Dean Has Too Much Bush In Him

[freesqueeze]

Howard dean is gaining support in Democratic circles and I’m not convinced that this is the best course for this party that hopes to take over the White House in ’05.

Problem is that Dean shares some of the same political weaknesses that Bush has to run from whenever his own history is examined. First example is the whole ‘what did you do in the war?’ question. Bush used his family’s influence to leap frog over others waiting in line for a coveted slot in the Texas National Guard and then ended up going AWOL after he transferred out of state. Pretty damning and this information is still out there and has never been reasonably disputed.

You would think that a hypothetical person who publicly burned their draft card and marched in the streets against the war would have the ethical advantage the current President. But then you hear that Dean used some medical deferment to get past the draft board and then spent most of the next year skiing. Surly there is much more to this story but it sounds almost as bad as Mr. Bush’s case of combat avoidance.

The problem is not really military service but hypocrisy. How can Bush be such a hawk now when he let someone else take his place in Vietnam? In the same light, how disabled was Dr. Dean when he was able to go skiing instead of Southeast Asia? I don’t know all the specifics but the Dean story puts the strangest picture in my mind of a young Howard Dean showing some X-Ray to the draft board and all the while his Volvo idles in the parking lot with skis strapped over the roof.

The second annoying similarity is that both Bush and Dean are Blue Blooded-Trust-Fund-Babies who have never in their life had to worry about their financial future. The skids were well greased for both of these silver-spoon-debutants. Call me old fashioned but I think that the Democrats best chance will be with someone completely unlike Bush. I would support a product of the middle class that served in Vietnam (or at least didn’t hide from it), worked his way through state college and would never lie to the American people.

That would be refreshing!

[Padraig18]

1. Dean flame bait thread #42 for Friday.

Do you guys work in shifts, or something? :eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

4. yep

*Waiting on next Rove check* :D

[Padraig18]

7. LOL!

*smack* Have you fed the yaks today, you impudent pup? :P

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

15. OK.

They were looking rather thin the other day... ;)

[eileen_d]

9. There you are, Zomby!

Didn't you get the memo? Us Rovies are meeting for Happy Hour at TGI Fridays! :P

Seriously, these criticisms of Dean have been brought up over and over again... they don't work for me, and I doubt they'll change anybody's mind.

[Raya]

108. NOT FLAME: Dean Really Like Bush In Many Ways

(I posted this as a new post. Told I broke rule by continuing flame thread. I guess I am supposed to post here. I have seen pretty strong posts on other topics on DU. I don't work for any campaign, but am
really upset that my Dean friends close their eyes and ears to
obvious issues with their candidate.)



Numerous debates with my Dean-supporting friends have convinced me that Dean is much more a mirror of BUSH than a complement of Kerry, Clark or any of the other major candidates. For example:

Dean’s arrogance and pugnacity is much like Bush's swagger and shoulders-squared jauntiness.

Dean’s Vietnam draft-dodge to the ski-slopes is much like Bush’s “daddy swung” sweet vacation in the Texas air national guard.

Dean’s death-penalty and NRA lobby record is only exceeded by Bush’s Texas hangman career.

Dean’s anti-war activist campaign is matched in phoniness by Bush’s compassionate conservative rhetoric.

Dean is man of shallow thought depending on Joe Trippi for direction, as George “let me check with my …” Bush depends on Karl Rove to direct his every political move.

Dean refers to “my advisors” for national security expertise just like George “the dictator of Pakistan is “the general,” Bush needed Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Wolfowitz to tell him what to do.


NEXT ….

[Very Good Dem]

16. Is there any

criticism or even question that can be raised about Dean that Dean supporters don't see as flamebait?

Freesqueeze raises legitimate concerns that trouble many, many voters. Why do you think that their views are vindictive or just plain don't matter?

[Padraig18]

19. "Legitimate concerns"?

Dean has been a loyal Democrat for his entire adult life, he has won election as a Democrat NUMEROUS time, he has helped our party in innumerable ways over the years, and he has the gall to compare him to *? The freakin' NERVE!

:grr:

[Very Good Dem]

33. Just because YOU don't have the same concerns

doesn't mean that these concerns are not legitimate to others.

Everyone doesn't have the same perspective you have and everyone doesn't think that Dean's stuff don't stank. Lots of people have some real problems with him and those problems aren't going to go away just because Dean's true believers stick their fingers in their ears and bellow, "I'm not listening to you!!!"

Perhaps instead of dismissing the views of these folks as irrelevant or stupid, Dean supporters should try a little harder to understand why people feel this way (and try to also to understand that disagreeing with Dean is not an ipso facto attack). You might win over a few more people that way.

[Padraig18]

43. Unless he can crawl into a poor woman's womb...

... and manage to be reborn into a poor family there's damned little that can be done to address these so-called 'concerns'. FDR and JFK were both rich, as is Sen. Jay Rockefeller, yet no on has 'concerns' about THEIR births.

Sorry, it doesn't pass the 'smell test'...

[eileen_d]

50. LOL - nice smackdown

:yourock:

[LawSchoolLiberal]

60. And what about

Senator Kerry? Not a slam, but isn't he still the richest guy in the Senate? His wife like a Heinz ketchup heiress or something, right? If money's a deterrant for you, cool, but history has shown that it's usually not a key factor for many people. If people are looking to dislike somebody, they can usually find a better reason. Me I'm still listening to everyone.

[drfemoe]

85. Yeah . Mrs. John Kerry who made him sign a prenup /nt

[jsw_81]

98. Kerry

Not only is Kerry the richest man in the Senate, but he's by far the richest man in the entire Congress! His wife's fortune is estimated to be around $700 million. That's not rich, that's filthy rich. Dean, if I'm not mistaken, is only worth about one or two million, not uncommon for a family that includes two fifty-something doctors.

[Very Good Dem]

61. It's not about birth

It's about attitude and what one did with one's privileges.

It was one of the very interesting contrasts drawn between Bush and Gore. Although they came from similar backgrounds, they did different things with their lives - and developed very different policies and philosophies as a result.

I'm not saying that Dean is a bad guy, but people do have a problem with his background and what they see as arrogance, privilege and a failure to connect with regular folks. The fact that YOU don't agree doesn't make those concerns any less relevant. And, as I said, dismissing those concerns and attacking anyone who raises them does your candidate no good - in fact, it further exacerbates the trepidation some people feel about him.

[Cha]

66. Then those people aren't paying attent;ion...

Because Dean has had a very productive life.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

68. He became a doctor and moved to a rural state.

Priveledged bastard!

[ozone_man]

79. A family doctor at that.

And sent his kids through the public school system. Coached his kid's hockey team. Plays hockey himself out on Lake Champlain. He doesn't sound like an elitist to me.

[drfemoe]

83. I don't even see how you can say

this ..

but people do have a problem with his background and what they see as arrogance, privilege and a failure to connect with regular folks.

What 'people'? 'People' who don't like Dean. Yet those of us who DO like him are supposed to try to convince *you* to like him?

If you have that *issue* with Dean, then by god, vote for someone else. Don't try to convince *me* that I need to perceive exactly as you do.

ALL of the points raised in this thread have been addressed over and over and over. I, for one, do not choose to spend all my time banging my head on the wall. *We* (Dean supporters) do not have a problem if someone wants to vote for someone else. DO IT.

That is not "dismissing" your concerns. Your concerns are addressed on page after page at DU. Likewise, I, for one, will not take on your concerns as my responsibility.

[Very Good Dem]

92. Then why are you commenting on them?

Your concerns are addressed on page after page at DU. Likewise, I, for one, will not take on your concerns as my responsibility.

But, apparently, you DO see it as your responsibility to try to knock them down.

[HFishbine]

58. I have to agree

I get annoyed when some of my questions about other candidates are answered with "That's been asked a hundred times." Maybe so, but until there is a satisfactory answer, the questions remain. No doubt some of these questions are repeated ad nasuem to annoy, but none the less, that doesn't mean the question isn't legitmate. My take:

1) As smart as DUers are, we don't have all the answers. Try submiting legitmate questions to the candidate's campaign.

2) Dean is on his way to answering this fully. He explained well what happened at the draft board and what his intentions were on "Hardball" last week. He still needs a response to the "then went skiing for a year" accusation.

It's all good though. Work these out now and the reich wing will have fewer chances to ambush us next summer.

[Raya]

73. DEAN IS BUSH-LITE OR AT BEST CLINTON-SHORT

I am not so concerned about the draft-dodge. Dodging is good, especially if you are dodging a bullet.

But, Dean's Vermont record just @@##!! like Bush's in Texas.

Both presented themself as "Moderates". BUT:

BOTH PRO-DEATH PENALTY
BOTH SUPPORTED BY AND SUPPORTING THE NRA
BOTH SUPPORTED BY AND SUPPORTING CORPORATE SPECIAL INTEREST
BOTH HAD A PENCHANT FOR SECRECY AND LOCKED UP RECORDS


It is very hard to find the progressive anti-war activist in Howard Dean's record.

Is there something I don't know about (maybe in the secret records)?

[Endangered Specie]

93. Raya you are soo wrong....

Lets take another look at it:

Deans campanig is funded solely by individual small contributions

Dean: Civil Unions Bush: Not even close

I have never heard dean support the NRA, please provide me with the quotes.

Dean is pro death penalty, but in only extremely brutal cases of murder, as opposed to Bush, who would want to fry everyone. He also wants to make sure there is no discrimination in the system of capital punishment.

If you wathced hardball, he explained his locked up records, the vast majority of his records are public (hence every dem opponent digging through it looking for anything to attack), all governers have private records sealed, and what is sealed is not determined by him at all!

"It is very hard to find the progressive anti-war activist in Howard Dean's record."
Heh, you havent listened to ANY of his speeches.

Raya, I think you are quite misinformed... perhaps you should check the records and the facts first!

[Raya]

95. Most of my friends Support Dean or Kucinich. I'm an ex-Deanie.

How can you say that Dean did not support the NRA. He has a
lifetime A rating and they were major supporters in Vermont.

Where are you getting your information from. My friend have there ears plugged to avoid hearing what is coming out on Dean. But, I won't do this.

I watched a long interview with Vermont journalist who, to a person,
said that Dean was dispised by liberals in Vermont.

They all expect him to start uncovering his conservative credentials as soon as he is sure of winning the nomination.

[Andromeda]

110. You're probably very young...

and very wrong. Do some more research and you'll find that Dean has moderate positions on guns and the dealth penalty. He balanced environmental concerns and business interests as a centrist. He didn't try to please everybody (it would have been impossible anyway) but he did try to do the best thing for Vermont.

He is not an anti-war activist or a liberal and he never claimed to be. Some people wanted him to be and were disillusioned when they discovered he wasn't.

Some people are projecting onto Dean what they think he ought to be instead of letting him be who he is.

He governed as a moderate. The extreme left and the extreme right fought him tooth and nail on things THEY wanted but Dean stood firm and in the end he was right on EVERYTHING and some of his staunchest enemies respected him for it. He was re-elected 5 times so he must have done something right.

If you want an extreme lefty candidate you ain't going to find it in Dean. In fact you won't find that in any of the candidates except Dennis Kucinich. If you find that Dennis is more appealing to you then don't vote for Dean---vote for Dennis. It's as simple as that.

[eileen_d]

23. This post is flamebait.

I am not even a Dean supporter, but the gist of the post is "Dean dodged the draft and is a rich guy, therefore don't vote for him" - Dean got a medical deferment, and both JFK and FDR were rich guys and good Democrats. It's just kind of pointless.

[freesqueeze]

34. Never Said That

Only that I'm uncomfortable with the similarities and would rather have a man/woman of the people as the Democratic candidate.

I would never advise anyone to not vote for any particliar democrat, but only to consider all the options.

[eileen_d]

40. OK, I overreacted

I do think that there are far more differences than similarities between Dean and Bush. The characteristics they have in "common" that you point out are rather superficial, and I know that kind of stuff does figure into elections... but as a Democrat it doesn't mean as much to me as the fact that Dean would make a better president than Bush (if Dean is nominated).

[0007]

46. The freepers are having a ball, 'eh?

I'm outa here

[Bread and Circus]

38. Padraig, we are just challenging you, like a practice fighter...

you should be thanking us for when you are strong enough
to take on the Freeps in 2004

:hi:

[Padraig18]

45. Even practice fighters get rest periods.

This has gone on non-stop since Gore endorsed Dean. We've earned a rest break, don't you think? :hi:

[Bake]

52. There will be no rest breaks in the Gen Election campaign either!

I think the questions/concerns are legitimate and fair. Deaniacs question why Clark was fired, or they question his Democratic bona fides. And those are legitimate questions too (of course, I think there are adequate answers to them). You'd better get used to 'em, because once the general campaign starts up, the questions will be UNfair and ILLegitimate.

Bake

[Padraig18]

54. Actually...

... I seldom see Deaniacs questioning Clark about that. I see far more Deaniacs like myself defending Clark against attacks from 'other quarters', shall we say, than joining in those attacks.

[imax2268]

44. seriously...

flame bait...

[polpilot]

63. I know Dean slapped the favorites around a bit this year...but how long

will the whining persist?

Dean '04..

[beaconess]

100. Therein lies the problem

When Dean criticizes other candidates, he's just slapping them around. When other candidates criticize Dean, they're whining.

Hmmmm. And Deaniacs wonder why they're getting on so many people's nerves.

[bearfartinthewoods]

103. bingo

consider the dean camp "outrage" because someone is using his stance on the iraqi war for a political attack ad. dean's whole campaign started out with attacking the other candidates for their stance and those attacks continue here at DU all the time.

it's the enth degree of hypocracy that the dean people are now crying foul because someone is fighting back.

[Andromeda]

111. If you counted the anti-Dean posts

there are many more of those than threads praising him. Dean supporters are just getting weary of all the attacks because that seems to be the main sport around here.

You are not swaying anybody who is a Dean supporter. This kind of post is just more annoying than anything else. Talk about getting on somebody's nerves.

We're not going away so you'd better get used to it.

[drfemoe]

80. clock in

[bearfartinthewoods]

101. i was about to ask you the same thing....

never discuss...just deflect...that's the dean way

[quinnox]

2. Agreed, we need a true liberal

not a phony one like Dean.

[Hawkeye-X]

6. Dean is no liberal..

He's a centrist, just like Bill Clinton was.. and I'm a socialist. I support Dean because I'm a pragmistist.

Hawkeye-X

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Democrats unite]

5. Good piece

Thanks for sharing. But beware Deenies will be flooding very shortly.

[killbotfactory]

14. Those Deanies are such jerks.

I mean, countering negative arguements on a message board? How "cultish".

[directinfection]

30. ever notice

how defensive deanies get? If i layout my reasons for why i dislike dean, i am promptly attacked with full force. Is it because they know hes not all hes cracked up to be?

I think its telling how in vermont, dean was constantly bickering with THE LIBERALS and not the conservatives. If you look at the old dean, and compare the new dean, the differences are striking. Its like he morphed into a brand new person.

or how about his sealing records for 10 years?
how at the time of the iraq war he said he would support a resolution, and now pretends to be the only anti-war canidate.
how he constantly says one thing, and then another...then pretends like he didn't really say it.

this guy is too flipfloppy for me, and unstable as a canidate. I think he would get reamed out by bush preciously for that reason, he is just as dishonest as bush.

If he joins up with wesly clark, i might just have to not vote at all. I personally think it is the wesly clarks of the world that kept us in the vietnam war for too long.

Where is the savior of the democratic party?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

37. You have a right to your opinion

and we have a right to stick up for the candidate that we like. If that seems "defensive" to you, you have my apologies.

[AWD]

72. Amen to that....

"how defensive Deanies get"

But teacher, he hit me back!

[directinfection]

86. yes but

I support kucinich and i don't get all defensive when people attack him as "too far to the left" or "unelectable."

its the whole "how dare you attack dean," mentality that really bugs me.

its not just because he is the "front runner"

i think its because many democrats simply don't like him. Do we really want this much rift?

[Schmendrick54]

53. Yes. Have you ever noticed ...

There are some Deanies who get defensive around here. Perhaps you think I am one of them. I don't know.

I have noticed several threads recently which touch on the theme that Dean is a "draft-dodger" and will have no chance against the Rove attack on this score. Two times I have posted what I think is a logical rebuttal to this claim. In each case, the response is ignored and a new one replaces it. Now you (and others who have posted on this topic) may well feel my analysis is wrong, and I can accept that. But it would be nice if someone tried to explain the weakness of the argument. But when the result is consistently to drop the discussion and start a different thread with the same theme, it is hard not to get impatient and question if the purpose is truly to further the discussion. Perhaps that is why some "Deanies" get defensive.

Just a thought.

Schmendrick

[DemBones DemBones]

57. Haven't seen your analysis but part of mine is post #56 in this

thread. It's not only that the GOP can use this against Howard, it's that it tells ME some disturbing things about Howard. It's one of many things that make me question the wisdom of making this guy the Dem nominee.

Edit: Post #56

[Schmendrick54]

71. Fair enough. Here is what I said elsewhere.

Hi Dembones.

If you have an issue with Howard Dean's remarks (as you stated in reply 56) I can respect that. While Dean has sasid several things on this topic, they do not appear contradictory to me.

One of my previous replies on the draft-dodger theme is here:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=886610#890925>

and another one (which is a discussion of four issues, one of which is the draft dodging question) is here:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=866709#873196>

I also posted something in a thread about the 10 Questions Rove wants to ask Dean, but try as I might I can't seem to get the search tool to find it. (Drat, that was some of my best work! ;-) )

In a nutshell, my point is that harping on this issue just provides leverage for Dean to counterattack with questions about Bush's AWOL status. It will be hard for them to try to focus on this topic and simultaneously claim that his sordid record back then is water under the bridge.

Thanks for asking.
Schemndrick

[Schmendrick54]

75. I found the other one.

The 10 questions reply is here: <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=882809#885240>

I couldn't find it because I looked in the archives and it was still in the current section. Doh!

Regards,
Schmendrick

[TorchTheWitch]

69. huh?

If he joins up with wesly clark, i might just have to not vote at all. I personally think it is the wesly clarks of the world that kept us in the vietnam war for too long.

Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it isn't the military who decides when to go to war, with whom or when to leave. That would be the job of the ball-less administration who gets to sit on their fat asses in safety at home. Sort of like the Iraq war... it's not the military we're pissed off at for not coming home, is it? :eyes:

Kind of ironic that make a connection between Clark and Viet Nam but leave out the part where he took four bullets soon after he got there. Call me crazy, but seems to me that the one who has a true understanding of the dangers of war and the importance of getting the troops out as fast as possible would be the one who's personally experienced being shot up in war.

Where is the savior of the democratic party?

Jesus Christ isn't running, but we do have a field of excellent candidates to choose from.

[directinfection]

87. dammit

we could really use the late J.C. in this one.

fair enough on clark...but im just not confortable listening to him explain everything in military terms. I feel like a war would just be a fun game for him, one that we must NOT lose.

[CMT]

8. I wonder how not serving in Vietnam got to be such a huge

problem on DU? Dean got a deferment fair and square. Is Vietnam really going to be that big an issue? we elected Clinton who had more problems with his Vietnam history than Dean.

[Wetzelbill]

17. that to me is not that big of an issue, unless you're a blatant

coward like Bush, Cheney or say Tom Delay. Dean got a deferment fair and square, just like you said. It's not that big of a deal, in this case.

[no name no slogan]

24. Serving is not the problem, nor is opposing. It's AVOIDING service...

If a candidate was REALLY opposed to the war and didn't want to serve, why did not he register himself as a conscientious objector? Why didn't he participate in anti-war activities?

Personally, I'd have more respect for somebody who didn't agree with the war and actively worked against the war/registered as a CO than one who used his connections to call in some favors and got out of serving, whether he was against the war or not.

Using one's social status/position to avoid serving (whether one agrees or not with the war) is not only elitist, it's just plain wrong, IMHO.

And THAT is the problem.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

31. Uhhh...

"Using one's social status/position to avoid serving (whether one agrees or not with the war) is not only elitist, it's just plain wrong, IMHO."

You're right. Dean should never have used his social status to get himself a back ailment.

[no name no slogan]

55. Um, not quite.

He didn't wait to get called by the draft board-- he made a SPECIAL appointment with them, to show him his x-rays from a "family friend" who was not his regular physician. I doubt many poor young men were able to go to their family friend to get x-rays that would keep them out of the draft.

And if he was so opposed to the war, what was he doing to stop it? Was he writing his congressman? Participating in protests? Writing letters to the editor?

Oh that's right. He was hitting the slopes of Vail, "skiing for peace", to show his disapproval of what his country was doing.

Just more proof Dean is no leader, he a follower, and one who will go wherever the wind blows him.

[He loved Big Brother]

88. deleted

n/t

[Padraig18]

32. Dean didn't do that.

So there goes your objection to him on this issue.

[Pastiche423]

27. Psst...

It wasn't six months ago, even though DUers already knew about his medical deferment.

[DemBones DemBones]

56. Psst, yourself. It WAS a problem six months ago to many of us,

and still is. Dean used to tell a story of the Army doctor determining that he was unfit to serve, stating that he was ready to serve but the Army turned him down. He said (and I paraphrase, but closely) "It wasn't my decision, it was the Army's decision.

Then he had to admit that he DID help that determination greatly by showing up for his physical with X-rays and a letter from an orthopedist, statig he had a disqualifying unfused vertebra.

Somewhere along the line he admitted that he probably COULD have served if he'd WANTED to.

And he admitted that he'd checked out what was IN his old draft file, to make sure there'd be no SURPRISES during this campaign. (What did he think might be in there?)

Finally, Chris Matthews got Dean to admit that he didn't want to serve, that he DIDN'T WANT to go to Viet Nam. . .


Why couldn't he have been honest all along? Can he be trusted to be honest on other things?

[Pastiche423]

74. The-point-of-my-post

was that Dean not serving was NOT a problem w/DUers six months ago.

Go back to the threads then, and show me ONE that stated it was.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freesqueeze]

47. It's An Old Marketing Concept Called Differentation

To get people to buy your product instead of the same one they've been using for years you must show the differences (and hopefully advantages) in your product.

I see some queasy similarities in these two products.

And yes, ABB for me too.

[Wetzelbill]

10. no doubt, but Dean is not Bush

Dean is basically a good man and a strong candidate. Not as liberal as he initially made himself out to be, for sure, and I won't vote for him in the primaries, yet he does interest me. No problem here if Dean was our next president. I just think we can do a little better.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

11. I object

to threads like this one about our candidates. Their choice of sex partners is their own business.

(Rimshot)

[HuckleB]

13. Two things.

One: I tried to join the Air Force out of high school. However, I did not pass the physical due to a condition similar to that noted by Dean. At the same time, I played soccer and baseball my senior year in high school. I went skiing, hiking, biking, and I played hoops at the park. I was active, and I remain active to this day, despite chronic back pain. I am going skiing this Sunday, though I could never get into the military with my back.

Two: Dean may not have had to worry about money, but it's very difficult to compare his education to Bush's. The man went to medical school, got through residency, and still was able to become well-rounded enough to participate in Vermont politics quite successfully on his own merits. If you think Bush could have followed down that same path, I've got some great waterfront property for you in eastern Oregon.

[Wetzelbill]

20. yeah, me too

ACL injury in my knee and a shoulder problem kept me out of the military when I was 20. I still work out and everything, competed overseas as a wrestler, rode bull, and lift weights to this day. I couldn't get into the military now if I wanted to, but I would have no problem hitting the gym several days a week. (I'm lazy, haha) Go figure.

[TahitiNut]

35. Yes, and I served in Vietnam despite congenital scoliosis ...

... of the lower spine that made me a good swimmer but lousy skier and runner, no matter how hard I tried. (I walk splay-footed and have a great breaststroke kick.) It has also led to chronic sciatica. The difference? Us kids in single-parent/blue-collar families usually didn't have the kind of medical consultation available to the more affluent. There were, of course, many exceptions.

Economic inequities and corresponding (generational) disadvantages in medical care are not new ... and they're not limited to mere health. It seriously impacts education, military service, job availability, and a host of other components of "the pursuit of happiness."

[HuckleB]

39. You may have a point.

However, I know my case, where they didn't let me in when I tried to volunteer, and I've read about Dean's case, and the comparisons are eerie. Oh, and I know a bit about health care. When I talk about comparisons, I know wherefrom I speak.

[Cocoa]

18. bad comparison

Dean isn't anything like Bush, get your head checked. Take a look at Bush for a second. There you go, see what I mean?

[bloom]

21. Dean reminds me more of Will Pitt -

Only different. :)

Personality wise, though, I see similarities.

(And politically, he is more like Pitt, also.)

[creativelcro]

65. This is such an obvious flame thread...

I thought Mods would take care of this BS....

[comradebillyboy]

22. as a vietnam era veteran i can tell you

that damn few people thought viet-nam war was a good idea by the time dean did his physical. not too many folks wanted to be drafted to fight in an immoral and unpopular war. my deferment ran out and i got drafted. too bad for me. i saw a fair number of folks in basic training wash out because they were not physically or mentally up to the demands.

recreational activities such as skiing, jogging and such really are not as demanding as humping a pack 20 miles on a search and destroy mission. you dont want to be with a guy who's body gives out in the crunch. should he have donned a hair shirt and flogged himself in penance for having a bad back?

remember lots of nfl players would likely flunk a military physical for conditions like bad knees, neck or back injuries. but no one's life is at stake in a football game.

[bpilgrim]

25. fight fire with fire

it works... besides CLINTON demonstrated you can WIN and not haved served in vietnam, even have been against it.

besides it is a perfect trap for rove for when he brings it up and you know he wont be able to resist as you shrewedly deduced and then dean responds with shurb being a DESERTER in a time of WAR.

would love to see them debate THAT on faux :->

dean is a fighter... just what history ordered :hi:

peace

[DemBones DemBones]

62. And when Dean accuses Bush of being AWOL, he will be

pilloried as a nutcase conspiracy theorist because Americans "know" that Bush served an honorable tour of duty as a fighter pilot -- some even believe he served in Viet Nam! If the AWOL report could be proven to a majority of Americans, it would hurt Bush. Somehow, I don't see that report coming to "Nightline" or "Wolf Blitzer Reports" too soon, though, do you?

As for Clinton, he actually was at risk of being drafted when his student deferments ended but then the first lottery was held and he lucked out. Dean asked for a physical while still safely enrolled at Yale so he was never at risk of being drafted, going from 2-S to 1-Y deferments.

Also, Clinton was elected pre-9/11 and the "war on terra," Afghanistan, Iraq. There will be voters to whom all those events make military experience/ national security experience a real concern.

[demgrrrl2004]

26. Support Clark!

Nothing could be more true: The Democrats must support a candidate who served in Vietnam AND who comes from a middle-class background. That candidate is Wesley Clark. I like Dean, but I know that he won't win the support of independents and moderates. Clark's successful military career and foreign policy experience make him the most qualified voice to speak on national security and military policy. Dean's draft dodging and lack of any foreign policy experience hurt him greatly when matched against George W. Bush. Yes, people are angry at Bush, but they also want someone they can trust to protect the nation. That person will be Wes Clark. There's a reason the Republican party wants Dean to win the nomination: because George W. will easily beat him. Clark is feared by the Republican party. It's time this party got smart and started backing winners. I encourage you all to go to www.Clark04.com and find out more about Clark.

[HuckleB]

29. Welcome to DU.

Do you work for the Clark campaign, by any chance?

[Pastiche423]

36. Protect the nation against what?

[DemBones DemBones]

64. Welcome to DU!

And the candidate wars! :hi:

[demigoddess]

28. When will we all get along and realize that the real problem

is bush and not exactly how someone got a deferment long, long, ago. Dean did not swear to serve in uniform and then go awol. And trying to get out of vietnam legitimately is not a sin. Dean was not for the war and said so BEFORE the war. It is not a crime that now he says we should exit carefully, that is only what is the best way to clean up the iraq mess, just as paying down the debt built up by the republicans slowly is the best way to clean up the mess bush will leave after he is gone. Get someone who can do that and I will vote for him. All the Iraq arguing is only giving the republicans ammunition.

[bowens43]

41. Facts are important to a valid argument.

Do some research on Deans deferment.

[cally]

42. It's one of my major concerns with Dean

I was hoping Dems could use the Chimp's baggage of going AWOL and his fake working class roots against him in the election. I don't see how Dems can use it if Dean is the candidate. I'm not saying Dean did anything wrong by bringing his X-rays or coming from money, it just takes away two very effective campaign issues IMHO.

[eileen_d]

49. I think that is a fair criticism

Not complaining that Dean's background is what it is... just wishing for more ammo to use against Bush.

[freesqueeze]

51. Agreed, But Surly You Will

Support Dean if he is the candidate. I just feel that his nomination will take a couple of bullets from the Democrat's pistol.

[drfemoe]

84. UMMMM.

*u*hster beat John McCain (A WAR F*CKING VETERAN) for the republican nod.

If repukes don't decide on that NON-factor.. why do you think DEMOCRATS should / will ??

[cally]

102. * said he served in the National Guard

and the press squelched the AWOL stuff. I am not choosing who I support for President on this basis, but I do think Dean will not be able to bring up working class appeal and AWOL.

[mitchum]

48. Not true. He has too much Rockefeller in him...

since he is a Rockefeller Republican

[quaker bill]

59. Suffering from hyperfocus?

Vietnam was 30 years ago. Personally I don't care and believe few others do. Dean has lived a productive life contributing to his community in many ways that vastly exceed any contribution to our democracy he might have made in Vietnam. If for no other reason than the fact the the Vietnam war contributed nothing to our democracy or our freedoms. This is why people opposed it and why we ended it.

If this is a none too subtle argument for Clark, his resume stands on it's own merits.

Discrediting Dean by classist prejudice is not flattering to your candidate or your personal image. Further it is simply unnecessary.

[ryharrin]

67. As a skier (and a Deanie, just to be honest) , I have to say that

skiing isn't that physically demanding, unless you fall. Most of the time you're just kinda standing there leaning from side to side on bended knee. You spend most of your time on the lift. I'd say its a bit different from marching day in day out in a vietnamese jungle with tons of gear on your back.
Also, what's wrong with getting around an unjust war with any means possible? As a 21 year old, I'll be doing anything I possibly can do to avoid any upcoming draft. That includes any medical condition I can come up with, however minor.

[ozone_man]

82. Really, skiing out West in all that powder is easy

on the back. You don't want to ski in the East on that icy boiler plate though, with a bad back. Wipe out and you might be a pile of bones at the bottom. I like x-country though. It's so much more aerobic and nice and easy on the back.

Let's hope Bush or other MIC candidate doesn't get in and start up the draft, for your sake.

[Octafish]

115. Excellent point! Skiing isn't hard on the back, it's the moguls.

And Dean, from what I've read, was the Master of the Moguls. I can't wait to see hear him explain how his back miraculously healed after the x-ray and note from his doctor said otherwise.

BTW: I, too, dig X-C. I was the second person on my block to buy Åsnes, way back when you could get boots, poles and skis for $100 at Raupp Campfitters. Now, you've got to be as rich as the typical draft-dodging yuppie downhiller or be connected to someone on Wall Street to afford equipment.

[Cassandra]

70. Was there a ski patrol unit in Vietnam...

that I didn't know about? The problem with his back was something the army gives you a deferment for. Would you have preferred that he had kept silent about it and risk being crippled in basic training, or having his back go out in combat? Just because you can ski with that kind of back condition, doesn't mean he pulled a fast one on the army.

[Zomby Woof]

76. Bush has too much Busch in him

[Cassandra]

104. Bush has too much putsch in him

:evilgrin:

[Zomby Woof]

113. hehe

Good one! :D

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

78. The only one who has had too much Bush* in her

is Laura.

Hence the twins...

[drfemoe]

81. then you hear ..

[dsc]

89. Did you vote for Nixon

or Hoover? How about Reagan? All of them were significantly poorer than their opponents.

[He loved Big Brother]

91. Maybe he just had zero interest in fighting in an unjust war.

Can't say I blame him.

I believe compulsory military service is slavery, not freedom, and that in itelf is a good enough reason to try to avoid participating in any American military draft.

Draft-dodgers didn't want to serve in the military. They do not have to explain why, whether the war is or a just cause or not.

Privileged or not, your life choices belong to you, and the government has no business mandating (forcing) any citizen to put their life on the line for any reason.

So Dean would rather ski than go bomb villages of civilians? That is fine with me. As an American citizen, one should always be free to make the choice of skiing over killing.

I am sure people other than just the wealthy found ways to "dodge" the draft. Resourceful people exist in every societal class. I am not rich, but I guarantee I would have found a way out of serving. I am a generally honest person, but I will lie to my government if that's what it takes to maintain my status of "free American", and not a prisoner of the government's unjust wrongdoings...one of the wrongdoings in question being not just the war itself, but the fact that the government passed a draft on it's citizens, violating Americans of their freedom to choose not to kill. THAT is the sort of thing that causes decent people to make a decision to lie, though I am sure they'd prefer a wider range of options in order to avoid participating in killing or being killed.

This in no way means I do not hold highest respect for the unfortunate soldiers who did fight, as well as those who chose to go voluntarily. However, I have an even higher respect for the freedom guaranteed to me as an American citizen, and as I stated before, I believe compulsory military service is slavery.

[Endangered Specie]

94. Let me put in my two cents...

(First ask yourself what you would have done to get out of the draft?)

Dean got deferred because of back problems- fact
Dean went skiing after getting deferred (keeping in mind, he would have been called up in a national emergency)- fact
Seems odd, I know, but the physical stamina required to ski is far much more relaxed than is the stamina they want in the armed forces. Skiiing is not as 'hard' on the back as it seems (unless you are doing fancy stuff, but I doubt he was doing anything more than some basic down the hill stuff).

I, for one, have a curious second bone in my foot. That prevents me from running hard on hard surfaces safely. That in itself would disqualify me for the army (that and I dont take orders very well). However, there is no reason why I can't go skiing because of it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrFunkenstein]

97. The Rich Aren't Like Us

<>

[jsw_81]

99. Dean is NOT Bush

First of all, I could care less about what Dean might have done to avoid being killed or wounded in that horrible, stupid war over thirty years ago. Many of us would have done the exact same thing.

As for Dean being from a rich family, so what? He gave up an extremely lucrative career on Wall Street, went to night school, then moved to rural Vermont to become a family doctor. I think that's pretty damn impressive, don't you?

[Fahrenheit911]

105. I agree, and disagree

he is completely opposite to Bush.. but he does not have the charisma of Bill Clinton or Al Sharpton, which I believe a president should have..

he is very good on the issues though..
you should check out http://www.ontheissues.org/Howard_Dean.htm

[Raya]

106. If Dean gets the nomination NADER WILL RUN

Word is that Kucinich and mentor Nader hate Dean as a Phony.

[mzmolly]

109. I guess the question here is ...

who gives a shit?

[quinnox]

107. Dean = Bush-lite

Time for a liberal democrat, not more Bush-lite.

[WillyT]

112. Poop !!!

:hurts:

[Myra]

114. I'm also concerned about his flip responses to questions about it.

I got a medical deferment. If that makes me a draft dodger so be it.
I think the media is letting him off the hook on it now, so it can
hook him later.

I know Bush was AWOL from the National Guard.
But if the media didn't slam him for it in 2000, they can't
very well do it now. We already know they have a rule for CheneyBush, and a rule for non-Carlyle members.

Frankly, why doesn't Dean say he was against the Vietnam war, period?
That would be an honorable stance, just as honorable people chose to
serve in Vietnam.