Corporal punishment in public schools

[Gringo]

How much should be allowed?

[htuttle]

1. Ask any dog trainer

If you beat a dog, it will get mean.

Why would it be different where children are concerned?

[Gringo]

5. Kids are not dogs.

They can think about why they are being punished, and what they can do in the future to avoid the punishment. Positive reinforcement should be primary in childrearing, but there is a place for a spanking - it should be rare, though.

[htuttle]

10. That is wrong headed

If you think that the logical mind can process the 'reasons' for a beating, then you are mistaken. The pain of a beating blocks out most thoughts but fear and revenge. Logic has no place in that situation, no matter the motives of the person doing the beating.

It's that same type of thinking that leads to the belief that, for example, if the US military just punishes the Iraqi people enough, and explains why it's doing what it's doing, they will be kowtowed into submission.

It doesn't work in Iraq, it doesn't work in Palestine, it doesn't work with kids, and it doesn't work with dogs. A resort to violence is a sign that your imagination has failed to come up with anything better, and will almost always make the situation worse.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. are you a parent?

Have kids? Raised any? Have you raised a child from infancy to adulthood without ever spanking them?

If not, well...

[htuttle]

20. Yes, and yes

Two boys, two years apart. They are now in their 20's.

The closest to physical punishment they ever received from me were vigorous bear hugs (one under each arm, their feet off the ground, etc...) when splitting them apart when they were fighting with each other. Grappling and immobilization? Sure -- they were boys -- they fight with each other! But, I never raised a hand to strike them, and wouldn't have.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. touche...

Okay, still, I don't think a spanking is child abuse.

[CalebHayes]

55. It is... Why don't we spank the terrorists in Cuba?

[MissB]

22. I have kids

And I don't spank. Part of the current "postive parenting" message includes no spanking. I see it as more of a generational gap- my parents were told that spanking was appropriate so my brothers and I were switched or swatted for various offenses.

I find spanking to be abhorrent, so therefore my parenting technique does not include spanking.

I have two boys, ages 4 and 5. If I was going to spank them, I probably would have by now. I have yet to find a need to do so. Part of my decision is based on society's current message - that overwhelming says that hitting is bad.

I don't criticize my parents for their choice to spank my siblings and myself. But I would take the time to educate friends that think that spanking is the solution to their children's discipline problems. Does that make sense? Don't feel condemned for a choice that you made while raising your kids. The message was likely different back then.

[Gringo]

26. I am a parent.

And as a parent, I try everything. Kids are overwhelming in their need for attention and discipline. When they were very young we briefly tried spanking regularly, then switched to time-outs. Spanking often DOES NOT work, I can say from experience. But now, a few years later, I've found that when I've told the kids 5 times to do something, they're not listening to ANYTHING I say, and I find myself getting shrill, that a couple of swats on the bottom is a good way to let them know I mean business. The abstract notion of "teaching them that violence is the way to resolve conflicts" and "might makes right" is subsequent to having an orderly, harmonious household where the kids know what is expected of them, and what will happen if they deliberately disobey.

[redqueen]

39. I hear you

But IMO, and also as a parent who has tried spankings AND time outs, I find that rewards for good behavior work MUCH better than punishments for bad.

All children will test you and try to find out how far they can go. The test for you is to be consistent and ensure they know that there ARE boundaries and if they cross them, they will lose privileges. Whatever they're most fond of, just take it away for a while, and see how fast they respond the next time you tell them, 'if you don't do X right now, you won't be able to X for X amount of time'.

Mine are only 4 and 6, but they get it already.

[Gringo]

19. Three swats on a bare hiney is a "beating"?

And comparable to the atrocities being visited on the Iraqis?

That's as much of a stretch as when the right-wingers call the minimal safety net in this country "communism".

[htuttle]

23. Comparable? No, certainly not comparable

However, the mindset that you can positively change someone's behavior through the application of violence is, in fact, comparable.

You can certainly change someone's behavior using violence -- however, you are unlikely to end up with what you were hoping for.

[Gringo]

28. I even disagree that it is violence

Violence is about hurting or instilling real fear in someone. My kids know that I would never hurt them. They don't flinch when I take off my belt or take a knife out of the drawer, because they know I would never do them any harm.

The hand-on-butt spankings I've given them were more about snapping them out of the tantrum they were in, not hurting them. In one case, it was because the little one had opened the front door and walked out into the street even though he knows it's not allowed. The spanking was to let him know that this is something very dangerous that he should take very seriously. If you just TELL them not to do it, you can see their eyes glaze over, as they start to daydream about the next plaything they want to play with,

[lapislzi]

45. What a confusing message!

That's the same hand you use to hug and caress your kid. Your kid needs unconditional love, not occasional violence. The only things hitting a kid teach her is what she will get hit for, and that it is OK for big people to hurt little people.

I have never hit my kid, and I don't expect I ever will.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

41. Having been on the receiving end of abusive parents...

I have to say that if a teacher EVER touched my kid the fecal material would hit the fan. I have had to resort to a loving swat on het behind only once or twice when she did something extremely dangerous and - I admit - I lost my temper a bit. I struggle with this each day knowing that if I let my guard down - I can easilly turn into my mother/father.

[PissedOffPollyana]

27. Corporal punishment does no good

and can only do harm.

It is my honest opinion that if a parent feels they need to strike their child to get their attention, they are being lazy. Children respond to those they respect; if they do not respect their parent, whose fault is that? Too many people, IMO, are of the mind that respect should be automatic but do not extend it to their children. They use means like spanking to do what they were not able to, give their children a reason to 'behave'. Meanwhile, they teach them that it is okay to react with violence to something you don't like if you are bigger and stronger. All the rationalizations in the world cannot erase that underlying truth. Why not treat them like the humans they are and make them care enough about their parents' respect to do the right thing. Or is that too much work?

BTW, my parents raised us without yelling or hitting. They just found it to be a rather uncivilized and disrepectful way to treat people you love. They saved us from the savage paddle beatings most of our friends got in school (in OK), which really were horrible!

[littlejoe]

30. There is a difference

between "beating" a child and disciplining a child. I will never be in favor of beatings. I will always be in favor of corporal discipline, done out of love, never done in anger. It works.

[PissedOffPollyana]

36. With all due respect, not for me.

No matter what, spanking and physical punishment of every stripe is all about humiliation and physical intimidation. These are not exactly positive elements in molding a human psyche. Sure, it gets an immediate reaction but so does denial of privleges. Actually, when I was a kid, I used to bitch because in not having all the creature comforts I was used to when I was being punished, I actually suffered more than friends who got spankings. In the end, though, I learned a valuable lesson that my friends did not: Bad behavior results in tangible consequences, no matter how big you are.

We were, all 3 of us, extremely hyperactive kids. My Mom got us engaged in something productive when we were getting antsy and told us calmly that TV, toys and play-time were for people who behaved with respect for others when needed. The most she would do is wrap her arms around us and whisper in our ears that we were getting out of control & she would be disappointed if she had to lose her temper. Mind you, she started out with reason & logic long before we were as much of a handful, so perhaps that helped. I think it was more about the fact that she respected us too much to humiliate us.

What do spanking parents do when their kids have grown and they still won't listen? If it's not there at 3, it won't be there at 15.

[NashVegas]

53. I Would Be *Less* Inclined to Spank a Hyper-Active Kid Than a Non

I'm not an anti-spanker, necessarily, either. Hyper kids just don't process things in the same way. When you use physical force, they're dragging you into their game, at least that was my experience.

When I was a teen, I babysat for a manic 3-4 year old terror of a boy whose mother was horrible when it came to disciplining him. He'd scream to get his way, she'd scream, he'd scream back and get violent. She'd raise a kitchen spoon as if to hit him, he'd switch tactics and start whining. She'd turn around and give him whatever he wanted.

Me, I'd put him on the couch and take away his toys, turn off the tube when he acted up, and kid, if you want to scream a lung out, be my guest. Worked just fine.

They moved away when he was 5. Last I heard, he ended up in Juvi hall. Sad case.

As for the poll, I had to click 'other.' Having been the recipient of spankings where the administrator (my mom) had the self-discipline to a) inform us when a spanking was imminent, and b) wait two hours to let it sink in, and give herself time to get her own emotions in check, what guarantee do I have that a school representative would administer corporal punishment in a fair-handed fashion and their own self-discipline?

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Depends on the goal, on what you want to teach

If you want to teach kids that conflicts are best solved by the larger stronger person hitting the smaller, weaker one, then corporal punishment is the most efficient and sure-fire method ever devised.

If you want to teach kids about self-respect, self-control, and non-violent resolution of conflicts, the best way to do that is to be an adult that does not hit people, even if the people in question are too small to hit back.

[Gringo]

3. I agree to a degree.

Regular corporal punishment desensitizes and makes people mean. I also think an occasional slap across the face when a child is having a ridiculous tantrum can be a real eye-opener. I can count the number of times I was spanked/paddled as a child on one hand, but I'm grateful for all of them.

But I agree, spenking a child more than once or twice a year, or even overly relying on the threat of a spanking will have a negative effect. It should be the ultimate punishment, reserved only for the most severe violations of rules.

[Gringo]

4. To those who say a teacher should never TOUCH a child:

You are insane. You are contributing to a highly unnatural state of our culture, where teachers of our young children are supposed to teach, care for and nurture our kids, but never lay a finger on them. I was so sad to find that my kid's pre-k teacher was NOT allowed to change his pants when he wet them. My wife had to come to the school and do it. This kind of hypersensitizing/making simple human touch verboten probably CONTRIBUTES to the amount of violence/child molesting that goes on. People don't know how to touch each other appropriately because they are not allowed to touch!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. I voted that because there was no other option

Teacher shouldn't be spanking kids under any circumstance for any reason. Parents of course have the right to spank their kids.

I object to the idea that parents and teachers are equal - they are not.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

13. you didn't leave a real option - no to teachers, yes to parents

Teachers shouldn't be spanking kids under any circumstance for any reason. Parents of course have the right to spank their kids.

I object to the idea that parents and teachers are equal - they are not.

[HereSince1628]

58. If I can smack down the teacher, then OK

Its age discrimintation, OK?

A parent smacking the principle or teacher is commiting battery, why? Because the principle and teacher are provided the protection of the law. The only reason its tolerated is because primitive communities don't see children as worthy of the same protections.

Hitting ISN'T a humanizing touch. Its a form of intimidation used by apes that can't communicate.

[Snivi Yllom]

6. hitting is not the answer

Removing problem children from the classroom is the answer so they do not steal the education of children who want to behave and learn.

[OhioStateProgressive]

9. parents spank kids when they are bad

I just see a great difference between spanking and abuse

[lapislzi]

44. What's a "bad" kid?

Correct the behavior.

No child is "bad." Children's behavior needs to be shaped. This can be accomplished without resorting to violence. It's hard to do, but most things that are worthwhile are also difficult.

[LeahMira]

17. Well...

Removing problem children from the classroom is the answer so they do not steal the education of children who want to behave and learn.

... then you would wind up with maybe three children left in each classroom.

[JailBush]

7. In theory, I'm not absolutely opposed to corporal punishment, BUT...

Are there any people left in public schools who are qualified to dispense it? School officials rank as some of America's greatest scum, and most of the good teachers have been driven out, too. I spent sixteen years in public education, and I worked with some truly frightening teachers - some extraordinary abominations.

Even worse, many, if not most, parents don't seem to give a damn. So I'm leery of turning children over to fools and thugs masquerading as teachers in corporate subsidiaries that remain public schools in name only.

[Gringo]

11. You have a point. That's sad.

The principal who paddled me in second grade was to me a repected (and feared) authority figure, but one who I also trusted, and wouldn't have hesitated to run to in time of trouble. People in general can be such a-holes nowadays.

[ACK]

8. No corporal punishment but touching...

Give me a break. I don't believe in beating a child. period.

On the face with a backhand. On the butt with a board. It does not matter.

[Gringo]

14. I added a choice for just touching. Sorry I left it off.

EOM

[ACK]

32. Nope.. sorry not making myself clear

No beating but touching appropriately is cool.

Yes, I have kids.

[eyesroll]

16. I taught high school for one year

I am a 5'2", 120# female. I'm also a klutz, and not strong or athletic.

I think I'd get killed if I tried to corporally(?) punish my students.

For the record, I think educators should never be hitting their students (well, in self-defense if necessary, perhaps). I'm not fond of it when parents do it, either, but I'm not a parent, child psychologist or a doctor, so I really don't feel qualified to lobby for outright prohibition. I know I responded better to the "we're very, very disappointed in you because we think you're smarter than your behavior shows" lecture (which happened in age-appropriate vocabulary just about every time I did something dumb, and never failed to get to me) than I did to getting a swat on the behind (which only happened a few times in my childhood).

[Terwilliger]

18. I was threatened with paddling in 11th grade

I told the principal (assistant, as I recall) that if that paddle touched my ass I'd grab it and beat her with it.

That was my last high school experience.

[TrogL]

24. I taught at a school where corporal punishment was mandatory

Teachers were expected to do it sometime during the first part of the school year or were considered bad teachers.

I tried it once and lost the respect of a class.

The principal was fired by Christmas.

[CalebHayes]

56. That is EVIL!

Why did you work there?

[redqueen]

25. By spanking you teach them

that violence is a good way to teach people, get results, etc.

PRIMITIVE!

[littlejoe]

29. I don't care what anyone says,

the old saying, "spare the rod and spoil the child" is true.

[MissB]

31. So at what point should I start applying the rod?

My kids are 4 and 5. I have yet to apply the rod. They aren't spoiled kids. They are well-behaved, respectful kids.

Gee, should I start now, just in case?

[Gringo]

33. Never, if they're always relatively good.

If so, you're unusually lucky. If you come home from the mailbox and find the 4 year old about to stick a wire hanger into the wall socket, and the 5 year old is lighting the drapes on fire with a match, that would probably be the time for a spanking to show that this is REALLY REALLY unacceptable behavior.

Spankings shouldn't be for the normal misbehavior, like figthing over a toy, or coloring in Mommy's Cosmopolitan magazine.

[MissB]

49. If I find my curtains on fire and my kid electrocuted

Then I have failed as a parent. I don't see why I would punish my children for my obvious mistake of leaving dangerous materials and situations open to them. How would hitting them help them understand the danger any better?

I can think of at least thirty alternatives to using spanking as a method of punishment. What is lacking in today's society is the ability to disseminate that information. If the parents do not have an alternative in their bag of parenting tricks, it rather makes unfortunate sense that one would resort to spanking.

What it comes down to for me is this: I don't think it's a good idea for my children to hit other kids or other people. For some reason I think it might be hard to convince them of this if I hit them myself. Which is why my husband and I have chosen to leave the spanking option out of our bag of tricks. Considering our results so far, I see no need to add it in.

Again, I am not condemning previous generations of adults for using spanking as a tool. My own parents did that. It is what they were taught. I have been taught differently and I cannot connect the lack of spanking in children today with poor behavior.

[Gringo]

51. You'd have to be a fool to think

you can completely childproof a home. There will ALWAYS be SOMETHING dangerous around.

I understand your thinking, but I think you are being far too pat about it.

[MissB]

52. Well, I certainly didn't mean to leave the impression that my home

is completely child proofed. Nor are my children perfect. I just don't see spanking as a good response to electrocution and fire. For that matter, I'm sure you realize by now that spanking isn't in my bag of parenting tricks, so no matter how dramatic or dire the situation, I would not spank.

It's not part of my parenting philosophy.

Take away the childproofing argument (which is a bit dramatic, eh?) and I still wouldn't spank my child for hurting themselves or my house.

[littlejoe]

42. To missb,

If your kids are unspoiled and well behaved, then there is no need for the rod, of course. The rod, so to speak is naturally a punishment, a deterrent against bad behavior.

[Stuckinthebush]

34. I've never hit my children

I have this wacky philosophy that hitting your child teaches your child to hit.

My children do get out of line at times (like all children - even those that are hit), but the right look and words get them back in line. You start the respect thing early in life, and it builds up over time. I respect them, they respect me.

Funny how that works.

[Gringo]

35. Teaches them to hit, huh...

Well, If somebody at my kid's school is bullying my boys, I do hope they will restrain themselves, but if the bully crosses the line, I sure as hell want them to fight back. Running to tell the teacher every time makes kids into social pariahs, and just sucking it up and taking it is a great way to prepare them for a life of sucking it up and taking it. The attitude of never fighting back is killing this party, too... People act as though being hit is the worst thing that can happen to a person.

I was much more hurt by verbal taunts in school than by any bully's fists. Being big, I didn't get physically bullied much, but one low-blow insult from a "cool" girl was devastating.

[redqueen]

38. Well

These are two different subjects...

Violence to get a desired result, and violence in self-defense.

I'll be enrolling both my young girls in martial arts as soon as I can get my finances back to normal (crossing fingers).

Martial arts training teaches young people to respect physical violence and to use it only as a last resort. Sure some kids get rowdy but I've trained and have seen the difference first hand.

There's a clear difference between training your kids to use physical force to defend themselves and training them to hit someone when they don't do what you want them to.

[htuttle]

40. Actually, that was another one of the reasons I never hit my boys

I have a background in the martial arts, and passed on what I could to my sons once they got old enough. I draw a very bright, indelible line between when it is appropriate to hit someone, and when it is not. Self defense, only. I taught them that verbal insults were not sufficient reason to strike someone. Defense of Ego is not self defense.

I fear that if I hadn't done that, they would have taken what training I was able to give them (which one later pursued on his own, and the other did not), and become bullies themselves.

BTW, I didn't teach them that running to teacher was the only solution either. In fact, given the political atmosphere around our house, it was all I could do to instill upon them that it wasn't ALL authority that was bad -- just BAD authority that was bad. That has actually been a far more difficult lesson to pass on than any of the rest -- They'll probably have to figure that one out themselves in their 30's like I finally did.

Alan Colmes, they are not...

[littlejoe]

43. When I was growing up in the late fifties and early sixties,

I cannot ever remember seeing ill-behaved children in public. Now it is so commonplace, that I have actually had, on numerous occasions strangers come up to my wife and me and compliment us on how well behaved and well mannered our son is. It took a combination of the right values and discipline to achieve this goal. We never beat our son when he was young, but we did spank him on the rare occasions that called for it. Our son has never been in a fight in his life. He gets straight A's in school and is as well balanced as can be expected for a late teenager. Oh, and he loves us very much.

[DrWeird]

37. If anybody laid an agressive hand on my kids.

I'd teach them true meaning of the word aggression.

[democratreformed]

46. Let's see if I can do this and make sense

Before I entered the classroom as a teacher, I was strictly opposed to corporal punishment. My husband had refused to take a paddling and left school instead (for good - he quit in the 9th grade).

My first teaching job was at a school that used paddling as THE ONLY means of discipline. Needless to say, I struggled terribly in my first year. I got several reprimands from the principal for sending kids to his office. It was MY job to deal with them. By the second year, I had a little bit of experience using the paddle. I will never forget the very first time I paddled a student. I cried for half of the night. What I soon learned was that, at that particular school, there was NO respect for any teacher who could not use the paddle effectively. None from the students, none from the other teachers, and certainly none from the administration. I also learned that it was not a big thing to most of those students. Eventually, I learned to use the paddle to control my classes. I was even commended by the principal part way in to the new year because he "heard me using the paddle more and more."

After two years at that school, I moved to the school in my home town. This school had basically outlawed paddling. Actually, there were so many rules and regulations pertaining to paddling that it was rarely used as a method of discipline. So I struggled with learning other methods.

The most striking thing to mention is the absolute differences in the two schools. The whole atmosphere was radically different. There was very little respect from students at my new school for any teacher. The administrators were totally unsupportive. One particularly bad day, I called for the principal and left my classroom to go into the bathroom and cry out of frustration. The principal never came and I was forced to return to my classroom. If not for that, that day may have been my very last as a teacher. By the end of that year, I was regularly buying cokes and bribing my students to do what I asked just to make it through the day.

I went on to teach three more years. Sometimes I feel very badly and I regularly tell people that I "wimped out". I do not know what needs to be done to "fix" our school systems but I left firmly believing that they are a complete failure. In my new school, there was no mutual respect for anyone - not students, not teachers, and not administrators. There was too much emphasis on "bribing" - that was the accepted method at this school. We were constantly promising more and more rewards for good behavior and learning. I'm not saying rewards are a bad thing, but these kids came to expect it and sometimes acted out solely because there was not specific reward promise hanging in the air.

I did not answer the question above because I don't know the answer to that either. I would love to believe that paddling is never ever necessary and there are other methods that work just as well. It's just that I never managed to figure out what they were. And, I have seen first hand the effects of two different methods. I can say, without a doubt, that, were I to return to the classroom tomorrow, I would much prefer to go to a school like the first one I taught at.
This was a school where parents, administrators, teachers, and students were all respectful and supportive of each other.

[Gringo]

50. I hear you.

I understand where the anti-spankers are coming from. It's a normal reaction to the excesses that have ocurred in schools (nuns w/rulers) and abuuse in the home. But I really do think that when all avenues of discipline for the teacher are cut off, except for the silly "time-out", and when school administrators no longer back up their teachers against parents of rotten kids (remember the teacher last year who gave half her kids zeroes for plagiarizing, and when the rotten parents complained, the school administration caved to the parents?) This kind of environment is so horrible. The parents, the teachers, everybody at every turn demonstrates to the kids that at no level is anyone willing to take responsibility for disciplining them.

My friend Rich is a teacher for kids with "learning disabilities" None of them are retarded or handicapped, mind you - they're just hyper, or disruptive, or whatever. The school policy is to give them candy every time they complete a task (great for that hyperactivity), and there is no real punishment, even though the kids often start near-riots.

I remember so clearly how as kids, we just steamrolled teachers with a weak demeanor. We actually liked the tough ones. Kids WANT limits, and they want discipline, but they will test the adults, and with time-outs and candy dangling carrots, we are failing them miserably.

[mitchum]

47. NONE...even though I am sorely tempted at times

[qanda]

48. Beat 'em!!!!

Let me edit to say: This was an inside joke I had with one of my friends who used to say this whenever my kids were acting up.

[no one in particular]

54. Never a teacher or principal

After the age of 5 or 6, spanking does little good anyway.

You can most certainly put the "fear of God" in a kid without hitting them. I've worked hard to not only have my children behave, but know why it is important that they do. One day I won't be there to tell them what to do and I want them to be able to do the right thing on their own.

Still, it reminds me of a classic Denis Leary routine:

"MY PARENTS USED TO BEAT THE SH*T OUT OF ME, OK! And looking back, I respect them for it and I'm looking forward to beating the shi*t out of my kids, don't you?"

[RichardRay]

57. Not a problem for me...

When I went to middle school in rural Hawaii MANY years ago the teachers had certain rules about timeliness. After a certain time access to classes, etc. was via an office where the teacher waited with a paddle. If you were late you trotted through the office, got swatted, and went on to class. It was no big deal, just a mildly painful consequence of not doing something I knew I was supposed to have done. It was certainly not a 'beating'.

I certainly wouldn't want teachers administering 'beatings'. I see nothing wrong with a clearly understood standard whose violation results in a swat.

I have no experience to support the idea that we can teach our kids to not be forceful by not being forceful ourselves. Violence is another issue, but not all force is violence.