Why I have mixed feelings about today’s news.

[rbnyc]

Things are not black and white. It’s much easier to believe that they are. We’re good, he is evil, we got him, we’re proud and happy. It’s a very simple worldview, and difficult to refute. We all notice how nearly everyone who tries to illuminate the gray areas prefaces their examination with some sort of disclaimer: “We all know that Saddam is an evil man.” or “There’s no disputing that the world is better off without Saddam.” Critics know that those who promote the black & white way of seeing have an easier job, and don’t want to end up on the wrong side.

We’re all aware of “being watched” and how our reactions today play to the predators from the black & white world. Trying to talk about all this in a way that recognizes the complexities is not easy. We may be misunderstood. We may even find ourselves attracted to that black and white world. We wouldn’t want anyone to think that we sympathize with an evil man.

We all want a world with less poverty, less torture, fewer despots, more equity, less hypocrisy, and more democracy. Does the capture of Saddam Hussein today contribute to that aim? In some respects it does. In some respects, it does not. So I’m more concerned than elated.

When we support, fund and arm dictators, then cast them as villain as part of our own exported civil war, then take them down and call ourselves heroes, I’m more concerned than elated. His capture may contribute to an Iraq free of him but it also contributes to a world where America can build and destroy regimes at her own convenience.

When we say that Saddam Hussein is our reason for being in Iraq, the men and women who are risking their lives there may expect some relief when Saddam is captured. But that relief isn’t coming. So I’m more concerned than elated. His capture may be a relief to many in Iraq, but it also contributes to the mission-creep of an illegitimate occupier unfortunately composed of young human beings who will harm and be harmed.

There’s a reason that the ends do not justify the means. When a positive result is used to justify a violent, immoral and illegal act, we create a world that invites more violence, immorality, and crime. When a positive result is used to justify war, we create a world that invites more war.

Then there’s the question of justice. Is it just to hold one man accountable for horrors that were enabled and overlooked by those who judge him? Can any real justice come out of this situation?

It’s improbable, and looking at it in a good v. evil frame makes it less probable. So I’m not thrilled. I don’t think it’s great. I think the entire situation sucks. I’m simply not deluded enough to celebrate.

I guess I'd be interested in hearing if you've felt a pressure to see it in a good v. evil way and have struggled to embrace a more nuanced view.

(I know there are a lot of threads concerning general feelings about the capture of Saddam Hussein. I wanted to start my own. I hardly ever start threads in GD. I hope this isn’t considered a dupe.)

[Gingersnap]

1. kick

Nice thread rbnyc!

:kick:

[rbnyc]

2. Thanks fellow peace_kitty!

I was sure this would be archived with zero replies in about 15 minutes.

;-)

[G_j]

5. I really enjoyed it, nice post

"Let the sun shine"

[G_j]

3. I see it as a possible gift to us all

The article puts into words what I've been thinking all day but I could never state as well. I tried a number of times today to convey how I thought this would bring attention to the issue of International Law which has always got to be bad for Bush. My belief is that any amount of sunlight shining into BFEE dealings weakens them. This is why I view today's events to be a possible gift to us all.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/121403Mavaak/121403mavaak.html


Will Saddam's capture prove to be a trap for Bush?

By Mathew Maavak
Online Journal Contributing Writer

December 14, 2003

It was pretty much of a shock to learn of Saddam Hussein's capture so soon. Then again, come to think of it, no! George W. Bush's popularity is dipping badly and those niggling questions about Sept 11 are now gaining feverish momentum.

This capture comes timely for the incumbent, and the immediate propaganda value will be enormous. But has Bush walked into a trap? Pretty likely, and the next few weeks or months are going to be crucial. Saddam's fate must now either be decided quickly (through an Iraqi bullet to his head?) or be prolonged long enough after the 2004 elections, through a series of legal wrangling. If the second scenario works out, there is there every likelihood of an uncustomary "adherence to international law" with teams of amici curiae given a free hand to wrangle over his legal rights. It will buy lots of time, provided the man shuts up.

This capture runs against the grain of obvious logic. Saddam is no Manual Noriega and he will command far more attention than Slobodan Milosevic. The video clip of him being examined by a doctor was typical of both US bravado and myopia. With him in "expert" medical hands, there will be some very hard explaining to do if anything untoward happened a death or an unusually cooperative ex-dictator known for his wily tricks. Maybe a Soviet-style psychiatric institutionalization might jog his memory, one that will suit his hospitable hosts.

According to the BBC, Saddam was found holed up in a tiny cellar, not the secret command bunker we were implicitly led to believe, on and off. An argument can be made that this 'spider hole' contributed to his elusiveness. He just needed a food chain, from very few sources. Still, it is not a good one. For one, it will smash the Saddam in-the-secret bunker image that his Fedayeen found to be way over-hyped. There is something wrong here. Saddam may have indeed chosen a six by eight feet hole for safety as he knew only too well about the pandemic Arab treachery and the US$25 million bounty, especially after his sons died under a hail of US bullets, and his sons-in-law earlier, with his own blessings.
...more...

[rbnyc]

6. Thanks so much for posting that...

...and posting the links.

But has Bush walked into a trap? Pretty likely, and the next few weeks or months are going to be crucial. Saddam's fate must now either be decided quickly (through an Iraqi bullet to his head?)

I was worried about this earlier today.

[proud patriot]

4. 167 billion Tax dollars 437 American lives to get an Evil Evil Man

based on LIES about WMD coming in the form of a mushroom
cloud . Yes send Saddam to the hague is a good thing .
Yes Saddam was Evil Tortured his people , but that is
not why we were told we went to war .

120 dictators such as Saddam are in power in the world
right now . What are our Plans for these Dictators
Especially in Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. Which our
Govermnet calls allies ?

Are We prepared to be consistant with this ?
Or is Saddam the only one that we are going to take out ?

Meanwhile 2 percent of Cargo ships are checked coming into our
ports . ABC news was able to smuggle WMD into the port
of Los Angles a few weeks ago .

The Fourth Amendment is still null and Void

The taliban is still regrouping in Afgan.
Heroin is still a bumper crop for warlords there .

The evironmental Safety Standards are still being rolled back

Veterans Benefits are still being cut

Overtime pay is still gone for Millions of Americans

Anti American Companies still not supporting America
through tax dollars are still getting Government National
Security contracts.

More National Guard and Reservist Troops are on foreign
soil than ever before in our history .

No one that I have talked to today of my A political friends
has changed their mind about Really Disliking bush.
They still can't stand the guy .

I say pish posh to all the negativity . The American
People are not Fools at least not a majority of them .

Did anyone ever believe that Saddam would not be found
dead or alive ? I thought he would and finding him
didn't surprise me .

I honestly believe that had bush just said "Hey Saddam is
horrible we want to help the Iraqi people" that the
world would accepted it . And far more allies would of
joined us . The way bush went about it was a mistake and
it's still costing Americans both in tax dollars and
in Soldiers lives more than it ever should have .

[rbnyc]

10. "120 dictators such as Saddam"!

Right the fuck on! Your post deserves its own tread! You should send that to the editorial section of every paper.

[proud patriot]

21. Wow thanks .. I'll send it out

:hi:

[rbnyc]

23. I'm so glad!!

I'm going to edit my post and add some things and send it too. Ya'll inspired me.

Please let us know if anyone prints it!

:loveya:

[G_j]

16. 120 dictators

it's good to have that vague knowledge that the world is filled with dictators brought down to a number. It helps put things in perspective.

It's silly to focus on 'moving targets' such as "they haven't caught Saddam". When people start saying "but they didn't get Ossama" watch out, they may just come up with him also. It's way to easy to be set up.
The fact is numerous real crimes, some treasonous have occured. There has been a subversion of democracy and the Constitution. There is solid evidence.

All the things you mention are fact, there's no getting around them.

[rbnyc]

17. Good point. (nt)

[Skinner]

7. Good post.

One of the more thoughtful things I've read on DU today. It would be a shame if this sunk off the first page without more replies.

At a time like this, there is great pressure to embrace the black and white view. We see it on DU, on both "sides" of this particular event. I think when people spend some time thinking about it, they are able to see the shades of grey. But in the heat of the moment, on TV or on an Internet message board, sometimes it's just easier to go with the black & white.

[rbnyc]

11. Woah! You made my night.

I was thinking about this all day today at work and I couldn't wait to get here and post.

[truth2power]

8. Thank you, rb

An excellent post. You have put my feelings into words better than I ever could. I have been troubled all day by all the hoo-ha that is going on over the capture of SH. There is so much complexity in this but it's being painted in stark black/white terms by the media.

This evening while I was making supper I heard Leslie Stahl I think it was, interviewing Rumsfeld. Rummy was putting it all in such simplistic terms, while I was seeing in my mind that picture of him shaking hands with Sadaam.

It disturbs me greatly that Americans appear to have absolutely no historical memory regarding the fact that we once enabled and promoted sadaam's atrocities.

[rbnyc]

13. That's a picture that should be fresh in people's minds.

Thank you.

[Zomby Woof]

9. Like the holidays...

The euphoric buzz of Survivor-America will wear off after New Year's, and the body counts will resume. The short American/soundbite-encrusted attention span may help us yet. They will say "Yeah! We got him!" one day, and in a few months, go back to worrying about what's in it for them, and when are the soldiers coming home.

I daresay we don't know the long-term effects of this, but they won't be all bad for the case against Bush.

:hi: René!

[rbnyc]

14. Hey!

Thanks for the reassurance. The hype can be overwhelming.

[alcuno]

12. Talking to my mom today she said she almost felt sorry for him.

And mom voted for * in Florida. She said Hussein didn't look like much of a threat to the United States. I think many people have mixed feelings about this whole thing. If Saddam is some sort of a prize I'm not really sure what sort that would be.

[rbnyc]

15. Thanks for sharing about your mom.

That's pretty interesting. I wonder how many people who voted for * felt the same way.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. tell your Mom I understand

I wondered if he is really the boogyman he is made out to be. There is so much propaganda how would we ever know.
I kind of had this image of bush having the man's head mounted on the wall of the oval office.

[Justice]

52. Not Sorry, Not Pity, Incredulous

I don't feel sorry for him, or pity him. My reaction was more - this is the guy who is the huge threat to us? That people have been fighting for (since May) - I don't think so. Hussein did not look like he was leading opposition forces against us - he looked like he had been living underground and isolated.

I think his condition underscores the imbalance in our actions - we took down this small man (brutal as he may be) who is nothing. I heard Fox note that it is Sadaam's Number #2 guy who is leading the opposition - Fox gets the fact that people will look at Hussein and conclude there is no way this guy is leading anyone against us.

My read is that Hussein's condition makes him look like less of a threat and will make people realize that the fighting in Iraq is not "pro Hussein forces" its people who want us out of there.

[alcuno]

59. When FAUX first latched on to the Al Douri connection, they kept

showing video of Al Douri, the former representative to the United Nations. They get so much wrong on that station that they are often funny to watch.

[sistersofmercy]

18. No I agree with your sentiments for those and other reasons

Uncomfortable is how I feel. I'm uncomfortable cheering about the people who were around to arm Saddam in the 80's and are here to be a part fo taking him out now. I'm uncomfortable celebrating with a government who withdrew from world court, lost its seat in the UN Human Rights Committee, used Mark 77 firebombs (Napalm of a slightly different mix) to gain advantage in the initial bombing campaign, and has slaughtered and maimed tens of thousands innocent civilians. I'm uncomfortable concurring with a concept for justification for this criminal war often repeated bush* "Saddam was an evil dictator." I'm uncomfortable knowing that while Saddam's deeds will monopolize our media for the next year or so, the # 2 human rights violator on the top ten list, Saudi Arabia, US ally, will get a free pass to continue to victimize its people (Saddam was # 9), along with other countries from the list. I'm uncomfortable toasting a capture that will increase attacks on our troops who are in a criminal war based on lies.

[rbnyc]

19. For my 7000th post, let me thank you.

I come to DU because I want to know that I'm not alone. I read your post, and I know that for sure.

I want to take different elements from the posts in this thread and write a letter to the editor to send to every paper in the country.

[sistersofmercy]

20. No thank you, I'm honored to be a part of your 7000th post

Congratulations on that achievement!:kick:

[rbnyc]

22. I hope NY99 is around here somewhere.

I'm such a Lounge girl at heart.

:loveya:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. #2, #9... what list is it? HRW? Amnesty? I'm curious.

My bet is Kim Jong Il is #1. Am I right?

[sistersofmercy]

57. Yes

It's a list that was published in US News and World Report IIRC back in March of this year, all the major humna rights groups, AI, HRW among others contributed and agreed to the top ten list. I have it here somewhere, I always save articles important to me.

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Good analysis.

"When we support, fund and arm dictators, then cast them as villain as part of our own exported civil war, then take them down and call ourselves heroes..."

Bush worshipers don't want to hear truth like above.

[rbnyc]

25. civil war

The "Bush Worshipers" don't want to hear it because the most valuable thing in their lives is their hatred for us. Sometimes I wonder what I'm willing to accept in service to my hatred of them.

(At least we're willing to ask ourselves that question.)

I really do see the situation in Iraq as our civil war exported. I'm glad that struck a chord with you.

EDIT: typo

[rbnyc]

26. So I was thinking...

...should I throw a 7000 post party for myself in the Lounge, or kick my own thread in GD?

If I decide to do both will you forgive me?

:kick:

EDIT: I couldn't do it without a typo.

[bpilgrim]

27. nothing to celebrate that is for sure...

the ONLY positive i see from this arrest is that even more americans will preceive the war over and start asking questions about why we are still there and hopefully that will lead to our troops comming hme sooner rather than later.

on the other hand i know even that victory will be short lived as we put just another TYRANICAL system in place to RULE and POLICE the people untill there is even more violence in a civil war.

but somehow this misadministration seems to make things worse than anyone would have expected so i am definately depresed and have to often remind myself that there is nothing healthy bout being well adjusted to a SICK society ;->

excellent post :toast:

peace

[rbnyc]

29. Oh man, It's SO good to see you, bpilgrim.

I always love what you have to say. I'm really glad you chimed in on this.

:hi:

[bpilgrim]

31. likewise rbnyc

always a voice for reason, compassion, and justice something i am always appreciative for.

another reason to thank gore he 'invented' the internet ;->

we all get to be reminded daily - and i certainly need it these days - that i am not alone.

:loveya:

peace

[rbnyc]

32. Before I start to cry...

...come on over and have a drink with me.

[KG]

28. well said.

[rbnyc]

30. Thx. (nt)

[gulliver]

33. Well put.

There is a difference between not wanting to make a big deal out of the capture of Hussein and being unhappy he was caught. I view his capture as a minor good thing in the big picture. It would be major only if the resistance collapsed tomorrow and Iraq suddenly began to show signs that it is on the road to stability. I don't expect that to happen, so I don't expect the capture of Hussein to be major.

Unfortunately, as you say, the capture can be a major negative if people think it is important, yet it has no measurable impact on our occupation predicament. If we still have as many troops on the ground as if it never happened ... if we still get as many troops attacked as before ... if Iraqi politics shows signs of further destabiliation, then how can the capture of Saddam be counted as anything important at all?

It only could for political reasons, for reasons of protecting the idiots who got us into this mess under false pretenses.

That's why I also have mixed feelings.

[rbnyc]

35. Thanks.

And thanks for adding your thoughts.

[DUreader]

34. Thankyou

[rbnyc]

36. Hi DUreader!

You're welcome.

:hi:

[proud patriot]

37. A kick for a great thread

:hi:

[Karenina]

38. Another kick!

It's just another photo op as this travesty was NEVER about "Saddam." He sure made a great boogeyman, eh? NOW WHAT? Thanx Rbnyc for your clear-sighted post.

[Cheswick2.0]

39. Excellent post

" There’s a reason that the ends do not justify the means. When a positive result is used to justify a violent, immoral and illegal act, we create a world that invites more violence, immorality, and crime. When a positive result is used to justify war, we create a world that invites more war."

IMO just one terrific point amoung many in the post.

[rbnyc]

43. Thanks so much.

I know people at work today are going to ask me what I think. Maybe I'll just tell them to visit GD.

[letthewindblow]

41. Great post rbnyc!

kick!

[rbnyc]

42. Thanks.

And welcome to DU!

:hi:

[PSR40004]

44. What a quandry...400,000+ Iraqis vs 400+ Americans...

I understand with mass graves in Iraq containing over 400,000 civilians was it worth the money and the American lives to end it. As much as I hate to say it but this guy had to be stopped, but the cost is heavy for some and my heart goes out to those.

I too have mixed feelings, I was expecting the war on terrorism to be the issue of the election and one reason I was leaning Dean. Now what do we have? The economy? That might not go our way as well if things continue in the way they did last quarter.

Good news we got Sadam, bad news for us electing a president.

[rbnyc]

46. About 400,000+ v. 400+...

...I don't think it's that simple either. By going about things the wrong way we have not decreased the likelihood of this kind of thing continuing to happen. And by only paying attention to the despot who's politically expedient for us to pay attention to, we provide a kind of camouflage for the 100+ other murderous despots committing horrors against millions of other people.

Also, I agree with a lot of people here who think it's a better idea to run on our own positive attributes than to count on a failed war and failed economy. I'm don't want to have to rely on other people's failure's for my success. I think we have more to offer than that.

;-)

[Tigerlily]

45. Wow, rbnyc.

Extremely well said. :loveya:

[rbnyc]

47. Thanks Tigerlily!

And now I'm late for work!

:hi:

[Tigerlily]

48. Have a good day, rbnyc!

You have helped me understand exactly what I could not articulate. Thank you so much!

[catmandu57]

53. You've echoed my thoughts rbnyc

I've been thinking along the same lines, I'm glad someone said what you have. Time will tell keeps coming to mind, When things keep on as they are now or worsen in the coming weeks, then the black/white will become really cloudy, forcing people to do something they don't do enough of THINK. And, when people start thinking, thats bad news for power anywhere.
Thanks for the great post, kick it up.

[proud patriot]

54. Great to see you posting Tigerlily

I miss you :loveya:

[buddhamama]

50. excellent post,rbnyc

you have summed up my feelings exactly.

thank you!

[Tinoire]

51. Whoaa! Excellent post!

You nailed my feelings right on the head. Thank you for so beautifully expressing what so many of us feel:

So I’m not thrilled. I don’t think it’s great. I think the entire situation sucks. I’m simply not deluded enough to celebrate.

Thanks and peace :)

[Blue_Roses]

55. thank-you for

expressing the words that pinpoint my feelings and the many "chats" I have been having with myself since his capture. You're right, it's not just black and white, especially when the motive for going to war is so much different than the outcome.

[rbnyc]

56. Thank you and thanks to everyone else...

...who's added to this thread. We are not alone. We will get through these times together.

[G_j]

58. that was a breath of fresh air

I'm so glad you put your thoughts into words to share here. :-)

[Catherine Vincent]

60. This post is going a long way. Good thing I praised you yesterday,

I know a good post when I see one.;-)

[Uzybone]

61. I think most have mixed feelings

but insinuating that those who are simply saying "well damn Saddam is a criminal and now he may actually face justice" are deluded or Bush backers is ridiculous.

I do not see anything bad in that fact. The war is on right now, Saddams capture doesnt change that. This hand wringing over people "celebrating" Saddams capture is filled with strawmen. I can speak for myself only, but Im guessing most people who are opposed to the war are not suddenly happy with it now just because a despot is in custody.

[rbnyc]

62. OK

OK

First, since I was not making an argument, rather describing my feelings and their context, I don’t see how anything I said could be a straw man. If you don’t agree, could you be specific? Because I don’t fully understand what you’re trying to say.

Also, it’s hard for me to digest your criticism when you first have to paraphrase what you’ve extracted from my post into a sentence that’s much more extreme than anything I actually wrote. It would be easier for me to understand your criticism if you’d respond to what I did say.

I’m not saying that you have to do either of these things, but if you want me to understand what you think is wrong with my point of view it would help if you’d be specific and stay in the text.

If you don’t feel the same way I do, that’s fine. I may have an opinion about it, but it’s fine. But if you’re telling me I’m wrong, I don’t understand that, because I’m only telling you how I feel.

Let me add one thing. I do think we're on the same page when you say, "I can speak for myself only, but Im guessing most people who are opposed to the war are not suddenly happy with it now just because a despot is in custody."