NYC to open GLBT High school

[thom1102]

Named the Harvey Milk High School, it will have 100 GLBT students and will be the first of it's kind in the country. The school will open in the fall. Guess Bloomberg's school reform isn't all bad after all.

[caduceus]

1. Huh?

As far as I'm aware, this has been around for several years.

[thom1102]

3. I just heard this report on WNYC am.

I don't live in the city, so I don't know, but WNYC is usually a valid source of news.

[Stephanie]

59. You're right, this has been around for years in NYC

Maybe this is another GLBT high school, but there has been one in Manhattan for years.

Maybe a link for the story?

[thom1102]

62. The follow up report said that

The Harvey Milk School was an experimental two classroom school for GLBT youth, but now it is being an official stand alone public high school and undergoing a 3.2 million dollar upgrade paid for by the city to accomodate first 100, and later 170 students.

[AnAmerican]

2. Something about this bothers me

Is the GLBT community in NYC pushing for this? If so, great.
If they are not it would seem that someone is interested in creating a situation where {sarcasm} our "good" kids won't have to be exposed to those types.{/sarcasm}

[thom1102]

4. I don't know if the GLBT community is pushing for it

But I think it is a good idea for this reason: now these kids don't have to worry about school being a hostile environment for them because of their sexuality. I see the concern that you point out, but NYC is usually much more progressive than that.

[DarkPhenyx]

9. Absolutely horrid idea.

I am pro-GBLT, and I am completely, totally, and utterly opposed to this idea.

In order to avoid spending the next hour posting a rant I'm going to stop here.

[thom1102]

14. All I can say is,

If I were 16 again, and comfortable enough with my sexuality that I could come out, I would love the opportunity to go to a school like this. I am sure they aren't seperating out GLBT students and forcibly transfering them into this school, I'm sure it is more like the School for the Performing Arts, where students choose to go there rather than to a regular high school.

[DarkPhenyx]

20. As a private school, fine. No problem with that.

As a publically funded institution? No way.

This is going to start getting us back into the Citadel / Meredith College arguments.

Think on this too. Unlike the School of the Performing Arts the GBLT school is not providing an education that couldn't be accomplished in the same way at a "regular" school.

[thom1102]

24. Please see post 23

.

[DarkPhenyx]

27. OK, I looked at post #23

So what is your point?

I disagree with the argument. It is based on fear and ignorance. Instead of running and hiding we need to stand and "fight". Don't forget this also opens the door for all sorts of publically funded special interest schools. We really, really, do not want this.

[thom1102]

33. Not everyone is strong enough to stand and fight all the time.

My argument is based on reality. GLBT kids face violence on a daily basis. Besides, because of the secrecy involved in sexuality, kids have to listen to their peers call each other names like "Fag, Fairy, queer, etc." In many cases, GLBT kids internalize these comments and the cycle of self hatred begins. If these kids have a positive environment where they are the norm rather than the oddity, they have a chance to build a positive self image and have a chance to finish their education in a safe environment.

As far as opening the door to other special interest schools, I think that GLBT's are sufficiently unique to warrant their own school without opening that door.

[DarkPhenyx]

35. My arguemnt is based in reality too.

What is the one thing, above all else, the GLBT community wants? To be consedered normal. TO be treated just like everyone else. Having a seperate school is not going to help accomplish that. Running and hiding behind walls is not going to help at all.

[thom1102]

39. no, but here they will be able to address

another issue important to GLBT community, building the self esteem of young GLBT teens, and providing a safe environment for them.

[DarkPhenyx]

42. There are better ways to do that.

Better places.

[thom1102]

48. There may be some other "better places"

But in today's society, where you have to have a portfolio equivilent to a seasoned professional to get into a good college, the most "efficient place" would be a school that caters to their special needs.

[DarkPhenyx]

76. Wrong.

As they don't have "special needs" they don't need a special school.

[foreigncorrespondent]

216. Let me put it to you this way.

You tell me why LGBT kids should be pushed into what is predominantly a "straight" school system?

We deserve the right to hang with our own kind without fear of being beaten on the way home.

I think it is a brilliant idea and I salute NYC for doing this. And naming it after Harvey Milk, who is a queer hero in MY community simply leaves me speechless.

We are normal people, and yes we want to be treated like everyone else, but we also want to be able to live in peace without fear.

If you are straight then please don't presume you know what the LGBT community wants, because believe me, unless you are queer, you have no bloody idea, apart from what you have been told, or read.

You have no bloody idea what it is like to walk in the shoes of a queer person. You walk out the street, you can't hold the hand of your loved one, because you fear being bashed.

When I was in San Francisco visitng with my partner (no we aren't together, blame your discriminating immigration system on that) the only place I truly felt comfortable, where I was able to be myself and hold her hand in public was in the district known as the Castro. Because that is a queer area. We have a right to be bloody well comfortable you know.

A queer school is brilliant, at least then the kids can be comfortable, if they fall in love, they can hold the hand of their loved one, without any fear what so ever.

[QC]

36. And don't you think it is just a bit too easy

to point to some terrified 14-year-old and say "Stop being such a pantywaist! You need to get out there and fight!"

It's easy to be sanguine about other people's suffering.

[DarkPhenyx]

40. No, it isn't "just too easy".

I've told 18 yo men to "get off your sorry ass and go get shot". That isn't easy either.

I've told 16 yo boys to quit crying and get your ass up that rope.

I've brow beat a 23 yo woman into stopping feeling sorry for herself becasue she had issues. She thanks me often for doing that.

If you run and hide, If you remove yourself and become an isolationist, if you curl up and "die" you are letting them win. Pure and simple you are letting your enemy win. Giving them control over you.

So yeah, stop being such a pantywaist and get out there and fight. Then you back the young individual up, bandage their wounds and kick back out into the battle when they are ready.

[thom1102]

44. That's fine

But can you be there for ALL these kids?

Can you provide a bandage for all the kids in NYC who have no other safe haven? For kids whose parents have disowned them, whose peers scorn them, whose teachers and administrators don't care, or any combination of the above? A school where the unique needs of GLBT students can be addressed is, imho, a great idea. They will still have to deal with their neighbors, bullies, and various other bigots, but at least at school they can learn how to handle them effectively, and can learn in a safe environment.

[DarkPhenyx]

46. It isn't my job to be there for all those kids.

My personal song might be "Kryptonite" but I am not Superman. Tell me, are you capable of doing that?

Your argument smacks of segregationist logic you know.

[thom1102]

49. I am not capable of doing that

on my own, but I am not advocating the "go get shot" mentality. I am going to school to become a high school physics teacher, and I hope to be able to make a difference in this area. I plan to do my part, and I do think that a school where trouble GLBT teens can study safely is a good idea. If you think that is segregationist, well fine, I disagree, since the vast, overwhelming majority of GLBT students in NYC would still be integrated through out the rest of the NYC public school system.

[DarkPhenyx]

77. And there you hit on the point.

These kids don't need a special school. Particualrly not one suppoerted by the State. If it is possible for otehr GLBT students to make it in a ergular school then it is obvious it can be done. If that is the case what these other students need is not a new school, but better counseling and guidance. Removing tehm from a regular school isn't going to do anything to help them prepare for reality when they leave taht school.

[thom1102]

91. Obviously it is POSSIBLE to make it in through a regular high school...

The problem is they do it less successfully than their straight counterpart. As we noted previously, GLBT teens commit suicide at a rate 3 times that of their straight counterparts, rates of alcoholism and drug abuse in the GLBT community exceed those in the general populace, they have acceptance issues beyond those of regular teens, and often lack accepting, or supportive families, or families that are equipped to deal with the unique issues they come to the table with.

We as a society have systematically failed to recognize that these students have needs above those which a regular high school is normally equipped to handle.

You are right, these students need more counseling and guidance, and the best place to get these is through a school experience that can provide them.

[DarkPhenyx]

97. Compare these rates...

...to the rates for any class of student that has a "discrimination factor". Say those that are fat, or too thin, or any of a few dozen things that get you picked on in school. Let's compare apples to apples here. Their acceptance issues are no more complex than any otehr teen that is "differnt", and not all that much different than a "normal" teen. Whatever the hell normal is. The only thing really going against them is they have difference which still has a sizeable social stigma attached to them. So does the average pagan. In our muscle bound society so does the brainy kid.

These students have no more special need than any other student with similar issues.

[thom1102]

105. Well the issues are more complex.

Fat or thin kids differences are evident to everyone and much more difficult to hide. While fat kids definitely have their share of harassment, and issues of acceptance, most parents of fat kids don't reject their kids for being fat.

The only thing really going against them is they have difference which still has a sizeable social stigma attached to them

You say that like this is a small thing. Only in the last few weeks has homosexual sex become LEGAL in 13 states.

These students have no more special need than any other student with similar issues

And here is where I think we have our fundamental difference of opinion. I do think that GLBT kids have more special needs than their straight counterparts.

[DarkPhenyx]

106. Name one special need...

...that is different from their fellow students.

[thom1102]

118. Let me see..

Lack of parental support, lack of community acceptance, tacit approval of their abuse (physical, mental, and verbal).

[DarkPhenyx]

123. The lack of parental support...

and community acceptance sounds like every teen I deal with on a regular basis. There is also a tacit approval of abuse for a great many other sub-groups in school by one authority figure or another.

These are also not special needs of the individual but failing of the system.

[bearfartinthewoods]

190. ok, how are GLB kids in NYC any different than those in Podunk PA?

if anything, the city has a thriving community inlike most small towns. why can't these NYC kids make it without special status?

[ronnykmarshall]

192. Runaways?

One good thing that school would do is help runnaways. A lot of gay kids, drop out of school and run off to big cities. If a city like NYC, LA or SF might have a school where gay kids felt like they could go back to school not deal with the harrassment, we might find more kids not dropping out of school all together.

[DarkPhenyx]

193. Now that is an excellent point.

It still shouldn't be funded by the government. It should still be a private school.

[dsc]

213. There are lots of things that

big cities have which small towns don't. I fail to see why the fact we can't help all GLBT students means we shouldn't help any.

[bearfartinthewoods]

181. exact;y........

a charming, beautiful GLB is miles ahead of an awkward, pimply, fat kid.

this idea really troubles me.

[foreigncorrespondent]

220. I find your way of thinking simply appalling.

Typical straight person who thinks they know what is best for the LGBT community. But you know what, in the other thread about this which got locked in LBN, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=38206&mesg_id=38701&page=2">Sapphocrat said it best:

Sapphocrat (449 posts)
28. First relief, and then anger...

I teared up when I saw this. I would have done almost anything to have gone to a queer school. Perhaps, if I hadn't felt like utter filth compared to all those ultra-perfect, ultra-straight cheerleaders and jocks, I might have actually attended class once in a while.

Now comes the anger:

I am utterly appalled at the insensitivity in some of the responses I see in this thread. I'd like to see everyone's reaction after a lifetime of slurs, taunts, physical threats (oh, yes, boys and girls, it's not just gay teenage boys who get the shit kicked out of them), ostracization... none of which ends after high school. High school is only where it begins in earnest.

"Harvey Milk High School" -- how fitting, and yet some of you just gloss right over the significance of the name. I don't recall the last time I read about the increase in hate crimes against "overweight" people. I don't recall ever hearing about an "overweight" student being tied to a fence post and beaten to death in the middle of Wyoming. I don't recall many "overweight" couples being burned out of their homes because somebody didn't like their "lifestyle." (Does anyone need more examples?) Gee, ya think maybe equating obesity with homosexuality is the most ridiculous apples-to-oranges comparison I've heard all week?

As for discrimination:

The bleeding-heart liberal in me agrees that all public schools must be open to all children. However, the lesbian in me who has been denied all the privileges you have taken for granted (as "rights") all your life says this:

So what if, by some quirk of law, this school were only open to queer kids? YOU end all state-sanctioned discrimination against gay people in this country -- in housing, employment, adoption, immigration, and marriage -- and THEN you will have a basis upon which to cry "discrimination."

Until then, it's just so much more of the same damned double standard, in which it's perfectly okay to deny services to queers -- and the vast majority of straight folks don't raise an eyebrow until they get a taste of the same shit we've been forced to eat all our lives.

My apologies to the thinking heteros reading this. Believe me, I don't categorize all straights as blind and insensitive; most of you (especially on DU) do understand what I'm saying. It's only a small minority who appear desperate to maintain the status quo of "acceptable" discrimination.

P.S. Yes, I'm well aware that the state of New York is slightly ahead of the pack when it comes to equal rights for queers, but that is not my point -- and NY state only eight months ago finally expanded its antidiscrimination law, in housing and employment, to include sexual orientation, after letting legislation languish 30 years.

[bearfartinthewoods]

147. would this also apply to developmentally challenged kids?

they also face ridicule and torment.

bye bye mainstreaming hello retard hi. </sarcasm>

[thom1102]

149. Except, of course, that developmentally

Challenged kids who can't be mainstreamed have public facilities (or the public pays for their education in a private facility), where they can still get an education to a level that is appropriate to their level of ability.

[DarkPhenyx]

13. So let's put blacks in seperate schools...

...to "protect" them. While we're at it let's put them into walled and defended cities so they are safe from all those bad white people. Then we can put the hispanics, chinese, canadians, et. al. into their own little prisons and forget about them.

If we all "just want to get along" then isolationism isn't going to help with that.

Sorry folks. The rant kinda sliped out.

[QC]

21. My understanding is that kids choose to go to this school.

So comparing it to segregation, concentration camps, Manzanar, etc. is not very accurate.

[DarkPhenyx]

29. True, bit of an exageration.

But the concept is still valid. What if they choose to form an exclusive community where they can "feel safe". No straight neighbors. Only GBLT folks. Nice and safe and secure?

Discrimination conducted by any group against anyother group is still discrimination. Self segregation is still segregation.

[QC]

31. "No straight neighbors. Only GBLT folks. Nice and safe and secure?"

A lot of people do that--retreat into the Castro or Boys Town or WeHo. It doesn't appeal to me much, but I can definitely understand the attraction of being in a place where you are not constantly having to watch your back.

[DarkPhenyx]

32. So, accepting that argument....

...it isn't far from that to putting up guard posts at the entrances. MAybe a gun tower someplace...hey, begining to look like a castel to me. All you need is a flag on top now.

The desire is understandable. It is not acceptable though.

[QC]

34. Have you ever lived in an environment where

you constantly had to watch your back?

That's daily life for most homos in America. It ranges from simple name-calling and harassment to violence, and most of us learn early on that authority figures--from the homeroom teacher right on up to the police and courts--will most likely not be there for us.

A natural response is to build your own community, and that's not entirely a bad thing. It was particularly necessary in the not-too-distant past, when we often had to create our own families to replace the ones who rejected us, our own churches, our own neighborhoods, etc.

And I have to admit that there are times when I like to be among my own people, though it is getting increasingly hard. Even in my smallish Alabama town, the local gay bar has become quite popular with shrieking sorority girls and their frightened boyfriends, who clutch them for dear life, like a talisman to ward away the demons of sodomy. Sometimes it's like being at a Chi Omega chapter meeting, and frankly I do not like being treated as a curiosity or a means by which people can show how open-minded and enlightened they are.

Does that make me a separatist? I don't think so, because I think it is quite natural for people to want to spend at least some time with those who have common experiences, interests, etc.

[DarkPhenyx]

37. Yes, I have.

as to the rest of your post it is simply self justification and rationalizing for your position.

[QC]

41. Tell me more.

I would be very interesting in learning the grounds on which you presume to deny my experience and lecture me on how I should be a good little faggot.

[DarkPhenyx]

43. Sorry.

I am not in the habit of spilling my guts on a public board. You can choose to listen or not. That is your choice. I will say I have more than enough background for this discussion.

[QC]

47. "You can choose to listen or not."

One could say the same of you, actually.

You've got two people here trying to tell you about their experiences that are relevant to the discussion, and you refuse to listen. You are so convinced that you know what is best for us that you simply cannot imagine that someone else might possibly have some insights into what is being discussed here. We should just shut up and take your tough love, right?

Wrong. I long ago got over "pro-GLBT" straights who know what is best for me and assume some right to tell me how I should live my life. Frankly, I have no desire for "allies" whose contempt for me oozes from every pore. I prefer an honest homophobe--he doesn't feel the need to try to pass off his sense of superiority as "concern."

[DarkPhenyx]

73. Prehaps they cannot imagine that they are wrong?

It is horribly amusing you are assume the I am either straight and/or a closet homophobe simply becaseu I don't agree with you. You don't have an argument against what I have said, so you resort to naem calling and inuendo. How sad.

[QC]

189. No, dear.

I assume that you are clueless on the issue because you have spent the better part of a day giving every indication of being clueless on the issue.

And please don't flatter yourself that you have presented any kind of argument here. You have done nothing more than make false analogies, blithely dismiss other people's experiences and concerns because they do not fit your ideological obsessions, endlessly repeat unsupported assertions, and then play the martyr when people do not fall at your feet and praise your boundless wisdom.

[DarkPhenyx]

194. that was almost amusing.

nice condesending lilt there on teh end.

[QC]

198. Thanks!

That's a genuine compliment, coming from the local expert on smug condescension.

[DarkPhenyx]

201. Oh I'm the international expert.

Get it right sweetness.

[QC]

204. "You have ugly talents, Martha."

[Sapphocrat]

228. When you refuse to provide any information...

...what do you expect anyone to think?

If you are gay, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that you're of the self-loathing variety. I hope you're not; I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's not a pretty place to be.

But, again, unless you "spill your guts," it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone with such strong feelings about the matter is neither A) gay with a severe case of internalized homphobia, nor B) straight and homophobic.

I accuse you of neither. I am simply telling you how you're coming across to a lifelong homo you're managing to offend with every single post you write.

However, the burden of proof (that you are neither) is on you.

[Rowdyboy]

51. As someone who was harrassed daily....

in Junior High, I seriously doubt you know what you're talking about. If you really knew what it was like, you could never make the blanket generalizations you make.

And I had it good compared to the more obvious gay kids.

[DarkPhenyx]

74. As I pointed out earlier....

...you really don't know anything about me. How about trying to use a little logic to argue the point instead of resorting to belittling comments and "you just don't understand" falicies.

[Christian73]

79. With all due respect, Dark Phenyx...

if you refuse to share some sort of information that would make us out gay men see your argument in a better light, then you leave us with no choice but to assume the worst, which, in this case I wouldn't say is anti-gay, but merely ignorance.

Perhaps you're very informed about growing up gay or perhaps did yourself, but without knowing that your arguments come across as a bit shallow and not very well thought out.

I was out in high school (around 16) and actually coming out defused a lot of the "sissy, homo" bullshit that I was getting before coming out. I don't recommend it for everyone but I had a group of friends who were both very supportive and very protective.

JMHO

[DarkPhenyx]

81. My being straight or gay...

...shouldn't make any difference as to the validity of my arguments. IF teh listener assumes that ebcasue I am not gay I cannot have a valid opinion on this topic then they are just as bigoted as teh people who are homo-phobic. Don't think gays can be bigoted? Ask someone who is bi.

[thom1102]

93. It isn't a matter of valid opinions...

But without having experienced the horrors of growing up as a GLBT youth, you're argument is purely academic. It is pretty easy to cast a judgement that "this is wrong!" "they should suffer!" "other people have done it, why can't they?" when "they" isn't "me." If you are gay or bi or trans, (please note throughout this thread I have refered to the GLBT community, not singling out bi or trans) then it means that you may have experienced some of this kind of bigotry yourself. Frankly, I believe that most people who are not GLBT can not even comprehend what it is like, for reasons that are stated at various points in this thread, to grow up GLBT.

[DarkPhenyx]

98. And having grown up as a GLBT teen...

...it is entirely possible that your argument is entirely too emotional. You don't have enough distance from the issue to make a rational choice about what would be best.

Also, you are assuming again that I have no basis for understanding. I do not have to have been GLBT to have an understanding of this issue. Like every other minority class you are assuming that you have a lock on the "truth about being me". You are demonstarting a view that is just as narrow minded and bigoted as the people you are railing against. You are makign assumptions about people w/o having any better data than those who discriminate against GLBT's. You are assuming that, simply because someone disagree with you, that they don't have a better solution.

[thom1102]

107. See I never said that,

Never implied that. Yes, I may be too close to the issue to be objective about it, but that doesn't mean that solution doesn't have merit that you refuse to admit. I (and others) have ceded that this is far from a perfect solution, but we feel that there is a definite benefit for the 100-170 students who are unable to continue their education in the regular public school system. As a society, we have committed to free public education for all, not those strong enough to survive the public high school.

[DarkPhenyx]

112. It isn't a solution at all.

Not even close. These students are already getting an education, or at least have access to it. So that agrument isn't going to work.

not those strong enough to survive the public high school.

So you do believe in vouchers then.

[thom1102]

124. Not at all

But I beleive in alternate education programs, not only for GLBT students, but students for whom the regular public education system is failing. East Hartford CT has public alternate high school which workd with students who are not succeeding in the regular public high school, and it works really well.

[DarkPhenyx]

128. and following this to it's logical conclusion...

...any group that "needs a special learning environment" shold ahve one funded by the state. any group that can show a pressing "need" is entitled to it. Exclusion and isolation instead of inclusion and community. This solves our problem how?

[thom1102]

135. Actually it is inclusion...

inclusion in the public education system rather than being cast aside. It says that even though you require special attention to complete your education, we are committed to providing you that special attention because you matter as a member of our community.

[DarkPhenyx]

157. But they don't need special attention.

and we are still commited to their education even if we don't give them their own school.

In fact if we give them their own school we are more commited to them becasue they are "special". That isn't fair to the rest of the students.

[thom1102]

163. If the option is dropping out

or providing them their own school, and we choose to let them drop out, we aren't committed to their education.

[DarkPhenyx]

166. You miss the third option.

Sticking with school, and not letting them force you out. If you quit they win. You run away, they win. I don't like letting them win.

[thom1102]

169. But some kids aren't that strong.

Some of these kids can't take the constant abuse hurled at them. SOme kids don't have the support network to help them get through these dark times. Those are the kind of kids who this school would help. What you are advocating is very much Darwinian Model.

[DarkPhenyx]

173. As I mentioned somewhere down below...

...life is an exercise in Darwinianism. Not all the screaming and ranting in the world is going to change that.

I've been "saving" people for sevral years now. I'm pretty good at it. I'm paraphrase a quote "I'm not the best psycholigist out there, but I'm the best one I know practicing w/o a license." One thing I've learned. You can't "save" everyone. You sure as hell can't save them if they give up, or simply don't want to be saved. Not even Jesus was that good. We do our best. We try our hardest. Sometimes you just lose one.

How about this. How about you take that 3 million dollars the state is using to renovate the school and hire some really good counselors for the already existing schools. Ones that can work with all the students. Invest it in some really good training for teachers, and hire more teachers, so maybe we can catch the savable ones before it gets too far. That's all the savable ones. Not just the homosexual ones. Hey, maybe that's the right idea. Really try to leave no child behind. Now taht's a thought.

[TolstoyAndy]

237. Violence-free environment...

...is not a special priveledge.

Come to think of it, this is something all schools should offer - a place where people who are different (or not) can express themselves and be free of threats and/or violence.

In a perfect world, Phenyx, you are on the money. But what do we do with the dismembered and corrupt system we have, which lets these kids take punch after insult and says nothing can be done, or worse, that the kids deserve it?

What is wrong with protecting some of the most vulnerable members of our high school population?

If the "authorities" in charge won't protect GLBT kids, then what kind of morality is it to leave them in there to fend for themselves against impossible odds?

I think this school could be a step forward. Later, we can help the nerds.

[Christian73]

94. You fail to see my point

which is that in the absense of other information, your opinion seems (as others have said) kneejerk and w/o merit. If you didn't grow up gay or lesbian, you couldn't possibly know what it was like for someone like me who was harrassed from pre-Kindergarten until college on an nearly daily basis. I was spat upon, attacked physical more times than I can count, two of my (straight?) peers tried to rape me in the boys bathroom when I was 9 years old (same age as them) and I could go on.

[DarkPhenyx]

99. Why can't I understand?

Are gays the only people picked on in school? Are lesbians the only one raped in teh bathroom? Are bi students the only ones that get spit on? Are transgendered students the only ones who stand out in teh crowd making theemselves an obvious target for other students who are having problems "fitting in"?

[thom1102]

114. No one said that either.

All anyone here has said it that GLBT students experience systematic discrimination, and that the most vulnerable of those students may do better in a situation where they are among only other GLBT students.

[Liberal Veteran]

117. And among a faculty that is sure to be accepting....

...of the challenges faced by GLBT youth.

The faculty at this school isn't likely to tell a gay student to be "less gay" or "less flamboyant".

[DarkPhenyx]

125. Actually it was said here.

Several times. It was stated several times that I am unable to understand. Therefore I assume that it must be because if I am not gay I am therefore completely immune to being picked on at school.

[thom1102]

132. No one said that either.

It was said that you are "unable to understand," but not that you were completely immune to being picked on at school. Tons of kids get picked on for plenty of reasons other than being gay, but there is a certain insidiousness, and hatefulness that goes beyond picking on, say, the fat kid, where gay kids are concerned. With the fat kid there is always the (sometimes) unspoken "well, I wouldn't pick on him if he would just lose some weight." With gay kids, they are a challenge to the abusers own sexuality. I have spent a lot of time with GLBT youth (there is a conference of students and educators here in CT every year, that I have volunteered) and their concerns are truly unique.

[DarkPhenyx]

167. You were never fat were you? n/t

n/t

[thom1102]

170. YES I WAS AND AM!!!

I was 200#'s by the end of high school. Not morbidly obese, but size 38 pants, and I wore husky clothes until I started wearing mens sizes in junior high school. I was a fat pimply gay kid in high school. So I have a bit of insight into THAT realm as well.

[DarkPhenyx]

174. yup...you do.

my sister was fat. I know for a fact that the kids were now less cruel and biting because she was straight.

[Sapphocrat]

227. Pssst, Thom...

There's also a difference between being "unable to understand" and "refusing to understand."

The former is addressable, while the latter is usually incurable.

I liken it to a gay person who refuses to even attempt to acknowledge white-on-black discrimination; i.e., "Blacks think they have it bad? Well, let me tell you...!

In any case, I do appreciate your efforts. Sincerely, I do. I wish there had been more people like you around when I was a (gay) teen being told my concerns were not at all unique.

[foreigncorrespondent]

223. Excuse me!

But unless you walk in the shoes of a queer person who is living in a straight world, then you don't have any form of a valid argument here.

Does the name Matthew Sheperd mean anything to you? Do you want to see more Matthew Sheperd stories on your local nightly news?

Because that is the argument you are being presented with by every single queer person who is taking part in this discussion.

As for your bi remark. Yes I am queer, no I have no time for bi's, but that is my choice. If you wat to know why so many in the queer community hate bi's then just bloody well ask.

A lot have been hurt by bi's who like to present themselves as being queer. They begin relationships with the "so called" queer person, only to find out down the track that the person they are in love with is actually bi and dumping them for someone of the opposite sex.

Get your facts sorted out before bothering to comment on LGBT issues.

[bearfartinthewoods]

178. your experience is not universally applicable to all GLBs

if i were in such a situation and i were gay, i'd move.

[soleft]

53. It's totally possible that straight kids would want to go there too

Because any school which would be open enough to be gay friendly would be tolerant of other kids who just feel like they don't fit in the mainstream.

As long as the school doesn't exclude kids who aren't gay, I don't have a problem with this.

[QC]

54. There are straight kids at Walt Whitman School in Dallas.

Some wanted to be in an environment more supportive of difference, some had gay or lesbian parents, etc.

[SoCalDem]

56. Very BAD idea here, folks..

This opens the door to "others" opening schools where THEY will feel more "comfortable"..

We HAD those kind of schools not that many years ago... get my drift??

High school is usually one of two things.. Wonderful or Horrible. There is very little in-between..

There were surely gay people in my high school, but I do not recall them or their lifestyle ever being an issue.. If they were there, I sure did not know who they were...

School was just a place where we went to learn stuff.. This was Kansas in the 60's.. Times were different then, but this idea they have coome up with is not a good one, IMHO

[QC]

57. We're not talking about being "comfortable."

We're talking about not having the snot beaten out of you regularly, being harassed constantly, driven to suicide, etc. And I'm not being dramatic here, as just about any queer can attest. It really does get awful, especially for those who are more "obvious." It was bad enough for me, and I was not flamboyantly fem, just bookish and unathletic. Those who were "obvious" got nonstop abuse, much of it physical.

I strongly suspect that if you were to track down some of those gay folks from your school they would not recall it as being quite so rosy. Everyone I've ever known who came of age pre-Stonewall has some awful stories to tell.

[thom1102]

58. The fact that you don't recall them

is quite telling. The reason you "don't recall" them is not because their lifestyle wasn't an issue, on the contrary it was because their lifestyle was very much at issue. They didn't want to be pegged as different, or were afraid of being labelled as a "fag" or "dyke." Think back to 1960's Kansas, when you were in high school and try to remember how your classmates would have reacted if one of the kids in your high school was openly gay. Think about how intimidating it is to actually come out in an environment where the words "fag," "queer," "sissy," were thrown around so casually and with such hate behind them. Think about how hard it is to feel that you are completely alone, and that you can't even talk to anyone about it for fear of it getting around. Hopefully this provides some perspective.

[SoCalDem]

61. All I was trying to say was that back then where I went to school

sex or sexual orientation was a "non-issue".. It is probably different now, but back then it was pretty much the jocks, the farmers, and the artsies & brains (my groups)..

No one ever got beaten up, as I recall and the cliques kind of stayed to their own.. Times were less confrontational then, so I defer to your circumstances now.. It must be difficult..

In college, I knew and was friends with many openly gay people..men and women, and their high school horror stories were about the same as the rest of us.. the sexual orientation did not seem to make them any different..

just personal experiences here...no statistical data..:)

[DarkPhenyx]

78. SoCalDem...

...you won't win the discussion, or even make your point with them. To them it is plainly simple. GLBT stuents are special and need special treatment. They can't see all the problems this has the potential to cause and will not give an inch.

[Liberal Veteran]

80. I see your point on this DarkPhenyx, but....

you aren't offering a lot of alternative solutions. Your position is as kneejerk (AH! It's segregation! EVIL! OUTCAST! UNCLEAN!) as the opposite side on this.

Things to keep in mind.

1. Any attempt to rectify the situation will be fought by the right wing as "social engineering" and you can be assured there will be a shit storm for even trying enforce diversity training and tolerance in schools. While this may be a long term approach, it is not going to work unless it starts from the ground up. Let's be honest here. Our puritanical and infantile value system in the US cannot handle frank and open discussion about plain old vanilla heterosexuality in the classroom, much less acceptance and respect for people of differing orientations.

2. This is not "enforced" segregation. It is voluntary.

I don't know if there is a good solution here. We may be forced to choose between the lesser of two evils here.

[DarkPhenyx]

82. My response, though it may appear so...

...is hardly kneejerk. It is also not ill informed.

It also isn't completely based upon a "segregation" argument, or at least not in the way most people would use the arguement. As I mentioned ebfore the best solution of all is for gays, and blacks, and pagans, and et. al. to be accepted as "normal" and treated as equals. How in the hell do we expect them to be "equal" if we keep jumping up and screaming that they are special?

The other argument, which seems to ahve bene lost here, is that if we allow a public school for this "special group" then we have to allow it for any special group. If we don't we are hypocritical and we are exactly what the Right wants everyone to believe we are.

This school isn't fix for the problem. At best it's a bandade, adn it could very eaily make things worse.

My solution is simple. Keep them in the school. Provide tehm with the support they need for the issues they are dealing with, just like we should for every other student in the school, and make sure the faculity, the students, and the community at large become better "educated" about the issue. Yes it takes work, yes there are going to be some people who get "hurt" and some will even fall through the cracks and get "lost". IMHO, though, it is far better to fix the problem than to plaster over it and act like we fixed it, or worse, like there isn't a problem at all.

[Liberal Veteran]

84. Of course it's a band-aid.

I don't think anyone suggesting anything of the sort. Sometimes a bandage approach is required.

Affirmative action is also a band-aid. I don't think anyone considers AA to be a perfect solution to racial discrimination in hiring practices or university admissions, but until the illness in our society that causes the problem can be eliminated, there is a great alternative to it.

Our society has not evolved to a point that we can protect some students and educate them at the same time. You scoff at the term "special needs", but that's exactly what it is in a way.

Is it ideal? No it isn't. I admire your idealism on this issue, but my pragmatic side says that it's hopelessly naive to assume that an idealistic approach to this issue would work at this point in our history as a society.

I am okay with this as long as it is a voluntary situation. I think it's necessity arises from some students not being able to handle the consequences that coming out can bring. And once you come out, there is no putting the yolk back into the egg.

[DarkPhenyx]

87. My reply...

Affirmative action is also a band-aid. I don't think anyone considers AA to be a perfect solution to racial discrimination

Apparently some do. Anytime you even consider limiting AA, or even applying it evenly for all cases, you are immediately some sort of mysoginistic racist.

Sometimes you would be right. Band-aids are great and good...if they are used in the right way and at the right time. You don't use a band-iad to treat cancer though. Attempting to do so only makes it that much harder to treat the cancer...if you ever get around to treating it in the first place.

[Liberal Veteran]

92. But we are dealing with kids....not cancer.

We are back to realism vs. idealism. Realistically, this school is reserved for some extreme cases. There is no way that a school that has an enrollment capacity of 100 students can contain the entire gay high school population of NYC. I couldn't begin to tell you what the population is but it's probably in the thousands. This school is specifically catered to those who for whatever reason the education system was unable to protect and educate in the previous school.

Yes there is a cancer in our society where discrimination toward various sexual orientations is concerned, but I don't think the only way to fight this is to let a few (100) students fall by the wayside while we fight this.

[DarkPhenyx]

100. Many of those students are going to fall by the wayside anyway.

Law of averages states that. They are also going to be in an environment that disuades them from learning to deal with those individuals who don't like them, are not like them. They will suffer from a lack of diversity in their experience. Putting them in a seperate school isn't doing them a favor.

How about all those other "special case" students? Don't they rate their own school too? Rememebr, there are a lot of other issues tied up in this. Ones that we, as liberal and fair minded people, really don't want to have to deal with.

This school is a foolish and poorly thought out solution. My opinion. No one has thought out the long term effects yet. Blinded by emotion, or sentiment, we are going to do something that the people making the decision, and agruing this topic, haven't thought about yet.

Say, didn't we get into a war that way?

[thom1102]

110. This is a high school.

These kids have experienced the diversity of 8-9 years of integrated public schools. Additionally, they live in the most diverse city in the world.

If there is a group of student whose safety is in danger because of who they are, then maybe a special high school for them is also appropriate.

Your opinion is noted and respected. Many people in this thread disagree with you. This school has existed as a 20 year two classroom experimental program before the decision to make it into a full fledged high school. I am sure that the city has done a complete study as to how the alumni of this program have fared as compared to their counterparts in regular public schools, before deciding to expand the program.

[DarkPhenyx]

116. Which takes us back to the original argument.

This should not be a public program. Not unless we are willing to allow, and pay for, every other "special needs" school that comes along. That includes people with special needs for relegion, language, color, sex, or any other discriminator you can think of.

[thom1102]

127. And I disagree because

with very few exceptions, students with special needs based on other discriminators rarely face violence based on that discriminator.

[DarkPhenyx]

130. You are joking right?

When was teh last time you were in highschool? I'm 35 years old and I can still remember having to fight nearly daily becasue I was differnt. I was an easy target. When they started to have to jump me in groups of more than three because I could fight 3 or less off, and make it hurt, that they left em alone.

[thom1102]

136. Closer than you...

33. Additionally, I am studying to teach high school, and have worked with GLBT youth organizations. I am truly sorry you got into fights daily, but don't you think, like you pointed out to me, that you may have an emotional closeness to this issue that biases your objectivity?

[DarkPhenyx]

159. I don't have anything emotional tied up in it.

Not anymore. Somewhere along the line I grew up and decided to quit giving people taht kind of power over me. I won.

[thom1102]

168. If that is so,

and I mean no disrespect here, then why have you taken such a strong stance here? You have been arguing this with me since 8am?

[DarkPhenyx]

175. You don't have to have an emotional investment...

...to hold a strong opinion. Sometimes there is just being right. Or at least believing you are. There is the belief that in the long run it isn't going to solve the real problems, it may make them worse, and it is most certainly going to cause others. IMHO it isn't worth it. The costs and risks do not outwiegh the gains.

[mitchtv]

137. you seem to be advocating a kind of high school darwinism

DARKPHENYX. THROW THEM INTO SOME OF THE TOUGHEST SCOOLS IN THE COUNTRY. AND IF THEY DIE , THEY DIE; AM I WRONG HERE?.

[DarkPhenyx]

162. Life is an exercise in Darwinianism.

anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.

it dosen't mean we can't work togehter and get as many through with as few as many scars as possible, but getting them through with no scars at all is not the answer either.

[thom1102]

95. Not special,

different, with different needs. that may need to be addressed differently, in a different setting that is safe.

the best solution of all is for gays, and blacks, and pagans, and et. al. to be accepted as "normal" and treated as equals

Agreed, but they aren't, sad as that may be. In the mean time these kids deserve to have an education in a facility where they feel safe. These are kids that are in danger, and may not have another safe haven. Like I've said numerous times in this thread: THE VAST MAJORITY OF GLBT KIDS WILL STILL BE INTEGRATED.

[DarkPhenyx]

101. Their needs are not different.

Not even one need they have is different from any other student in their school. Not one. All students needs need to be treated differently. That would be becasue they are individuals.

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. Solutions

I have a solution -- vouchers. (Now watch the progressives go run and hide.)

Failing that, same schools for everybody. I don't care what race, nationality or sexual orientation. Make harassment punishments strict and then let the kids learn.

I won't pay tax dollars to fund segregation -- not without a fight.

[DarkPhenyx]

88. I'm also anti-voucher.

But let's not get into that discussion.

[thom1102]

96. Oh my god...

we agree!

[DarkPhenyx]

102. I'm not surprised we agree.

Why are you surprised?

[ronnykmarshall]

83. "They" , "Them", "Special treatment"

Did I log into Fred Phelps' website by mistake?

[DarkPhenyx]

85. Did you have a point to make? n/t

n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

90. It's been made.

[DarkPhenyx]

103. Apparently not.

Why don't you go ahead and say it. Consider that you have no clue who we and they are.

[mitchtv]

134. safe dear, Safe

and that is the primary concern. Segregation, seperatism , bla bla blah ...all extermely secondary. I grew up In NYC If they can't be safe, they can't learn .If anyone wants to go to a gay friendly HS let them. . It really is very tough to be at the bottom of thepecking order for all groups and be humiliated daily. while mainstreaming is ideal, it's never going to be possible in NYCPS.

[Sapphocrat]

229. SoCal...

With all due respect (and you have my undying respect here, you know -- you always have)...

Maybe there was a reason you didn't even know who they were.

[Brian Sweat]

66. Great,

now me and my Trogladerthal friends will know where to find them when we wanna get drunk and beat up on a sissy.






P.S. I have no desire to beat up on homosexual and I don't think they are all sissies. I was just making a point, that this might not be such a great thing.

[thom1102]

67. Point taken, but

They may find that 100 self-assured "sissies" who have learned that they are valued members of society who matter, may not be so easily intimidated by neanderthalic idiots intent on doing them harm. Besides, have you ever seen a lesbian wield a softball bat? In the words of professor X "I pity the person who comes to my school intending harm on my students" or something along those lines.

[DarkPhenyx]

89. Lesbian wield a softball bat?

If that isn't a bigoted sterotype then I don't know what one is.

[thom1102]

122. Guilty, I used a stereotype to

make a joke to try and lighten the mood. But I think we are all taking this a little too far.

[DarkPhenyx]

165. Oh, I'm sure we are taking it way too far.

Almost unavoidable in the thread that get emotionally charged.

[mitchtv]

138. the streets of NYC are safer than the HS's

.

[Christian73]

5. I live in NYC

and the Harvey Milk school has been around for at least 20 years. It's run by the Hetrick Martin Institute and I pass it on my way home from work almost every day.

Perhaps the Board of Education is going to help them expand or something and that's why you heard.

I'll see if I can find anything about it.

Here's a link the the school's website.

http://www.hmi.org/Youth/HarveyMilkSchool/default.aspx

[thom1102]

8. Maybe they are incorporating it into the Public

School system?

[bowens43]

6. I don't get it.

Why is this a good thing? Why is this needed? This sounds like segregation. I don't see how separating these folks (even voluntarily) from the rest of society does them or anyone else any good.

I'll probably get flamed for this but I really don't get it.

[thom1102]

7. please see post 4 for why I think it is a good idea.

.

[bowens43]

17. To me it seems regressive.

During the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's minority students felt very threatened when moving into integrated schools but if they hadn't done it where would be today? I don't see this as a solution to the problem. We should be focusing on ending the discrimination not separating people from the general population.

[thom1102]

23. But for students who have no safe haven from

Violence based on their sexual orientation, this new school would be an alternative to dropping out. If I hadn't had such a strong mother who believed so strongly in education, and ingrained in me the need for a good education, I would have went fleeing out of my high school and never looked back. There are too many GLBT students for whom the choice is facing violence in a school where it is tacitly approved, or dropping out, and getting a substandard education. I think this is a great idea so long as it is voluntary.

[bowens43]

25. Would you be in favor of all white schools

if they were voluntary?

[thom1102]

28. Are you gay?

I only ask to understand where you approach the issue. I feel that until you've walked down that path (where you are terrified to go to school everyday, because you don't know who is going to beat the shit out of you today because they think that you are looking at them the wrong way) It is almost impossible to try and put it into a context for people to understand if they haven't experienced it.

[DarkPhenyx]

30. Jesus christ!

That is the lamest arguemnt. I hate the "you have no idea" commetns when it comes to these issues. All it does is help you justify your desire to conduct your own discrimination under the guise of "defending ourselves".

[thom1102]

38. Listen, you obviously feel strongly about

no special interest public schools, and I disagree. My point was that it is easy to say that you need to be strong and fight the forces of oppression etc when it isn't you they are beating to a pulp everyday. Some people just want to go to school and get an education in a safe environment, and they should be able too. NYC is trying to provide this and I applaude them for it. I think that you have no right to ask people to be stronger than they are. The suicide rate among GLBT teens is 3 times greater than among their straight peers. If these teens had the opportunity to go to a school where they can be among equals, who are not going to persecute them for their sexuality, then they might not have felt the need to take their own life. How many more GLBT teenagers are you willing to let sacrifice themselves to the equity alter?

Those kids that are strong enough to take the high road, will be allowed to, but those that aren't, won't have to. There are only 100 spots in this high school, with seventy more slots to come. There are a lot more than 170 GLBT students in the NYC public school system. This is (agreed probably) going to be for the students who are in trouble, who have no other options left in the public school system. I say it's about time.

[DarkPhenyx]

45. They are already in school...

...among "thier equals". If you don't feel that is right justify why you think they are better or lesser than those other people in public school.

If you feel that "special interest schools" are acceptable, please write to NOW today and tell tehm to leave the Citadel and VMI alone.

[thom1102]

50. So what about Smith?

Is it okay to have a same sex only school if it is only women?

As to them already among "their equals," they are not. They are among people whose sexuality is very different from their own, which is a very distinct difference. They aren't better, nor are they lesser, they are different, and have different needs and require different services. Hopefully you can understand that nuance. NOW certainly does, since it advocates in the medical fields that medicines and treatments be tested for how they affect women's physiology specifically. They understand that women's health needs are different then mens, but not more, nor less.

[DarkPhenyx]

72. Ah, yes.

We think and feel differently so we need special rules and treatment.

You are extremely confused. So what if they are gay. Big deal. Their needs are exactly the same, both physically adn emotionally. This is beasue they are human. Having a different sexual orientation does not change those needs. THey are different, not special. Hell, I'm different. So is the co-worker down the hall. We are all different and special, just like everyone else.

As far as NOW insisting on testing of drug treatments on women that is a completely seperate issue. Being lesbian is not going to make those drugs work any differently than they do on a straight woman.

[thom1102]

139. YES!! you are right

Their needs are exactly the same, both physically adn emotionally. This is beasue they are human

But they are often unable to fulfill those needs because they often lack the necessary support network (whether that fear is rational or not).

I bring up the NOW issue because it shows that people can be different and yet not less nor more.

[TolstoyAndy]

236. Please!! Violence is encouraged

I'm not gay and I am half my life past high school, but there is no doubt that school admins do not give a fuck about the lives of these kids.

Gay teens are dismissed as "freaks" and the hazing they face every day is the reason they are so likely to try suicide.

This is absolutely the fault of society, and therefore we (society) have to try to provide a safe environment for our brothers and sisters (sons/daughters) to learn in.

[General Discontent]

277. I'm not gay

and I don't have to eat a whole egg to know it's rotten.

[noiretextatique]

145. c'mon...de-facto segregation still exists

because segregation exists. many schools are all-whatever, depending on the demographics in the areas. the real problem with "separate, but equal" was the funding was not equal...it's still a problem.

[Christian73]

10. My understanding

is that the school is reserved for those kids who have experienced an excess of violence or harrassment at their regular public schools, so they apply to attend HM instead.

[QC]

15. Read a bit about the harassment that so many gay

kids have to deal with in typical schools--generally with no support from teachers and administrators--and you'll get it.

[bowens43]

22. Then they need to get rid of the teachers and administrators

not the students. What you seem to be saying is that it's better to move the students then to end the harassment and remove those responsible for allowing it to continue.

[QC]

26. Sure, in an ideal world, bigoted teachers/admins would be out the door.

But we don't live on the Big Rock Candy Mountain, at least not yet.

In the imperfect world in which we actually live, homophobia is not only acceptable, it is widely considered a virtue.

That is changing, but what do we do for the students who--right now--are getting the shit beaten out of them on a regular basis, being harassed, etc? They are quite literally being driven to suicide, in many cases. (Let's not forget that GLBT teenagers are three times more likely to attempt suicide than straight ones.)

Do we tell those kids that they need to just suck it up and take one for the team, that they just have to suffer so that someday we can all love one another?

I share your belief in integration--I am no queer separatist and have little patience with gay ghetto queens--but there are lots of kids hurting, and they need help now, not decades from now.

[QC]

11. A private school for GLBT kids opened in Dallas six years ago.

http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/States/Texas/school5.html

Definitely progress to have a public school like this.

[nostamj]

12. article

July 28, 2003 -- EXCLUSIVE
The city is opening a full-fledged high school for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students - the first of its kind in the nation, The Post has learned.

Operating for two decades as a small alternative program with just two classrooms, the new Harvey Milk HS officially opens as a stand-alone public school with 100 students in September.

The school, located at 2 Astor Place, is undergoing a $3.2 million in city-funded renovations approved by the old Board of Education in June of last year. It will eventually take in 170 students by September 2004, more than tripling last year's enrollment.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/1711.htm

[thom1102]

16. Thanks

.

[DarkPhenyx]

18. No! Nononononono!

This is very bad. Definately not good. Not 911 or Iraq bad, but definately not good.

[noiretextatique]

146. i think the students at the school

would disagree with you. i bet they think is it definitely good.

[DarkPhenyx]

176. And they would be wrong. n/t

[noiretextatique]

183. your self-righteous, is surpassed only by

disregard for these kids. congratulations...you are more right, and they are wrong.

[DarkPhenyx]

185. *bright and cheery* Thank you!

[thom1102]

19. DU acting up again.

.

[Stephanie]

63. Thanks nostamj, now it makes sense

The current school is right around the corner from me - I didn't realize it was so small.

[QC]

52. What many gay school kids deal with

The lonely gay graduate
Our diarist has reached the end of his high school days and attends graduation on his own—the only student among more than 400 to take the school bus home after the ceremony, because his parents stayed home. Oh, and they want him out of the house.

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/894/894_highschooldiary.asp

[Liberal Veteran]

55. In a perfect world, I would despise this idea....

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world yet. Currently gays and lesbians are one of the last groups that it's "okay" to harrass and attack.

Teachers and administrators cannot protect some of these kids from day in day out harrassment, which can be the equivalent of mental, if not physical torture.

I am not opposed to this idea as long as it's voluntary and gives these kids a safe haven to get an education in a society that treats them like second class citizens.

[robbedvoter]

60. I hope this works, but Bloomerg's school reform stinks to high heavens!

He is disolving highly successful alternative schools to bring them down to "uniform curriculum" (i.e - learn for tests BS). Just because some people get what they wanted, please stop peddling the Bloomberg is good" BS on me!

[thom1102]

64. Not a Bloomberg fan...

Just looking for a silver lining. Actually, it turns out that this was implemented under a plan instituted by the school board pre reform.

[dsc]

65. It is sad that this is needed

but it is needed. I remember junior high so well. Nearly daily I got some terrible thing done to me since I was assumed (rightly) to be gay. I was terrified to tell anyone either at school or at home for fear that if I was known to be gay no one would love me. It ranged from beatings to swirlies to being canned to whatever they felt like next. Being small, bookish, and unathletic in an athlete worshipping enviroment was not fun. By high school it settled down a little but I still took a fair amount of crap. It wasn't until college that I actually felt a little safe to be me. That said, I do understand the fear of other schools this engenders. But one huge difference is that gays often feel the can't or actually can't rely on their parents to support them. If a black kid gets beat on for being black then his parents will stand up for him. That isn't always the case for gays.

Sometimes there is no good solution. This is one of those times.

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. State-funded segregation

Was wrong before. It still is, whether by race or sexual orientation.

[Liberal Veteran]

70. It's not a perfect solution....

Unfortunately, I can't think of a good one. Diversity education might go a long way to cleaning up some of the problems that GLBT youth experience in high school, but whenever that is tried the fucking holy rollers come out en masse and acuse the schools of "indoctrinating" or "recruiting".

I just don't see any good solutions to this problem. As near as I am able to determine, this appears to be a case of having to choose between the lesser of two evils.

[mitchtv]

141. stae funded harrasment and torture is wrong too

and that has persisted for many many years as long as it is gay friendly and of course voluntary either accept if or find a way to protect each and every student who is harrassed constantly , or face lawsuits for failing to protect. I think this scool is a way to shield NY from this type of suit.

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. Every minority

Has been harassed at times. The way to stop that is education and discipline, not returning to the horrors of the past.

[MaryBear]

69. This is ghetto-izing for these kids.

[MaryBear]

71. IMHO this money would be better spent

educating staff and students about tolerance, and enforcing rules. I understand about the harrassment. I have a child who was harrassed because she cut her hair short before starataing junior high because she liked the look, and others labeled her gay though she is straight. I do also understand that many teen suicides are related to sexuality. These kids do need safe space but I seriously question ghetto-izing for any reaaon: culture, religion, race. A primary function of public school needs to be getting along with each other.

[Liberal Veteran]

75. While I agree wholeheartedly.....

You and I both know that the moment homosexuality and tolerance for diversity is brought to the table, the religious community will be all over the issue and the final result will end up being so watered down as to be worthless when they are done.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

111. Um....what?

I read that 18 times and it still makes no sense.

Want to try to rephrase that coherently?

[DarkPhenyx]

121. Wouldn't even worry about it.

From the little bit I could translate the post wasn't germain to this thread anyway. Looked to be an anti-gay lifestyle issue. Heavy on teh "brainwashing poor children" end of the argument.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[soleft]

113. homosexualidad

Is that next to Trinidad?

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jagguy]

104. it'll be interesting to see

how this plays out when applying to college.

Segregation is not the answer to kids giving other kids grief.

Of course if it turns out to be a better school, you might have kids signing up to get out of their lousy school and being less than truthful about that GLBT thing.

All in all sounds like they are trying to avoid the real issue and cheat the kids in the process. As usual.

[Liberal Veteran]

109. Well, until our society truly wants to address the issue....

Such band-aid solutions are necessary.

Unfortunately you still have significant portion of the population who respond the notion of addressing the needs of GLBT teens with the stock answer of "stay the fuck in the closet and you won't have to worry about it".

What's amazing to me is that the same arguments being made against this kind of thing are exactly the same kind of arguments made against Affirmative Action.

Generally speaking, we apply some band-aids to problems in our society while trying to correct the root source of the problem.

For example, we would all like to live the infamous "color blind" society, but until we get their, programs like Affirmative Action are necessary to deal with what we face today while trying to get to get to the utopian ideal.

[soleft]

115. Our we segregating ourselves here at DU by having a community of just Dems

[Liberal Veteran]

120. An excellent question.....

[Heddi]

129. well for one thing

DU isn't public in the same way this school is public.

by being a public school, it is funded by state and local taxes paid for by the citizens of that state, city, whatever.

DU is a privately run board, and the administrators can have whatever content they want within this board. They can include or exclude anyone and everyone they want to.

A public school cannot do that--or at least should NOT be able to do that.

[noiretextatique]

142. i'm not sure you are right about the funding

i don't think school is completely funded by public monies, at least not via tax dollars, but i am not sure. i do know that a non-profit institute is at least managing some of the funding, and apparently, managing the school. the hetrick-martin institute. per their website, the harvey milk high school is a collaborative effort of the institute and the New York City Department of Education’s Career Education Center Alternative High School Program.

the school board did approve 3.2 million to renovate the building in which the school will be housed.

here's a link to the institute's website. i've emailed them about the specifics of the funding.

http://www.hmi.org/Youth/HarveyMilkSchool/default.aspx

[thom1102]

143. But should public education systems

be flexible enough to respond to the needs of their students? What about the School for the Performing Arts? NYC residents, isn't there a high school for exceptionally performing students? Isn't that a form of exclusion/inclusion in a publically funded school system?

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. Arts

The School for the Performing Arts is designed to TEACH based on an area of special interest. It's like having a technical school for the artistic.

It is not a segregation-based academy funded by public money like this is. How does this differ from spending DIRECT state money to fund religious schools?

Either all children are treated the same or we allow EVERYONE to opt out with the same advantages -- like vouchers.

[thom1102]

151. Want to talk vouchers?

I suggest starting another thread. Vouchers are sufficiently off topic from this one.

[Muddleoftheroad]

158. Not off topic

Using public funds, you have two choices. Either you treat ALL kids equally or you let ALL kids have the same chance to opt out of the system. The School for the Performing Arts is an example. It lets kids opt into a special school based on talent, not sexual orientation. Vouchers are another way to opt out.

This solution is blatant bigotry, the kind my avatar fought. It is wrong -- legally and morally.

[noiretextatique]

180. it is a response to existing bigotry

like the kind that killed matthew shepard and others. homo-hatred is pervasive, and acceptable, and accepted. people even preach it from the pulpits in many chruches across america.

there is nothing illegal or immoral about this school. it is a collaborative effort of the NYC alternative school program and the non-profit hetrick-martin institute.

i am sure of the specifics of the school's funding, but i do know the institute does provide some funding.

the school came into being, as i understand it, in response to kids being beaten and harrassed for being gay...as i said, a response to existing bigotry.

a friend and i are both changing careers to teach in the fall. her biggest concern is that she can't "pass" as straight, as i can, if i choose, and because of her appearance, people will know she is gay.
she fears what will happen to her because of that assumption...in the classroom, and with parents because of the way she looks. my friend is a gifted poet and scholar, and a wonderful teacher. she is also a kind, gentle and generous human being who wants to teach children.

yet...her biggest fear is that being gay and looking gay will interfere not only with her ability to teach, but also her ability to feel safe while doing so. tell me, again...about bigotry.

[Muddleoftheroad]

182. And this is different

From problems other minorities have faced how?

[noiretextatique]

188. because THIS bigotry is STILL acceptable

that's how it's different...and that's how it is the same. my friend is not worried about being accepted as a black woman...she worried about being accepted as a black gay woman. she'll likely be working with black children.
and though religion has been used to justify racial hatred, surely i won't hear that coming from a black minister, for example. but, i wouldn't be surprised to hear this same minister say gays are condemned to hell, and how homosexuality is an abomination...i have heard it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

210. This is EXACTLY

What my (and if I recall correctly YOUR) ancestors dealt with when segregation was eliminated. There is no need to bring back that demon.

[noiretextatique]

212. yes...but segregation has NOT been eliminated, has it?

familiar with white flight? i am...it's form of segregation, isn't it? as i told me friend, i am looking forward to working in the oakland schools (in a school that is predominantly black)...it will be a change from working in downtown sf for ten years (in predominantly white companies).

it's my way of honoring our ancestors, and hopefully, making a difference in kids lives. as the teachers who taught me made a difference in my life...all black women, for the first six years of my life in a segregated school...de facto, of course.

what i hope to do at some point in my new career, is to partner with local organizations to invest in the lives of the children who are still suffering from the realities of de-facto segregation, e.g., lower revenues from property taxes. i applaud this effort, for that reason...it's addressing a reality in lives of lgbt youth.

i certainly appreciate the efforts of the people who were on the front lines of the battle to integrate schools, but i really don't know if i would have had the courage to endure what they did. i think this is a positive move forward in that at least some of these kids will no longer have to experience harassment and beatings before the culture changes. and i think that is worth a lot more than fears about segregation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

234. Segregation

Segregation by circumstance is one thing. Conscious attempts at segregation are another. There is no way the state should be involved in segregation.

[noiretextatique]

238. conscious attempts at segregation

vs. circumstantial segregation? hmmm...i don't think there is as clear distinction between the two as you do. perhaps it's because i'm not opposed to segregation...i just see it as a fact of life in these united states. as to why that is the case...well, that's another story entirely. but i don't think much of it is circumstantial.

[Muddleoftheroad]

248. Circumstantial

If people CHOOSE to LIVE apart, that is their choice. But the government can't fund or sponsor segregation in a public activity like education. We fought long and hard to stop that.

This is just a classic double standard.

[Liberal Veteran]

250. And they aren't doing that in this case either....

As I have said (probably ad nauseum at this point) this public/private program has been in existance last resort safety net to student who would likely fall through the cracks of the mainstream system and is not designed for ALL or even MOST students facing issues in the schools due to their sexual orientation.

I'll be the first to agree that I wish such a thing didn't need to exist, but you are dealing with a peculiar minority here. This is a minority that generally has little to no support from any direction. Nearly every other minority has at least the family or support from their religion to fall back on. A lot of gay kids get it from all sides: Schools, police, former friends, family, church.

It's a tough situation that these kids shouldn't have to face. All this is doing is taking a few at-risk students and offering them a option to better themselves when their backs are against the wall.

As I have said before, I see this as no different than any other school that caters to the needs of a particular group....troubled teens, teen parents, etc......

[Muddleoftheroad]

254. Not any other school

All of the other programs MAINSTREAM students as much as possilbe. This segregates them and is expediency at the cost of legality and morality.

[Liberal Veteran]

256. And your are deliberately ignoring the fact...

That this school exists for those students for whom "mainstreaming" has failed or is failing.

Deliberately viewing this as a ghetto school for those students who dare to break some kind of public school version of "don't ask, don't tell" is missing the point of what the school is there for.

If this actually were an enforced segregation of gay students from the general student body, I would be completely against this, but it isn't. It's is merely an alternative program for a very small number of GLBT students.

[noiretextatique]

257. not deliberately ignoring

like most people opining in this thread, few have bothered to read the article posted about the school, or to find out about the work of the institute that runs it.
segregation is bad, seems to be the mantra. and that may be the case, but as i've mentioned several times, there are plenty of racially segregated schools. as i mentioned to one poster, his argument about what these kids will do after high school (how will they learn to fit in at college and in society) could be easily applied to black kids at an all-black high school NOW. perhaps that's why this society has chosen to use education as a political football vs. investing in all is children.
segregation is really, really, really bad though...wonder why so much of it still exists...if it so bad?

[Muddleoftheroad]

261. Segregation

We can't bus people halfway around the U.S. to end segregation. That's why it exists.

People still live in neighborhoods, communities, towns and counties near others of similar race, ethnic, religious or financial situations. It is difficult for any court to sort all of that out. Would you have a court bus poor black kids from inner city D.C. to Northern Virginia every day just to end segregation? Of course not.

But there is a difference between accepting the reality of the situation and making it worse. This school makes it worse. It says that these children CAN'T be mainstreamed and must be locked away in a special school. Well, the real world isn't like that and the state should not be involved in funding such an atrocious act of discrimination.

[noiretextatique]

262. i'm not the one arguing against segregation

as i have told you several times...it is a fact of life. i never supported busing, btw...i support equitable funding. i think the entire idea of busing was misguided, and based on some naive misconceptions. the problem then, as now, is equitable funding. you may think exisiting segregation is conincidental if you choose.
i don't for one minute believe it is all simply circumstantial. and even if it is...it doesn't matter when certain kids are falling through the cracks in alarming and disproportionte numbers. poor and 'minority' children, to be precise.

THIS IS THE REAL WORLD...and this is a real world solution to a real world problem. who, exactly, is this school 'discriminating' against, since it's open to anyone?
do you know that public/private partnerships such as this one are quite common? i worked for an organization that contracted with the city of san francisco to run programs, all related to criminal justice. one of those programs in a halfway house for black men...it's run by muslims.
there are other programs for at-risk youth, many of them dealing with SPECIFIC populations...this one is no different.

i applaud real solutions to real world problems, even if they offend some people's idyllic views of the what the REAL world is really like.

[EAMcClure]

119. I don't see anything wrong

There's nothing wrong with a voluntary pro-GLBT school and program.

My first thought was "Hogwart's for Homosexuals."

Yes, there is a bit of cast down your bucket, but this isn't race, it's sexuality. There is still a pervasive mystification of human sexuality which seeks to make sexual expression wrong, immoral, dangerous, and animal. There is still a pervasive social doctrine of punishment for those who dare think that sexuality is natural and should be understood, disucssed, and nurtured.

Schools which cater a GLBT slant are nothing but positive, as long as they are voluntary. The curriculum and ethos of such institutions will help counter-balance the hate-filled narrow-minded authoritarian education most children suffer through.

Eric

[tuck]

126. wow. what a discussion.

break it down, folks. when it comes to kids safety, who the hell cares if it's a band-aid? personally, i'd have given anything not to be harrassed at school. why do gay kids drop out? cuz they're called "fag" all day.

one might say that they will have to deal with this their whole life, so they should start learning young

bull shit

even through high school, no one deserves this. they'll start learning tough lessons eventually. leave it until they're not hormone ridden adolescents.

on the point that it doesn't matter if yer gay, your opinion is stilll valid:

it absolutely does. if yer straight, you can theorize about it all you want, but you will never have any idea what it is like to be a queer youth in a hostile environment. so iwill thank all y'all straight people out there to keep yer theory and pontifications to yerselves.

they're kids, for god's sake. let them have a place to learn.

[Liberal Veteran]

131. Wow. Nicely summed up.

And welcome to DU!

[thom1102]

144. here here!

Nicely said!
and welcome!

:toast:

[TheBigGuy]

164. Bravo! Excellent!

Too many folks are speaking "ex cathedra" here on whats best for gay folks.

[DarkPhenyx]

177. *yawn*

[Duncan Grant]

187. That wasn't necessary, was it?

This is a forum of friends and allies, is it not? Ease up.

[DarkPhenyx]

195. You are right, it probably wasn't necessary.

Probably.

[Duncan Grant]

186. Thanks Tuck!

And welcome to DU! You've captured my sentiments exactly.

Hope you will be jumping in regularly on threads like this one!

:hi:

[mitchtv]

217. thank you, tuck, luv your style

I was"lucky" I went to NYC catholic schools for 11 1/2 yrs and went to a "good" public HS= Newtown after I was expelled.

[jiacinto]

150. I really don't like this

This reminds me of "separate but equal" Just substitute black for gay and you get something very offensive and disgusting.

This is wrong.

[TheBigGuy]

154. Its wrong if its involuntary.

then the seperate but equal analogy would apply.

I see this more as those "specialty" high schools that have been cropping up, like those performing arts high schools, or traditional schools, or science schools, or Ballet Tech (for kids that want to be dancers, also in NYC).

There might also be a safety & pedagogic factor involved too, where kids don't have to be harassed and beat up all the time in school if they are gay or lesbian...it could be less stressfull and help their academic performance if they arent always worried about when they are going to be hassled or hit next.

[jiacinto]

156. I don't like the idea I really don't

I don't think we should be segregating gay people from the general population.

[TheBigGuy]

161. yes, but who is doing the segregating.

...in this case its self-segregation for survival. That was the purpose of the gay ghettos, and the older immigrant ghettos, too.

[jiacinto]

172. For Survival?

I disagree strongly. Maybe the kids won't be harassed there, but they will be basically setting a bad precedent. Which will be:

Gay studnets should go to the Gay High School

Which, in turn, will lead to forced segregation in due time.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

152. Might as well put a bulls-eye on their back.

They will be ridiculed mercilessly for going to the "gay" school. Can you imagine when their sports teams travel to other schools? They need to stay "mainstreamed" and learn how to deal with it.

[thom1102]

160. The Kids who are going to this school

will most likely be the kids who were driven out of the other schools in the district, so will probably not have that much interaction with the other schools. With only 170 students, the school will probably not have a sports program.

[mitchtv]

218. after all ,straight kids need some one to pick on

(unspoken) learn to live with it, INDEED. Spend the money to hire lawyers to sue the shit out of the Board of education any time someone is attacked within 10 blocks of these hell holes(for gay kids)

[davidinalameda]

153. why this is needed

You have kids who are physically, mentally and emotionally abused by their classmates, teachers and assorted school administrators for being gay or perceived to be gay.

Gay and lesbian teens have one of the highest suicide rates among the age group. They also have one of the highest drop-out rates.

When you have school administrators like you do in Kentucky, Louisiana, Wisconsin, California and probably the other 46 states as well who turn a blind eye to the abuse and in some cases, add to the abuse these kids face, what is wrong with a high school where these kids can feel safe and learn?

Until our society values everyone for whom they are, this crap is going to happen.

I CANNOT believe some of the comments on here against this school. It is not segregation in any sense of the word. These kids are probably at risk and need this kind of enviroment.

[ronnykmarshall]

184. I pretty suprised too

Some of the remarks in here are unbelievable.

I wish I could have had a school like this. Even though when I was in High School it wasn't that bad. But I swear when I was in the 6th grade and Jr High if I could have taken a gun and blown my head off, I would have.

We moved right before I started the 6th grade and I've experienced that kind of harrassment. The school and my teacher didn't give a flying fuck. I couldn't go to my parents. I was a bundle of nerves everyday at school, lost weight and my grades dropped. When I read remarks like "they just need to deal with it", it frosts my ass.

Kids don't deserve to be treated like this. If there is an option like this school, I'm all for it.

[jiacinto]

191. well

Okay, so we send all gay people to the "gay school". Over time it becomes a societal norm that "gay children" go to the "gay school".

So then, at what point, do we get society to treat gay people equally? At what point do we get public schools to treat gay children with fairly within the same school as their heterosexual counterparts? And what recourse will gay children have when bullies harass them? Be told that they should go to the "gay school"?

This will inevietably lead to "separate but equal". Substite the word "black" for "gay" and you get something very insidious.

[ronnykmarshall]

196. Where was that said?

No one said "send all the gay people to the gay school".

But if a kid is getting the shit beat out of him or her everyday for being gay, this is one hell of a good option.

Or should they just drop out of school? Kill themselves? Schools like this save kids lives and give them some fucking hope.

[Liberal Veteran]

199. It was explicitly not said...

Anyone who thinks that the entire gay high school population of New York City is under 200 people must have flunked out of school themselves.

This school is designed specifically for difficult cases where no matter how hard the faculty and student tried, the student could not be protected from abuse.

This is no different that schools for pregnant teens, alternative schools for those who have been in the judicial system, and troubled teens.

[jiacinto]

203. But I have a problem with a school for "pregnant teens"

It secludes them off and I have a significant problem with that, especially when it is the women who have to go there.

[Liberal Veteran]

209. And most are not required to do that....but....

Given the physical challenges of pregnancy and the stigma attached to teens who are pregnant, there are some young women who feel more comfortable in an alternative enviroment. Many young women who do not have that alternative just choose to drop out of school altogether and that isn't a ideal situation.

[DarkPhenyx]

197. Thank you.

Nicely sumerized.

[noiretextatique]

215. you live in DC, are all the schools integrated there?

now tell me all about the insidiousness of segregation...please.

[jiacinto]

225. Segreation is bad

And I think having a "gay only school" is bad too.

[noiretextatique]

230. these banal pronouncements of yours

are a great way to avoid complex issues. "segregation is bad" doesn't address the issue of de-facto segregation, which is still a "bad" reality in places like the city where you live. like many "bad" things in this world, simple answers, like "good" and "bad" do nothing to address or change reality.

[mitchtv]

221. except you will get

seperate but better
.Sorry couldn't help it.
But surely freed from the bonds of the current HS society many of these kids will blossom , where once they were failing. I keep remembering Ranco Santa Fe down near SDiego, Ca a couple of years ago. Gay kids usually suicicde, but one day this option will be taken. If this type of school cannot be subsidise a group of lawyers to sue the principals, teachers, and school system for failing to protect, relentlessly till the ofeenders are imprisoned and enablers unemployed. And you know that will never happen, hence the school

[jiacinto]

226. Separate but better?

I have to strongly disagree here. Shielding children from the blunt realities of society is not in their best interest. And by cutting them off from the general population you start the trend toward "separate but equal".

[QC]

202. Not surprising or unbelievable, unfortunately.

There's a certain subset of straight liberals who feel perfectly comfortable lecturing gay people on what being gay is all about and how to be good little homos.

I've encountered quite a few of them over the years and learned not to take them too seriously.

[DarkPhenyx]

206. Not even worth replying to.

Waaaaay too "oh my poor gay stars".

[QC]

207. And yet you still felt compelled to reply.

[DarkPhenyx]

211. Yeah...

...but only because I like to listen to myself talk. I sound so intelligent and wise. thank you for giving me yet another oppertunity.

[Liberal Veteran]

171. I think a lot of people miss the point....

Yes, this school primarily caters to gay students, but obviously with a student body of less than 200, it is not designed for as a ghetto school for every gay student. With over 1 million children enrolled in the NYC school system, and a fairly conservative estimatate of around 6000 of those kids being gay (assuming 2 percent which assumes many stay closeted during their school years and counting only high school students 9-12 grades), this school is obviously designed to be a special needs school for kids that are at risk.

This is not a new idea. There are many alternative education facilities that are publically funded for a variety of reasons and most of those reasons are to give the kids a chance they could not get in the general public school environment.

Does the existance of this school require us to ignore the situation in the regular schools and give us a free ride to avoid addressing the very real issue of vicious discrimination against GLBT youth? Of course not.

What it does allow us to do is minimize the damage to a few kids for a few short years until our society gets it's head out of it's collective ass and stops teaching kids and future teachers and faculty that it's okay to turn a blind eye to bigotry and that it's okay to hate and bash GLBT kids.

I don't like the fact that such a thing is needed, but I understand that until our society changes, such a thing will be needed.

[DarkPhenyx]

179. Wow! Deleted posts.

makes me wonder what was said. hate when that hapens.

[kenfolks]

200. My two cents

Yay, first post!

Although I can respect the idea of a gay only school as a safe haven for those that feel oppressed, the fact remains that little if any progress gets made unless the issue is in the face of those that must change. My father grew up in the South during desegregation. He tells me stories about daily fights and jeering. He had a horrible time of it, but the fact remains that he and his generation made it possible for me to go to a mostly white school and receive the same education and experience the other kids received.

[DarkPhenyx]

205. Good first post.

Welcome aboard. I say good first post not just becasue it kinda dovetails with my very opinionated ranting either.

[kenfolks]

208. Thanks!

I honestly don't see how a gay high school can help in the long run. I am not a homosexual, and this might destroy any legitimacy I might otherwise have had, but once you're through with 4 years of gay high school, where do you go? To your all gay city in your all gay country? Integration and better education and information are what is needed, not segregation.

[thom1102]

214. One of the purposes of this school

is to help the students deal with the issues that made regular high school not an option. It provides them with the tools to deal with the bigotry that they will encounter in the real world. This is a crisis school. When students graduate the school, they will be better able to integrate into society.

I think that with a positive high school experience, most of these students will be able reintegrate once the crises passes.

I have spent the better part of the day arguing this case, and I no longer feel that this discussion is beneficial, so this will be my last post in this thread nor will I participate in Bearfart's ridiculous attempt to drag this argument even further down in a seperate thread concerning gay teachers in a gay school.

As I told Dark Phenyx earlier, I respect your opinion, and consider it a valid, conflicting opinion, and I respectfully disagree. For the last 34 years, since the gay rights movement started in this country, there has been a definite improvement in the plight of the GLBT youth. Unfortunately, there are still far too many people in this country who see GLBT people as unworthy of basic human rights and protections. These people, especially when given the responsibility of guiding and teaching our youth, or are given a position of authority over these youth, can do irreperable harm to a young persons psyche during a crucial period of their development.

I see this school as an opportunity to take youth in crisis and put them on the path towards leading a positive life. And it saddens me that there are intelligent progressives here who don't see the benefit of this school. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[noiretextatique]

219. look on the bright side

regardless of who disagrees, the school will be open to serve the needs of lbgt kids who go there...and that's something to celebrate. peace...and i thank you for posting this thread.

[beadem]

275. Agreed: It will help INTEGRATE them into a supportive place

I have to agree with thom1102 that such a school will provide tools for survival. thom1102 said:
"It provides them with the tools to deal with the bigotry that they will encounter in the real world. This is a crisis school. When students graduate the school, they will be better able to integrate into society."

Maybe rather than "segregating" these students from the "real world" the school will help to integrate them into a supportive gay community that they most likely don'e have, i.e. learn about how the law affects gays, gay popular culture, knowledge about companies/workplaces that at are gay-friendly, PFLAG, gay history and literature, etc. Not to mention the possibility of a more comfortable dating life.
All such support measures will help them out later in life.

[mitchtv]

222. after for years of Gay HS where do you go??

NYU,CCNY,HUNTER FORDHAm Columbia shure beats washing dishes at max's kansas city cause you dropped out.And Kenfolk it wasn't necessary to tell us that you were not gay. The post said it for you(with all due respect) Welcome abord

[kenfolks]

224. Now, wait

Mitch, if NYU, CCNY, Hunter, Fordham and Columbia (New York schools) will be tolerant of homosexuals, why won't high schools in New York be the same? Why must a gay high school exist and not a gay college? Society awaits homosexuals, regardless of how long they might choose to isolate themselves. You wanna change minds, you have to do it from the inside. It really seems like overkill to me to create a gay high school in one of the most liberal places in the country, or in any place, for that matter. The gay school is counter-productive. What a perversion of liberal views. How can anyone propose the segregation of a beleaguered minority because that minority has it hard? What a shame. Hell, I am a black man in the south. Perhaps they should create a well funded black school for me.

[noiretextatique]

231. funding black schools well is the solution

to an entrenched problem...as is funding all schools properly. i find it interesting that some people are so against this school because, as one profound poster put it, "segregation is bad." well...de facto segregation is a fact of life. as to whether attending a segregated high school hinders one's ability to function in more integrated college environments, that argument can be easily used against MANY high school students, right? yeah integration is great...but let's not pretend that all schools are integrated, because we both know that is not the case.

[BurtWorm]

232. Reforming public education requires experimentation

Some of the people taking the hard line against "segregating" GLBT students seem to think that schools have the socializing component down just right. Well, they clearly don't. In fact the kind of socialization in most "desegregated" high schools, from what gay and lesbian DUers are saying here, impinges on the educational component of GLBT kids. Until most schools are safe for this vulnerable population of students, I don't see why the public shouldn't support a safe school where these students can learn without fear of physical or emotional violence. And people should realize that there are undoubtedly a lot more GLBT kids in NYC schools than the 100 who will be attending Harvey Milk in the fall. At least some of those not attending HMHS will have chosen not to. The more choice in public education, the better and stronger it becomes all around.

[mitchtv]

252. Congratulations

your argument is being put foward bi THE FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL. Now I am sure that I am right, cause they are the most homophobic group in the nation If you don't include Fred Phelps' gang. Yes my son NYC high shools that people are required to attend by law are different from the colleges and universities for many resaons. Mostly related to class. They are not safe for gays and the board of education is in serious legaljeopardy if they cannot protect children. Which they cannot do for a variety of reason.

[elcondor]

233. I'm going to wade into this to say

that I am fresh from high school, and nearly everyday I personally witnessed an act of some sort of abuse towards minorities (emotional, phyisical, or otherwise). Wiccan and other "Pagan" students (including Buddhists and Hindu (the people in my school weren't too bright)) were dragged into the bathrooms and had cigarettes burned into their skin. Jewish kids (myself included--I chose at the end of my junior year to begin studying to eventually convert) were thrown against walls and verbally harassed. But no one, NO ONE, had it worse than the GLBT students. (I frankly get a little upset talking about what was done to them, so I'll just leave it to your own imagination.)

But then an organization called the "Diversity Awareness" was formed and began to educate my classmates about the uniquenesses of my fellow sufferers. The abuse far from stopped, but did begin to filter off by the time I graduated this past spring. Which is why I think informing people about GLBT teens is a far better idea than separating them from their peers. GLBT teens will eventually have to enter into an adult society, and they will end up having a horrible adult life if they go out into a world of ignorant people. Now I know that in extreme cases, a GLBT person cannot stay in a "regular school" because his or her life is in danger. I don't think for a second someone should stay if that is the case.

A final point, I think this school is a good idea for those aforementioned who are in grave danger. But it should be a private school. By using the fact that GLBT people must be protected, the government should then, logically, start schools for other afflicted minority groups so they can feel "safe".

[Fescue4u]

235. There are also people who would prefer a white only school

That only white kids could go to and not be harrassed by those "black people"....


Fortunately, we learned long ago that just because people wanted to be seperated off, it wasnt really a good idea.

This idea is just as bad.

Then to top it off, its a PUBLIC school!!!!!!

When many folks are fighting vouchers, this crap comes out left field (no pun intented)

[noiretextatique]

242. duh...there are actually all-white schools

and people who prefer them. some of you folks don't seem to know that some schools are still segregated.

[Fescue4u]

258. duh...not by design though

But by natural population patterns.

This reminds me of my H.S.

My H.S was about 50% black and 50% white (or close to it). We had one Cafeteria. For whatever reason, all the black kids ate on one side of the cafeteria, and the white kids on the other side.

There wasnt any problem if a white kid went to the "black side", or a black kid went to the "white side", but in general, groups stayed to one side or the other.

Community/housing populations are the same, a black kid can certainly go to a white school, but most choose not to (and vice versa)

The school had very few, if any racial problems/conflicts, but every day the kids self segregated themselves at lunch, and still do from what I understand (15 years since I went there)

[Fescue4u]

259. SO Segretion is PC now?

I bet the KKK, nation of Islam, aryan nation and other racist groups are happy to hear about this development.

[noiretextatique]

266. newsflash: this is NOT a new development

how can it be that some of you don't seem to grasp that? whether it's "good" "bad" "pc" "circumstantial" or "by design"...segregation is a fact of life in the public school system, just as in this society. even the KKK understands that much.

as to how to address that reality...i don't pretend to have the all the answers to such an entreched and complex problem. however, i do know that pretending what IS isn't is a part of the problem.

[noiretextatique]

264. design or natural pattern

that's a matter of opinion.

[Dont B bush N Me]

239. If its ok to have a publicly funded gay school

Why not publicly funded Christian schools? 3.2 million is a small price to pay for the Republicans to get their way eh?

[foo_bar]

241. think of it as a large homeroom

Some so-called public schools in NYC have entrance exams. In this case there's 100 slots and no clear admission standard, so expect the freshman class to have names like Hormel and Cheney.

[noiretextatique]

243. such paranoia...

a bunch of rich gay kids sucking off the public teat? there is a graduate of HMS who posted her story in this thread. i don't believe she's a hormel or a cheney. what would you suggest as an entrance exam? how about: how many times did you get beaten to a pulp at school in the past year? or...are you homeless because your parent kicked you out? :shrug: maybe a hormel or a cheney would qualify.

[Dont B bush N Me]

244. Just further evidence of the tribalization (a new word!!)

of America. The ruination has begun. Republicans want evidence that public funded Christian schools are needed because the children are being assulted by non Christian doctrine. Same argument gays give for the need for gay only schools: the need for a pure enviornment so they can feel safe. The men are disappearing and we are fast becoming a nation led by children.

[noiretextatique]

245. men? whatever...

i seriously doubt one school for 100 NY gay kids in a country of 250 million+ people is the end of civilization...as you know it. actually, it could be argued that christian doctrine contributed to the need for this school, since many sects are viciously anti-gay.

[Dont B bush N Me]

246. And the opposite is also true

Thus the need for publicly funded all Christian schools. eh?

[noiretextatique]

247. can you demonstrate a need?

have you heard of the doctrine of separation of church and state, perhaps? bush, inc didn't need this excuse to push it's faith-based initiatives.

are you aware that the institute that runs this school has been doing so, without public funds, for some time? i am not sure, but i think the institute will continue to provide some or all of the funding. from what i have read, the school board providing funding for renovating the school, and will partner with this organization to run the school. apparently, the NYC school district thought they were doing a good job.

there are several programs, using public funds, operating thru non-profit organizations. i know of an organization that provides services for the sheriff and probation departments here in sf.

where is the outcry over these programs? this school is not much different than those progams.

[Dont B bush N Me]

260. My point was not to advocate any program escpecially one

advocated by the pathetic Bush admin. I am voraciously agaisnt all public funding for private education institutions. I am for public schools period. They have served us in the past and with proper funding will serve us in the present and future. My point to you simply was, "Whats good for the goose is good for the gander." You can't have it both ways and have ANY credibility.

[noiretextatique]

265. is homosexuality a religion?

:shrug: news to me

[noiretextatique]

240. this is a public/private venture...i think

the school itself is, and has been, run by the non-profit hetrick-martin institute. the 3.2 million from the school board was for renovation of a building to house the school. can anyone speak with intelligence, and knowledge on the funding of this school? it seems to be a big issue with some here. thanks in advance.

[kenfolks]

249. ...

Funding doesn't have to be a main component of the issue. Many have brought up the proposition that segregation is alive and well in public schools today, and these people are certainly right. Here in Richmond there are definitely white public schools and black public schools. However, I don't recall any of this being considered right, or even desirable. I mean, this is why we have affirmative action in this country, to ensure diversity. You cannot preach the need to educate and at the same time preach safe havens for beleagured minority. Yes, I understand the pluses of it. I however think the minuses are much greater and have farther reaching effects in the long run.

[DemExpat]

251. I also see possible negative far reaching effects.....

it will open the door to any group who wants protection from society to demand a safe-haven public school.

I guess that a challenging court case will come up soon to see if this is constitutional or not....

I believe that efforts to educate and enlighten people in schools about homosexuality and zero-tolerance for bullying is the preferred manner to try to ease this terrible social problem of non-acceptance.


DemEx

[noiretextatique]

255. oh....the horror!!!

kids demanding to be safe in school :scared: yep...it's the end of civilization as we know it. as liberal veteran mentions, this is not different for several existing programs that serve at-risk youth. as i mentioned, i know of several similar progams (public/private collabortions) that serve the needs of at-risk youth...all associated with the criminal justice system.
if you get an opportunity, check out the film "teaching tolerance." it demonstrates pretty well how crucial it is to start teaching at the primary levels. by high school, it's often too late. i support efforts like this...and i do not think one school for 100 kids in a country of 250 million people warrants such concern.
btw, the school has been operating for some time...no court challenge yet.

[Fescue4u]

274. So only gays are entitled to be safe?

Lets make a school for fat kids, a school for skinny kids, a school for kids who climb on rocks, a school for tough kids, a school for sissy kids, even a schoo for kids with Chicken pocks.

Yes! Segretion works!..We must look to the 50's for guidance in the 2000's!!

/sarcasm off

[noiretextatique]

253. right, desirable...doesn't change the FACTS

and as i mentioned in another post, your argument can be used against ANY students in existing, wrong and undesirable segregated schools. i most certainly CAN preach the need to teach and provide safe havens...i recommend it for all children. there is at least one school for black boys, not sure where...it addresses the alarmingly high drop-out rate among black males. i should think is would be the desire of a civilized country to address the REAL needs of all its students, vs. pretending everything is just fine. as to affirmative action...i support it 100%, however, the state i live in outlawed it in the state college system a few years ago. go figure.

[kenfolks]

263. A lack of forethought

There is no reason to believe that this school, if successful, will not be emulated throughout the nation. Furthermore, the rightness and wrongness of this has to matter. Certainly, it is only 100 kids, but at this point in our society, as we try to pass laws legitimizing gay marriage, and as we liberals continue to fight for education against homophobia, it is definitely counter-productive for gay kids to lump themselves into a school. The problem isn't schools, it's society. At best, this school grants some reprieve from torment during high school, only so kinds can be harrassed anew once they're out. I saw a figure of 35 million out there. I bet that money could sponsor some kick ass education in high schools.

[thom1102]

267. I know I bowed out of this thread,

But I need to interject here to correct a few things:

1) $3.2 million, not $35 million.

2) This is a program for the largest public school district in the US, if not the world. There are possibly 5 or 6 other districts in the country who are big enough to emulate this program on this scale. Solutions developed in this school could be implemented in intergrated schools throughout country.

3) NYC is the most diverse city in the world. The idea that these students, these 100-170 crisis students whom the regular public school system has failed, would be insulated from the real world because 6-8 hours a day they would be surrounded by others in their peer group, is as ridiculous as saying that because you work a 40 hour work week you are insulated from the world that is outside of your office.

[mitchtv]

268. Blackboard Jungle goes gay friendly

besides the Family reseach Council ,whoever believes that can buy the Kings County Bridge(Brooklyn).I bet Darkphenyx never thought they'd be lining up with about the most extreme homophobic groups in the US.

[noiretextatique]

272. 3.2 million...nyc school board gave for building renovation

to house the school, which has been existence for some time.
i do recommend the film "teaching tolerance" to all in this thread. i know that the 'teaching tolerance' program is being taught is some schools...it's a good one. one of the things the film demonstates is how intolerant attitudes are best combatted at an early age. and, as expected, the rw is totally opposed to this program...after all, it's about teaching tolerance and acceptance, not hatred.

i hear what you are saying, however, i do think the alarmist attitude is a bit premature, considering the school is for only 100 at-risk kids.

i support alternative education efforts...they are key to revitalizing the public school system, and i think the benefits far outweigh the potential negatives, as this school's track record proves. as to forethought...the scenario you and others see as inevitable is in fact but one of many possibilities.

i know this isn't the only program in existence for at-risk youth...there are many in criminal justice/public health depts around the country. i hope to see these efforts duplicated, and i hope to see more programs like "teaching tolerance" in the schools. i don't have a problem with both/and...and i don't understand why it MUST be either/or...just because of fear of what "might" happen?

and...i do not believe segregation is necessarily a bad thing, whether voluntary or circumstantial, nor does this school sets a precedent in that regard. the problem of course, is the institutionalized belief that some kids just don't matter...a belief that is effectively communicated to far too many children, as evidenced by suicide and drop-out rates...and in some communities, support for vouchers.

when i start teaching in the fall, in my idealism, i hope to make a difference in some kids lives. i hope i don't become jaded and overhwhelmed by the problems these kids bring to the classroom, or by the mess the school system i will be working is in. because, i understand fully well that the problems that exist in this society contribute to why some kids are at-risk, written-off, tracked, and benignly neglected and so on. i am hopeful that i am up to the task, and i am hopeful i can reach some of them, the way many of my teachers reached me.

i don't know about the rest of you, but the existence of this school give me some hope that we adults can be more interested in working to solve the actual problems so many of our children face vs. believing their problems aren't as important as are our fears about what might happen if we try to take a tiny step towards doing so.

well...that's it and that's all...i'm done.

[Fescue4u]

269. Public/Private venture is vouchers

By another name.

What the heck is going on here? The Left has been strongly against vouchers and now somebody renames the same exact process and everyone is fooled?

Baffling!??!!

[Sirius_on]

270. This is like segregation

I cant believe the GLBT community would want this. I think the pain in the ass kids should get dumped into a seperate school, not the good kids who are hassled by bullies.

[thom1102]

271. So,

Bobby Bully, has been abusing Gary Gay. After a particularly nasty incident, Bobby is transferred to a special school for bullies and district disciplinary problems. Now, since Bobby was popular, and is no longer on the football team, his teammates and friends Barry and Billy Basher decide to make poor Gary pay for getting their friend transferred, and Gary is worse off than before.

Now, instead of Bobby being transferred, Gary requests to transfer from the danger zone and is placed into an environment where he can receive conselling to deal with the issues of self hatred and self image he inexorably has. There he can study in safety and can be amongst people who understand what he is going through, because they have all experienced similar abuse, and issues, where as before he may have been the only out gay person in the school.

[Fescue4u]

273. Interesting system.

Instead of punishing the aggressor, you would prefer to reward the victim and leave the agressor alone.

Perhaps we should expand that system to society at large. Lets say that Joe robs Bill. Instead of sending Joe to jail, the state can reimburse Bill plus 10%. Joe is then free to rob again and again.

/sarcasm off

I'm shocked that anyone who considers themselves liberal could even think about supporting this.

This is right-wing 50's thinking repacked and some otherwise liberals cant see it.

[beadem]

276. The demand is there for this type of environment---why not supply it?

Maybe rather than "segregating" these students from the "real world" the school will help to integrate them into a supportive gay community, i.e. learning about how the law affects gays, gay popular culture, knowledge about companies/workplaces that at are gay-friendly, PFLAG, gay history and literature, etc. Not to mention the possibility of a more comfortable dating life. All of these support measures will help them out later in life.

I really think the school is a choice for kids who already know they are gay at age 13 and want to go to a supportive place. The demand is there for this type of environment---why not supply it?