Wellstone told war vets Cheney threatened him about IWR

[librechik]

snip
"At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn., days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota."

Wellstone cast his vote for his conscience and against the Iraq measure, the lone Democrat involved in a tough 2002 election campaign to do so. And a few weeks later on Oct. 25, as he appeared to be winning his re-election bid, Wellstone, his wife, Sheila, his daughter, Marcia Markuson, three campaign staffers, and two pilots died in a plane crash in Minnesota.

Talk about "severe ramifications."

snip

read more here:
http://www.liberalslant.com/jt123003.htm

<pulling on asbestos cloak>

[RBHam]

1. Bush Sr. asked....

"Who is that little prick?"

Guess he found out.

[MoonAndSun]

2. I will always believe that the BFEE had something to do with

this "accident". It doesn't matter who investigates or what the conclusions are, Paul Wellstone died because he refused to lay down and let bush* and has evil henchmen walk all over him about Iraq. And he paid for it with his life, along with the other people who died with him.

[xchrom]

3. wellstone was murdered

by bushco.
now we have a confession.

[stinkeefresh]

4. I don't know about the rest of you...

but that event is what pulled me into online politics. He was murdered, just like Carnahan the election previous. Question is, who will they target this election?

[tom_paine]

14. I don't think they will be audacious enough to go for three in a row...

Democratic retirements and a Sovietized Media will see too that.

And sadly, the likelihood is that our own Party will help them, as they continually fail to relize just what they are up against.

Of course, the Busheviks have been bold to the point of recklessness, and have gotten scot free away from it every single time. Dozens of scandals, any one of which would have terminated Clinton, have silently slipped down the memory hole with out a peep.

Perhaps not the Plame case, but the Busheviks had six months to scrub the evidence. Fitzgerald was turned loose, but the Busheviks know they are safe (which is why they waited 6 months to turn him loose).

I only know that in Orwellian Imperial Amerika, such a thing has to be seen to be believed, and not a second before...

So, the bottom line is that I don't think they would do it (or pass some valuable security information to the Colombians or others so that they could do it), as people would REALLY begin to suspect something, even with Pravda spinning and covering as fast as possible.

But they have been so almost utterly successful that they may have the ultimate hubris to just do it and dare anyone to do anything.

Finally, the Plame Leak may have forced them to pull back their hand just a bit, and may have saved some Democratic Congressperson's life in 2004 (in a battleground state trending Republikan where it would just oh-so-speed-things-up if the incumbent would just sort of "get out of the way").

Think about it.

[revcarol]

34. I think you're wrong, sad to say.

Bush wants a trifecta in everything.

[LiberalFighter]

46. No... He wants a slam dunk

[goforit]

49. We really hope this will not happen again.

O8)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. bush*/PNAC was responsable for Wellstone's death.......i have no doubts

[truthspeaker]

6. I have doubts

at this point it's a possibility in my mind, but I don't see any hard evidence to support it.

[BigDaddyLove]

7. Other than motive, I also see no evidence.....

to support Bush's (or Cheney's) involvement.

[Cocoa]

8. it seems pretty implausible

Many people voted against the war, going after Wellstone doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. He was the only senator standing for re-election

to have voted against the war.

His elimination would silence the sharpest critic in the Senate to White House foreign policy, and send a chill through the legislature, much as the anthrax mailings cowed Democratic members into supporting the Patriot Act. A Democratic Congressional representative, quoted in the above piece on Wellstone's death: "I don't think there's anyone on the Hill who doesn't suspect it (murder). It's too convenient, too coincidental, too damned obvious. My guess is that some of the less courageous members of the party are thinking about becoming Republicans right now." Wellstone was leading at the time of his death, and Republican control of the Senate hinged on a single seat.

His death was timely, just one day before his name would have stayed on the ballot posthumously, as did Mel Carnahan's, and also claimed his wife, who could have run in his place. Wellstone had already survived an assassination attempt in Colombia, as he was investigating the White House's drug policy. A bomb was discovered on the airstrip his plane was due to land on.

When you ask about what sense it makes, it's the sense of the thug.

[tom_paine]

15. Damn, that was astutely said, MinstrelBoy

Wellstone was the Democratic Senator likely with the most integrity and cleanest record. No easy task to give him the Gore Treatment.

Further, a fighter who didn't back down (even after the first unsuccessful assassination attempt) and who could have absolutely become President someday on his honesty, passion, and belief. Carrying the standard that Howard Dean is now carrying, I believe Wellstone, either in 2004 or 2008, as Dean is now, could have run for that office on the strength of his honest war opposition.

He possibly could have harnessed all the energy at DU and elsewhwre, and become it's national leader. Even though maqny of Wellstone's views were to the Left of me, I still felt that he was the only Senator who even remotely spoke for me. I;ll bet thousands, perhaps millions of people were coming to that conclusion. With the way the Freepers and Rethug analysts monitor Lefty Web Sites, you know it was noticed.

And you are correct about the Sense of a Thug. Gore and Lieberman and Dacshle and Gephardt and so many others (with the exception of Byrd) could not understand nor deal with the thuggishness of the Busheviks. I don't think it ever computed fully (Gore gets it now...too late) for these guys and that is why they seem so bewildered in this New Amerika and are getting outfoxed because they still play by the Old Rules from post-WWII America.

But I think Dean understands...at least partially. Bob Byrd understands, but is too old to do anything other than play Cicero (for which I am immensely grateful, don't get me wrong).

And so did Wellstone, or would have by now.

"They're sheep. Easily dispersed if we strike the shepherd."
--King Edward, in the movie "Braveheart", speaking about assassinating William Wallace

[Minstrel Boy]

16. And how dispiriting it is to strike down the leaders.

Wellstone was one. He was the leader in the Senate at the time of his death in opposing Bush's campaign of conquest.

Think of the Spring of 1968, and the rise - indeed, convergence - of America's two leading figures for peace and justice.

April, and Bam! - there goes Martin.
June, and Bam Bam! - there goes Bobby.

And the grassroot are confused, dispirited, hopeless, and dribble off into self-indulgence, nostalgia and chaos.

Assassination is a state tool. It eliminates leaders who threaten the order, and it breaks the spirit of those who would hope for better.

[tom_paine]

18. Undoubtedly. It has been so since the history began

There is no reason to think is has ever NOT been so, even in so-called "morally superior" societies, as the Old American Republic, somewhat (but not completely) was during the period of 1941-2000.

How about it? Any prominent Canadian politicians outrightly shot or murdered or Wellstoned indirectly or by proxies?

'Fess up.

[Minstrel Boy]

20. The only Canadian politician to have been assassinated

was Member of Parliament D'Arcy McGee, in 1868. Shot by a Fenian sympathizer. It's unlike me, I know, to accept the official story, but I'm not about to open the books on this one.

Bad things happen to good politicians the world over. Sometimes by chance, sometimes design. But if they happened anywhere else with the frequency that they happen in the US, Americans might have cause to think that country was not a healthy democracy.

[RandomKoolzip]

51. The guy in my sig pic is Fred Hampton.

Murdered by Nixon's thugs with the help of the Daley Machine IN HIS SLEEP.

Do a google search...this guy was a threat, so they took him out.

IMHO, NOT to draw an unpleasant conclusion from the number of suspicious deaths which have struck left-leaning figures since the MIC set up shop is to remain willfully naive about how this world operates.

Ever heard of a right winger dying an untimely death? Me neither.

[Loren645]

52. Exactly.

"It eliminates leaders who threaten the order, and it breaks the spirit of those who would hope for better."

Did Cheney really threaten Senator Wellstone?

[SharonAnn]

40. He also had a strong enough opponent to turn that Senate

seat to Republican hands. They badly needed to get rid of the Democratic majority in the Senate.

[Yupster]

28. Especially when Wellstone

was the most liberal senator in office. He was not a threat to beat Bush. In fact, he would have been Bush's dream opponent.

If Bush wanted to get someone who was a threat to him, then Gore would have made a good first person on the list.

But what do I know. I still think Jo DiMaggio offed JFK.

[MoonRiver]

31. They needed another Senate seat, and it was fairly close in MN

Did the state have electronic voting then? If not that might have been another way to steal one more seat.

[BackDoorMan]

41. This a fact of life...but it's hard for us peasants to accept because

it means we are just pawns, with no real control and helpless, so let's just say it never really happened until there's absolute proof. Well that will never happen, it long gone...

Sometimes one has to go with ones own feelings and inner absolutes, they try at every turn to discourage those feelings in us. Most of us have unknowingly done this and we have been programmed to abandon our own sense of the obvious…we are constantly fed...to just believe what we see and what we are told. Government, (we are speaking of true fascist here, not something else) would never do such things…as if these greedy disgusting people wouldn’t kill and create an invasion with innocent people killed and maimed, for profit and control.

These are ruthless, sick, power hungry, money hungry, cold, insensitive monsters we are talking about…nothing will stop them from their overwhelming need for power and greed. They truly believe they are different and better and deserving of it all. Undeniable elitist. And no one better get in their way.

Secretly killing the opposition has always been a means to silence the voices who speak out against the powerful and the ruling class of this country, as well as though out world history. New technologies and a cooperative corporate media simply make it easier to accomplish and more difficult to exposed.

Always QUESTION AUTHORITY (and their "official" line, because it's always bullshit!)

[BackDoorMan]

10. If you refuse to see the obvious...you'll NEVER be convinced.

Of course it was murder...(and they made sure Wellstone's wife was onboard, so she couldn't take Paul's seat like Mel Carnahan's wife did, when his plane mysteriously went down during his senate race against John Ashcroft.)

Paul Wellstone was the most hated and feared democrat in the country by Bush and the fascist.

Killing Wellstone assured the republican fascist control of the senate by a one vote majority...it's too obvious.

What kind of proof do you want? Bush coming out saying "yes, we blew up Wellstone's plane because he was the most liberal senator in the country"? Do you expect to see it on Fox or CNN...Bush's federal FAA doing the investigation?

Are you saying the CIA which is supported and run to protect American corporate interest (i.e. OIL and world domination) DON'T have the means after sixty years and trillions of dollars for secret research and today’s technology, don't have the means to push a button and get rid of anyone they choose with no trace, of course they do...are they going to tell you or me about it...where, again, on Fox or CNN?

Go with your feelings, your gut feelings, it's all so neat and tidy...there is no doubt...the killings of JFK, MLK, RFK, Carnahan, even JFK jr and dozens of others, again we'll never hear the truth...the CIA, FBI and the like do not work for or care about liberals and their concerns...they are all about US corporate world control and these pesky democrats who get in the way...good-bye and good riddance!

[BigDaddyLove]

9. Where did the quote come from?

The link doesn't supply a source.

Why haven't we heard about this before? If such a threat was made you'd think that it would have made public sooner than this.

[BackDoorMan]

11. What major "news" organization would report it?

The republican owned and operated corporate media? They know people will accept ANYTHING they tell them and the sheep will only have "DOUBTS"...that's good enough for them. "Mission accomplished."

Shit, they won't report on anything that might harm Bush and their own greedy interest.

[redqueen]

12. Thanks

Seems obvious to me.

Thanks for pointing it out.

[BigDaddyLove]

21. Just because an article was written outside of...........

the 'Republican controlled Media', it must be taken as the truth?

Funny, when someone suggests something that doesn't jive with the accepted and obvious 'truths', they are expected to have very detailed references, but when something is posted that feeds the conspiracy beast regarding the (supposed) murder of Paul Wellstone, no further questions are asked.

For all any of us know, that 'quote' could have been made up; and probably was.

What I also find interesting is the 'selective conspiracy theory' choices people make. It appears to be completely possible (and welcome), to believe that Wellstone was murdered and that the murder is being covered up, and yet to be dismissive toward the myriad of other possible conspiracies currently in vogue.

[MoonRiver]

24. Who do you love 'BigDaddy'?

:smoke:

[BigDaddyLove]

26. My wife mostly............

Is your question a thinly veiled attempt to verify my allegiance to the Democratic Party?

In other words, why do you ask?

[tom_paine]

17. In the Old America, you may have been right, BigDaddyLove

But the world changed on 9-11, did it not? Though to be quite honest, I think the change was actually on 12-12-2000.

Ah, I remember...it wasn't so long ago, that I would have said something exactly like that.

But that was before I started paying attention, and of coure before the Busheviks began wielding power so nakedly. Before I saw with my own eyes the supression of scandal after scandal, saw Gary Condit roasted 24/7 while a young woman found dead in a Republican Congessman's office and a shady coroner fired from Missouri for falsifying death records who lied and witheld the information that Lori Klausitis had a bruise on her head for 3 weeks and go utterly unreported in the Mainstream Media (at the same time they were flogging Condit daily with no body, no evidence, no crooked coroner...)

Had I not been reading a few Indy Media sources and seen with my own eyes the story unfold from a tiny NW Floida newspaper and nowhere else, I would have never seen it nor heard about it.

But everyone knows who Gary Condit is, eh?

And this is but one tiny refutation of dozens I could list if I cared to sit down and think about it.

Go ahead. Google "Lori Klausutis" and see what you can find. Most particularly, look for the NW Pensacola Journal, I believe, as it is the only mainstream news source to cover the story.

Think. Wake up. This is not your Father's America, that post--WWII egalitarian Republic.

As to Wellstone, think what you like because we'll never know. But you simply CANNOT use that excuse anymore.

Amerika's Mainstream Media has gone from being the envy of the world and now is on it's way to become the world's laughingstock.

[BigDaddyLove]

22. Tom Paine............

I greatly respect your voice on DU, but I resent being told to "think", or to "wake up".

I do think and I am wide awake, I just don't share the automatic knee-jerk reaction that many apparently have when something bad happens.

Sometimes awful things happen in this world independent of the Bush family; and until proven otherwise, the death of Paul Wellstone in my mind is one of those things.

[Yupster]

30. Next thing

someone will start a thread claiming Bush was responsible for the earthquake in Iran.

[prariedogging]

42. He was!

Indirectly of course. But he was. The CIA leaked a study warning of possible earthquakes if too many big bombs were used in Iraq. Bush ignored this report. So I blame him. At least partially.

[tom_paine]

59. Ridiculous

n/t

[tom_paine]

58. Apologies, BigDaddyLove

You are right. I was out of line.

Let us simply agree to disagree on this one. You are certainly correct that every bad thing that happens is not a result, directly or indirectly, of the Busheviks.

But my sense of history and human nature suggests that Wellstone was assassinated, just as it tells me it was no coincidence that all 6 or 7 people who could have threatened the Imperial Succession of Tiberius in Rome circa 20 AD either died or were banished.

Even though there is no hard evidence.

At any rate, I apologize for directing those comments towards you.

[MoonRiver]

32. Just curious about your name.

:hi: Happy New Year!

WHOOPS! Meant to reply to #26.

[BigDaddyLove]

44. Oh, sorry................

there's just something about conspiracy threads that make me feel funny.


Happy New Year to you too!!!!!!!!!!!!

:toast:

[Eric J in MN]

36. I'd like a source of that quote as well.

Did anyone, anywhere, record Wellstone saying that he was threatened by Cheney at the time?

Is there anyone with a name who says he heard that now?

[Ficus]

19. still not sure what to think

I wouldn't be too surprised.

[WillyT]

23. And There It Is Ficus !!!

And BidDaddy, I hear what you are saying, but I think that the sad state of affairs is, that with this current crop of facists in power, although we may never know for sure what happened to Wellstone's plane, it being a murder WOULD NOT SUPRISE ME.

:shrug:

[BigDaddyLove]

25. I completely understand what you are saying.............

and if it's one day actually proven that Bush was somehow involved with the plane going down, I too will not be completely surprised, given how much damage they've done; I just refuse to think that when it rains on my picnic, somehow Bush is responsible.

[WillyT]

27. Oh Man, You Haven't Heard Of The BFEE Cloud Seeders, LOL ???

Have a GREAT NEW YEAR, BDL!!!

:hi:

[BigDaddyLove]

29. You too Willy.....

:party:

[gristy]

35. You mean the BFEE, not Bush personally, right?

I mean, Bush does NOT run this show. My guess is there are many, many operatives out there. Some are in the BFEE, and some are only loosely and remotely connected to it. But they all understand their mission and objectives. Nobody, least of all Bush, had to tell anybody to take out Wellstone. Someone may have just up and did it.

[librechik]

55. it's not a conspiracy

it's a movement. Nobody is in charge, exactly, they just all believe approximately the same things so their decisions seem coordinated. They don't actually make things happen, events generate spontaneously from a combination of intent and, shall we say, synchronous happenstance.

Except sometimes they do do something.

BTW this article is the first to mention that EMP waves effect electronics rather than electrical systems, which explains why the engine was still revolving when it hit the ground. Only the instruments and controls would be effected with such an attack.

[juajen]

33. Sometimes, you just have to go with your instincts

The very first thing I said to my husband when I heard about the plane going down, was "Oh my God, they've killed Wellstone!"

After all is said and done, I believe my first instinct is the correct one. BTW, I was around for all the other assassinations. My instincts on all of those were also, in my book, accurate. Part of that time, I voted republican. All of those convenient killings turned me into a democrat for life, even though I have never officially changed my party affiliation. It isn't necessary in LA anyway, so I don't. I still get all sorts of literature from the pugs so I can see what they are doing, and I love telling them I'm voting democrat when they call me. Got a recorded call from Bush asking me to vote for Bobby Jindal. That was a real laugh.

As far as I'm concerned, there are just too damned many convenient deaths with that bunch. Coincidence my ass! Common sense will serve if you let it.

[latebloomer]

43. That was my first thought too

"They killed him!"

[tom_paine]

60. Me, too.

[librechik]

45. me too n/t

[plaguepuppy]

54. Awfully convenient for certain parties

Luck does seem to smile on this bunch more than most - and frowns severely at their enemies:

http://www.bushbodycount.com/voices/thelist.php

[Loren645]

57. Same here, in fact it's a direct quote.

I don't understand why so many people demand hard
proof of shady murders...

Um, they tend to be off the record.

[Eric J in MN]

37. The author doesn't even provide a date when Wellstone supposedly said that

No date.

No name of anyone who heard Wellstone said it.

Just a declaration that Wellstone said it.

[aeon flux]

38. Did Wellstone have a death wish?

The BFEE has a reputaition for political assassination. Wellstone was well aware of this. Cheney himself has just made a thinly-veiled death threat to his face, and yet Wellstone still chooses to fly around in small aircraft? How can anyone be so stupid?

-----------

"You can criticize me, but don't criticize my children and don't criticize my daughters-in-law and don't criticize my husband, or you're dead."

- Barbara Bush (live interview on Larry King).

[Piperay]

39. It was no "accident" Wellstone

was murdered by the bushies, I have no doubts about that!

[TrogL]

47. OK. How?

Discuss in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=972753

[dflprincess]

48. Wellstone was a thorn in the Bush* administration's side

He was the only senator up for reelection who voted against the IWR. After doing that, he came up in the polls, and was ahead of Coleman beyond what the margin of error would be. Had he lived, he may well have become the very vocal leader of the opposition - whether he was reelected or not. Paul really connected with people, he told the truth and may have been seen as a threat for 2004.

The systematic smearing of the pilots began (at least in the local papers) once it became clear the weather excuse wouldn't work. Buried in one of these articles was the following paragraph. This was published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune Feb 23, 2003

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3668854.html
<snip>
Steve Thornton, the air traffic controller who handled the first weather briefing and listened to a recording of the second briefing after the crash, told investigators he was concerned that someone was putting pressure on the pilot of Wellstone's plane to make the flight. Thornton told investigators he believed the pilot was "more stressed and apprehensive about the flight" during the second briefing, which was given by another controller.
<end snip>

Both Paul and Sheila were nervous fliers, they would not have been the ones putting pressure on the pilot.

[librechik]

56. thanks for the link, princess

"more "unknown" info, but with a better source than the article I posted.

[xxqqqzme]

50. Wellstone was the only

campaign ever 2 receive a contribution from me (B4 Dean) and I live in California!

[Loren645]

53. I donated too.

And I don't live in Minnesota.

[tom_paine]

61. The bottom line is that there is no corroboration of this quote

For whatever reason, that is the case.

As such, this quote cannot be put into the "likely to have been said" column.

But I still believe Wellstone was assassinated...no matter whether this in particular was said or not.

[markus]

62. Remember: Ted Kennedy almost boarded that plane with him

eom

[name not needed]

63. PNAC would have loved that

Murdering a Kennedy