler has become some kind of Disney Figure anyway. I guess it's simply far more important to react on what's happening now and to offend people for what they are doing now. If in a certain moment a historic comparison might help to reveal something, it might be used and sometimes it must be used. But to go over this again and again, just leads to nothing. It's as impressive as Bush, legitmating the invasion in Iraq, stating Hussein would be worse than Hitler and Stalin.
On the other hand, I have the impression that a lot of democrats act like little children, who need to ask mamma and daddy republican, what they are allowed to say. Maybe DU should hire some freepers as moderators to become electable?:-)
Hi,
Dirk

[RandomKoolzip]

27. Damn! Have a Lowenbrau on me, Dirk!

I think you got it right.

Why should we play by their rules, when their rules are fixed against us?

[waylon]

35. You are correct!

"if the people simply don't realize, what's happening, it doesn't make sense to try to wake them up by comparing what is with something that is generally accepted as "evil". "

[uhhuh]

26. If half the country saw the chimp as a Nazi

He would be gone. Do you think the "average voter" is just an idiot?
I get so sick of hearing that we have to stop pointing out the truth because the swing voters, and "average Americans" are too dumb to get the message.

The rw has no problem with going over the top and abusing our candidates in a similar fashion, but we should just sit here and take it because they control the message?

I call bullshit on you and I say that we should have every thread have a chimp/ Nazi message in it. That's how the wingers do it. They put a liberal/Evil message in everything they do. What's the difference?
I suppose that if this were another thread, you would be scolding those who call the "average American" sheeple because it alienates them. That's exactly what you're doing. If you are saying that discussing the parallels between this regime and the Nazi regime is too much for them, them you must think that the average person is stupid. I happen to believe that the average person has not had all the information presented to them and would understand the parallels if they were given that information.
If you think that the fact that the right controls the message is reason to give up and shut up, them why should we even bother?
Are you saying that in order to win, we are going to have to trick the voters into doing what we want, hide the truth, and not discuss unpleasant realities?
I hate it when people infer that the average American is an idiot.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

32. Average americans are NOT idiots..

But they don't obsess over politics the way we do. Hell, a good number of them can't even tell you who the vice president IS, let alone anthing about a Haliburton scandle etc. Comparing someone to HITLER requires a BIG leap of faith (keep in mind Bush has a 50% approval rating). It's waaaay to easy for the RW to spin in a negative way. And it's not like we don't have a TON of issues we can debate on. This one is polarizing, IT WILL BACKFIRE. Do you see any Dem candidates rushing to defend the ad? No? Ever wonder why? Maybe it's because they want to get elected.

Votes is what matters people, and this ad will not gain any votes. It just looks like a smear.

[uhhuh]

36. Tell me how it will backfire

The rw does it all the time and they have met with success. I think the fact that we back away from these issues is what causes them to fail, not presenting them.

[waylon]

42. can we agree the media is no longer our friend?

need I say more?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

46. That's because that's the way their base thinks...

Their base likes all sorts of things I don't approve of. (Which is why I switched parties to begin with) I like to think ours is above that sort of thing.

[waylon]

38. wrong, oh so wrong

I never said the average folks were stupid, never even inferred it. What i implied was that most are apathetic and uninterested in politics, which just happens to be true.

Characterize ME in any way you want but I am being practical. Either we start focusing on a positive message or we shall continue this debate in 05 under the second bush jr administration.

Its up to us. We can whine about unfairness, media bias, or puff up our chests and say "were mad as hell and were not going to take it anymore" but in the end, all that matters is getting the whitehous back. Do you agree?

I dont care how we get it, Im just trying to learn from past mistakes. Or is that bullshit of me?

[Terwilliger]

40. If you're trying to learn from past mistakes...

then why aren't you admitting that simply selling the American public on the merits of one guy over another ISN'T what will make the differencein the final analysis?

[waylon]

44. Gore was far from an inspiring candidate

and had the clinton label attached to him (still fresh in many moderates and swing voters' minds) He lost his own home state!

[Terwilliger]

48. you didn't answer my question

yes, I know about Gore's problems, but you're not addressing his treatment by the media either

I'm still trying to figure out why you think that we can simply win over voters on issues...how????

[waylon]

54. gore wasnt bashed in the media

and candidates have the opportunity to use the media toward their own ends rather than letting the media use them. I dont think we should settle for the "media dont like us" routine of the past

[Terwilliger]

60. hmm...well thats not much of an answer

have you read any Corn, or Franken, or Norm Solomon? Have you seen any of the facts surrounding media analysis?

All that aside, where's your response? You still haven't said how Democrats can make persuasive arguments based on issues alone an effective tool. You've said that's the only way to victory, but the historical evidence for that isn't there.

[waylon]

71. Remember '92?

We make a definitive policy statement, we dont waver, we distance ourselves from the fringe and keep things POSITIVE

[Terwilliger]

78. we BARELY won in 92 and that was only because Clinton was charismatic

also because GW Bush sucked on his own

anything else?

[waylon]

83. Great analogy

Can you apply that to 04? Bush sucking, charasmatic candidate (Dean comes to mind)

anything else?

[Terwilliger]

90. well, you and I think of Dean differently

but now that the door's open, don't you think Dean is offering up the same kind of political branding that you decry with the Hitler ad?

[waylon]

95. YES, and he is getting nailed for it

I dont think he's the perfect candidate but he does have charisma! Remember clinton had a few damage control meetings himself when running. Dean will get corrected, hopefully by his supporters instead of the media. This is what I am talking about. Lets not add fuel to the fire

[Terwilliger]

99. nailed by other Democrats

then, of course, by Repukes which was expected.

so now we've come full circle: the Republicans define what's acceptable and we step and fetchit

Good luck with winning this year, cuz I dont think it's in the cards.

[uhhuh]

65. Are you Serious??

Love Story? Invented the internet? He keeps reinventing himself? Boring,bland, blah?
Would you like to try again?

[waylon]

75. I never said they coddled him

I said he had an upper hand from the start.... do i need to try again?

[uhhuh]

85. Yes you do

Since you obviously bought the spin that he said he invented the internet.

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."

That is akin to saying that the chimp invented the department of Homeland Security. Gore merely said theat he promoted initiatives that caused it to come to be.

[RandomKoolzip]

68. W H A T?!?!?!?!?!?!

Earth to Waylon: Did Gore claim to "invent the internet" or not?


Correct answer here, and I'll get off your back forever.

[waylon]

70. yes he did

are you blaming the media?

[Touchdown]

84. BZZZ! Wrong! Go back to community chest.

"While in Congress, I took charge in the creation of the internet."

What thesaurus are you looking at where "creation" equals "invented"?

[RandomKoolzip]

86. Gore claimed that

he as one of the few politicians in Washington who took the initiative to pass a piece of legislation that helped create the internet. He never said "I invented the internet." Yes, I blame the media.

[waylon]

94. you made my point

first, gore got more positive spin before the election than bush did.

second, if we know the media will spin it, why add this nazi conspiracy theory to the mix? and

third, why not learn from it and not repeat the same mistakes?

[RandomKoolzip]

98. Huh?

"third, why not learn from it and not repeat the same mistakes?"


Gore didn't lie, yet the media made it appear so. You yourself even said, "yes he did," when I asked if he lied or not. Okay- lesson learned? Whatever we say is going to be twisted and distorted by the right-wing-controlled media. So, what's our alternative- don't say ANYTHING? Frankly, I think Gore's mistake was rolling over on the image-tampering done by the media. He should have fought them on these points...America loves a fighter.

[waylon]

105. No, Gore didnt lie....

he tried to assert something that was, at best, suspicious. He invited this on himself. His actual statement was, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." He didnt say ... passing legislation or made no mention of "helping" to create it. He said he took the initiative in creating it. And, he got called on it. What should we learn from this.... hmmm?

If that was twisted by the media, (other than to say he lied when we might call it exagerate) Id like to see it.


Our alternative is to stay away from that type of "suspicious" claim. Gore's only mistake, if any, was wasting the media potential he had by not framing the debate in his own terms.

[RandomKoolzip]

110. I don't see anything slippery or suspicious in what Gore said.

If you'd like to see how it was twisted by the media, your answer to the other post is absolute proof! Gore states a truth, nothing exhaggerated or shady about it...then...The media interprets his quote FOR YOU and countless other media outlets regurgitate the twisted version, until it becomes a meme. Result: "Gore said he invented the internet." But he never did! You believed he said he invented the internet because the media told you, and you just now had to do research to find the exact quote. So if the media is lying to you and us, why play their game?

Look, I am tired of this. I'm leaving this thread.

[uhhuh]

114. Suspicious?

"VP Gore was the first or surely among the first of the members of Congress to become a strong supporter of advanced networking while he served as Senator. As far back as 1986, he was holding hearings on this subject (supercomputing, fiber networks...) and asking about their promise and what could be done to realize them. Bob Kahn, with whom I worked to develop the Internet design in 1973, participated in several hearings held by then-Senator Gore and I recall that Bob introduced the term ``information infrastructure'' in one hearing in 1986. It was clear that as a Senator and now as Vice President, Gore has made it a point to be as well-informed as possible on technology and issues that surround it."

snip

"As Senator, VP Gore was highly supportive of the research community's efforts to explore new networking capabilities and to extend access to supercomputers by way of NSFNET and its successors, the High Performance Computing and Communication program (which included the National Research and Education Network initiative), and as Vice President, he has been very responsive to recommendations made, for example, by the President's Information Technology Advisory Committee that endorsed additional research funding for next generation fundamental research in software and related topics.
While it is not accurate to say that VP Gore invented Internet, he has played a powerful role in policy terms that has supported its continued growth and application, for which we should be thankful"

snip

This is from Vint Cerf, who is often referred to as the father of the internet.
How is this not taking initiative in the creation of the internet?

[uhhuh]

104. Do you even read what you type?

"first, gore got more positive spin before the election than bush did.

second, if we know the media will spin it, why add this nazi conspiracy theory to the mix?"

How did you come to the conclusion that Gore got more positive spin from the media?

You are shown that the media reported the rw spin that Gore invented the internet, and you somehow infer that this was reporting in his favor???

And then you go on to say that the bad ol rw media,(which gave Gore such good press?) will spin this, so we better shut up about it?

Huh?

[RandomKoolzip]

106. Well, I'm finally gonna put somebody on ignore...

I know, waylon's posts are making my head hurt. His circular logic seems more and more purely contrarian than constructive. I think he just wants to argue.

Good night, waylon. *yawn*

[waylon]

108. good night

[waylon]

107. Gore had the media advantage in 2000

We no longer have that advantage. Does that clear it up?

[uhhuh]

116. How?

How did he have the media advantage?

[Sterling]

117. Can I have some of what you are smoking?

"gore wasnt bashed in the media"


You just lost all credibility.

[uhhuh]

61. The media

Who is going to deliver your positive message, my friend? How is it practical to present another, bland, fact-filled message to apathetic, uninterested people?
I say we need controversy. I say say the American people and the media will pay attention to wild accusations and innuendo. I say that when they start to look and you have evidence to support your ideas, they may keep paying attention.
I say that the media highlighting Dean is only partially due to rw urging. I say the rest of it is because he makes good controversy and gets ratings and readers.
People get interested when something is interesting. The phenomena repeats itself in scandals and car accidents worldwide.

[waylon]

66. final thoughts for the night

Get some sleep people!

I still say, we are asking for a whoopin with this.

[Terwilliger]

74. you've offered no alternative

but, hey, let's just keep on acting like you have any answer that won't insure a Dem defeat this year

[waylon]

81. are you looking for a magic wand or something?

I get the impression that all your hope has faded and you are looking for some miracle solution summarized in a short paragraph. Sorry, cant provide that. But we can stick to some disciplined principles cant we?

Just off the top of my head, STAY AWAY FROM WHAT THE MEDIA WILL LABEL AS WHACKO CONSPIRACIES.


We complain about the media but then we gift wrap a democratic ass whoopin tool for them and pound our chests for the right to do it. Oh, and we slander anyone who objects to these tactics....yeah, Im more confident than ever. Wish i would have never brought this up, I could have slept better tonight

[Terwilliger]

92. The media will label anything the Democrats do...

as something less than perfect, and verging on the irresponsible, and you want to act like doing the same old thing will cause a different outcome

[waylon]

97. We have been doing the "same old thing"

Bickering amongst the candidates, wavering on issues, tying ourselves to the fringe elements in the party.... havent we?

If everything that came out of our candidates mouths was policy positions instead of hate bush or hate candidate X, we might be getting better press.

[Terwilliger]

101. again, I refer you to 2000

Gore and the DNC did this all year yet NEVER got a break

Now, here you are saying we should do it again, and this time it will work. Do you see the disconnect?

[waylon]

109. I disagree

Lets not forget that Gore won the election!

[Terwilliger]

115. let's not forget who's sitting in the chair right now

now now, waylon...here you are citing something that is equally felt by "mainstream" voters to be a losing issue, and contempt from middle-of-the-road Americans who aren't into politics...

"He "stole" the election? How dare you suggest such a thing!?"

You must admit that people think that way, no matter your "belief" in the rightness of the outcome.

[snippy]

30. Here is the first comparison of Bush to Hitler that I recall.

November 15, 2002 DRUDGE REPORT quoting from Bob Woodward's book:

ROVE THOUGHT POST-9/11 WORLD SERIES GAME LIKE NAZI RALLY

"The president emerged wearing a New York Fire Department windbreaker. He raised his arm and gave a thumbs-up to the crowd on the third base side of the field. Probably 15,000 fans threw their arms in the air imitating the motion.

He then threw a strike from the rubber, and the stadium erupted. Watching from owner George Steinbrenner’s box, Karl Rove thought, It’s like being at a Nazi rally."

http://www.drudgereport.com/wood.htm

If Turd Blossom Rove can compare Bush to Hitler why shouldn't others? Of course, Rove was making a favorable comparison.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. If ONLY the DEMS would respond with THIS when taken to task!

Geebus..don't their staffs have this info available for rebuttal???

[snippy]

58. I sometimes wonder whether they have any staff.

The RNC has worked hard in the last 20 years or so to make sure that the republican party defined the democratic party in the minds of as many voters as possible. The RNC spends more time and money defining democrats than democrats do. Democratic candidates and the democratic party have allowed that to occur. That is a huge mistake.

[Individualist]

56. Reality check!

You don't tell me what to say or think.

[waylon]

69. Please, assert yourself, dont be shy

Share with the group!

And thank you for making this personal, that is part of the problem. Too many people are taking this too personally and acting on their own behalf rather than what is good for everyone.

Does anyone see where Im going with this?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. Yes but I simply think you are panicking over something not of that much

import and conducting the same FEARMONGERING you accuse others of.

[waylon]

82. maybe fearmongering but it was intended to be cautionary

not striking fear in anyone, just trying to discuss tactics

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. OK read my other posts in this thread for another perspective

[Individualist]

77. You made this personal

when you titled your post "OK, this is the last Nazi reference I want to see, today"! If you don't want to see the references, I suggest you use the hide thread option. The Bush/Nazi comparison is accurate, and we're not going to stop talking about it. And yes, I see exactly where you're going; I'm not at all fooled by your talking points.

[waylon]

87. my talking points?

oh please, tell me what talking points you are referring to and how Im trying to "fool" you. Why dont you just call me an RNC operative working undercover for the Nazi party in attempt to overthrow DU!!!

Please, if you dont have anything to say just stop typing.

[Individualist]

96. "just stop typing"???

I'd tell you what you can do with that suggestion, but you're trying to goad me into breaking DU rules; rather than waste any more time on you, I'm putting you on ignore.

[Z-axis]

79. Take a lesson from the opposition

The first and best thing the Republicans learned how to do on their long road back was to own the language, redefine its terms and snatch it from anyone who wanted to use it for their own reasons.

I can't buy into caving into the party that gave us 'compassionate conservative' or 'pro-life' deciding if the */Hitler comparison is legit. I also understand that some from the Jewish community have declared that somehow the comparison trivializes their experience in the Holocaust. They will need to be educated that the comparison puts front and center one of the most serious matters to be raised about the Holocaust and its construction.

When I was a kid, WWII had just ended. The magnitude of the horror that was Nazi Germany was just beginning to sink in and I asked my mother, What did all that stuff in Germany mean? She took one long look at me (I suppose appraising if I was quite ready for the news) and then said, I don't ever want you to forget this. What it means is that everything that has happened in Germany, all the killing and brutality and horror was carried out or allowed by otherwise very good people. Don't you ever forget, she said, it can happen here.

Bush is not Hitler. However, there are policies eminating from the office and practices of the man who, no matter how otherwise 'good' he might be, are showing the edges of that truth I was taught so long ago.

The Justice Dept. is now considering the possibility of applying the Patriot Act to indict as terrorists members of the AIM movement for their actions at Pine Ridge, 30 years ago! The Patriot Act imposes no statute of limitations on prosecutors and serves as a perfect excuse to extend the reach of police into areas that weren't even contemplated at that time. The 3-strikes law has been used to obtain life-sentences for ex-felons guilty of nothing more than petty theft (stealing a pizza, in one case). The Rico Statute is getting tested on everything from environmental protests to a couple of crack dealers on a street corner.

Everytime I hear the police pushing the envelope on some statute they lobbied to get and swore was only for the limited purpose of a very narrow crime category, I get the jitters and recall what I was told to never forget. When I observe the Justice dept. feeling for a get-around for some inconvenient constitutional obstacle to a prosecution, I think of otherwise 'good people'. When I hear the a
current Administration slip so easily through a series of justifications for bombing the shit out of someplace 'out there' -- from immediate danger to WMDs to premptive strike to well, uhm, he's a tyrant and we need a "Regime" change, I am reminded of just how easy it is to test out a few nouns, find a term accepted by 'good people' and permit It to happen here.

There are legitimate comparisons to be made Between Hitler & Bush. More so as we begin to enter the era of a perpetual state of terrorism and the exigencies of war by redefinition of our common language. I don't see handing the matter of terms, dictionaries and references over to those who are dangerously close to making it happen here (even if well-intentioned themselves). If we have comparisons to make and history to recall, then we need to do so and stand behind our indictments. To do otherwise is to join those who would also let it happen here.

z-axis

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. AWESOME INCREDIBLE POST!!!

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Karenina]

91. KUDOS!!!

Welcome to DU, z-axis!!! :toast:

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Z-axis]

119. No, what I actually wrote was:

"some from the Jewish community have declared that somehow the comparison trivializes their experience in the Holocaust"

I did not write that "Jews say"

which means "they" refers to those individuals; not to your "Jews" in general.


And, I went on to specify what it was I thought 'they'(those individuals) needed to be educated about:

"They will need to be educated that the comparison puts front and center one of the most serious matters to be raised about the Holocaust and its construction."

And, I explained why I think that is a legitimate and serious comparison: ie. I accepted the responsibility of educating & gave examples as well!

Beyond that: If you were a Jew (or a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Pagan, or an Athiest for that matter) and told me to "fuck off" based on your absurdly rude and inaccurate reading of what I wrote, I would have to respond:

My ideas are my moral standing; not my religous affiliation nor my age.

beyond that - you have no way of knowing whether I am Jewish or not.

beyond that - my indication that I was a "kid" just post-war, might inform you that I am a little along in years. I can tell you that we 'elders' don't lecture each other at all. We just trade ideas and opinions. Sometime we kvetch (mostly about rhumatism or hernias). In the process, we educate.

beyond that - I specifically stated that I did not think Bush was Hitler; i.e. Bush=Hitler. It is not, in any event, relevant to my remarks.

beyond that, which side does "our side" refer to? All that is apparent from your numerous mistakes and misquotes is that a reading impairment is somehow involved.

And now that that part is done let me be a little more useful:

Its clear your intent was to protect someone/some group. That's a worthwhile impulse, nurture it. But, its useless if you don't read and get it right. Take time to see who is on your side and who is not. Did you learn nothing from my words about the most significant and urgent message of the Holocaust, to Jew and Gentile alike? IT CAN HAPPEN HERE. Do you understand the personal, cultural and historical importance that lesson holds for everyone? IT CAN HAPPEN HERE. I first heard that phrase used within the Jewish community shortly after the end of the war and watched it become the most important single lesson to arise from the anguish of Auschwitz and Bergen-belsen and Warsaw. It can happen here. Please, don't forget it.

Let me recommend you read some Elie Wiesel. Perhaps it will open your eyes.

[takebackthewh]

122. Wiesel

>>Let me recommend you read some Elie Wiesel. Perhaps it will open your eyes.<<

Already have.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

123. My family is Jewish and basically agrees with his perspective

[Rex]

88. Looks like the ads worked

nt

[TruthIsAll]

100. Read up on your History of the Third Reich...

you should already be quite familar with the history of the Bush Reich.

This comparison can only help us because...it is TRUE.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

102. Reichstag Burning : World Trade Center Attack

Enabling Act : Patriot Act I & II
The Enemy is Communism : The Enemy is Terrorism (and Liberalism, just ask Coulter)
Gee. Bush is in no way like Hitler.
Someone said yesterday that the problem with the General Public is that they think of Hitler and they think of WWII. They think of Auschwitz. They think of the Holocaust. Few of them remember the eight years before WWII and what happened there. It didn't happen instantly.
Bring out the parallels. Listen to the Germans today, who know something about Nazis. It's more than Prescott Bush's business ties to the Nazi party.
Bring out the parallels, and people will start to notice.
And a few of them will say "you know, that's frighteningly similar."

[Catherine Vincent]

111. If you don't want to see any references to Nazis then be a wuss

and use your ignore button. Fuck the republicans. What goes around comes around.

[oegthe]

112. ha ha ha

what a laugh!

this reminds me of the repukes after the presidential selection saying the democrats should be nice & quiet because the public is tired of witch-hunts

[freespirit2000]

118. Relative to...

Al Sharptone, he is a Nazi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. Wow..guess your spirit really IS free now :-)

[leesa]

124. Isn't the point to stop a genocidal maniac BEFORE he does any more

killing? It's about survival, not politics. The Jews you refer to in Florida should ESPECIALLY be interested in the development of genocidal mania because they, like liberals and intellectuals are eventually rounded up for slaughter if things are allowed to progress.