Iraq versus the Thirteen Colonies

[JailBush]

Have you ever pondered the similarities between Iraq's war for liberation and the revolution that gave birth to the United States?

Thirteen colonies united to fight England's King George. No less than fifteen groups are said to be fighting against America's Dictator George.

The first Americans wanted the right to vote and choose their own leaders. So do Iraqis.

The British used German troops (the Hessians) as mercenaries. The United States is using privatized troops in Iraq.

Many nations supported the U.S. during its revolution, at least morally. Similarly, many nations are now supporting Iraq, not the U.S.

France was the United State's biggest ally in 1776; now it's one of our biggest critics.

One striking differnce is that, after winning their freedom, Americans continued prosecuting a bloody war against Native Americans. Iraqis ARE natives.

Other major difference are communications and democracy. British subjects weren't kept up to date on what was happening in the New World and had little opportunity to tell King George to stop. Americans do know what's happening in Iraq. Most just don't give a damn.

[Blue_Chill]

1. Who the hell is supporting the killers in Iraq?

Name the nations. Don't confuse those that opposed the war with those that support blind murder in the name of whatever religious faction they represent.

They may support a quick end to this occupation but I have seen no nation other then the 'America is the devil' theocracies support the fighters in Iraq. You have to be a blind fool to think violence will speed anything up in Iraq. The best avenue available is to become involved get elected and force your will from the inside.

[JailBush]

2. I'm not talking about blind murder. Those responsible should be tried

and convicted. I'm talking about Iraqi freedom fighters - you know, the people the White House labels "terrorists."

Few if any nations officially support them, but it's pretty obvious where there sentiments lie. You say violence won't speed anything up in Iraq. I agree. That's why I hope Team Exxon stops attacking, detaining and generally assaulting Iraqis and lets them vote.

I'm glad we agree on something.

[Blue_Chill]

3. 'freedom fighters' are killers that harm their cause

Like ALF harms animal rights and ELF harms enviromental activists. In the name of what may or may not be just causes they murder. Once you cross that line all you deserve is prison and your cause is rightly shamed and set back.

how many times must the world witness the power of nonviolent protest, the use of the human mind as opposed to the human propensity for violence. Those that resort to violence are dumb, they are low on the scale, fugitives from natural selection. This is why many of us here on DU abhor violence, we see it as a weakness not a strength, a form of mental surrender.

You want to help Iraq? Support the spread of nonviolent activism.

[JailBush]

4. Good Tips

"Like ALF harms animal rights and ELF harms enviromental activists."

How could ELF harm environmental activists? More precisely, WHAT environmental activists???

"In the name of what may or may not be just causes they murder. Once you cross that line all you deserve is prison and your cause is rightly shamed and set back."

Are you saying U.S. trooops who kill Iraqis should be sent to prison?

"This is why many of us here on DU abhor violence, we see it as a weakness not a strength, a form of mental surrender."

I think most people abhor violence. But what do you do when someone invades your country, destroys your home and kills your family - run to the nearest precicnt headquarters and vote?

"You want to help Iraq? Support the spread of nonviolent activism."

Uh, OK. I'll put a note on my website.

[Blue_Chill]

6. So then you support violence as a way towards peace?

How could ELF harm environmental activists? More precisely, WHAT environmental activists???

It harms the entire cause. It makes it harder for activists to spread their message and raise money.


Are you saying U.S. trooops who kill Iraqis should be sent to prison?

No you said that. I understand that laws favor troops over violent civilians. If you want to argue if this is fair, go for it, but it is reality.


I think most people abhor violence. But what do you do when someone invades your country, destroys your home and kills your family - run to the nearest precicnt headquarters and vote?

I've noticed that those that support the farce that is the 'iraqi freedom fighter' always leave out the whole 'removed a dictator' part. Like it or not this issue is not black and white because of Saddam. This is not the Nazi's running over democracies in europe. You can deny it and pretend it's all the same but it isn't, and I'm not going to be part of a debate framed in lunacy.

However I will say this, what do you think will make more positive difference to the people of Iraq. Voting their leaders in, getting their voices represented, or dying in the streets trying to fight a enemy you can't defeat?

This isn't vietnam friend, you don't have the luxary of super power backing or a public completely on your side. People in Iraq don't like Americans, but many don't like the idea of seeing the other groups in power either. There only choice is to support a democracy because while it is a great indignity to be occupied they aren't dumb enough to think life will be better under a hostile theocracy when they don't belong to the ruling religious faction.


Uh, OK. I'll put a note on my website.

Don't bother, just get a ticket to Iraq and go help the freedom fighters. See how far violence gets you. Good luck.

[JailBush]

7. More comments!

ME: "How could ELF harm environmental activists? More precisely, WHAT environmental activists???"

YOU: "It harms the entire cause. It makes it harder for activists to spread their message and raise money."

WHAT cause? WHAT activists? I live in liberal Seattle, which is supposedly a bastion of environmental activism. Guess what - the movement apparently died a few years ago.

ME: "Are you saying U.S. trooops who kill Iraqis should be sent to prison?"

YOU: "No you said that. I understand that laws favor troops over violent civilians. If you want to argue if this is fair, go for it, but it is reality."

Well, the Iraqi freedom fighters are reality, too.

ME: "I think most people abhor violence. But what do you do when someone invades your country, destroys your home and kills your family - run to the nearest precicnt headquarters and vote?"

YOU: "I've noticed that those that support the farce that is the 'iraqi freedom fighter' always leave out the whole 'removed a dictator' part."

Oh. If you want to emphasize deleted parts, don't stop there. You should mention HALIBURTON. Or George Bush's lies. Or Tony blair's lies. Or our new privatized military, or which country we're going to invade next. Should its citizens fight Team Exxon at the voting booth, too?

YOU: "Like it or not this issue is not black and white because of Saddam. This is not the Nazi's running over democracies in europe."

I know - it's America's corporate Nazis punishing an already savaged people and tyring to prevent any outreaks of democracy.

"You can deny it and pretend it's all the same but it isn't, and I'm not going to be part of a debate framed in lunacy."

That makes two of us.

YOU: "However I will say this, what do you think will make more positive difference to the people of Iraq. Voting their leaders in, getting their voices represented, or dying in the streets trying to fight a enemy you can't defeat?"

How are they going to vote leaders in if the U.S. won't let them?

YOU: "This isn't vietnam friend, you don't have the luxary of super power backing or a public completely on your side."

Huh??? Are you saying we were backed by a superpower during the war in Vietnam (when the only other superpower was the Soviet Union), but not now? And what public was completely on our side during Vietnam? Most of the accounts I've read mention raucous protests and riots.

"Don't bother, just get a ticket to Iraq and go help the freedom fighters. See how far violence gets you. Good luck."

Well, violence has sure been good to George Bush!

[Blue_Chill]

8. So now I get weak wit instead of actual debate? Typical.

WHAT cause? WHAT activists? I live in liberal Seattle, which is supposedly a bastion of environmental activism. Guess what - the movement apparently died a few years ago.

What cause? Last I checked a more green friendly society is a cause, it's also the one we have been discussing.

What activistis? All of them. I've worked in the nonprofit world for a while. Bad press doesn't bother your core but it makes it harder to convert the undecided. Suddenly your political clout is weakened and your cause suffers.

If you think the movement died long ago perhaps you should should tell the kind people at green peace. They would beg to differ.


Well, the Iraqi freedom fighters are reality, too.

So is their fate. To be photographed lying dead on the street while the soldiers that killed them high five eachother. Or if they are lucky they get detained stripped of their rights and housed in Cuba.

Many people have causes they are willing to die for, but that doesn't mean it's always wise to do so. One must find the most effective means to an end not just act on emotions.


Oh. If you want to emphasize deleted parts, don't stop there. You should mention HALIBURTON. Or George Bush's lies. Or Tony blair's lies. Or our new privatized military, or which country we're going to invade next. Should its citizens fight Team Exxon at the voting booth, too?

Wow you mean this like all other grand events in history is full of half truths and bullshit. Wow, thanks for opening my eyes. But hey don't let reality get you down, you keep chasing that dream where anything you just wrote is relevent enough to change anything.


I know - it's America's corporate Nazis punishing an already savaged people and tyring to prevent any outreaks of democracy.

They closer to democracy now or before the war? Think hard.


How are they going to vote leaders in if the U.S. won't let them?

The US wants a constitution and delegates. This is one of the few times in which I agree with the adminstration. Caving to the largest religious groups demands for a national election now would doom Iraq to a theocracy like its failed neighbors.


Huh??? Are you saying we were backed by a superpower during the war in Vietnam (when the only other superpower was the Soviet Union), but not now? And what public was completely on our side during Vietnam? Most of the accounts I've read mention raucous protests and riots.

I see your grasp on history is strong......


Well, violence has sure been good to George Bush!

So then you wish to emulate the man? I didn't realise you thought so highly of him.

[JailBush]

10. OK...

"What cause? Last I checked a more green friendly society is a cause, it's also the one we have been discussing."

In light of the conduct of the Green Party of Seattle, I'm not feeling terribly Gren friendly.

"What activistis? All of them."

Oh. There are probably two or three of us in Seattle.

"If you think the movement died long ago perhaps you should should tell the kind people at green peace. They would beg to differ."

I'll give Greenpeace credit, but they're stretched pretty thin between saving the oceans, saving tropical forests and fighting global warming.

ME: "Well, the Iraqi freedom fighters are reality, too."

YOU: "So is their fate. To be photographed lying dead on the street while the soldiers that killed them high five eachother. Or if they are lucky they get detained stripped of their rights and housed in Cuba."

Or they could just surrender to the United States and let Iraq be sold into slavery for six more generations.

"Many people have causes they are willing to die for, but that doesn't mean it's always wise to do so. One must find the most effective means to an end not just act on emotions."

At this point in time, I don't think voting is the most effective solution for Iraqis.

"Wow you mean this like all other grand events in history is full of half truths and bullshit."

I don't even know what you're talking about any more.

YOU: "The US wants a constitution and delegates. This is one of the few times in which I agree with the adminstration. Caving to the largest religious groups demands for a national election now would doom Iraq to a theocracy like its failed neighbors."

Come on! Do you really believe George Bush is going to let Iraqis draft their own constitution???

[Bucky]

11. I agree. It's a weak analogy. Our troops aren't the bad guys...

And the Baathists killing our troops ain't no Minute Men. They're not even like the Vietnamese VC/VM, who at least tried for years to negotiate before taking on the French in combat.

It's still a big goddamn mess, despite the lack of perfect historical parallels. We need to fix the joint up, undo the damage we're responsible for, install a quickie government, provide logistical support and advice, and get our troops the hell out of there.

[JailBush]

12. Like you said, it's a big mess.

Some Iraqis rebels ARE true freedom fighters, and some of our troops ARE bad. Let's face it, there have been far too many reports of murders, beatings, unlawful detentions, robberies and other crimes. Frankly, I wouldn't want those goons patrolling my neighborhood.

[pansypoo53219]

5. looks like

we are the redcoats.

i dont like being the bad guys anymore.

[Bucky]

9. You can fix this

by voting. And getting your friends to vote too.