I think I'm going to have to support Clark...

[shawn703]

Even though I think I tend to agree with Dean more politically. This doesn't even have much to do with the Dean "electability" question - since I think either one of them should be able to beat Bush. My change in heart has come because of the southern Democratic senators who are not seeking reelection - Miller, Edwards, Hollings, Graham, and now Breaux. I think that Clark would have more coattails for Democratic Senate candidates in the South to ride than Dean would have. We need to regain the majority in the Senate, not get swept out of the South and give the Republicans a filibuster-proof Senate. If by some chance Bush does win reelection, I am more afraid of the damage he could do in the long term by getting hard-core right-wing judges in place than he could with four more years of his policies. Maybe these seats are safe for Democrats anyway, and I'm just worrying over nothing - I just wouldn't want to take a chance that we'll get some judges in there making decisions that couldn't be reversed for 20-30 years.

[SahaleArm]

1. Just curious what this means?

Even though I think I tend to agree with Dean more politically

[shawn703]

25. Gun control and marijuana, probably flag burning amendment too

It seemed Dean had the more lenient stance as far as the ilicit drugs issue than Clark has. I'm pretty sure I saw that Clark supports a flag-burning amendment. Also Dean had the A rating from the NRA. Before I get flamed on any of these three points, I have never done any illegal drugs, I don't own a gun, nor have I burned any flags. I just have very civil libertarian views.

[SahaleArm]

27. I'm pretty sure Dean has the stronger anti-drug policy...

Dean and Clark are pretty close on the gun issue (Clark owns guns). The biggest difference is the flag issue and Dean has been murky on that one.

[shawn703]

28. Well, Selectsmart

made it look like Dean had the more favorable stance...


Dean -

Illicit Drugs: We need to treat drugs as a public health problem.. That's difficult to do. We actually don't have a lot of drug users in our jails; the ones we have in there are drug users who are also dealers. Jails not a particularly effective way to get people to stop using drugs; treatment is.
In an interview with "The Nation" magazine, Dr. Dean--who believes in a scientific fact based approach--would direct the FDA to evaluate medical marijuana. Whatever the conclusion, he'd accept their findings.
As Governor, Dean adopted the National Governors Association policy, which in part said, "The nation’s Governors urge the President and Congress to fully fund drug and alcohol abuse education, drug courts, treatment, prevention, and law enforcement efforts, including the initiative to combat and clean up methamphetamine production laboratories, at the state and local levels of government."


Clark -
Illegal Drugs
Clark said, "I don't favor decriminalizing the use of marijuana. I might change my mind on that, but I don't right now favor that



Also on the topic of Selectsmart, my match with Dean is 73% and Clark is 67%. (The unnamed Socialist candidate actually came in the highest for me at 76%.)

[SahaleArm]

33. The results are not linear

From: http://www.ontheissues.org/Howard_Dean.htm#Drugs

Treat drug abuse as a medical problem, not a judicial one. (Nov 17)
Smoked marijuana in the past, as did other Dems. (Nov 9)
Evaluate marijuana & legalize for valid medical purposes. (Aug 4)
Hammer the dealers; treat the casual users. (Jan 14)
More federal funding for all aspects of Drug War. (Aug 2000)

From: http://www.granitestaters.com/guide/index.html

http://www.granitestaters.com/guide/clark.html (B+)
http://www.granitestaters.com/guide/dean.html (C)

[shawn703]

34. Thanks!

I didn't read that part about more federal funding for all aspects of Drug War. I'm totally against the "War on Drugs" - big waste of money, and in my opinion, does more harm than good.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. Welcome to the Team!

:toast:

DTH

[Myra]

3. Well, for what it's worth shawn703, I think General Clark is...

Not just the best candidate in this election, but the best
candidate I've ever seen.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. I Agree

The man truly believes in this country and the concept of public service as a societal good.

DTH

[Gloria]

5. Very good point. 5 seats now in play for sure.....

I think Clark would help with these races, too.

[Bombtrack]

6. You should add Lincoln to that list

she's certainly the least at risk of the southern senators, but it never hurts to have it safer with her homestate candidate running

[OrAnarch]

Bush would destroy Clark in the south,

and although you'd agree with Clark's policies more, seems you could pick a clear winner just voting for Bush, eh? Vote your heart, and shut out all the electability propaganda. At this point its all conjecture, biased analysis, and political ramblings behind who will do best in the South.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Clark Will Do Better in the South Than Anyone But Maybe Edwards

He is, after all, a Southerner. And not just any Southerner, but a Southerner with an incredibly distinguished military background, which is very attractive in the South.

Maybe we Dems still wouldn't be able to win the South, but Clark would sure have a better chance at it, and he'd sure force Bush to spend some of his money there rather than bombarding the battleground states even more.

DTH

[OrAnarch]

13. My point is...

If your goign to forget people's stance on issues and just go for who will do best in the South, the man to pick is Bush. If your going to stand by your convictions, people need to ignore this political biased bullshit analysis coming out now. Simple.

[shawn703]

16. That's not my point

I'm thinking about what's best for the NATION - not the just the South. I don't want to see the Republicans get a filibuster-proof Senate and push through extremist judges. That will screw the whole nation if they achieve that. I think better safe than sorry.

[Jack_Dawson]

24. Really?

Clark would win AR, TN, SC and FL at LEAST. What would Dean win?

[leftynyc]

43. I think you're wrong about that

Dean is the one who will get clobbered in the South. Worked for Planned Parenthood and comes from a state with civil unions. He'll get his head handed to him. Clark is more acceptable to Independents and the more liberal Pubbies. He'll do fine in the South.

[Field Of Dreams]

7. Check him out on the issues...

if you haven't already. You might actually see some stuff you like.

http://clark04.com/issues/

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

17. Why do you have to be rude?

Accusing newcomers of lying about their histories or motives is unnecessary.

[Julien Sorel]

19. If you'd clicked on this person's profile,

you would see that they have been a member since before July. So if this is part of some kind of 'organized infiltration,' it was planned many months ago.

I think another apology is in order.

[shawn703]

30. Actually been here since the beginning

Just don't get opportunity to post much. =)

[shawn703]

20. It's the bigger picture

In 2000, I agreed more with Nader's policies than Gore. If I voted by conscience, I would have voted for Nader. I voted for Gore in the end because of the Court problem. I didn't want to take the chance that Bush was going to get his judges through. In the end, Bush won but thanks to the Senate we have, he hasn't gotten the extremists through. If we can't get 41 votes there after 2004, this country is screwed.

[Myra]

35. shawn703, since you've been here for a while and seem to have chosen

(perhaps tentatively), I'm curious if there was a deciding factor
in your support of General Clark.

[shawn703]

39. It was always very close

Because the first time I really paid attention to Clark was when he was on Bill Maher's show earlier this year. I was very impressed with the man. The deciding factor for me is the Senate situation, and the danger I think we're in in getting swept out of the South and giving the Republicans a filibuster-proof Senate. I think with Clark being the nominee and campaigning alongside the Democratic Senate candidates in those states, we'd have a better chance of keeping those seats (and optimistically, regaining control of it.)

[clarknyc]

9. I understand your fear, but not your conclusion

I think that Clark would have more coattails for Democratic Senate candidates in the South to ride than Dean would have.

Why? Evidence? Links? Please?

[shawn703]

31. Can't provide any

But we saw how Bush's campaigning in '02 cost us the seats of Carnahan and Cleland, and helped Dole keep the N.C. seat in Republican hands. I think that Clark would be more popular in the South, and his campaigning for southern candidates would have a more positive effect than Dean's campaigning.

[msanger]

10. coattails; clark versus dean

I wonder who would have the longer coat-tails.

Dean has a lot of very committed folks working for him. In our state elections last month a lot of Dean folks were very involved in the local campaigns.

Clark has the "General" thing going for him.

I really don't know who would have the greatest impact in winning the Presidency, Senate and House.

But I tend to go with the passion.

[Justice]

42. What State?

You said - In our state elections last month a lot of Dean folks were very involved in the local campaigns.

Did it make a difference?

Also, just to point out that both Dean and Clark have committed people working for their campaigns.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Welcome!

:hi: :Bounce: Clark's a great man and will be a wonderful prez!

[clarknyc]

15. No disrespect intended, but...

He looks like the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz in that picture.

[Julien Sorel]

14. Another thinking person!

Dean's loss is the Democratic Party's gain.

[slinkerwink]

18. Clark has no coattails----did he even bother to get supporters to donate

money to a congressional race like Dean did with his supporters? Did Clark donate $50,000 to the Florida Democratic Party? No, Dean did---that proves to me that Dean has bigger coattails than Clark will ever have.

[SahaleArm]

22. Coattails are more than collecting money n/t

[slinkerwink]

32. and that's why Dean's congressional endorsements really help him

it's building him up as a leader of the Democratic party.

[SahaleArm]

36. Isn't that a circular argument? n/t

[Julien Sorel]

37. McGovern was the leader of the Democratic party.

So was Dukakis. Where were their coattails?

Coattails come, not from getting the endorsements of others, but by being so popular, that your endorsement of others helps them get elected. Bush demonstrated coattails in 2002. Dukakis demonstrated negative coattails -- he actually hurt Congressional and gubernatorial candidates -- in 1988. A candidate who has no natural appeal in the South is unlikely to have coattails there, and that's where 5 formerly Democratic senate seats are up for grabs.

[shawn703]

41. What I mean by coattails

Are people actually voting for a candidate because somebody they respect is campaigning for them. I think Clark would have more respect in these states where we can lose Senate seats if we're not careful.

[Jerseycoa]

21. Great!

Go over to the Clark Community Network and read up. Once you register, you can have your own blog. :hi:

[economic justice]

23. Great news!

Good to have you aboard!!

It's also good to see people logically thinking through their decision in more ways than pure emotion.

On to victory!!!!

[Bake]

26. Dean is Mr. New England/Park Avenue

That's not going to lengthen ANY coattails anywhere other than New England, the Dems' stronghold anyway.

Clark is Southern (read: Not Dukakis), unquestionably a PATRIOT (and by that I mean the Pukes can't question his patriotism even in some faux BS manner), brilliant, and Bush can just kiss his 4 stars!

Plus, Wes is not a loose cannon. The passion is there, it's just calm and under control.

Bake

[angee_is_mad]

29. Finally, someone making sense!!!!

[shawn703]

38. Ignore this post

Moved this to be a response to #35

[HFishbine]

40. Reasonable

You've come to a conclusion for a different candidate than I, but at least your evaluation was resonable. Good luck to you.