The most disturbing aspect of the anti Dean supporter meme

[dsc]

is that it is lock stock and barrel the anti gay meme that some of us are so familiar with. For many, many, many months I have not advanced this theory due to not wanting to be accused of misusing the cause of anti gay bigotry. But it is hard to remain silent as the evidence piles up and piles up. This is not about people who attack Dean himself but those who attack his supporters over and over again. They use the same meme each and everytime. And over and over I challenge it and nothing is brought to bear to back it up.

Deanie stereotype number 1 we are all emotional. Gee, where oh where have I heard that one before. Could it be the several emotional gay characters I saw in movies growing up? Could it be the several emotional gays in books or on TV? Could it be Jack? I have been called all of the following my supporters of other candiates, liar, diaper wearer (no I am not making that up it was on DU1 though), innumerable cuss words, homo, and several other names. Yet I have not once posted trash talk about how supporters of candidate x or y are emotional bullies. Yet this is the meme of Dean supporters and it just Oh so happens to directly coincide with one of the top ones of gays.

Deanie stereotype number 2 we are self absorbed cultists who flitter from cause to cause. Again, does Jack sound familiar. Again another coincidence?

Deanie stereotype number 3 We are know nothings when it comes to issues. The funny thing here is that many of the people who repeatedly say this make howlers themselves in their posts. Yet the very next day they will run their keyboards about how ignorant Deanies are on the issues of the day. Again, this is a Jack stereotype of gays. Another coincidence?

Are the bashers of Dean supporters consciously anti gay? No probably not. But it seems very odd to me that the memes used so neatly coincide with the memes I heard growing up about gays. It is hard to write that off as mere coincidence. We are never given butch stereotypes. Deanies aren't accused of being too logical, or too into issues. You wonder why some of us supporters of Dean find this aggrivating. Now you know.

[dsc]

1. kick

:kick:

[JustJoe]

2. What's the "Jack" reference specifically?

[dsc]

14. Jack McFarland

character on Will and Grace.

[retyred]

3. Are the bashers of Dean supporters consciously anti-gay?

Is dean gay? Is that why I don't like him? Your annalogy speaks volumes, anti-dean = anti-gay. Is this the new dean meme? Your either for dean or your against gays?

Although I've never considered myself anti-gay (having a gay son and all), I am anti-dean so I'll have to think about it!


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[nuxvomica]

4. I don't see it

Some Dean supporters annoy me the way they gush over Dean, blithely criticize other candidates and cry foul whenever Dean is criticized. I'm sure others are reacting to that dynamic among Dean supporters. There's a lot of hubris among some of these folks and you've got to expect people to react to that. Yeah, the cult stuff is unfair but to see an anti-gay aspect to all of this is to me a smokescreen.

edit: changed "fowl" to "foul". LOL.

[HFishbine]

12. Please view these ads

and tell me if you think they are warranted:

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

[nuxvomica]

13. Funny thing, I just saw them via another thread

I think the bin Laden one is over-the-top but the NAFTA-Medicare-NRA one seems fair enough. To say that Dean can't compete with Bush on foreign policy is silly. Bush's foreign policy is a shambles and there's no way that Dean could do worse.

[HFishbine]

17. Uh, oh -- your avatar

I'm going to try to be polite by keeping my words to a minimum. I'll stick to the facts with no commentary. The ads, including the one you condemn, are sponsored by a group headed by a Gephardt contributor:





http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=3

[not systems]

16. Outrageous.

"plot every day to deatroy western civilization"..."Howard Dean"

This ad is is Neo-con crap. The construct of terror has
proven to be one created for war profitering and land grabing.

Bush has walked away from the world order that keep the peace
for 50+ years and abandoned the works of the WWII generation
in creating a world free of unilateral militarism.

Who is fronting the cash for these ads?

KBR Halliburton?

[HFishbine]

18. Halliburton?

Try Gephardt supporters:

Former Congressman Edward Feighan is the President of Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values. He is also currently the Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of ProCentury Corporation, the parent of the Century Insurance Group based in Columbus, Ohio. The Century Insurance Group is a specialty-lines insurer, writing commercial property/casualty insurance for niche markets nationwide, operating in 49 States and has annual gross premiums of approximately $175 million. Mr. Feighan has served as member of the board of directors of ProCentury since October, 2000.

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=3

Now see FEC filings in post #17 above.

[goodhue]

5. not all Dean critics are "anti-gay"

Please see
http://resources.kucinich.us/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=3

[maddezmom]

6. where is meme coming from?

are you saying from supporters of other dem candidates or the repugs? You've lost me. One of the reasons I support Clark is his support for civil unions and stance on gays in the military.

[sandnsea]

7. anti-Kerry = anti-troops?

What we really are, is anti-losing. Plain and simple.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. I just wnat to say

That all the flaming going on by anti Dean, and, sad to say, by some Dean supporters as well, does nothing to help Democrats. If anyone flaming anyone thinks you are changing minds, you are wrong. I'm sure Clark supporters who are flamed by Dean supporters only strengthen their support of their candidate. Personally, the flame wars have made me decide to contribute more to Dean.

The only one, and I mean this sincerely, who wins over this flaming is GW Bush.

So stop, already!

[Hep]

10. Take solace

in the fact that this forum is completely irrelevant.

[deminflorida]

9. I think that everyone is missing the point.....

the object of the primaries is to allow the democratic party to elect the candidate that is best suited to challange Bush in the 2004 election. If this means considering how the country as a whole will view and be receptive to all the issues, then I hate to rain on everyone's parade but it means just exactly that.

[adadem]

29. And challenging

that candidate (and his/her supporters) with hard hitting questions, forcing responses on questionable issues, etc. Especially in this election the Dems must get all the questions answered well before the general.

[dsc]

11. I have to say that either my writing skills or your all's readings skills

stink. In my defense I wrote this: "This is not about people who attack Dean himself but those who attack his supporters over and over again. They use the same meme each and everytime. And over and over I challenge it and nothing is brought to bear to back it up." Yet every post here says I equated bashing Dean with being anti gay. Maybe "this is not about" doesn't mean what I think it does. I always thought the words "this is not about" meant that what follows is not the subject of the post. Is that somehow wrong? Please advise.

[nuxvomica]

15. Perhaps if you didn't use words like "meme" and "Jack"...

folks might understand. I read you're piece as an attempt to associate criticism of Dean supporters with some sort of anti-gay mentality. I wasn't entirely sure so I tried to give some insight into what I think drives some of the anti-Dean supporter rhetoric. Speak plainly and folks will understand better.

[w4rma]

19. I understood dsc's post, perfectly. Why do you feel the need to act so

rudely, nuxvomica?

[dsc]

32. cafeful

you are equating being anti Dean with being rude. You know you are so just stop it.

[dsc]

20. I will give you this

your post actually did discuss criticism of Dean supports. BTW I would like some citation of my criticism of other candidates etc. But in fairness I should have not lumped your post with the others. Though your post then engaged in the same crap while justifying it which was a nice touch. The fact is that there are about 2 or 3 Dean supporters tops out of well over 50 who engage in the behavior you are stating.

[nuxvomica]

21. I said what I said

You may be right about the numbers, who knows. And I didn't accuse you of bashing other candidates. I was just speaking generally about why I sometimes get annoyed with some Dean supporters. If you think that annoyance is totally misplaced, then fine. That's what I'd like to hear. And I swear that "meme" and "Jack" really did confuse me.

[sandnsea]

22. It's insulting and meant to be

Dress it up any way you want to, the implications are obvious. Rovian. If you're against Bush you're against the troops, America whatever. If you're against Dean, you're against gays. Insulting. Undignified. Pure trash.

[dsc]

26. No it is simply true

but if I were calling the supporters of candidates vile names or trashing them and got called on it I would probably try to weasel out of it as well.

[sandnsea]

27. So you are saying we're anti-gay

Is that it???

[dsc]

31. Actually if you read my post

and cleary you didn't since this is the second time you have misstated it baldly I said that your probably weren't consciously anti gay. It ia amazing how often Dean supporters are accused of not reading posts before responding by people like you.

[dand]

23. Please explain

meme, jack,
I apologise for being ignorant

[Fahrenheit911]

24. don't take it so serious

I think theyy just want to win..

I'm still with Dean, but I'm going to wait and see what he does before the prmiaries to try and help his popularity in polls..

at the end of the day Ihave no absolute dedication to any candiadate that means I must bash another candidate..
But I'm going to pick the one who is best on the issues and who is the most likely to kick shrubie in 2004

[WilliamPitt]

25. meme meme bo beme banana fanna fo fene me my mo mene

meme!

[slinkerwink]

28. that's ignoring the power of memes

[IndianaGreen]

30. We can expect more homophobic hate-filled attacks if Dean is the nominee

The entire anti-Dean Rove campaign is build around the "gay marriage" wedge issue (Dean supports civil unions--which should apply to both hetero and gay couples) and the "liberal" tag (which applies to anyone with a "D" after their name, including Lieberman).

I almost dread the ugliness that is to come. What we have in here is a clash between two opposite views of the sort of country America is supposed to be. The opposition want an America that is ruled by their religious values, which happen to be extremely sectarian (anyone here remembers when Lutheran fundies purged Concordia Seminary from "liberal"?) and sees nothing morally wrong in persecuting homosexuals or in subjugating other nations.

[Duncan Grant]

34. That is the most salient point...

about the impending campaign that I've seen for a long while. As Democrats, we should be framing these arguements in the same clear and concise manner as you IndianaGreen. I look forward to more posts like yours in here in GD (maybe after the primaries are over, I hope). :yourock:

[QC]

33. dsc, I'm gayer than a tree full of parrots, and I don't see it.

Maybe it's just because I've never seen "Will and Grace," and maybe it's just because I have an extreme aversion to the word "meme," having watched it spread through DU like typhoid through a slum, but I really don't see it.

There are some Dean supporters who fit your description. Likewise, there are supporters of all the candidates who fit your description. All of the candidates have some obnoxious followers who descend like harpies on anyone who ventures even the most timid criticism, seem to be running on pure emotion, don't seem to know much about the candidates the profess to support, and all of that.

Criticizing that kind of behavior is perfectly legit. Attributing it to all of a candidate's supporters is wrong. We agree on this. But I don't see some kind of unconscious homophobic agenda behind criticism of cultish followers.

[robbedvoter]

35. Anti-gay? as in" I am as uncomfortable with it as anyone else"

(In reference to the civil unions resolution). That anti-gay?????

[dsc]

36. that was gay marriage

and you know it. You are disembling when you pretend otherwise.

[mzmolly]

37. We don't know who Dean is.... were naive on his positions...

Let's see Al Gore, Molly Ivins, Jesse Jackson Jr. and countless others are 'ignorant' on Deans positions/the issues :eyes: I'm in damn good company. ;)