If Dean wanted voters with playboy logos on trucks, what would u say?

[catherineD]

I still don't think most people really get how offensive Dean's interest in bringing voters in who wave the confederate flag was. Forget analyzing this with the pcness of being a liberal Democrat for a moment and imagine you're a black person living in the south.

Why would you want to join a guy who wants to bring on board voters with confederate flags on their trucks? These have got to be the most conservative and racist voters in America and he wants them voting for him? If he were able to put together a coalition that included them, do you think Dean would dare be "pro" black issues? He'd be pandering to the guys in his coalition.

I'd be casting around for a third party to vote for if Dean won the general election and made an appeal to the guys who drive around with playboy logos on their trucks and cars. Why not bring in the members of the KKK and the country clubs that don't allow Blacks, Jews or women? Let's see how many Halliburton executives we can bring onboard -- I'm sure we can pander to them just as well as the Republicans if we really put our hearts into it.

I'm sorry, but it's no good saying that Dean just meant that poor whites should see that their interests are with the Democratic party. Heck, that's condescending, as well. Sure, they have some economic interests in common with us, but their ideological interests -- their ideas -- are diametrically opposed. Are we asking them to put aside their beliefs and vote with their pocketbook? Or are we willing to open ourselves up to their beliefs to form a coalition? Neither of these alternatives is acceptable.

Leave these kinds of people to the Republican party and ask yourself whether this is the guy you think can really make it to the White House and effect the kind of change Democrats want.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Hate the sin (i.e. waving a Confederate flag), love the sinner.

Buckle your seatbelt, this is a class war.

[AP]

10. Then Dean shouldn't have said he wanted to be the candidate "for" sinning.

He should have said that he wanted to help the sinners see virtue.

[ryharrin]

25. He didn't say he was the candidate for "sinning" he said

he was the candidate for "sinners." In other words, everybody.

[kaybea]

32. Everybody, good, big tent...

<channeling voice of small woman in movie "Poltergeist"> ...All are welcome, all are welcome. Come into the light. <end channeling>

Any strategy that brings in voters without alienating more than that number is a good thing. Has Dean achieved that? Dunno.

He alienated me. But I am only one and would never talk shit against him IRL. So in the primary (as if it mattered for this Pennsylvanian) he lost me and might have gained a thousand Virginians in my place. That is a good thing.

It's a numbers game. But if the game goes long, as long as May, he doesn't have my primary vote.

[deminflorida]

2. I'd say go Howard!...wo hooo.....

We need the people with Play Girl labels too....and the Swingers....

That's why I joined the Party...It's a party baby....

Lot more interesting than hanging out with a bunch of boring Republicans.....

[Mountainman]

3. I think Dean was saying something many of us say here.

We ask why do working class freepers support Bush when he is anti-working class.

I think Dean was saying something similar. Guys who drive around in pickup trucks with confederate flags are typically working class guys and Dean's economic policies would be good for them.

The confederate flag thing was just part of the description of the guys not that Dean supports racists. It was a poor choice of words I would say and nothing more.

[Caution]

4. I hate the damned confederate flag

But frankly you are wrong to say "These have got to be the most conservative and racist voters in America"

I know a couple of people who have these things on their trucks and they are neither racist or conservative. They are just stupid about the damned thing. They honestly believe it has to do with "Southern Pride" and "Heritage" and they won't hear arguments to the contrary. My take on Dean was that he was trying to say that he was reaching out to those who would vote Republican because they were born to it and aren't really aware of what their party stands for these days any more than they are aware of what the confederate flag stands for.

As for the Playboy bunny, well let's just say that here in Massachusetts I see a lot more Playboy bunny's on the t-shirts of 20-something year old women than I do on a guy's car or truck.

[ldoolin]

28. When I was growing up

...in the south, waving the Confederate flag usually had more to do with being a fan of the Dukes of Hazzard than with anything else. I'm aware that some people see it as an offensive reminder of slavery and Dean probably made a poor choice of words, but I find it far more offensive that anyone would suggest that having a Confederate flag sticker means one is expressing racist views. That's especially not true in the south, although in some other parts of the country (e.g. the Pacific Northwest) it probably is true.

I do strongly agree that it should be taken off the state flags in the south, but that's a different issue.

I find even less reason to take offense at the idea of people with Playboy stickers voting Democratic than I do the Confederate flag stickers. Heck, Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt et al already *are* Democrats.

[Armstead]

5. I think it was ill spoken but appropriate

If Dean had simply said "southern white guys in pick-up trucks" would that be different?

IMO we do need to find the common ground on economic issues. That does not mean we have to give up on otehr goals, like civil rights, to do it. There are also a lot of people in that "demographic" who are not racist, and see the flag as a sybol of rtegional pride.
If someone is a racist who refuses to get beyond their racism and join the 21st Century, then they won't come over anyway.

[freestyle]

6. Don't have to imagine

I,m Black and live in MD, not deep south, but still below the line. Dean was making the point that lots of southern whites have been brainwashed by republicans on race and don't even think about their class interests. The Poor People's Movement Dr. King was organizing when he was assasinated was about the same thing, bridging race and focusing on class. We are in a class war, and the very wealthy are kicking ass. Dean was talking about changing that. If Democrats continue to get scared about class warfare, then we really are republican lite. Dean could have chosen better words, but I still support him because from the beginning he has been clear that Bush is the enemy.

[AP]

11. You know that Dean didn't invent this strategy though, right?

This is how Dems have been trying to appeal to voters in the south for 30 years. Dean seems to be a little tone deaf when it comes to this issue.

[ShimokitaJer]

7. So we should reject their votes?

Maybe if Dean gets elected, he should work to increase employment for everyone but them while he's at it. After all, with confederate flags in their trucks, obviously the only thing they care about is seceding from the union in order to create a new slaveowning country.

Personally I don't think anyone, even the front runner, has the luxury of turning down votes the GOP thought they had locked up. Dean may have said it poorly, but at least he gets the fact that Bush has screwed over his most fervent supporters and they just might be ready to look to someone else to fix things.

[DrWeird]

8. Do you know what I find offensive?

People deliberately taking quotes out of context and continuing to misconstrue it for the sake of smearing a candidate.

[catherineD]

9. Read the whole post before you smear me.

I referred to his making an appeal to poor southern whites. It just didn't wash with me. Or can't I still be deeply disturbed by this? Must it be some sign of my lack of patriotism to the Democratic party? Now I see what they mean about Deaniacs.

[realFedUp]

12. I wouldn't generalize about anyone in here

We are all individuals, supporting a candidate
or at least thinking about which one to support. It's not
a wise idea to be a newbie and make a generalization
about any candidate's supporters.

We've discussed this at length when it happened
and if you a search, you will find the thread links.
It's been much debated.

[Logansquare]

13. I'm an informed, intelligent person, and I support Howard Dean

And you're not winning hearts anf minds by smearing me or any other Dean supporter. One thing I would appreciate though: tell us why you're here and who sent you.

[reknewcomer]

19. Intellient people don't convict someone of "being sent" without proof

Paranoid people do that.

[ldoolin]

22. What I found offensive

was where you said in your original post that all poor southern whites have ideological interests opposite those of the Democratic party.

Now that's stereotyping.

[reknewcomer]

18. Even worse...

Accusing someone of smearing when there is no proof of it.

[BackDoorMan]

14. Who in the fuck decides who should be in the democratic party...

Who going to be the fucking policemen? I nominate Ashcroft.

I don't give a shit if the guy is a redneck to the bone or someone who just wants to smoke dope and fuck for a living...if they decided they've had enough of Bush and the fascist and want to vote democratic so what...

What small little rightous box to we democrats want to put us in in? Some bullshit Hollywood box of aren't we just so fucking special?

That's not the democratic party or what it should stand for!

[Devlzown]

23. Thank you!

[reknewcomer]

15. Playboy and the exploitation of women as sex objects

I hope Dean would not stoop that low.

[maxanne]

16. more of the same

pointless speculative candidate bashing.

[frustrated_lefty]

17. catherineD

I am doubtful of your sincerity, given the way your post count has shot up in one day. It is clear you don't like Dean. Ok, you have your vote to cast.

I have the impression Dean appeals to a wide base. If you disagree, take it up with Jesse Jackson Jr.

[Mattforclark]

20. I would say that I wanted those voters too n/t

[WindRavenX]

21. The more voters vote Demo, the better

I give kudos to Dean for trying to appeal to the South, but I regret he did it in a rather...crass way.
We must appeal to everyone. Even the playboy logo guys :)

[Woodstock]

24. all he meant was he wanted to bring in the white working class voters

I go by intention, and don't indulge in "gotchas."

His intentions are good, so why read things into his remark that were never there. He's not racist. And he's certainly not sexist, so I won't even entertain the Playboy remark with an answer.

[supernova]

26. You have more of an issue

with poor white southerners dirting up your (percieved) Dem party than you do with Howard Dean, it appears to me. I hope I'm wrong about that.

What is needed is some education. The other posters in this thread are correct with they point out that the white southern underclass vote Repub b/c the GOP has brainwashed them (and used racebaiting to do it).

We Dems need to address this appalling misuse of both blacks and whites here in the South. Howard Dean was trying to do that in his own "foot in mouth" way.

BTW, I have much bigger fish to fry that to worry about whether or not the guy in the lane next to me has Playboy mudflaps on his rig. :eyes:

[ryharrin]

27. I would say

"I'm not sure how big a demographic that is, but every vote counts"

[mzmolly]

29. Welcome...

That's what I'd say... oh and welcome to you too :hi:

[brook]

30. I'd say "Right on, Dr.!"

It never crossed my mind that Howard Dean meant any thing other than to say he wanted everyone who had been disenfranchised by Bush to consider voting for a candidate who wanted to represent them. Yes, judging by the outcry, it was a poor choice of words - but it was a call to those working people to elect someone who understands the meaning of the phrase "Government of the people, by the people".

I want Dean to continue to reach out to all Americans. In fact, I expect inclusion to be an ongoing policy of any Democratic Administration.

[LoZoccolo]

31. Lets do the time-warp again.

This subject was covered extensively some weeks ago. See if you can go back and get some background before rehashing it.

[quaker bill]

33. Curious, misinformed, and biased understanding of the comment

They apparently create spin with this result in mind. If you listen to the words in context this meaning cannot be drawn from them.