Do You Believe There Will Ever Be A Fully-Functioning Democracy In Iraq?

[THUNDER HANDS]

Yes or No?

Do you think the Iraqi people are capable of instituting a Jeffersonian-type democracy in their country - either with the aid and support of the U.S. or UN nations or by their own merit?

I say, and have stated a few times here, that I believe the answer to be no.

I don't say that because I believe muslims are incapable of understanding or seeing the virtues of a democracy, or incapable of starting one themselves.

But I do not believe that one can be sustained either in Iraq or any other part of the middle east.

One of the first things you learn in Politics 101 is that the ground floor, the basic concrete of any democracy is not voting rights, or free speech rights or anything that could be written into a constitution.

The most essential, basic element of any democracy is that the people conscent to being governered. And there is little evidence that the majority of Iraqis will concent to being lead by someone who isn't like them. The shiites don't want the Sunni's ruling and the sunni's don't want the Kurds ruling and so on and so forth.

Until thousands of years of tribal differences are put aside, a democracy in which the people of Iraq truely believe that they are free and able to choose their own leaders will not occur.

And any installed American-backed Iraqi leader will no doubt be seen as a puppet. And if that person isn't assasinated within his first few months he will probably get voted out as soon as any real elections are held.

And the winner of any vote in a newly-liberated Iraq will be someone who is a community leader. And who are the community leaders in Iraq? Religious leaders.

I don't think I need to tell you where I believe that will lead Iraq to. But here's a hint, it's not democracy.

But I could be wrong. Maybe a miracle will happen and the U.S. will be able to bring a fully-functioning Jeffersonian-style democracy to Iraq. Maybe the Iraqi tribes can put aside their differences and work together. Maybe sometimes the best scenario will occur.

But do you really think that'll happen?

[dean4america]

1. I vote for option three:

3) still waiting to see it in action here in the USA

[LiberalVoice]

4. Ditto

[alwynsw]

12. You said "ditto"!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[greatauntoftriplets]

7. Agreed.

And will the regime consider it a "fully functioning democracy" if they don't like certain aspects of it? Say, if it is a fundamentalist Islamic republic along the lines of Iran.

[alwynsw]

9. It's constitutionally impossible to have a fully functioning

democracy in the U.S. Read the constitution.

We live in a constitutional REPUBLIC. In other words, a representative form of government. Functioning democracies are unworkable. They require a vote by the entire population on every issue. Try to make that work with the 30,000,000 plus in Iraq. Now try to make it work with the nearly 300,000,000 in the U.S. It's a practical impossibility.

[alcuno]

2. Yes. Right after they kick the US out.

That is a highly educated population in Iraq.

[loudnclear]

30. Maybe right after the US gets one.

eom

[bpilgrim]

3. if they are able to remove the jackbooted heel from their collective faces

with our superior technology it will be supremely difficult to do but history has demonstrated quite clearly the extrodinary power of the human spirit against ALL odds.

:hi:

peace

[pinkpops]

5. not at least until the U.S> has one

[pippin]

6. Hell, we don't even have one here

in the US any more :-(

[T Roosevelt]

8. That was my first thought on reading the subject title

;-)

[doc03]

19. Agree

That was my first thought also.

[okieinpain]

10. no because the majority is the one's nobody wants in power.

[Orangeone]

11. The question is faulty

It's assuming that it is what every country has to aspire to. Maybe they want to go in a different direction. It really depends on what the Iraqis want.

Any way US believes in "democracy" in Iraq as long as they pick some one we approve of...

[Ladyhawk]

13. That is so true.

The Islamic fundies are going to duke it out. I'm just wondering if they're going to struggle together to get the US out or "struggle together" a la Monty Python's Life of Brian. Regardless, the situation is messy and will only get more so.

[AngryAmish]

14. Once they kick the imperialists out

[Liberal_Dog]

15. No

If Iraq were ever a democracy, then it would probably wind up splitting apart, similar to Yugoslavia.

[Skittles]

16. not until women have even the appearance of equal rights

in other words, NEVER

[Djinn]

17. perhaps you need to study skittles

up until Saddam needed some support and thought the fundies might help against the great satan that was the west, Iraq was adamantly secular - women in all levels of public life including as soldiers in the army

[peacebuzzard]

18. Or Memphis? Miami? Tucson?Salt Lake? LAX? Vote no. 3

Democracy is in our dreams.

[Blue_Roses]

20. You can't take a country

and try to change it to the likes of what "you think it should be," because this will be good for the country and the region. Not only is this extremely arrogant thinking, but naive.

In other words, it ain't gonna happen. Not in our lifetime anyway.

Like you pointed out, there are too many differences, and on top of that, it is an outside country trying to tell them HOW to implement democracy. Our country was founded on democracy and even WE had problems with HOW it should be run.

[interceptor]

21. It won't be Jeffersonian

It'll probably look more like Turkey, assuming its not upset at the start.

[opihimoimoi]

22. If we got our finger prints on it, hell NO

[moondust]

23. After some vain attempts

and failures, a dictator like Saddam or a party of thugs like the Baathists will come to power on the promise to keep order and will stay there for a long, long time. Looks like the Baathists are already well on their way thanks to the U.S. hiring them back to run things.

Bushco doesn't give a damn who is running the place as long as it is not somebody who will not allow the big oil boys to take what they want.

[FDRrocks]

24. No, be serious.

We don't even have a functional democracy here. How can we bring anything but Corporatism to Iraq. They will never work for the people over there, and they will never work for the people here.

[Virginian]

25. After we leave, same game different name.

They will go back to having a tyrant dictator.

Saddam had slowed down on killing people. The next guy will be what Saddam was 15 or 20 years ago. One group will get power and start killing the other groups. More people will die because we deposed Saddam than if we hadn't.

[FarLefty]

26. No not unless

we have a DEMOCRAT in the White House. Republicans can only fight wars and do a half a** job at that. It takes DEMOCRATS to bring DEMOCRACY.

[maggrwaggr]

27. yeah, they'll have a fake one just like we do

oh, they'll think they're voting. They'll think they have some say. But no. They're just peons, like we are. Just fodder.

[VOX]

28. No. The "law of reversed effort" is in effect: the more the U.S. tries...

to bring the illusion of democracy to Iraq, the stronger the resistance will be.

Although Iraq has been secular under Saddam, Islamic fundamentalists in the region are very turned off by Western democracy (which is appropriate to their culture), and they will fight like hell to keep from being horsecollared in this manner.

The greater the U.S. tries to effect this makeover, the greater the failure will be.

[Clark Can WIN]

29. Jeffersonian-type is the key there isn't it?

And then the other key would be the fact that Iraq is just a made up country fashioned by white colonialists in the first place.

I think the first election to be held should ask the Iraqi people if they wish to keep Iraq whole, as is, or if they wish it to be divided and governed seperately. It's their home, it should be their choice.

If they vote to stay together we should give them no more and no less help than they ask for to accomplish that. If they vote to split we should help only to stabalize the situation no more than needed to establish new borders and prevent "ethnic cleansing" or other genocide.

Whateer form of government is chosen is their business.

[LeahMira]

32. That should be first... but it will probably be last.

I think the first election to be held should ask the Iraqi people if they wish to keep Iraq whole, as is, or if they wish it to be divided and governed seperately. It's their home, it should be their choice.

Absolutely... or some other arrangement of their choice because either/or choices bother me. Some may want to be independent while others may want some sort of confederacy, for instance.

I'm afraid the Iraqis will never be given that sort of choice though. For some reason our government can't deal with anything but a hierarchy. I suppose it limits the number of people we feel we need to control.

[amber dog democrat]

31. There is no democracy here either.

Given the mess in Iraq, I don't see it happeng there either.
I think there will be years of turmiol no matter what kind of political system emerges.
I wish them luck.

Its the height of hypocracy for the chimp to squeak about democracy in Iraq after having stolen the 2000 election.

[ArkDem]

36. You are right, I only see the turmiol getting worse

.

[PSU84]

33. I would be satisfied with

a fully functioning democracy in the United States. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Padraig18]

34. 'Maybe', but only because...

... they have a literate population and a fairly significant middle-class. 50% chance.

[msmcghee]

35. Throughout the Middle East . .

. . religion, politics and life in general are subsumed within a culture dating back thousands of years . . where strong male figures with personal police forces and armies at their disposal run things.

This is basically a nomadic desert culture where for thousands of years this was the only way to survive. Islam was created and shaped to reinforce that culture. Almost all their institutions, like education and government reflect that militant patriarchal view.

In the last 100 years, the wealth available from oil and easy access to ever more powerful weapons has firmly locked in this militant patriarchal approach to life throughout the region. I suspect that if there was no oil there, they would have gradually become less militant and patriarchal and adopted a softer western-like culture.

Today, strong male figures still run things in the Middle East: they run the family, the community, the state, the religion.

If you are male, your success in life is dependent in which male authority figure you follow and pay allegiance and loyalty to. If your nation is run by a Sunni and you are Shia, you are SOL. The Shia don't want democracy. They want their militant male father figure to run things. If they succeed, the Sunni's will be SOL.

That's the way it is and that's the way they want it. The only group that will encourage democratic representation is the group with the most voters. And they will only do this to appease the west as a way to get into power. Once their leader is elected the other groups will immediately try to destroy the democracy rather than accept their fate - which they see as a cowardly thing to do.

I believe it would be impossible for that to change without a cataclysmic event where millions are killed and their culture is basically destroyed. Perhaps we are on the road to such an event, thanks to the BFEE - but it could easily be our culture that is destroyed, not theirs.