Do we live in a Democracy?

[FDRrocks]

I ask some people this, and they say "Yeah, you do not live under the thumb of anything, you can do whatever you want, that isn't illegal."

For many decades now, in my view, our cherished two party system has not been meeting up to the expectations of a democracy.

de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. (from http://www.dictionary.com)f

Now, given the definition, we haven't been in a democracy for a long time. LONG TIME.

I think both parties do not work for the people. At all. To call the US a democracy is a farce.

What do you think? (Fascists need not apply)

[Selwynn]

1. No, we live in a Republic. :)

[Mis-an-thrope1111]

2. it was a republic

now its a full fledged empire


ever since shrub crossed the potomac and declared "alea iacta est"


as if he could pronounce that! haha

[FDRrocks]

4. I would argue it was long before that.

The empire, in my opinion, was established long before. The second we decided to conquer free parts of this continent (Indians) and parts of what is now Mexico.

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. And the Civil War was the defining moment of empire.

Coercive force and military subjugation to subdue unruly territories...classic imperialism. The US didn't enter the full-fledged empire phase until the annexation of Hawaii, Cuba and the Phillipines in the 1890's, though.

[K-W]

7. We are a republic with an empire.

something that really shouldnt happen, and shows why we definately arent a democracy.

[newyawker99]

51. Hi Mis-an-thrope1111!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[JohnLocke]

55. Welcome to DU, Mis-an-thrope1111!

You will enjoy your time here, I assure you.
:toast: :toast: :toast:

[FDRrocks]

3. A Democratic republic?

I only ask this b/c of how many people were out in the streets on Feb. 2003. All these people were proven right. They were more cautious than the president of the United States of America.

I'm only 20. Since I've been able to vote politics seem like a big puppet show to me. Christ on earth. I feel like I'm in crazy land.

[jonprt]

5. No, it is a republic

A true democracy would require every decision ever made to be voted on by every voter. a republic allows us to send a representative to speak for us. Although we don't always get everything we expect, we can vote for the person that mostly will do what we want.

[FDRrocks]

8. Welcome to DU

And I say... The politicians do not listen to us. They listen to money, that will get them elected. And, beyond that, the fullfill the promises they made to this massive amount of money, to get elected again.

I agree, if a Democracy existed in this country, the system would be totally reworked. It cannot flourish in our current system. Just look at the influence of the AFL-CIO versus Major Corporations.

[RandomUser]

12. It's a democratic republic

A republic and a democracy are not mutually exclusive. It's both.

A true democracy would require every decision ever made to be voted on by every voter.

No. That's a descriptin of direct democracy. What we have is a representative democracy. You may argue that one is a "true" democracy and the other one isn't. But they're both democracies.

a republic allows us to send a representative to speak for us.

We're a democracy and a republic. You've got people on the left saying America is suppose to be a democracy. And you've got people on the right saying America should be a republic. And they're shouting at each other and saying the other side is wrong. It's a moot point. A democracy and a republic are not mutually exclusive. We're both.

Of course, if we're turning into a totalitarian police state (we're still quite a ways from martial law, though we've gotten a bit closer), then all bets are off. But right now, we're a Democracy AND a Republic.

[FDRrocks]

13. It all falls under Democracy

de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.


Democracy is both the people running the government, or elected officials doing it.

re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
A nation that has such a political order.

Is it very fluid. But our country does not work for the people. It works for lobbyists.

[suigeneris]

18. I Agree, But...

There are some interesting aspects to our democratic republic, though.

There are many built-in ways in which the vote of one citizen does not have equal weight to that of another.

Since there are two senators from each state (Connecticut Compromise), citizens of small states have proportionally more weight for their votes than those of large states.

The formula for Electoral College votes is one for each member of Congress in both houses so if you have two senators and three representatives your Electoral College votes are five. Again, a presidential voter in a smaller state has more weight given his vote than that of a voter in a large state.

As an affirmative action supporter I often point to these two features and tell conservatives that they amount to AA for small states, systematically and officially favoring some individuals at the expense of others, and do they object? No one has countered the argument nor objected yet.

Represenatatives are apportioned to the states according to the decennial census and within the states by the legislature. Legislatures routinely juggle populations included within congressional districts (though this cannot be extreme) and over the course of ten years population shifts can make old apportionments quite out of date. In this manner, even within a state the weight of one citizen's vote for her representative can be quite different from that of another for his.

An anti-democratic feature of our system which is not dictated by the Constitution is the primary process we are seeing unfold at present. The early primary states have a hugely disproportionate effect on the process, often virtually destroying candidates based on their performance in one, two or a handful of states, before the country at large has a chance to weigh in. Personally, I resent this.

Finally, we are rarely interested in a purely democatic, equitable, one-man-one-vote process in elections. This election and always, both sides will be busy trying to disproportionately get their partisans to the polls while discouraging those of the other side.

I know I will be ;-)

I'm sure others can think of ways in which our democratic system is not equitable.

---

LIKE FATHER LIKE SON: ONE TERM ONLY

[RandomUser]

22. Democracies need not be equitable

Ancient Athens was one of the first examples of democracy. They kept slaves who couldn't vote. George Washington's America had slaves and the 3/5ths compromise. Women didn't get to vote until recently. And yet, no one would dispute those were democracies, even if not just or fair or perfect examples of democracy.

As a matter of fact, Socrates railed against mob rule and decried democracy.

Does that mean we shouldn't strive to be better than those democracies? Of course not. But it does mean that a system need not be perfect for it to be considered a democracy.

[arcos]

68. I didn't read your post before replying...

so please ignore #67. ;)

[0rganism]

24. Another term for your "republic" is "representative democracy"

In the broadest sense, "republic" refers to any non-monarchical body politic adhering to a constitution.

From dictionary.com,

re·pub·lic n.
1.a A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
1.b A nation that has such a political order.
2.a A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
2.b A nation that has such a political order.
3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.


de·moc·ra·cy n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

The USA was designed as a representative democracy.

[Bandit]

36. And where does referendum fit in?

:shrug:

[arcos]

69. Referendum is a direct democracy element...

inserted in a representative democracy model. Thus, it becomes a mixed model (leaning heavy on the rep dem side).

[durutti]

39. Republic = Indirect Democracy

It's really an argument over semantics.

[newyawker99]

52. Hi jonprt!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[arcos]

67. welcome to DU! (and you are wrong... :P)

There are two types of democracies: direct democracy and representative democracy. Most republics (if not all...) function under a representative democracy model. I believe there is no country in the world that currently has a 100% direct democracy system.

The dictionary definition stated in post #1 clearly states it: "Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives".

Democracy and Republic are not mutually exclusive terms. In fact, they are BOTH present in most countries.

[lapauvre]

63. And a "republic" means what

Representational government. Elected, in this country, democratically. So please let's not quibble over semantics.

In other countries, republic means appointed representation, as in the USSR.

WE are supposed to be choosing our representation, and if the democrats continue to shirk their duty to get involved and get registered, and to even vote, then they are every bit as responsible for their elected governmental representatives as the wonderfully orchestrated, propagandized, disinformation, misinformation, distorted government we have had for several decades.

If you don't exercise you right to vote, you should be deported to someplace, like America. This is your country. Fight for it, vote for your representatives, or shut up about your fate.

Guess I am tired of hearing the "this is a republic" thing. In the dictionary, a republic means not a monarchy, and a government of representatives, appointed or elected. The democracy comes in by the actions of each individual--one man, one vote. If we do not act democratically, the powers that be will continue to control, by money and powers they already possess.

Think about it.

[K-W]

6. Cut and Dry Republic

We elect leaders who have the power and can do what they want. With the exceptions of state ballots on certain issues and some local politics we are not a democracy at all. With all this talk of bringing democracy to other places we seem to have lost the concept of real democracy, which is that every citizen has an active role, not in choosing the government, but in deciding policy.

[FDRrocks]

10. I think along those lines.

I mean... our last President was not even elected... how can we bring democracy to another place? Wouldn't Canada or a European country be more fit. I mean, given Iraqs current technology, didn't it threaten more eastern democracies? The idea that they posed a threat to us was ridiculous in sane mind, both in 91 and 03.

[genius]

9. It's supposed to be a Democratic Republic but our elected representatives

don't care what we think because they know the news media will lie to us. The trouble is that the Democratic Party is collapsing and we suddenly don't have anyone to speak for us - except for a few courageous people like Dennis.

[FDRrocks]

11. In my opinion

They are collapsing cause they started cedeing to the right. They don't offer real opposition to the far right agenda that is happening, right here, right now.

I mean.. The Democrats help Republicans with thier bullshit legislation. The Republicans never help Democrats with thier legislation.

[maggrwaggr]

14. well it's sorta like "The Matrix"

where the gullible populance believes without a doubt that they actually have some say in what happens.

They all think we have free elections and that their vote actually is counted.

When in fact the powers that be just laugh at that concept altogether.

The powers that be wage their wars with each other in ways that we are only dimly aware.

9/11? Who did that? Russia? Why not? Where was Putin during the Afghan war? Why was Poppy Bush over there visiting just a little while ago? What new deal did Saudi Arabia and Putin just make? Why did Putin really jail the head of the oil company there in Russia?

This is just one tiny example. These higher-ups are all in bed with each other. They throw loaves of bread to the crowd (in this case we get to vote), while we all watch our televisions instead of gladitorial combat.

I never used to think this at all. This has become glaringly apparent to me over the last six months.

[FDRrocks]

15. Welcome, welcome to clarity.

I know what you are seeing, I went through the exact same phase a year ago. That is when I realized both parties empower each other, and neither really work for me and you.

Welcome, bro. We can change the world.

[corporatewhore]

16. I dont feel represented

i feel like my choices are between some one who will screw me and some one who will screw me a little less.
also i dont think that it is a very democratic system we have. We can only chose between two wealthy parties with sorta similar ideologies
i would love it if we could have more real viable choices whether it be nader or perot or whoever else wanted to run.Any way i also feel that we are an impearilistic nation howmany presidents have we overthrown and how many dictators have we propped up like saddam and pinnochet.

[FDRrocks]

17. I feel similarly.

I look at candidates nownd I look more at how corrupt or prone-to-corruption they are then at thier actual politics. If I was of age in 2000 I prolly would've favored McCain over everyone, even though I am left of Kucinich.

[KT2000]

19. Corporations are neither

a democracy nor a republic but they are the true rulers of this country.

[corporatewhore]

20. eveidence of facism nafta wto ftaa cafta

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

[JaySherman]

46. Chomsky describes them perfectly accurately...

"Totalitarian institutions," and "unaccountable private tyrannies."

[Myra]

21. Our founding fathers didn't intend for us to be a democracy

They didn't trust the people with that power, and they were
sort of a bunch of white wig wearing slave owning elitist poofs.
So they built in the electoral college to protect the US
from "the people." Then in the event we choose poorly
('cause we're so common and simple), the aristocrats could step
in and save us from ourselves. Yay! Thank you aristocrats!

Therefore, at best, if we realized our potential and all
went perfectly, we'd be a republic.
But all hasn't gone perfectly for about 50 years,
so we're a fascist state.

You didn't have this precise option so I wrote it in.

[0rganism]

23. Quite the contrary, they designed a representative democracy

The electoral college was a sop to the smaller states, true. But as designed, the USA is a representative democracy at every level. Every official is either elected or appointed by someone who is.

Those seen as "unfit" by the founders (and prevailing culture ever since that time) -- note that the USA is not unique in doing this -- were simply not allowed to vote at all. Gradually, the definition of who can vote has changed, but the notion that voting enfranchisement is reserved as a privelege remains intact. This is consistent with the earliest traditions of democracy practiced by the Athenians.

[Myra]

37. Oh, thank you Organism. Good info.

eom

[0rganism]

25. We live in a very corrupt democracy

In principle, the United States was and remains a representative democracy. The fact that there are corporate entities and wealthy individuals who wield disproportionate power in this democracy is but one example of how imperfect a democratic structure can be, but do not negate the basic underlying structure through their mere existance. By letting common people share in the election of government, we admit every tactic used to manipulate popular opinion as a potential political tool, and therein lies our greatest weakness.

There are serious problems with any form of government, and our democracy is no exception. Plato may have been a proto-fascist, but he wasn't entirely off-base in his critique, either.

[DemExpat]

26. We live in a form of Democracy....

I've gotten to know European political systems a bit, and they all have their compromises too.

All have their problems and weaknesses IMO.

DemEx

[DeaconBlues]

27. we don't live in any form of democracy

Corrupted fifth estate, the electoral college, an apathetic public, money flooding the system...

Our system is subverted in more ways than can be counted. I don't know if our government is any worse than it was in the past, but it sure the hell ain't getting any better.

[Junkdrawer]

28. An aging democracy with a hell of a case of facist cancer...

and that cancer is spreading rapidly through the soft tissue of apathy.

But I think that we will always present to the rest of the world a face of "democracy" - whether the world believes it is another story.

[FDRrocks]

29. kick

for the daytime audience

[tom_paine]

30. No.

Maybe a "Dying Democracy", perhaps but not a Democracy in the functional sense.

Rule largely by Imperial Fiat, a cowed Imperial Senate with many handpiced Imperial Lackeys, a media more reminiscent of Soviet Pravda (with an Amerikan Twist) than Walter Cronkite, only the judiciary seems to have some sense of the Old American Republic, but they are being so thoroughly flooded with Imperial Loyalists that it is only a matter of time until this bulwark gives way...

No, but perhaps it can be restored.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Democracy said bye bye in November 2002...

I'm still obsessing over this because Chimpy wouldn't have been able to get away with half the crap that he has if there was a democratic congress.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Constitutional Republic based on Democratic principles

which is in need of some major gov't reform.

[SonofMass]

33. We live in an

anarcho-syndicalist commune.

[ArkDem]

34. But wouldn't we be need to be taking turns as sort of

an executive officer for the week but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Lucky you.

Maybe I should move to Mass. But, Washington is pretty close and not as cold.

[not systems]

35. Plutocracy with a facade of democracy.

As the empire asserts itself this facade become
more and more weathered.

That said, lets vote that Bush bastard out in 2004!

[sweetheart]

42. and a thin facade at that... - rather a timocracy

The media=voice of some folks, like say rupert murdoch is worth the votes of a million citizens. That is not democracy, and you could say plutocracy, but i think even that is incorrect.

I believe its a timocracy, where the propertied people of "honour" are given the keys to the car, whilst the millions of disenfranchised people can't get their voice in edgewise.

timocracy = A state described by Plato as being governed on principles of honor and military glory.
An Aristotelian state in which civic honor or political power increases with the amount of property one owns. (dictionary.com)

[moondust]

66. Corpoplutocrorepublic.

Elections just provide an appearance of consent.

[durutti]

38. Yes and no.

Yes, the state takes a democratic form. However, this is a capitalist society. And in any capitalist society, the state ultimately serves to protect the interests of the wealthy.

[jsw_81]

41. No

We live in a representative republic. The United States was NEVER intended to be a true democracy.

[tinanator]

43. State of Denial

A Corporate O(i)ligarchy! What did I win?

[Room101]

47. tinanator - You have just won a trip to personal enlightenment

According to Benito Mussolini- "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism as it is a merge of state and corporate power."

Whoever refers to our country as a Democracy is usually too busy watching football to realize it’s not.

Our Republic died a long time ago when we become the national security state(1948).

[nhtfopo]

44. I only voted no because we live in a represenative republic

not a democracy.

[blindpig]

45. no

our republic is similar to that of late republic rome with its jerrymandered popular voting system. Questions and choices are framed by the elite, who enjoy complete control. When challenged, such as by the Gracchi brothers, the velvet glove slips off. The similarities are scary, where's my tin foil hat? But I don't expect us to adopt the tactic of granting one man imperium like Octavius, unless a civil war reduces the elites to tribalism, rather a shameless plutrocracy seems to be our drift.

[deutsey]

49. Have you read The Assassination of Caesar?

It's by Michael Parenti. I haven't read it yet, but what you're saying is very similar to his thesis.

[deutsey]

50. As I said in another thread

I believe America is a represenative republic that has increasingly expanded the mechanism of creating and perpetuating that republic, democracy (e.g., popular voting), to include wider circles of people.

We've had to fight like hell to get what little we got.

What happened in 2000, in my opinion, was an attempt to roll that democratic trend backward (disenfranchisement of the right to vote).

The damn "representative republic" is still here (as strong as any banana republic you can imagine), but it's representing the corporations and the oligarchs, not the will of the people, hence my reference to pro-democracy protests and the reference to our republic as existing on the principles of democracy.

Check out:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/tencommandments.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0604-01.htm

[wanderingbear]

53. That depends on who you ask..

Ask a republican and theyll say we live in a Republic..Ask a Democrat and theyll say we live in a democracy.. Ask a Green and theyll say we live in a corperate plutocracy.

[Mairead]

54. PLEASE get your terms straight, people--it's not that hard!

'Democracy' and 'republic' are orthoganal terms. They lie on different axes.

A republic is any form government not headed by 'royalty'. If the government isn't headed (whether in fact or as a figurehead) by someone whose ceremonial attire includes a crown, then it's a republic. Whether or not it's also a democracy is COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

Democracy means rule by the ruled, jointly. Whether that's done directly or via some proxy is COMPLETELY SEPARATE to whether the person who heads the government wears a spiky tin hat on formal occasions.

It's possible to have a country that is a kingdom and a democracy (the UK, for example--at least nominally, still). It is possible to have a republic that is not a democracy--Iraq, recently. It is possible to have a republic in which democracy is exercised directly (I know there is at least one, tho I can't think which), or a republic in which democracy is indirect (the US, though only nominally)

Democracy and republic are TWO DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS of political organisation!

[FDRrocks]

65. bad post

[Mairead]

71. I hope you didn't think I was directing that at your basenote?

I was really replying to the various people who still can't seem to get it straight.

I suppose, on reflection, that I should have put a version of this disclaimer in my response. ooops.

[terrya]

56. We live in a plutocracy.

The wealthy and powerful control this governement and this country.

We do NOT, under any circumstances, live in a democracy.

[Deja Q]

57. 100% spot-on! Even Bill O'Reilly has admitted as much.

He said a couple years back how the wealthy have the power and also said "it's not fair but that's how it is".

He's for the plutocracy because he's one who also has $uch power and he was saying the words in a defeatist tone.

He's a scumbag.

[wanderingbear]

59. Bingo...

Right on the money.

[Sugarbleus]

58. (Capitalist)Democratic Republic ....BUT...

Judging by the way the media has been "filtered", the Patriot Act, and all the wealth at the top...
it's starting to look like: USSR=United States Soviet Republic

[kreg]

60. We are a 'democracy' but not in totally.

First of all a true direct democracy (majority rules) is a very bad thing. (Please understand this).

A true direct democracy means that 51% of the people can make 49% of the people eat dog sh*t and they can't complain.

Now we DO have a representative democracy. Perhaps our representatives are not very good (I'm very willing to concede that fact =) but our government IS a democracy. (To quote the thread-maker: Democracy, "Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives." Our laws are created by elected representatives....thus, we are a democracy)

Luckily we have a government that protects us when evil lying SOB regimes that take over for 4 years (bring anyone to mind people?) cannot pull a fast one and shut out competing forces. The reps are in power now, they will lose in '08. They aren't dictators just yet.

Sorry for ye of little faith, but we will be back in power again....but we may have to eat a little dog sh*t on the way. :/

[jor_mama]

61. I'd always heard "constitutional republic"

In that the guiding force was the constitution.

Not much else I can add to this excellent discussion, but just that I hadn't seen that phrase pop up.

I do agree, though, that the subversions are too numerous ...

[FDRrocks]

64. Thanks for the complement.

Belated- Welcome to DU :) :) :)

[cryofan]

62. We live in a PROPAGANDA-OCRACY

...where public opinion is created and shaped through mass media to the interests of those with power and money. Once public opinion has been created and shaped, enough people go along with the movers and shakers so that they can do much of whatever they want....such as lower taxes, globalize our jobs, cram the country full of people through immigration, lower wage costs, strip union of its power, gut worker protections, etc etc etc....

[Guaranteed]

70. In the sense that our votes count, yes.

Yes, our votes count.

God dammit.