Stop with the Southern stuff.

[madfloridian]

We think, we feel, we have brains. Do you want to hear a story?

Here you go. Our status-quo Democrats here are scared to death....not because Dean is unelectable, but because he is very popular in Florida.

Do not insult me as a Southerner by telling me and others who "us Southern folk" would favor. It is condescending and insulting.

And if I were African-American, I would be insulted at some of the comments here about who others think they think is electable. They will make their own decisions, just as the rest of the south will.

Stop playing the military card with Clark. That is really being unreal. The best thing anyone could do here is to stop being ugly toward Dean and Gore and boost up your own candidate without tearing ours down.

Gore does not deserve the treatment he is getting here because of petty jealousy or whatever.

[armadafalls]

1. Complete Agreement

I agree with madfloridian when he says "The best thing anyone could do here is to stop being ugly toward Dean and Gore and boost up your own candidate without tearing ours down." We need to boost these great Democrats up not tear down our own fellow party members. After all Zell Miller won't get all of that free publicity if all Democrats attack their own party.

[Fovea]

2. I concurr

and I support Kucinich.

Let us be proper and real about this most important process in our history since Civil War I or we will end up fighting Civil War II.

[armadafalls]

3. Fellow Kucinich supporter

But again all nine of these Dems are high quality candidates. They all have their good points. Any of them are electable, especially as Bush's problems start to come to the public eye.

[Scott Lee]

4. Allow me to kick

::kick::

[xray s]

5. I agree with everything you say except one thing

Bush/Rove is going to do everything they can to make this election about The War On Terror. They will do everything in their power to scare the living hell out the public that the Democratic nominee will not protect them against the terrorist. And you can bet the media will go along with them, because War Sells. It is the ultimate "if it bleeds, it leads" story.

In this card game, Clark's background would trump their scare tactics. It would also highlight and contrast their utter complete incompetence in foreign affairs.

Why would we not want to play this card????

[madfloridian]

7. I don't think it makes as much difference as you think.

I really don't. You would be surprised how many people are sad and tired and worn out by war.

I think Clark would be a good leader, who would not precipitate war...but it is too much to keep pushing it. He must have other capabilities.....tell us about them as well.

[xray s]

9. No doubt Clark has to expound on his domestic programs as well

Believe me. If Dean win the nomination I am with him 100%. Same for any of the others. If it is Dean I hope he brings on some top notch advisors and maybe a VP candidate that strengthens his hand against the attacks by Rove that are sure to follow. He seems like a smart fellow and I am sure he knows this.

I do believe Clark brings some strategic cards to the table as far as the electoral college map. I think he could make some real inroads with the military vote. That could swing some states like VA, LA, SC and FL.

I am just trying to work out who is the best candidate to beat Bush. IMO, Clark's background is a big plus in the area of foreign affairs and the military. Lets keep that card in our hand.

Thanks :hi:

[janx]

11. I'll tell you why: Because it plays into their culture of FEAR,

friend.

I respect Clark and like him a heck of a lot. But from the beginning, I've been weary of the fact that his supporters play into the Bush* military/fear culture by insisting that only a general is acceptable.

It's a bit like a slap in the face on top of the arrogance that Chimpy has already bestowed on the American people.

I suspect that I am not alone when I say that I have had the military crammed down my throat since just after 9/11. It got so bad that I wondered whether or not we were headed for a fascist state.

Now I have military ancestors and family going back since before this country WAS a country, and my father was an army surgeon in Vienna during the clean-up after WWII. I respect the military more than I can say.

But I recoil from this idea that only a military figure can head our country. The military has been used and abused enough, and I resent that implication, and I suspect others here do too.

[xray s]

15. I don't think only a military figure can head our country

I would resent that implication too.

On the other hand, I do not think that a military figure automatically should be excluded from being able to lead our country either.

[October]

20. When has a military figure ever been excluded from consideration?

If anything the reverse is true. Heaven help the candidate that didn't serve. Military service is as close to being a "weeding tool" as I've seen.

[janx]

23. But that's not what I said, is it?

Please read my post again.

[October]

25. Quote

"...I do not think that a military figure automatically should be excluded from being able to lead our country either."

Of course they shouldn't be automatically excluded, and my point was that they never are. The liklihood of military service ever being a detriment to a candidate's potential is slim to none.

On the other hand, being a woman, northerner, or a minority will pretty much exclude you these days.

IMHO, of course.

[janx]

29. It's not that I think a general should not be president. IKE was

one of the greatest presidents this country ever had. But I don't want to be pressured into voting for a general only because he is a general in a time when a quasi-fascist government is shoving the military down our throats.

Understand?

[janx]

22. But since that is the most common reason I hear from

Clark's supporters, it doesn't make any difference.

That's almost all I hear. Otherwise, I assure you that I wouldn't have mentioned it.

[madfloridian]

19. What's more, you are advocating letting them set the rules.

That is why I like Dean. He's keeps setting the rules.

I really liked it when he told Judy Woodruff off about the religion deal. He said the ones who trumpeted their religion were like the Pharisees. Look it up. He called them hypocrites right on CNN.

He is every bit the fighter.

Do not keep letting them be in charge of the rules.

[janx]

24. WHEN? I've called them that myself before! When did he

do this? Was it recently?


HAHAHAHA!

[madfloridian]

30. Monday?...I am looking for the transcript. Pharisees....hypocrites..great!

It was right about 3:30, or just after. She kept up her sanctimonious piety, and he let it rip that he had his religion. He as much as called the ones in the WH the Pharisees. She did not like it, but she hushed up on religion.

I taped it, and I will see if I can transcribe from it. I think it was Monday, now that I think about it....it was right after that interview that it was announced Gore would endorse.

See if you can find the transcript. It was great. Powerful. Darn those hypocritical Pharisees.

[janx]

31. I found it!

WOODRUFF: At the same time, Governor, I'm sure you know the Republicans are already starting to talk about the fact that you -- I think by your own acknowledgment, left the Episcopal Church in some dispute over a bike path, and you switched to another denomination, the Congregationalist denomination.

They're asking what does this say about the depth of your commitment to your own faith?


DEAN: You know what it really says? It says the Republicans are talking like they're out of the Pharisees. Because if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. I don't believe it ought to matter what kind of a denomination you are.

As a matter of fact, if you're a religious person, you're a religious person. I don't think it ought to matter what religion you are.

So people who talk like that are what Jesus would call the Pharisees. And I think that's enough of that kind of stuff in the Republican Party. We are all in this together, whether you are a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu. And there's plenty of all to go around in this country.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/08/ip.00.html

[madfloridian]

34. Ha Ha, I just posted it in GD just now.

I loved that so much!

[janx]

36. Look at this--from later in the program. (I must have missed it.)

DEAN: I respect General Clark enormously. And I think he's had a military career which is certainly commendable. But I don't think this election is about what the selective service decided to do with my bad back. They made the choice, I had the physical and they turned me down. And I had no say one way or the other in that.

WOODRUFF: Not to beat a dead horse, because I know you were...

(CROSSTALK)

WOODRUFF: ... in that interview on Fox, but just to be clear in when you went to the draft board, did they make the decision based on your medical records or on their own separate medical assessment?

DEAN: I have no way of knowing that. We asked for our the draft files a long time ago, anticipating interest in questions like this from interested parties. And all we know - all I know is I went down there, I had my draft physical along with about 250 other guys of all sizes and colors, and I went through the physical and about three, four, five weeks later I got a letter saying I was deferred except in case of a national emergency.

WOODRUFF: And you don't know -- the fact that you were able to bring in your own private medical doctor's assessment...

DEAN: Everybody brings in their own records. If you have a record you bring it in. And I don't -- you know, I was not privy to the decisions so I have no idea how they made the decision.

WOODRUFF: Let me quickly quote a comment from the man who was the director of selective service in 1970, Curtis Tar (ph). He said, quote, "It's one of the real inequities left in the system because young men from wealthier family," which you were, "could afford to pay for test that might uncover some deferrable medical condition." And other people couldn't.

DEAN: Yes, of course, that has no application to my situation whatsoever. I had an injury four years earlier which is how I knew I had a bad back in the first place. I had a bad back and couldn't run track, that's how the pain developed.

And I had went to the doctor like most people would, whether they're wealthy or whether they're middle class or even poor folks can see a doctor if they need to, if they have a serious problem unless they have no insurance, which I intend to fix if I become president of the United States.

WOODRUFF: Do you feel any guilt at all today, Governor, about not having served when so many others went?

DEAN: No. I took my physical. I told the truth, they chose not to take me. That's what happened.

WOODRUFF: So the fact that there were other young men who didn't have the ability to get good medical care and get medical tests doesn't -- there's not an inequity there that bothers you... DEAN: Judy, I was a high school junior, senior, I had a back pain, I went to the doctor, the doctor told me had I had a congenital problem in my back. Four years later I went to the draft physical, they told me I couldn't serve. I don't know what else I can tell you.

WOODRUFF: But we know today there were people who went to Vietnam who had back pain.

DEAN: So your argument is that I could have lied to the draft board and gotten in.

WOODRUFF: No, I'm -- no. That's not what I'm -- I'm just asking if you have any twinge of any feeling about it.

DEAN: I have a lot of twinge about the terrible policy that sent our young people to Vietnam for an exercise that turned out not to be justified, as we're doing right now in Iraq. Yes, I have twinges about that.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/08/ip.00.html

He couldn't resist TWINGE. I couldn't have either!

[madfloridian]

37. It was a great answer.

SNIP..."WOODRUFF: But we know today there were people who went to Vietnam who had back pain.

DEAN: So your argument is that I could have lied to the draft board and gotten in.

WOODRUFF: No, I'm -- no. That's not what I'm -- I'm just asking if you have any twinge of any feeling about it.

DEAN: I have a lot of twinge about the terrible policy that sent our young people to Vietnam for an exercise that turned out not to be justified, as we're doing right now in Iraq. Yes, I have twinges about that.

And do you know what the Crosstalk was where it says that in the transcript!? Huh, do you.

She said she did not want to beat a dead horse.....he told her she WAS beating a dead horse. :silly:

[LatinManNH]

6. In his own clumsy way

This is the very issue that Dean tried to address with the CF comment. We need to overcome our regional biases and pull together to pursue our common interests.

[newyawker99]

38. Hi LatinManNH!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[INTELBYTES]

8. I know watcha mean...

that makes me madder than a three legged dog trying to take a piss on a tree! Well hell, me and my ol' lady the other day was just discussus this exact thang when a big ol' possum jumped up on the porch and almost knocked over my pabst blue ribbon. I reckon you northern be thinking your better 'an us. Well, you can just kiss my grits!!

:silly:

[mzmolly]

10. heh heh heh...

:)

[mzmolly]

12. Molly Ivins says "Deans got Elvis"

I agree. He's got mass appeal.

[wyldwolf]

13. Someone has implied southerners have no brains?

?

[robbedvoter]

14. Aye-Aye, sir! We humbly await being attacked by you (your guy)

and will not answer, but be nice and shut up!

[madfloridian]

16. I praised Clark in my post. You just insulted me after I praised him.

Not good manners. If there is anything "us Southern folk" have, it is good manners. Not too bright....but manners we'uns was raised on.

[darkstar]

17. Especially in face of

Louisiana just electing Dem governor.

[quaker bill]

18. As a southerner I agree

Dean is very strong down here.

I also think Clark's military experience is very much oversold at DU. I agree that it has merit and is a good selling point, but we are not electing just the military Commander in Chief. We are also electing the national Chief Executive Officer for all matters non-military.

Clark has made some fine points in this regard as well, but his resume's relative lack of private sector experience is where he needs to build some additional cred. More marketing there would be in order.

[mlawson]

21. Don't hold your breath, madfloridian.

Southerners are the one group here that may be bashed, with impunity. You will see.

[janx]

26. I don't know how southerners can stand the pandering and

patronizing behavior of some politicians. There was a thread about this some time back.

[arewethereyet]

27. good luck on your peace mission

I could do without the south bashing

[Skwmom]

28. Florida as A LOT of transplanted northerners.

Only certain portions of Florida can really be called the South anymore.

[Leftist78]

32. I am a Southerner

and a Dean supporter, but realistically I have to admit Dean will have a harder time down here than Clark or Edwards. It's not impossible for him to take a couple of southern states, but he'll have to work his ass off for them, and I think he can and will.

He is capable of getting a couple down here in the general, and I think that's all it would take honestly.

[Ksec]

33. Well maybe if the South would stop being so divisive

WTF You haven't elected a Dem since JFK? You wont elect a Yankee? Who are the ones creating the division here? Would you like it if the North wouldn't vote for a Southerner? Maybe you southern people should get out and raise some conscience's. Its the South that has been killing the Dem Party.

[madfloridian]

35. Hey, I am voting for a Northerner! Howard Dean.

My husband is a yankee. I don't know what you mean??

Have you read Dean's Southern Strategy? Are you aware that Nixon and his bunch, followed by Reagan, planned all this hatred in the South?

Go do some reading before you open your mouth and sound like "us ignorant Southern folk."

:evilgrin:

Educate yourself.

[Ksec]

39. Has the South voted for a Yankee since JFK? NOPE

Since the Civil Rights bill was passed the South hasnt voted for a Yankee. Now I know not all of the South are not racist, but a majority are or else these votes would turn out differently. You wanna hold your head in the sand and pretend theyre not, be my guest. History proves you wrong. The South will not vote for a Yank because hes a Yank.

[Leftist78]

40. nice assumption for someone who doesn't live here

first of all, it's true there are quite a number of racists here. I'd even go so far as to say that IMO probably one third have SOME racist tendency here or there, but to say that the majority of the south is racist is an ignorant statement.

It's true that the people of the South shifted their vote in the 60's for mostly racist reasons, but I would argue that for the majority, that has nothing to do with why they vote republican.

At this point, many people vote Republican down here because they have been in power for so long they control the issues, frame them the way they want with the local media's help, outspend the Democrats here at a much higher rate than the national average, and divide people racially. I do believe that racism is an integral part of the Republican strategy, and that does get a number of people in the South to vote Republican, but the bigger reason is the fact that the political landscape here is controlled by Republicans.

Using your argument, I could assume that most of the people in New England are open-minded, forward thinking visionaries committed to the cause of downtrodden people everywhere just because they vote Democratic, and while I'm sure there are many New Englanders who are, that's not why all of them vote Democratic.

They do it for a lot of the same reasons that people down here vote Republican. It's just become the norm. Their parents voted for Democrats, everyone they know votes Democratic, and largely because of that, they do too.

You're also generalizing when you say the South hasn't gone for a yankee since Kennedy. Different races played out differently, and different states have voted differently over the years just like every other region in the country.