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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 03:53 PM
Original message
Bush Gay Marriage Remarks 'Act Of War'
http://www.365gay.com/newscontent/121703BushRxn.htm

President George W. Bush's Support of the Federal Marriage Amendment is deemed a declaration of war on Gay America the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force warned Tuesday night. And it said the president is courting civil disobedience if he pursues his course.

In an interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer, Bush indicated earlier Tuesday night that he leaning towards supporting the amendment, currently in Congress. (story)

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. And Speaking as a Straight Male.......
....I'm hereby declaring war on Pretzelboy.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Another Straight Male Says
Sign me up!
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. In some sick way I hope the repubs try and get that Amendment passed
Because I believe it will blow up in their faces.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Hmmm, let's see Andy Sullivan explain this away!
OOPS--he elides the subject once again!
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. If they pass this abomination of an amendment
I stop paying taxes!
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. However you feel about "gay marriage"
passage of this Constitutional Ammendment will make Gays & Lesbians 2nd class citizens. This is simply unacceptable! I can't imagine that such a devisive CA would pass, but these days you never know.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Taliban with a smirk.
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 04:10 PM by bandera
Prez Compassion is playing to his fundamentalist bigot base. They'll be marching lockstep, singing hallelujah, tithing to the RNC, and heaping up stones to fulfill their version of Sharia Law.

This "issue" should deserve nothing more than a laugh at the medieval minded true-believers. Unfortunately, the suckers live in a dreamworld of Mom & Pop in Mayberry, USA.

BTW, I'm a straight, white, married, male. This is not a "homosexual" issue, it's a human rights issue.
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hey, I'm straight but, I expected this from Bush......
and you know what...he's gonna get it too. It will make Gay people second class citizens but you watch, he'll get it. By losing possibly five Senate seats in the south...maybe..how will Democrats be able to stand up to this in Congress. Just wait, they are going to overturn Roe V Wade as well....and they are going to implement a draft. I promise it's coming, and they'll be no stoping it.
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Is this more of the "I'm a uniter not a divider"?? Strange way to unite...
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MarkTwain Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Agreed. An Act of War....
... is what's needed. Unfortunately as we've seen with the country in general relative to the Patriot Act and its various derivatives, we live in a nation of sheeple. Straight or Gay, the response will most likely be far less than any declaration of war.

The friggin' Log Cabin Rebpublicans came out today in support of this as an issue of states rights.

And the big boner, so to speak, for DimSon in this whole thing may well be that issue. Resident McHappyCrack specifically stated that he would leave the issues in the hands of the states....

...and already, the wingnut fundies are going ballistic and getting their panties in a twist over even this presumed concession that the boy-idiot made.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. FMA dies if 34 U.S. Senators vote against it
And really, why can't we mobilize enough Senate Dems against it?

A number of Northeastern senators who suffer virtually no political risk if they oppose FMA:

Kennedy
Kerry
Leahy
Jeffords
Lieberman
Dodd
Biden
Carper
Reed

Strong veteran incumbents who wouldn't be hurt by this one issue:

Byrd
Rockefellar
Sarbanes
Mikulski
Durbin
Kohl
Schumer
Harkin
Akaka
Inouye
Levin

Fairly Liberal Senators who would alienate their base if they support FMA:

Boxer
Feinstein
Murray
Cantwell
Clinton
Feingold
Dayton
Wyden
Bingaman
Stabenow

Retiring Senators who have nothing to lose if they vote against it:

Graham
Edwards
Hollings
Breaux

Moderate Dem senators who won't be up for reelection until 2008:

Landrieu
Johnson

So there's 36 Democratic votes against it right there!

That's not even counting the moderate Republicans who could be swayed to vote "No" on FMA:

Chafee
Snowe
Collins
Lugar
Campbell
Voinovich
DeWine
McCain
Liddy Dole
Coleman
Specter (if he doesn't want to lose moderate Pennsylvanians)
Gordon Smith
Fitzgerald (yes, I know he's retiring, so how's he going to need to pander to the Illinois GOP?...)

and even some more conservative Republicans who could oppose it for non-religious reasons:

Grassley
Domenici
Hatch
Bennett

So why does everyone think FMA is going to pass the U.S. Senate?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. HA.! Don't count on Senator Byrd to support gay marriage
He has the same view as the rignt wingers do on gays. He stood on the Senate floor, bible in hand quoting it, in support of the Defense of Marrge Act.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. If Byrd is so passionate about the Constitution as he says he is
I can't understand why he would support this amendment. FMA really is a defilement of a document Byrd claims he cherishes.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. I hope we can block this
and I do think the Senate is our best shot. It will all come down to how this vote is portrayed. If it is percieved as banning gay marriage and nothing else we could be in trouble. If it is known as what it is, something which would take away a substantial amount of rights for all gay couples, then we should be OK.

I quibble with some of your placement of people but you aren't way off with the exception of Byrd who will vote for his.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. Byrd?
Homophobe? Good luck with him...
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Blade Donating Member (624 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. Coming from a straight male...
I hope this blows up in pretzelboy's face. This will anger a lot of people, including me.
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. War on Byrd?
I assume that the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and everyone here who is declaring war on Bush has also declared war on that aging bigot Robert C. Byrd. He's done FAR more damage to the cause of gay marriage than Bush or anyone else in America has. He co-sponsored DOMA and said that gay marriage is "a sneak attack on society that reflects a demand for political correctness gone berserk."

Here is the vile old bigot's charming speech on the subject of marriage on the floor of the Senate (all emphasis mine):

Congressional Record

Proceedings and Debates of the 104th Congress, Second Session

Vol. 142 WASHINGTON, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1996 No. 123

Senate

Mr. President, I am pleased to join my colleague, the senior Senator from Oklahoma, in cosponsoring the Defense of Marriage Act. Although I am glad to work with Senator Nickles in this effort, I must admit that, in all of my nearly 44 years in the Congress, I never envisioned that I would see a measure such as the Defense of Marriage Act.

It is incomprehensible to me that federal legislation would be needed to provide a definition of two terms that for thousands of years have been perfectly clear and unquestioned. That we have arrived at a point where the Congress of the United States must actually reaffirm in the statute books something as simple as the definition of "marriage" and "spouse," is almost beyond my grasp. But as the current state of legal affairs has shown, this bill is a necessary endeavor.

...Let me read from, "The Case For Same-Sex Marriage," by William N. Eskridge, Jr.

My guess is that one or more of the foregoing denominations will tilt towards same sex unions or marriages in the next 5 to 10 years. Even the religions that are most prominently opposed to gay marriages have clergy who perform gay marriage ceremonies. The Roman Catholic Church firmly opposes gay marriage but its celebrated priest, John J. McNeill says that he and many other Catholic clergy have performed same-sex commitment services. Although Father McNeill's position is marginalized within the Catholic Church, it reflects the views of many devout Catholics. Support for same-sex marriage is probably most scarce among Baptists in the South.
You can be assured that same-sex marriage is an issue that has arrived worldwide and that efforts to head it off will only be successful in the short term.

...Therefore, Mr. President, the time is now, the place is here, to debate this issue. It confronts us now. It comes even nearer.

There are those who say, "Why does the Senate not debate and act upon relevant matters?" This is relevant. And it is relevant today.

In very simple and easy to read language, this bill says that a marriage is the legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and that a spouse is a husband or wife of the opposite sex. There is not, of course, anything earth-shaking in that declaration. We are not breaking any new ground here. We are not setting any new precedent. We are not overturning the status quo in any way, shape or form. On the contrary, all this bill does is reaffirm for purposes of Federal law what is already understood by everyone.

Mr. President, throughout the annals of human experience, in dozens of civilizations and cultures of varying value systems, humanity has discovered that the permanent relationship between men and women is a keystone to the stability, strength, and health of human society—a relationship worthy of legal recognition and judicial protection. The purpose of this kind of union between human beings of opposite gender is primarily for the establishment of a home atmosphere in which a man and a woman pledge themselves exclusively to one another and who bring into being children for the fulfilment of their love for one another and for the greater good of the human community at large.

Obviously human beings enter into a variety of relationships. Business partnerships, friendships, alliances for mutual benefits, and team memberships all depend upon emotional unions of one degree or another. For that reason, a number of these relationships have found standing under the laws of innumerable nations.

However, in no case, has anyone suggested that these relationships deserve the special recognition or the designation commonly understood as "marriage." The suggestion that relationships between members of the same gender should ever be accorded the status or the designation of marriage flies in the face of the thousands of years of experience about the societal stability that traditional marriage has afforded human civilization. To insist that male-male or female-female relationships must have the same status as the marriage relationship is more than unwise, it is patently absurd.

...Out of same-sex relationships, no children can result. Out of such relationships emotional bonding oftentimes does not take place, and many such relationships do not result in the establishment of "families" as society universally interprets that term. Indeed as history teaches us too often in the past, when cultures waxed casual about the uniqueness and sanctity of the marriage commitment between men and women, those cultures have been shown to be in decline. This was particularly true in the ancient world in Greece and, more particularly, in Rome. In both Greece and Rome, same-sex relationships were not uncommon.


...Suetonius, the Roman biographer, relates that Julius Caesar prostituted his body to be abused by King Nicomedes of Bithynia, and that Curio the Elder, in an oration, called Caesar "a woman for all men and a man for all women."

While same-sex relations were not unknown, therefore, to the ancients, same-sex marriages were a different matter. But they did sometimes involve utilization of the forms and the customs of heterosexual marriage. For example, the Emperor Nero, who reigned between 54 and 68 A.D., took the marriage vows with a young man named Sporus, in a very public ceremony, with a gown and a veil and with all of the solemnities of matrimony, after which Nero took this Sporus with him, carried on a litter, all decked out with ornaments and jewels and the finery normally worn by empresses, and traveled to the resort towns in Greece and Italy, Nero, "many a time, sweetly kissing him."

Mr. President, the marriage bond as recognized in the Judeo-Christian tradition, as well as in the legal codes of the world's most advanced societies, is the cornerstone on which the society itself depends for its moral and spiritual regeneration as that culture is handed down, father to son and mother to daughter.

Indeed thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teaching leave absolutely no doubt as to the sanctity, purpose, and reason for the union of man and woman. One only has to turn to the Old Testament and read the word of God to understand how eternal is the true definition of marriage.

Mr. President, I am rapidly approaching my 79th birthday, and I hold in my hands a Bible, the Bible that was in my home when I was a child. This is the Bible that was read to me by my foster father. It is a Bible, the cover of which having been torn and worn, has been replaced. But this is the Bible, the King James Bible. And here is what it says in the first chapter of Genesis, 27th and 28th verses:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...

And when God used the word "multiply," he wasn't talking about multiplying your stocks, bonds, your bank accounts or your cattle on a thousand hills or your race horses or your acreages of land. He was talking about procreation, multiplying, populating the earth.

And after the flood, when the only humans who were left on the globe were Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives, the Bible says in chapter 9 of Genesis:

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.
Christians also look at the Gospel of Saint Mark, chapter 10, which states:

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife.

And they twain shall become one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Woe betide that society, Mr. President, that fails to honor that heritage and begins to blur that tradition which was laid down by the Creator in the beginning.

...This reflects a demand for political correctness that has gone berserk. We live in an era in which tolerance has progressed beyond a mere call for acceptance and crossed over to become a demand for the rest of us to give up beliefs that we revere and hold most dear in order to prove our collective purity. At some point, a line must be drawn by rational men and women who are willing to say, "Enough!"


Certainly in today's far too permissive world, traditional marriage as an institution is struggling. Divorce is far too frequent, as are male and female relationships which do not end in marriage. Certainly we do not want to launch a further assault on the institution of marriage by blurring its definition in this unwise way.

The drive for the acceptance of same-sex or same-gender " marriage" should serve for us as an indication that we have drawn too close to the edge and that we as a people are on the verge of trying so hard to please a few that we destroy the values and the spiritual beliefs of the many. Moreover, to seek the codification of same-sex marriage into our national or State legal codes is to make a mockery of those codes themselves. Many legal scholars believe that only after a majority of society comes to a consensus on the legality or illegality of one issue or another should that issue be written down in our legal institutions. The drive for same-sex marriage is, in effect, an effort to make a sneak attack on society by encoding this aberrant behavior in legal form before society itself has decided it should be legal—a proposition which is far in the distance, if ever to be realized.

...Mr. President, for these reasons and others named by the opponents of same-sex or gender marriage, I hope that our colleagues here in the Senate will demonstrate their thorough opposition to efforts to subvert the traditional definition of "marriage" by going on record today against this very unnecessary idea.

Let us make clear that in our generation, at least, we understand the meaning and purpose of marriage and that we affirm our trust in the divine approbation—you do not have to be a preacher to say this; I am not a prophet or the son of a prophet; I am not a preacher or the son of a preacher; one does not have to be a prophet or a preacher—to affirm our trust in the divine approbation of union between a man and a woman, between a male and female for all time.

Mr. President, 41 years ago I was traveling with a House subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Affairs. I visited the city of Baghdad, the city of the Arabian Nights, where Ali Baba followed the 40 thieves through the streets, and from which Sinbad the Sailor departed on his journey to the magnetic mountain.

I asked an old Arab guide to take me down to the old Biblical city of Babylon, where one of the famous seven wonders of the world, the hanging gardens, was created. As I reached the old city of Babylon I stood on the banks of the Euphrates River, that old river that is first mentioned in the Book of Genesis, which like a thread runs through the entire Bible, the Old Testament and the New, and is mentioned again in the book of Revelation.

I stood on the site, or at least I was told I was standing on the site of where Belshazzar, the son of Nebuchadnezzar, held a great feast for 1,000 of his lords. Belshazzar, took the cups that had been stolen from the temple by Nebuchadnezzar. He and his wife and concubines and his colleagues drank from those vessels, and Belshazzar saw the hand of a man writing on the plaster of the wall, over near the candlestick, and the hand wrote "me'ne, me'ne, te'kel, uphar'sin" and the countenance of Belshazzar changed, his knees buckled, and his legs trembled beneath him. He called in his astrologers and soothsayers and magicians and said, "Tell me what that writing means," but they were mystified. They could not interpret the writing. Then the queen told Belshazzar that there was a man in the kingdom who could interpret that writing. So, Daniel was brought before the king and told by the king that he, Daniel, would be clothed in scarlet with a golden chain around his neck, and that he would become a third partner in the kingdom if he could interpret that writing. Daniel interpreted the writing:

God hath numbered thy kingdom and finished it. Thou art found wanting. Thy kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.
That night Belshazzar was slain by Darius the Median, and his kingdom was divided.

Mr. President, America is being weighed in the balances. If same-sex marriage is accepted, the announcement will be official, America will have said that children do not need a mother and a father, two mothers or two fathers will be just as good.

This would be a catastrophe. Much of America has lost its moorings. Norms no longer exist. We have lost our way with a speed that is awesome. What took thousands of years to build is being dismantled in a generation.


I say to my colleagues, let us take our stand. The time is now. The subject is relevant. Let us defend the oldest institution, the institution of marriage between male and female, as set forth in the Holy Bible. Else we, too, will be weighed in the balances and found wanting.

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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That sounds like something Lieberman would say...
Byrd may have been a vocal supporter of DOMA...but so was Orrin Hatch. And I believe that Hatch has said a U.S. Constitutional amendment is going too far.

So, being a loyal Democrat, I can't imagine Byrd supporting a Republican-driven amendment to the U.S. Constitution...and if he does, I wish him nothing but pain and misfortune for the remainder of his life and he deserves whatever future travesty falls upon him.

Yes, the war will be directed at Byrd too (or any other Democrat who votes for FMA), if he is senile enough to support Bush & Rove's anti-gay agenda.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. actually Lieberman has a terrific record on gay rights
When Byrd was famously saying there were no gays in WV Lieberman compiled a record that includes support of ENDA, anti hate crimes, and increased funding for AIDS treatment. DOMA is Lieberman's only bad vote on gays in a nearly 30 year career.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thanks for posting this. I get tired of people gushing over that
bigoted old man. I don't care how eloquent he is speaking out against Bush.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Thank you so much
I get very sick of being called a traitor to the cause for pointing out that the man who said this is anti gay.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. and that's exactly what Bush intended
Come on, the "gay marriage" thing has died down and Bush is just trying to get folks riled up again.

It's their pet issue for 2004. THE big distraction for them.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. Surely The ABJECT HATRED That I Feel For Them Cannot Be Healthy...
... It's almost debilitating.

With every fiber of my being, I loathe George Dubya Bush and the Christian fundies he's pandering to. He's despicable.

My hatred for him and his ilk is so vehement that I can taste it. He's a pathetic excuse for a human being... a vomitous sack of bile and about as worthless as a floating turd that refuses to flush away.

-- Allen
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
19. An act of war it is.
I certainly hope the 1 - 2 million gay people who actually voted for this POS have seen the error of their ways.
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Anaxamander Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
24. Speaking as another straight male...
...this means war.

Question for anti-gay conservatives: Have you ever heard the phrase "live and let live," assholes?

Equal protection under the law?

Inalienable rights?

Are any of these ringing a bell?
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reachout Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
26. Gay support for Repulicans
I used to never really understand what seemed to me a surprising amount of support for Republicans among people who identify themselves as G-L-B-T. Then, I read a really good book on suburban homosexuals males and how they view themselves: "Peacocks, Chameleons, Centaurs: Gay Suburbia and the Grammar of Social Identity"

I remember a quote that really struck me from a gay man living with his partner in suburban New Jersey. He explained how they had a combined income around $80K and he voted Republican because he wanted a tax cut. I realized that I had been exhibiting my prejudice when I forgot that gay Americans are just that, Americans. Like a lot of people in this country, they are willing to give up some freedoms for what they perceive as a chance to attain a higher social status (and a chance to buy more things).

In the coming election there will be a LOT of people who have been personally hurt by the Bush administration who will vote for him anyway, bacause they believe they'll be able to keep "more of their hard earned money" and buy a nicer car, or more material goods at Wal-Mart. This is a difficult problem to address.



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