WHY IS BILE BECOMING THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

In honor of the reaction to the Bob Hope threads. My friend Armstead started this thread in the original DU board.

I immediately went looking for this thread since it underscores the culture in which behaviors may or may not be acceptable but become so increasingly commonplace, that just by their presence they become presumed to be acceptable.

I doubt Armstead will have any objection to the conversation being resurrected.

Armstead (10710 posts)
Feb-05-03, 00:19 AM (ET)
Why is bile becominge the national language?
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-03 AT 00:41 AM (ET)
After subjecting myself to Fox News the last couple of nights becaue of the guests, it was the last straw. It feels like this whole culture is going down the rathole fast in an orgy of hatred.

Have we become incapable of talking to each other, instead of at each other? When did disagreement become hatred? How did the country become so polarized?

Yes, it was ever thus to some degree. But has there been a time when it was this bad? When there would be such hatred between people who are much alike, except that one chose the left side of the fence and the other chose the right side?

I'm not talking about honest passion. That's what we're often lacking in the sphere of politics. But this symdrome goes beyond honest passion. It's something else. Darker and more primordial.


Most of the on-air media slugfests don't even need words. Just tones of voice and volume. Thoughts are never completed -- but that doesn't matter because thoughts are not what matter. He or she who yells the loudest and most viciously wins the argument....The tones of those who actually attempt to communicate ideas drowned out, sound wimpy, indecisive and defensive.

The right wing bully boys are largely responsible for initiating this climate. But it's gone far beyond that. It infests the whole culture.


It also has corroded all sides of the political spectrum. Even here at DU, sorry to say, we are often caught in the quicksand of this malicious malaise ourselves. Some of you may flame me for saying this -- but it's depressing that the response will be something to the effect that: "Of course we fight back. The other side are inhuman lowlifes. We are the enlightened ones who are tolerant. They are animals."

Maybe we tell ourselves we're fighting back. And it's true that we can't be lapdogs when the otehr side are Rotweillers.

But this cycle is leading to a chasm in this country, and I don't know that it will ever be bridged. Maybe it's a national collective breakdown.

We're still human often in daily life. People are still pleasant to each other in many circumstances. But there too, it's becoming more hair-trigger if you venture near politics. I recently had to give up on one of my longtime friends, a conservative who I used to be able to debate civilly. I can't even stand to see him anymore after he started shouting at the top of his lungs in a crowded bar and tore off the mask of his true beliefs: "GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT BY CONSERVATIVE WHITE CHRISTIAN MALES. WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO EVER ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING! EVERYONE ELSE IS JUST FREELOADING!"

It's all so sad and stupid. Maybe we're all just addicted to the adrenlin rush of conflict.

It's a shame because our public life should be energizing and positive. But now it often seems like the only way to deal with the public discourse is to tune it out....And we wonder why people have become apathetic.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=33680&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

[Skidmore]

1. Thank you for this post...

Your friend is correct, and it is sad that we too are adopting the speaking conventions of Newt.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Rushian linguistic programming, as I prefer to call it

[PunkinPi]

3. thank you NSMA,

for resurrecting this post. We need more civil discourse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Armstead deserves all credit

for creating it in the first place

[PunkinPi]

9. Here's to both of you!

:toast:

[indigo32]

4. it is very sad to see

sigh...
I suppose sharper minds than mine will have to lead us out of this mess. Me, I try and set a decent example (though I don't always suceed, I know), try and support things that counter that attitude, and sometimes just have the presence of mind to walk away from the anger as I feel it dragging me down with it.

[Rowdyboy]

6. Thanks for reminding me of this thread....

I didn't contribute back in February because others had already expressed my views as well or better than I could.

The lack of civility among our elected officials in part dates to Gingrich's desire to win a majority in the House. To defeat the entrenched Democrats he had to destroy the reputation of the House and he did that by throwing verbal "molotov cocktails". Moderate, reasonable Republican leaders like Bob Michel, Bob Dole and Howard Baker were replaced by Gingrich, Armey and Lott.

The loss of power by the Republican center meant the end of cooperative government. Dems and Repubs once socialized after hours and government "worked". Now they are enemies and we all suffer the results.

[buddhamama]

7. since Armstead

first posted that thread my experience with this behavior has increased.

and i am ashamed to say i have fallen victim to the bile.

i have a lot of anger and find that there certain issues that i cannot discuss without getting fired up, one of them being the stolen election. going so far as hanging up on a friend and calling him names like doink and thinking him a racist.

people are angry but afraid too,i think.
a sense of loss, lack of control.

a little too simplified but i do think that propaganda of pitting classes,races,etc.,etc., against one another is the cause and encouraged by said propaganda.

we are left in a state of anger and fear of the bogeyman who is going to come in the middle of the night and take away what is ours.

sadly, i do not know how to fix it.

[DagmarK]

8. Weighing in: We have lost conscience as a virtue

I have come to conclude is that the Freeper Fundie approach to politicking is not just reserved for repukes. It seems to be a disease in our society with the way all people seem to relate publicly. And the dems are far from immune. And the a-political are not immune from it either. We have a sick, hit below the belt, bullish society.....and it goes far beyond politics. Americans...overall.......collectively are really offensive people.....sorry to say. You know why Bush is such a big hit with so many people? It's because he mirrors our fucked up society. PERFECTLY! We are battling ourselves basically. And we aren't making much headway to improve - here on DU or in our communities. If Bush wins......we have lost the fight with our own selves. That's disgusting.

We used to ostracize people who acted and spoke outside the bounds of decency and conscience and accountability. Democracy does not mean that every single person can be a total asshole because democracy is characterized as all inclusive. Civilized societies have always had a big stake in making sure that the anti-social are ostracized. Sacrifice a few for the good of the collective. But here in the USA, our society has taken leave of that all too important role of applying peer pressure and consequences for really bad behavior.

In short, because we have lost our conscience along the way. It goes beyond political discussion into ALL aspects of our society. And I, too, have fallen to it. I think most have. Sometimes you meet up with some really senior people, and what I always notice is that they still maintain their dignity, modesty, politeness of days gone by. I wonder what they think about all of this?

[Psychoblues99]

10. Like the other posters here, nsma, I thank you for this resurrection

Someday, in some way, I hope to show you how sincere my gratitude is. Armstead has always been one of my very favorite posters here in DU even if I don't always agree.

Psychoblues

Dems Gotta Keep On Truckin'.,.,.,.,.,,.,,..,,.,.,.,.,.,,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,

[Terwilliger]

11. Democrats possess this attitude

"GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT BY CONSERVATIVE WHITE CHRISTIAN MALES. WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO EVER ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING! EVERYONE ELSE IS JUST FREELOADING!"

yet they're called Democrats

I heard a re-enactment of Mother Jones' speech when she marched with hundreds of children to T Roosevelt's house in Long Island. Mother Jones was not some mannered spinstress who talked very delicately about the horrors of mine life and the realities of child labor...she spoke truth to power and she didn't quit (she wasn't a damn Democrat either...she was what Carlos might call a quasi-Marxist...or worse!)

If people won't listen, how can you talk to them normally and expect them to change their attitude?

You think Tom Delay will be speechified into being a stand-up, tolerant, gregarious person? We either shout his shit down or people will continue to vote for him and others like him.

Should it have gotten this bad? Whether it should have or not is irrelevant...it is.

[DagmarK]

12. Terwilliger......People LISTEN when there is something worth listening to

And that's human nature.

You lead by good example......it's the only way.

"If people won't listen, how can you talk to them normally and expect them to change their attitude?"

Believe me, I don't know many people who have changed their opinion or stance because someone shouted their asses into the ground. It's never worked on me.

[Terwilliger]

26. ok then...bombs

normal persuausion is useless in this country

[SoCalDem]

13. THIRTY + years of HATE radio has done its job

When I was a teen, talk radio meant...a guy droning on and on about the garden fair and the rummage sale at the school, and the car wash at the pizza parlor.. Sometimes it was a couple of guys cracking silly jokes about stuff that was going on.. It was NOT the hateful diatribes that pass for "talk radio" now..

We (dems) closed our eyes and ears.. It was just as easy to "change the station" (stick your head in the sand)..but while we were changing stations, lots of disaffected folks out there were actually LISTENING to the haters on the air..

I can still remember being really pissed off when my "favorite" station would turn to a "talk radio" format, because I knew that I would not hear anything on it that appealed to me.. One less station to listen to.. This has gone on for so many years now, that there is hardly a station left that is NOT hate radio..

To control the people you have to control the MESSAGE.. Radio, newspapers, books, magazines, tv, cable..

The rightwingers with money saw their opportunity while we were "sleeping", and the just plain took over.. We are 30 years behind them and there is not really any way to "catch up" now.. We might get a toehold here and there, but the smaller local station format is resting with the DoDo and the dinosaur, and there is no way thet we will have the oppportunity to build slowly and cheaply like they did.. It takes major money now, and I think that our "leadership" still has its head in the sand..:(

[DagmarK]

14. We can't blame hate radio.........

If no one listened to that crap, it would have been gone, gone, gone by the wayside.

There was a market for it......and those hate mongers found it and capitalized on it.

No, we can't blame a radio or a tv station for OUR choices, decisions, etc.

Peer pressure is the only option.

[SoCalDem]

15. My point was that we did nothing to COUNTER it..

If you only hear ONE side for two generations, why would you doubt what you heard.. That is precisely the porblem we are having with the middle east.. WE are the ones who have been demonized for years in their popular culture and we did not see fit to counter their philosophy, we re-inforced it by ignoring what they were saying about us for all those years.. NOW it's come back to bite us in the ass..


People listened here because they liked to hear that there was actually someone else to BLAME for their own shitty lives.. The right blamed everything on US, and we did nothing comparable to counter it, so it became their "truth"..

The truly sad thing is that they bought a bill of goods and destroyed their own futures by believing that nonsense..:(

[KoKo]

22. Agree, So Cal, and until the Internet people like us didn't have a voice..

to fight back against the "hate media." Even now we are having a tough time getting heard.

It was all orchestrated with the media giveaways. None of us who saw it taking over the airwaves could do anything.

It's useless to ask "why do they hate?" There will always be people who hate who when given free control to vent will turn everything around them into their own hateful world. So, I don't buy the theory that people just wanted to listen to the Limbaugh/Coulter/etc. trash. It's forced down their throats and feeds on itself by providing excuses to angry folks to blame others for their problems. There's always an audience for that kind of psychological twisting.

[GAspnes]

16. I'm not sure I agree with the premise

Yes, there have been times of more gracious discourse, at least in public. Certainly the medium of television has become less pedantic and mannered as the number of channels has increased; but vitriolic public rhetoric has existed since the time of Socrates (who was accused of denying the Gods and ruining the young -- in other words, a Godless commie child-molester).

Or our own Founding Fathers (from http://www.ucsf.edu/synapse/archives/2002.02.28/johnadams.html reviewing David McCullough's "John Adams")

He (Adams) had no understanding for party politics, which was unfortunate, for this was the era of the birth of the first American political parties, the Federalists and the Republicans. The Republicans (ancestors of today's Democratic Party) were led by Jefferson, who became an outstanding party leader. The delicate philosopher of Monticello would prove to be a tough-as-nails politician, surreptitiously funding newspapers to attack his archrival in Washington's government, Alexander Hamilton, secretary of the Treasury and leader of the Federalists. Jefferson was quite ruthless in playing the political game, understanding that in this world, nothing meant so much as winning. One of the casualties of this period of savage party politics was the Adams-Jefferson friendship. Jefferson approved the Republican attack on Adams as one who believed a monarchy should be established in America, a charge that Adams furiously denied and that McCullough convincingly demonstrates was without merit. The sheer ferocity of the attacks brought on a rift in the relations between the two men; outwardly cordial, they began to write scathing criticisms about each other in their correspondence with political allies.

Religous invective goes back as far and has been far more awful.

However -- the fact that this has gone on since time immemorial doesn't say that this era isn't pretty awful. I just don't think it's *more* awful.

on edit: fix cite

[WoodrowFan]

17. Sad

I recently got an email from a buddy of mine which I haven't heard from in a couple years. He's coming to DC with his wife and he wants to get together. Now my friend has always been a republican and I've always been a Democrat. We got along fine but usually avoided politics except for a little good-natured teasing. He was my Big Brother in my fraternity. Once I stormed out of a pledge meeting because I thought I was about to be hazed (I had read my Dad's old pledge manual from a different frat and swore when I got to college I wouldn't EVER allow that s--t to happen to me!). My friend defended me and promised me that he'd never allow me to be hazed. He was right, he never did (my frat was unusual in that it was VERY anti-hazing. But then this was the 70s and we had mostly the theater guys and hippies; very cool and mellow house). I was an usher in his wedding and when I got married years later he was my best man.

Then came the 90s and the last time he and his wife visited they ranted about "Billery." Now I just plain don't want to visit with him anymore. I miss my good-natured friend I knew years ago and don't want to have a scene now with a falling out over his RW-radio hate points. (And no, I don't think he's moved to the left since I last saw him). I am still praying and wondering how to handle this but I know thing I do HATE, it's how the nastyness in national politics degrade us all.........

[theboss]

18. I'm reminded of the scene in Malcolm X

Do you remember the scene in Malcom X where Malcolm visits Elijah Muhammad before becoming his national spokesman. In it, Elijah takes two glasses. The first is pure, the second is filled with ink. He explains that if you give a thirsty man the dirty glass, he will drink it if he is desperate and that is his only choice. But if you give him a choice, he will take the pure glass.

I do think political debate in this country started to go into a tailspin with the rise of Gingrich and the Right's cataclysmic reaction to Clinton in the early 90s. But I don't think the Democrats countered properly. An attack dog like Carville has his place, but I am not sure if it is as the chief spokesperson for the Left.

Basically, I don't think we need to follow our opponents into the gutter. I think we need to respond and respond strongly. But name-calling, accusations, etc just turn me off.

[Terwilliger]

27. WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE

I mean, I certainly appreciate your position...but your attitude will be the losing way. If we cant shout down the media, we never will. If we cant shout down Republicans, we never will. If we stand around patting ourselves on the back for our Emily Post manners, Bush will win in 04.

[Lexingtonian]

19. very true

The best I've come up with is that we are now running a certain kind of recapitulation of the Civil War and the movement of which Gingrich is/was the popular leader is the Secessionist side. Remember that Henry Hyde said in 1999 that we were in a 'culture war'. At stake is control of so much wealth and power that conflict was not going to be avoided. And it feels like a real civil war, with fathers up in arms against sons and daughters, friendships broken over seeming trivia, many work environments politically poisoned, partisans of each side at this point rarely having friends on the other side.

A good thing is, nonetheless, that the overall choice was made to keep it as bitterest argument of national politics rather than resort to violence. Though Tim McVeigh did not see it that way. But we see all the extremism, the ignoring of the (intrinsic) importance of the real human being in favor of the idols proposed, which takes the form of nasty incivility.

Both sides now do resemble their Civil War counterparts. The Right has, like the South, organized all of itself for war, suppressed all internal dissent, decided it needs a reputation for invincibility and viciousness. But it has a smaller base and has little support worldwide. The Left has, like the North, been slow to organize or find its effective leaders, has taken greater losses, has dawdled and continues to dawdle, but insists on being more than a social machine given fully to warfare and greed.

The years of the Civil War have some correspondence with recent Presidential terms, the elder Bush's term being the first. The bad news for their side is that this is the fourth, and it really is going as 1864 did- a hard winter for the North and initially breakdown of its spring campaign almost everywhere due to Southern fervor and built-up reserves, but then a grinding down and decisive destruction of the South's power.

We're going to have a couple more years of this incivility at a personal level that is driven by the greater political conflict at a group level. And there may be another spike or two or three of it as conservatives feel hit by macroscopic defeats. But I think we're looking at a disintegration and sense of defeat on their side. I'm not sure that makes them all that much better as company, but it should end their edge and bad behavior in public.

[tomp]

20. two points.

to my recollections, we are reliving the vietnam era. it was this bad then. we did not come to a national consensus and the whole thing just sort of festered and the infection blossomed again, including a fresh quagmire to kindle the flashbacks. that's what you get for not thoroughly addressing the problem the first time.

the nature of the problem then and now is that the right is totally irrational and immoral, the left (and i don't mean "moderate" dems) is totally rational and moral, and the media allows the idea that these are equal opposing positions. they are not. the left is right (thought you'd like that) and the struggle will continue until the right goes away.

[EAMcClure]

21. Cultural slide to the reactionary

If you want someone's soul, distract them with an imaginary enemy. Make that enemy pervasive, ubiquitous, and all-powerful... save for yourself. Only you have the power to defeat this enemy, this Satan, those Jews, those liberals, those poor who want to take and give nothing in return, those terrorists who hate your freedoms, those sex peddlers, those homosexuals, those drug making farmers, those drug dealing minorities...

Once they believe that only you have the answer, give them the answer. Don't give them the answer before they believe that you have the power. They won't believe your answer until they believe in your power. The answer is: GIVE ME YOUR POWER, LEAVE EVERYTHING TO ME.

Once they believe that only you have the power, they will defend you to the death. Once they belive that only you have the righteous authority to combat the pervasive enemy, they will only listen to what you have to say. Anyone who questions or contradicts your authority will be punished by the very people who have entrusted you with their safety, their souls.

You will be mythologised. Given godly attributes. Your mistakes will be forgotten, forgiven.

Trust me, this power is maintained by fear. All the strong reactionary language, the diatribe, is a cover for fear... the fear of these enemies who seek to undermine your way of life and take everything away from you.

Eric

[linazelle]

23. Prelude to Civil War

I am speechless when I listen to some of the name calling and personal attacks--there are no boundaries. In order to even join the debate, you are almost required to be as nasty as they are.

The irony I find hardest to swallow is that the right wingers are supposed christians who advocate morality and the prime perpetrators of this malicious behavior. What example are they setting for our children with brainwashing, pictures of the dead and incessant personal attacks?

If things are this bad now, God help this nation in the future. I truly believe if it isn't nipped soon, we are will see the current generation at each others' throats in a civil war.

[Armstead]

24. Gee I'm pretty eloquent aren't I?

Okay, okay..

Anyhow, thanks for ressurecting this, NSMA, in this season for summer reruns.

Ir does seem appropriate right now, with all of the Hopela going on here earlier. We can't get so shrill and dogmatic that we have to engage in such behavior towards those we disagree with.

[OneBlueSky]

25. You Have To Be Carefully Taught

You have to be taught
Before it's too late.
Before you are six or seven or eight
to hate all the people your relatives hate.
You have to be carefully taught.

Oscar Hammerstein, 1949, "South Pacific"

[tom_paine]

28. Arntead is right. NMSA, you are right.

But the spiral has begun. I don't believe there is anything that can stop it, even now. As if the Busheviks and monsters would ever allow that!

As someone who has embraced the New Culture (sick of being a doormat for Totalitarian Scum, not wanting to go out like my relatives in Germany, 1942 did, realizing that a point has been passed) and is one pissed off m*therf*cker, let me say that it IS a mistake to think "I'm the enlightened one. I'm the tolerant one."

We're ALL human beings. Which means we are all to some degree dumbasses and hypocrites. Lose sight of that, and yes, the way is open for you to do ANYTHING.

That's why I love the Founding Fathers, who clearly realized this. They knew that not even THEY were fit to wield unchecked power.

That thought, is almost without equal in human history. That thought is why we still have this pleasant twilight when any other country would already be building Gulags and undergoing hideous bloodletting.

Because the Fouding Fathers strcutured the nation believeing that all humans were dumbasses and hypocrites, so they gave these fools (us fools) sort of "Democratic-Republic for Dummies" which, considering human history, is the only one which could possibly work.

It is sad. But I see no useful alternative. Turn the other cheek and see what happens.

As Hunter S. Thompson said, "The hogs are in the tunnel."

I will NOT turn the cheek anymore. I will NOT patiently combat monstrous evil (not so much their ideas as their Nazi-style of propaganda implementation) with a sweetly reasoned argument.

There comes a time when such things are ludicrously piteous, like a German Jew trying to persuade the Nazis of the sanctity of life so that they'll let him go.

We are just beginning to enter that time. God Help us as it advances.