Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

for those who still think that depleted uranium is harmless . . .

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 01:59 PM
Original message
for those who still think that depleted uranium is harmless . . .
this site offers a compendium of current and recent developments, published research, conference proceedings, reports on the topic. A good resource to counter arguments that DU (the substance, not the website) isn't harmful to those who come in contact with it.

Uranium Medical Research Centre
http://www.umrc.net/index.asp
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. thanks for this link
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nomad559 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Flash Movie
Have you seen this depleted uranium Flash Movie Depleted Uranium

You can download It to your harddrive using This link

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Lasso of Truth

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChemEng Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not a credible website when they reference Al-Jazeera....
Let me know when you have a reference from a reputable journal such as the New England Journal of Medicine..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I have to agree
While there is some good info there, it's not going to be convincing to the majority of the American people.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. It looks like another anti-nuclear group
that came up with the answers ahead of time. As someone else said here, I do not put much faith in groups that use Al-Jazeera as a source.
A lot of the claims made about Depleted Uranium are ludicrously false---like it is the sole cause of gulf war disease, responsible for birth defects and cancer rates in areas of iraq where enormous amounts of mustard agents were used during the 80s and stored during the Gulf war (mustard agents will cause birth defects, mutations and all kinds of cancers and were used far more in Southern iraq than depleted uranium)

There is no doubt depleted uranium is toxic and potentially dangerous. I also have no doubt that the danger is not nearly as real as some groups want to make you think. Ramsey clark's IAC puts out ridiculous propaganda about it, but with very little fact. (for example they describe an area of kurdistan where plants will not grow---aside from the fact that there was no depleted uranium used in Kurdistan)

By the way, if you go into a one square mile field, there is approx 4 tons of natural, non depleted, uranium in the top square foot of topsoil. That gives off as much radiation as almost 6 tons of Depleted Uranium. yet, depleted uranium radiation does not even penetrate the skin---it is too weak.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Correct - it is basically as toxic as lead
Since it basically is lead
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yup!
That is why EOD personnel wear protective clothing and SCBA when working with DU Ordnance.

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Your're right, you're wrong, and you could do some more research.
Hi there, how are you doing? Hope your holidays are going well

Let me fill you in about DU. I would link to some sources, but the sources I know best are not the kind put on the web. Mainly IATA, NRC, CFR, DOE and other such alphabet entities. You see, I work at a nuclear reactor, a small reasearch reactor, we mainly deal with cancer treatments and archeological samples.

I deal with DU on a daily basis, and you are correct in your assertion that DU gives emits such a small amout of radiation that it cannot even penetrate the skin. In fact DU is used as shielding for some of the more radioactive isotopes. It is primarily an Alpha wave emitter, though DU does emit a minute amount of Betas also.

However there are a couple of leathal drawbacks to DU's use in a military capacity. When a shell that is tipped with DU strikes it's target, the DU heats up drastically and starts burning off much like a sparkler. Combines this with the explosion behind it and you wind up with a DU dust. It blows around, is inhaled or ingested and that's when problems arise.

DU, like other heavy metals, is quite toxic. Having dropped several thousand tons of DU in Iraq over the past twelve years, there is a great deal of DU dust floating around. With this fine DU dust virtually everywhere, a great many people are getting it inside their body. From the toxicity standpoint, it is similar to constantly dosing yourself with lead. No immediate symptoms, but as dosages accumulate, deadly symptoms appear. It attacks the nervous system especially. Also like lead, no matter how you get the DU inside you, it takes a long time to excrete it. And if you live or travel through the midst of DU, you are constantly taking more onboard.

The other problem with DU is the fact that however minutely, DU is radioactive. Although you are, for the most part, protected from DU's radiation by your skin, once DU gets inside your body, you have no such protection. And since most DU in Iraq has been rendered into a talc like dust, DU can get trapped in the most delicate corners of the body, like the aevoli. Thus the Alpha and Beta waves can do their work, causing cancers, killing cells, shuting down entire parts of the human body. Your lungs could go to hell, or you colon. Strange and varied symptoms can appear, depending where the DU lodged in your body. Hell, even the best medical minds don't know the entire catalog of DU symtoms, being that it is a relatively recent addition to mankinds' arsenal of attrocities.

So don't write off DU as propaganda or BS. It is real, and it kills. Slowly, agonizingly, it kills. It's use in war should be banned, because with a half life of billions of years, it is the gift that keeps on giving. It kills our soldiers and innocent Iraqis, both now and for generations to come. It really is a WMD, an insideous, slow motion one that has no regard for who it kills. You could probably grow a crop in the stuff, but would you really wish to eat the plants? Or any animal that ate the plants? I wouldn't reccomend it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanx, MadHound.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Just doing my part, contributing to the tribal knowledge base
But it does get tough sometimes at work when somebody starts talking about DU, especially after I've been posting at lunch;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Half-life of billions of years?
Probably not. The age of the earth is just under 5 billion years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Half Life
750,000,000 years...Plenty long enough. Likely out last Humans..Pretty scary huh?

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yes, you read that right
DU is essentially burned out Uranium 238(either artificially burned out through enrichment processes, the most common, or naturally, ie it has been laying around since the beginning of time, fairly rare, not still feasible). As such what is left still emits at the rate of Uranium, hence it still has Uranium 238's half life of aprox. 4.2 billion years. The shortest Uranium half life is Uranium 235(enriched, weapons grade) weighing in at aprox. 250,000 years.

Most of your naturally occuring radioactive heavy metals come in with their half lifes at the millions and billions. Hell, even your enriched heavies come in at the hundreds of thousands. It is only when you get to your artificially activated light metals to you get into your shorter half lifes, years, months, days, hours. That is the end of the spectrum that I deal with. Can't have those cancer treatments over radiating patients.

Just because the age of the Earth is in the billions doesn't mean that Uranium's age also can't rank up there. Remember, the Solar system formed out of an amorphous blob of matter. Uranium, iron, lead, aluminum, that and more were part of that blob.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. ooops
I cited U 234

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. thank you
quite an eye opening post. Some people are so quick to write off DU concerns as bad science. So are the symptoms you describe consistent with "Gulf War syndrome'? Sounds like it to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Yes, but Zuni was also correct
DU is just one of a malestrom of toxins that have been unleashed in Iraq in the past twenty five years. Hell, we're using missles and rockets whose very fuel is toxic, much less their exhaust.

But I think that DU is contributing a great deal to the misery, illness and death. So much so that it musn't be used again. The symptoms are there, the evidence is present. DU is present and working it's deadly way through the population
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChemEng Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Please note that with a "half-life of billions of years",
that means the rate of decay is soooooo sloooow, that it is probably as dangerous as the brick on your home (yes, brick is also radioactive). In other words, an element with a half-life of days, or weeks, or years, is much much more dangerous than one with a very long half-life. You'll get more radiation from flying in an airplane, or from dental x-rays.

I'm not sure about your DU "dust" claim as well. DU is used to penetrate armor, primarily because of its density. I'm not sure why it would dust, but would love to hear about that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well, I've never stressed it out personally
But from my research and conversations with others it is my understanding that under impact stresses, heat and friction DU acts similar to flint, it "sparks" off, except in large quantities. From that reaction you are left with a dust. And of course there are the reactions due to the explosive forces unleashed milliseconds after DU strikes the target. All in all there isn't much left in a recognizable, solid form.

And yes, DU does emit quite slowly, your exposure is aprox. 0.1 mR at three feet from source. A fair amount higher than a brick(which may or may not be radioactive, depending upon it's makeup). That is certainly not a lethal dose nor even a health threat if you are standing next to it(though I wouldn't recommend cuddling up with a piece night after night). Human skin does a wonderful job of blocking out all sorts of nasty shit.

However, as I stated earlier, the danger is when you inhale or ingest the powdered DU. A particle will go and lodge itself in some nook or cranny of your body and proceed to destroy it. It is the same principle that is behind cancer treatments, insert a source and let it kill the surrounding tissue. Except that DU is not targeted for cancerous tissue, it gets in the body and destroys any tissue that it comes into contact. While the dose is less, the time factor is much greater, so thus an equal or greater amount of damage can be done.

Remember here, we're not talking about skin. Your skin is designed to be a protective barrier, it's strong and tough, able to withstand a lot of punishment. But the cells in your body aren't designed for protection. Your lung tissue is actually quite delicate, in some places the lung tissue is only one cell thick. Radiation can really do damage here, even in small quantities.

All in all, this is a weapon the world can do without. It is a slow motion WMD, a gift that will keep on killing for generations. It needs to be banned and shunned by the US and the world. Otherwise we will wind up with vast areas of our world that will be uninhabitable. Iraq is heading this direction, and innocent Iraqi citizens, along with our soldiers are the ones paying the price.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. since you're an expert on depleted uranium
perhaps you could supply answers to the following questions:

1. assuming all the DU used in weapons was converted to microscopic dust and dispersed into the environment, how does this level compare to the background levels of uranium?

2. what is the size of an inhaled DU particle, and how much cellular damage can the particle do each day?

3. how does the amount of cellular damage caused by the DU particle compare to the levels of similar (i.e., oxidative) damage that occurs as a result of natural metabolism?

4. how does the amount of cellular damage caused by the DU particle compare to the ability of a cell to repair this damage?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'll give it a go
1. Considering that we are talking about Iraq, where there is little or no natural uranium to be found, the level of DU radiation is quite significant. Whether or not the entire amount of DU used is converted to dust isn't an issue, since we already know that a large portion is, and no matter what it's form, DU emits at the same rate. We're talking aprox 0.1 mR at a distance of three feet. Not enough to cause harm if it is on the outside of the body. Background radiation in is an order of magnitude lower, being measured in the micro Rems as opposed to milli Rems(mR). Even in areas that have naturally occuring uranium, the background radiation is signigicantly lower, being as that it is shielded from the surface by the earth itself.

2. Size of such particles is measured in microns, small enough to get into the tender and out of the way spots inside your body. While I don't know the specific rates of damage, I do know that if a DU particle gets into an aveola sac(the grape-like clusters the are in your lungs, where the O2-CO2 exchange takes place with your bloodstream) it can destroy that cluster within a matter of weeks. Hence the strange flu/pneumonia like symptoms exhibited initially by those contaminated with it.

3. The rate of damage is much greater than that of the natural oxidation process. How many bodily structures break down within weeks of oxidation?

4. Since an irradiated cell is likely to be unable to divide due to irradiation damage, it hampers the bodies healing mechanisms a great deal. This is the same principle which operates radioactive cancer treatments. An active isotope is inserted next to a cancerous target, thus destroying the cancerous cells. The cancerous cells are unable to replicate, hence the cancer is destroyed. Of course the trick is to activate those elements that have a short half life, otherwise the radioactive cure would be worse than the disease, killing many more cells than just the cancerous ones. Unfortunately DU has a half life measured in the billions of years, thus it doesn't quietly fade away. That and the fact that it is impossilbe to effectively decon a person who has been internally contaminated makes for a deadly but slow, agonizing killer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. thanks for your answers
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 02:04 PM by treepig
but some references to back up your claims would be nice. from what i've seen and heard, reality is considerably different.

point #1 - weapons use of DU barely changes environment levels of DU (which is essentially "natural uranium"):

there were 320 tons (290,560 kg) of depleted uranium used in the first gulf war. let’s assume that all of it was aerosolized and deposited into the environment. now let’s analyze the environmental effects compared to how much uranium was already there.

from http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm we learn that a typical square mile of land area contains 2,200 kg of uranium in the uppermost 1 foot of soil (where it is most likely to be disturbed by a passing tank, for example, and have the opportunity to interact with a human). considering that iraq covers 168,000 sq. mi., if the depleted uranium used in weapons was even dispersed, there would be an additional 1.73 kg added to the natural burden of uranium (per square mile). of course, the battles were not fought over all the country, if we assume that the depleted uranium was localized to 10% of the country, that means an additional 17.3 kg/sq.mi., or if the fighting was extremely localized to only 1% of the country (and the depleted uranium dust was somehow similarly localized), that means there’d be an additional 173 kg/sq.mi.

converting to ppm data, we see:

natural levels of uranium: 1.764 ppm
w/weapons DU spread over all of iraq: 1.766 ppm
w/weapons DU localized to 10% of iraq: 1.778 ppm
w/weapons DU localized to 1% of iraq: 1.903 ppm

ok, we see that the use of DU weapons incurs a very small, but nevertheless measurable, increase in uranium levels in the environment. but the key question is, is the increase large enough to cause health problems?

from this map:



we see that the environmental levels of naturally-occurring uranium in the united states varies much more than happened upon use of all those depleted uranium weapons. in fact, the use of DU-containing weapons releases so little uranium as to be hard pressed to cause a color gradiation shift in the above map – note that certain parts of the country have 10 times more environmental uranium (such as in the southwest) than others (such as central florida) but cancer rates show no correlation – clearly the increased long-term environmental load of DU in iraq due to weapons use is minimal.

point #2 - it is possible to calculate approximately how much radiation is produced by a DU particle:

addressing the question “how much radiation does an inhaled DU particle produce?”

to answer this question, we consider that the size of depleted uranium aerosolized particles is 2.5 microns:

from http://www.gavagai.pl/nato/depleted.htm

and then calculate the number of uranium atoms present in the particle by using the relationship:

volume = 4/3(pi)r3 ;

one particle has therefore has:

a volume of 8.18 x 10e-18 m3 or 8.18 x 10e-15 L3 or 8.18 x 10e-12 cm3
a mass of (8.18 x 10e-12 cm3) x (17.9 g/cm3) = 1.46 x 10e-10 g

(based on a density of 17.9 g/cm3)

Now, to calculate the number of atoms in one particle:

(1.46 x 10e-10 g) x (1 mole/238 g) x (6.02 x 10e23 molecules/mole) = 3.7 x 10e11 atoms

now let’s calculate how many alpha particles are released each day:

(3.7x 10e11 atoms/particle) / <(4.5 x 10e9 years/decay half-life) x (365 days/year) x (2*)> = 0.0282 decay events per particle per day

* factoring in half-life considerations

for comparison purposes, a similarly sized particle of plutonium would support ~320,00 decay events per day.


it should be noted that each radioactive decay event starting with DU starts a cascade of additional radioactive decay events (eventually leading to lead, which is stable):

http://www.ccnr.org/decay_U238.html

in all there are 14 subsequent decay events, but only the first two Th-234 to Pa-234 (1/2 life = 24.1 days) and Pa-234 to U-234 (1/2 life = 6.7 hours) would be expected to occur in the lifetime of the host and need to be considered. for simplicity’s sake, let’s assume these decay events happen simultaneously with the original U-238 to Th-234 alpha emission (note: this assumption increases the danger level, so it’s not like i’m trying to minimize risks).

ok, let’s summarize the decay events:

U-238 to Th-234: alpha emission @ 4.270 MeV
Th-234 to Pa-234: beta emission @ .273 MeV
Pa-234 to U-234: beta emission @ 2.197 MeV

total energy released is 6.740 MeV per decay event (energy levels are from http://www2.bnl.gov/ton/index.html ), and since (on average) 0.0282 decay events per day occur, that’s 0.190 MeV per day of high energy particles that a cell must deal with over the long term (note that MeV represents mega-electron volts, so 0.190 MeV is 190,000 eV).

point #3 - the rate of oxidative damage from a DU particle is much less than from natural metabolism:

now let’s turn to cellular damage. high energy ionizing radiation damages cells indirectly by ‘damaging’ water (the most common molecule in a cell; this process is described in detail at http://www.photobiology.com/educational/len/part2.htm ). basically what happens is that the high energy particle impacts water molecules, successively damaging them by creating reactive oxygen species such as hydroxyl radicals. each interaction reduces the energy of the high energy particle by about 47 eV. consequently the 190,000 eV per day calculated above translates into the generation of about 4,042 reactive oxygen species per day.

each of these reactive oxygen species has the potential to damage dna. but there are enzymes (superoxide dismutase, for example that actively scavenge reactive oxygen species specifically so that dna damage is avoided. furthermore, you may have been seduced by your trendy friends to take anti-oxidants as a dietary supplement – if so, they’re also going to be hanging around to intercept the potentially damaging reactive oxygen species before they can damage your dna). but let’s discount these factors in order to maximize the danger from the radiation. in this case, let’s assume that all reactive oxygen species will react with what cellular biomolecule they encounter first. considering that most cells are from 1 to 10% DNA by volume (the DNA stays the same, but the rest of the cell varies dramatically) that means at most 10% of the 4,042 reactive oxygen species will be able to damage dna. that’s ~400 sites of damage per day, but considering that a cell normally has to deal with 50,000 to 250,000 sites of damage per day (by repairing them - check out the work of bruce ames at UCBerkeley for verification of these numbers), the additional repair load is only between 0.2 and 1.0% (in reality, many of the damages would not occur because the damaging molecules would have been scavenged by the protective enzymes or anti-oxidants long they could damage anything).

point #4 - you propose some medically impossible events when you suggest that irradiation from DU harms cells. the information i provide above shows that there is no realistic cellular mechanism for the radiation of DU to harm cells. claiming that it does makes one look rather foolish and allows arguments against DU to be easily dismissed by someone who is scientifically literate - which is unfortunate because DU may actually be harmful, but due to it's chemical toxicity which is one-million fold higher than it's radiation
toxicity, (see J Inorg Biochem 2002 Jul 25;91(1):246-52
Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay. Miller AC, Stewart M, Brooks K, Shi L, Page N. for more information). it's kinda like claiming mr. george w. bush is evil because he's a child rapist - sure, he may be evil, but making this claim just makes one look like a mis-guided, and easily ignored, crank.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. just go to google and enter in Doug Rokke
All you ever wanted to know and not know about Depleted Uranium.

Just a sample:

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Gulf-War-Rokke6jan03.htm

Gulf War Legacy:
Maj. Doug Rokke is Hot
THOMAS P HEALY / InTheseTimes 6jan03
Also see: Text of Dr. Doug Rokke Speaking in Los Altos, CA 21apr03

Maj. Doug Rokke is “hot.” No, he’s not sweating. Nor is his physique the object of admiration. He’s “hot” because his body is contaminated by uranium—specifically, “depleted uranium” (DU), which was widely used in munitions during the Gulf War as well as in Bosnia. DU is also expected to be deployed in the event of military action in Iraq.


Doug Rokke, Ph.D.
Photo by Paul Goettlich

“I was excreting over 1,200 micrograms a day, and never even told me for two and a half years,” Rokke says. According to Army regulations, any uranium excretion over 250 micrograms a day warrants immediate medical care.

Rokke is a Vietnam and Gulf War combat veteran who has specialized in hazardous materials and emergency medicine for more than 20 years. During Operation Desert Storm, he was part of a team that established decontamination procedures and facilities for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Later, he was given the mandate to clean up depleted uranium contamination in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

But the exposure came at great cost. DU—or more specifically, the radioactive isotope uranium 238—is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment process used to create reactor fuel and bombs. It was first used in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. In the Gulf War, Rokke says, it was widely used for its effectiveness in penetrating armor and strengthening armor against penetration.

I had the opportunity to spend two hours with Mr. Rokke in Dallas at the Peace Mennonite Church, we videotaped his presentation and I will be happy to give it to anyone who wants it. Just PM me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC