Welfare State

[redqueen]

Okay you centrists... let's rumble! (just kidding ;) )

Seriously... we had a great debate about economic justice and I'd love to have one about this:

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

For all I know, this came from one of the posts in that thread.

In any case, comments in another thread about blowing bazillions on war programs made me want to shed light on another way of looking at society in general. I think living here we are conditioned to be more competitive with each other, rather than cooperative. I think that feeds the idea that war is inevitable.

So... check out the link (it's really long), and let's debate!

:D

[redqueen]

1. Kick!

:kick:

[redqueen]

2. And another...

:kick:

[camero]

3. Good article, this part is especially true

Children are deeply handicapped by poverty and end up with tremendous rates of learning disabilities and crime rates. So a country which chooses to loose one fourth of its children on the floor will later have to invest enormous sums in policing and incarcerating their anger - money the people in the welfare states instead can go on vacation for!

[redqueen]

4. Ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure

It's about time to ACT on this knowledge! :)

[cryofan]

5. I think this is my link from another thread--this guy is a genius

This webpage probably cemented for me the rationale to support Kucinich. This Jakob Holdt has really summarized a nascent progressive vision that may be taking hold of Americans soon, at least I hope so....

[redqueen]

7. If so then THANK YOU

This person's e-mail I think summed up in one document the best reasons to avoid continuing on the path we're on.

Look at the things that citizens in other countries enjoy... mandatory 4 weeks paid leave?!!!! Talk about quality family time! Talk about reducing stress, and ensuring families get a good vacation once in a while! Talk about reducing crime, by instilling self-confidence and safety instead of fear and insecurity!

I don't know what to make of the lack of responses to this person's statemetns... maybe I should just move!

[cryofan]

9. I am already looking into moving to Europe

My grandmother was born in Northern Ireland, so for a couple hundred dollars and time filling out forms, I could be a citizen of Ireland. That would make me an EU citizen. And I could move to countries like Denmark and Amsterdam where they really have things organized properly.

But I thought I would first try to move the USA in that direction with Kucinich. However, it looks like the VAST majority of Americans have already internalized the propaganda of corporate serfhood....

[redqueen]

6. C'mon people

Do we like where we're headed? I don't...

I want to throw this engine into reverse and head towards people-friendly policies like these.

What do you think?

[camero]

8. I'm still reading it..lol

but we are headed for destruction if we keep the course we are on.

[Sugarbleus]

43. I'm ready!

I agree with this article 2000%

My family and friends have been wanting this type of government for YEARS!!!!!!!!!! There's plenty of room and wealth in this country for everyone to benefit and enjoy some modicum of quality of life! We talk about it all the time. We need to stablize the society from the BOTTOM UP not the other way round. If we had more of our basic needs tended to,that would free up more cash for us to SPEND and send back into the economy!

I like what the writer of the article said about Clinton. I voted for Clinton then became quite angry with him for KILLING THE WELFARE PROGRAMS! instead of improving them, for NOT fighting HARD ENOUGH for health care for EVERYONE walking on this soil--employed or not! There are two or three types of Dems today. The ones that would try to make real change like in that article are rarely given any voice. BIG MONEY AND POWER shoot them down everytime. GREED is EVIL.:evilfrown:

[Mairead]

10. Outstanding article, and bang on too.

We could have such better lives, if only so many of us weren't such defensive thinkers. The elites certainly have a lot of people hoodwinked.

[camero]

11. I also now know...

why Europeans are so much more pragmatic than we are. Because they have seen more of the world than we have.

[redqueen]

12. Thanks for commenting

I think your statement about defensive thinking speaks volumes. If only people would not take it as a personal offense when they are wrong. (Is that what you meant, even?)

My brother in law, a Dem who gives to Sierra club and has no TV and listens to NPR and who gives rides to Dems to get out the vote, thinks free trade is good.

I weep for the future of this country, and for the promise it held that now seems all but lost. And I may very well end up taking my kids somewhere more evolved.

[camero]

13. I'm sorry you had to kick this twice

it's an excellent post, as usual.

[redqueen]

14. I don't get it

This is so vital -- it seems, to me, to be directly tied to WHY our nation just keeps marching rightward.

I guess either some of us don't mind it, or don't realize it... I really am at a loss. :shrug:

[camero]

15. Me,too.

GD has seemed to just become a forum for a person's candidate and not real issues. Like this one.

Also, the period after FDR's reforms was the fastest period of rising standard of living in our history. It almost depresses me.

[redqueen]

16. It has depressed me.

Past tense. I was so energized yesterday, after Kucinich's strong showing at the debate... but now it seems it's back to business as usual. :(

I agree with you that FDR's reforms ushered in the 50's prosperity, but the war got all the credit. While the war did have a lot to do with the recovery, FDR's programs would have done it too.

I'm becoming literally terrified that if we stay in Iraq for years, as most are promising, that we will see the end of FDR's programs within my lifetime.

Not only that, but free trade will ensure that our standard of living drops like a rock, and we'll become willing participants in the race to the bottom. :(

[camero]

18. If "defense" was done in the way the term implies.

We could very well afford this. By "defense" I just mean using our military to just defend our borders, instead of sending them all over the world.

I fear that we will see the lowering of our living standards to 3rd world rates too if we keep going the way we are going.

[Sugarbleus]

44. DITTO that camero

I'm a newbie. I've been browsing these forums looking for someone to be talking the ISSUES also. After all, that IS the point isn't it? The issues? What would best cure the ills of American society?
Thanks for this thread. I've only been able to post a few articles on issues the whole time I've been involved in this website.

[Mairead]

17. "If only people would not take personal offense when they're wrong"

Yes, that's basically what I meant. So many people take a position and then all their energy from that point forward goes into defending it, as though they were going to be punished if they changed their minds!

[redqueen]

20. I interpret it as insecurity

I've been in conversations about the most ridiculous things, and am so shocked at how unwilling people are to admit when they're just plain wrong.

[Kanary]

39. Being willing to be wrong is usually desperate

Most people have barricaded themselves in order to not have to think about the hard things. Often, the only thing that breaks through that tough armor is having it hit personally... and hard. It's so very tragic... it truly is the stuff of Greek tragedies.

So, I'm willing to let it slide until the "masses" learn it the hard way... but that means that so many of us will be doing the suffering in the meantime. We need to be able to get away from it until the lesson is learned, and there is a willingness to hear reason.

"So many people take a position and then all their energy from that point forward goes into defending it, as though they were going to be punished if they changed their minds!"

Hence, Bushwa is appreciated because he is "decisive". GAk He's wrong as all hell, but he sure is decisive.

Kanary

[camero]

53. for most people

I take being willing to be wrong as being willing to learn. None of us has all the answers. I wish people would open thier eyes to see what is going on but it will take a catastrophe, I'm afraid.

[ninkasi]

19. Truly eye-opening article

I think the Danes have it right, too. We waste so much money on war, our ridiculous drug wars, and making sure we keep people poverty sticken, without adequate housing, medical care, or education.

The system in this country is completely corrupt and mean spirited. We could learn a lot from the Danes, and other Europeans. This country could be so much better than it is now, if we just had the will to make it so.

[redqueen]

21. Thank you for your comment

I too think we could learn a lot ... we must develop the will, or go the way of other fascist countries. :(

[Iverson]

22. pro-family

The argument put forth about Denmark's welfare state being pro-family looks sensible to me. I liked the whole thing. It was a refreshing and different perspective.

[redqueen]

23. Thanks for commenting

The way their system is run, unselfishly, and with people as the focus, not profit, reflects how I'd like this country to be run.

(more time for family vs. time working to profit others, rehabilitation vs. punishment for criminals, not accepting poverty as a fact of life, etc.)

[ShimokitaJer]

24. An eye-opening article

There are certainly lessons to be learned from that letter, but there are quite a few firmly ingrained attitudes that need to be overcome first. I can just hear the voices yelling that it's different here... we're a bigger country... we have a more diverse population... we have military obligations... anything to keep from acknowledging the fact that their way is working for the people and ours isn't.

But I'm an eternal optimist. I believe these attitudes can be overturned one by one with fearless leadership on the right to a living wage, nationalized health care, etc.

Thank for the enlightening post.

[redqueen]

26. Thanks for your comment.

Don't thank me, thank cryofan! Reading this has really opened my eyes. I knew these places were different (more paid leave for new moms, mandatory vacation, etc.), but this comprehensive explanation of how they're different has been very enlightening and encouraging.

Also a bit depressing... as I've realized just how LITTLE our more 'progressive' party has done for what I think are real progressive values. :(

[Kanary]

25. This has me in tears

I mean, I *knew* the reality of the difference in cultures, but this is just so striking.

I'm a "community" person... I want to work in tandem with others, and care about the situation of others as much as I care about my own situation. Can't do that here..... it doesn't come back. I've banged my head against a wall all my life, and I'm tired. So very tired. I just want to live in a country where the "mindset" is already there... where I don't have to talk myself bluein the face just to get someone to listen.

Reading this article makes me feel my fatigue all the more. It makes me ready to pack up and get the hell outta here. Even having to learn another language is a whole lot easier than struggling to get people to care, and to listen.

It would be even acceptable if there was some way to get pockets of this sort of thing happening here in the US, but... hah.. even Dems don't want to talk abou it.

I'm ready to pack..... So what if I can't even fly into the country. I'll bring a lot of food in, and just walk in. Wonder what their favorite food are that are in short supply.....?

Kanary

[redqueen]

27. Oh Kanary, I'm so sorry.

I was down myself but I really didn't hope to bring anyone else down.

Of all people, you're the last I would want to add any more heartache for. Please know that there are other people in this country who share your vision.

And this email seems to be more than a few years old (during Clinton's admin) so I'm sure the shortage is over, but I'd be completely understanding of your moving there and giving up on this country. Some days I think we have a chance, and other days I just feel like it's hopeless.

I hope all our hard work pays off, and Kucinich is elected. That way I know your social services needs will be covered and you won't have to worry for your security anymore. I know that's what I think about when passing out flyers and getting dirty looks or eyes rolled at me or what have you. I just think about how much better this country could be, and keep on slogging.

I also hope that you regain that optimistic spirit that I think all Kucitizens HAVE to have. You're in my prayers.

Love and light,
RQ

[Kanary]

30. Now I'm *really* in tears!

Your kind words have knocked me over. I'm not used to being heard, and certainly not here. Thanks sooo very much... you don't know what that means to me!

To clarify...... I'm sad in reading that not just for my own survival.... or even for the survival of so many thousands of others in this country. I'm sad because I'm a "community" person stuck in a "rugged individualist" society! In other words, it isn't just that I want to be able to have an effect when I agitate for my own needs, but that I also so much need to live in a society whether others need *ME*. Where I can be counted on to live through the hard times in order to further the needs of other people. I need to live where people first think of pulling together for each other, rather than thinking always of themselves first.

I don't know if I'm saying this at all clearly..... I really do have tears in my eyes, and it's been a bad day.

In any case, your soft and kind words have been a balm to my injured soul today.

Kanary

[redqueen]

32. I wish I could hug you right now

I've read your pleas for understanding and it makes my heart ache for everyone in your situation. Whatever their circumstance, nobody deserves to be forgotten and left in the cold. That's what's happening to the most vulnerable among us, and it makes me sick that people in my own party have fed into it.

You may not be getting through to others, but I read you loud and clear. I hope you saw my response to your similar plea for understanding on another thread... if only people would stop assuming and listen, I think there would be more empathy in the world. But our nonstop information flow has everyone so convinced they know so much... when in reality, the more we know, the more we know we don't know!

I'm glad I've helped, even if I did make you cry! (Sorry!)

Take care of yourself, and don't let that light of hope and optimism fade... know that we're all in the same boat, even if we're not all rowing in the same direction. :)

[Kanary]

35. Hugs gratefully accepted!

I've saved your replies, for "survival reading" on days when the world is crashing in on me!

And your words, too, camero.

Balm. Words of balm.

And a kick for this thread...

Kanary, grateful for such heartfelt words... and hugs...

[cryofan]

28. I am SO THRILLED that I have finally made some people see the light...

....about what is going on in the social democracies of Europe. I have been passing that american-pictures.com link around everywhere I can on the Web, and it looks like the meme it represents may have found a home in a few brains here tonight.

I have a collection of dozens of links that deal with that meme or similar ones, and I am going to post them here tonight.

Now let us take the meme embedded in these web pages and slowly spread them like a benevolent virus, a community-building virus, a solidarity virus, a union virus, a universal healthcare virus, an extended-leisure time virus, a Social Capital virus, throughout America. Let's turn America into something better than even Denmark aspires to be.

As far as I can tell, Kucinich is the best candidate to help us spread this virus. No offense to any other candidate. But that is my estimation. And he may not get the nomination, but it is clear to me that he can lead this movement because this viral idea, this meme, the one dealt with in the web page that started this thread, has ALREADY TAKEN ROOT in the brain of Dennis Kucinich.

[redqueen]

29. Please do!

I'm very interested to see those links!

I love your enthusiasm, re: changing the direction this country is in, and I agree with you that DK is the only one doing it.

Thanks so much for sharing this link. And thanks for keeping the faith. :)

[Kanary]

31. And *I'm* thrilled that you care enough to keep slogging through this....

I, also, had come to the point of giving up hope that anyone could hear... *anyone*, and that includes "progressives". At the moveon meeting last week, I said as much. I talked about Dennis Kucinich, and said the same thing you said here. Except that I made it personal, and said it was Clinton who made the last round of cuts that pushed me to the edge, so I don't trust the Dems either. I told them that just having a Dem elected who made more cuts, which would surely drive me into oblivion, was just not something I could put any energy into. I told them, it doesn't matter whether I die under a Dem presidency, or a Repub presidency... I'm still not breathing.

What I'd like to see now is that the few people who see this, and understand this come together and form enough of a community to support each other in this, because it's nigh impossible to hold to the light alone.

Thanks.

Kanary, who had to edit because of a danged "v".... silly letter...

[camero]

34. You're right Kanary. It doesn't matter whether it's dem or pub.

So let's keep this one kicked. And bless you.

[Kanary]

82. camero, it's pretty hopeless

The dems are no different in this whole aspect, and just trying to talk about it has me ground down.

There is noplace for someone like me to go to even talk about it, and get some understanding and support.

If I had a family member in the war now, I could get all kinds of support.

But, I'm in a different kind of war, and have to go it alone.

I'm utterly and completely discouraged and dispirited and burned out.

Kanary

[camero]

91. You don't have to go it alone

Even coming here and talking about it, you have your support group. and a rather large one at that...lol

You're right about the dems not addressing these issues. It just means we have to vote smarter. I think Kucinich is a big step in the right direction.

Part of the problem is that we as a society have been trained to love money so much that it almost doesn't matter how you get it.

That has to change.

[Kanary]

94. Wish you were right

camero, I so much appreciate your input. I also believe in the same thing... that not only people don't *have* to go it alone, but that, in the last analysis, we can't. It's our stoooopid belief in the rugged individualism that sabotages so much of what we try to do.

But, just knowing that, and understanding the truth of needing each other doesn't make it be so. I got slapped down harshly just yesterday for saying what you just told me. If I ever have the temerity to say that I can't do it alone, andneed others, I get judged, criticised and rejected. It seems the only way to actually get people to respond is to say you don't need them!

I agree that I had some support here in this thread earlier, and in the other one the other night. It did a lot to lift my spirits. But, it is far outweighed by all the criticism.

It really is hopeless. If one can't even come here and feel safe, then there is just no hope. I see that now. It just isn't going to change. Not in my lifetime, and not unless there is some cataclysmic upheaval.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate you listening.

Kanary

[Sugarbleus]

45. Kanary..

I went to a moveon meeting also but most of the people got up and left after the film! There were only two people who stood and spoke, all the while people were indeed leaving.????????????? I was disappointed. I had some things to say; most identicle to what we are talking about here.
I think I WILL change my vote for DK...
:D

[Kanary]

46. Hi Sugarbleus!

Welcome to DU!!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast:

You don't have a lot of posts yet, so you get my official welcome. :yourock:

As for the moveon meeting I went to, we had some discussion early on, which was OK, but nothing earthshaking. by the time we loosened up enough to have a *real* discussion, people were leaving, and we were literally standing by the door with people walking around us. Discouraging, but..... this is *not* a popular thing to think about or talk about.

You can see that right here on DU. Threads like this sink to the bottom quickly, and few participate. (There isn't a "look-see" count here, so we can't tell how many people read but don't post.) I've seen this before in other venues.. peple just don't want to talk about this issue. That's why I suggested that we need to have a group that is organized just around this issue... it's very isolating, and support is important for all of us involved with this.

Glad to hear you're willing to consider switching to Dennis. I think if you read his position on these issues, you'll find that his heart is solidly with us, and he has a deep understanding of why this is so important. He's been there, he's lived it, and he knows it in his gut.

Hope to talk more with you!

Kanary

[Sugarbleus]

48. Weeeeeeeeeee =o}

Thanks Kanary and nlighten!!

I was begining to feel a bit isolated. We could try to keep in touch in here til we figure out how to "group together". I think my email is posted; you're welcome to use it if necessary.

Yeah Yeah..... :bounce:

[cryofan]

36. more links to support this meme

This original one is the best:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

Here are the rest:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/AmericanProsperityMyth.html

http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/SocialDemocracy.htm
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htm

http://maxspeak.org/gm/archives/00000791.html

http://geocities.com/aufheben2/stc_intro

http://faculty.insead.fr/fatas/econ/Articles/Chasing%20the%20Leader.htm

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1933.pdf

http://www.mylinuxisp.com/~cryofan/

[redqueen]

51. Ohhhh KICK IT!

Thank you cryofan!

:D :yourock:

[Nlighten1]

47. Welcome to DU!

Glad you made it here. :)

[redqueen]

33. One more kick...

for the evening crowd.

Keep it kicked, please, populists! :)

[Kanary]

37. What we need is a Statue of Liberty -- in reverse

The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is sooo beautiful. Open arms for those who are left out in any way.

Clearly, the US is no longer even holding it's arms out for it's *own*. So, I propose that it's time other countries returned the favor, and accepted those of us who so much need the care of their advanced social programs. I also think there should/could be a condition on it..... that we use the time in our adopted country (after learning the language), to learn how their system works, to learn how it was instituted, and how it is maintained. We need to be a group of people learning how to think in community terms, rather than in "rugged individualist" terms, so that when the US finally gets it together and figures out that the horrible "welfare state" is much more productive, we can come back as teacher-citizens, to help organize the transition.

OK, so I'm an idealist. ^_^ But one thing I've seen in my life is that we USians, as a people, don't take too well to learning from others, so we need those within our own borders, who've seen the system up close and personal, as consultants. Much more importantly, we will need those of us who have already transitioned into the "community" model, and are comfortable within it.

I'm ready to volunteer to go learn. Where do I sign up?

Kanary, looking for that reversed Statue of Liberty in ....

[LeahMira]

92. Well, it begins in you.

The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is sooo beautiful. Open arms for those who are left out in any way.

It is a beautiful expression of what is best in humanity.

But, Kanary, the people who were already here when Europeans arrived welcomed those Europeans with open arms. Where are they now? On reservations and in ghettos in our big cities, struggling to survive.

Part of the curse that we have inherited for what our ancestors did lies in the suspicion that so many of us feel now. We, metaphorically speaking, were welcomed and pitied and received compassion, and we repaid that generosity by taking away everything. There are natural consequences for bad deeds... we don't need prisons. We are in the prison of our own guilt. Because we destroyed, we are stuck with the mindset that makes us think that everyone is the same as we are. Thus, we fear the stranger, but more than that we fear generosity. We imagine that generosity is "idealistic" and "impractical." And we are eating ourselves up with our fear.

I think the answers are possibly in European nations, but they are also right here under our noses. We just need to watch, listen and learn... and then live it ourselves.

[Kanary]

38. Doin' the bump n/t

[Kanary]

40. one last bump-up n/t

[K8-EEE]

41. I Never Thought I Would Be Contemplating Moving

But I have been. My grandparents are from Spain so I could move there; my hairdresser who is from Barcelona says there are tons of Americans living there now, lots more than when she moved here 10 years ago.

She also is moving back since she is self-employed and now divorced and can't afford her health insurance now that she's not on her husband's anymore.

I speak the language but my husband and children, who are 9 and 13, do not. That is a problem. He is an artist so might be able to swing something. Here, all the animation jobs are going out of the country anyhow.

I remember Pedro Almodovar's surprise at all the directives he received about not talking about the war etc. during the Oscars; he had been able to say whatever he wanted at the Goyas and it was very anti- the Spanish government's stand with GWB; the people there are 91% opposed to it, and Aznar is toast.

[cryofan]

42. Your kids will speaking it better than you within 2 years

That is a cinch!

The question is, can you get citizenship? If so, you can move to any other EU country, and get social benefits there, within certain constraints in some cases.

I myself have medical care via the VA. So that is not my concern. But I recently married, and I am not too heavily invested in the USA, and if we decide to have a kid, I want it to have an option to live in the EU, where it is now apparent to me that they have their act together in a way most Americans do even see....

[cryofan]

49. some interesting excerpts from "fighting for the welfare state"

Fighting for
the welfare state
....


I have for many years now been teaching in America about the European concept of the welfare state and the generally ill-informed American students (at least when it comes to conditions outside their own country) usually find it all a great idea when having it described. But when the question comes to "How do you go about making a welfare state?" they always express a tremendous sense of powerlessness when I tell them "You fight for it, you strike for it, you vote for it, of course!" - since this seems obvious to me and most Europeans.

I always come away with a feeling of how different we really are: the Americans with their tremendous feeling of power in terms of what the individual can accomplish on a selfish scale - and the Europeans with their similar sense of power as to what can be accomplished in unison for the benefit of all.

...


This time our nationwide general shutdown of society is about getting a 6 weeks paid vacation plan. The employers will only give 5 weeks vacation with full pay (as we and most Europeans have it now), but are willing to give one extra week unpaid. But the Danish employees won't settle. They don't think 5 weeks is enough for their round-the-world vacations (since one week is usually used for their Christmas vacation and another week for their skiing vacation).

So now they want 4 weeks for their summer vacation alone (since - as they rightly claim - it takes at least one week to get off the jet lag when going around the world to Thailand/Vietnam, Australia or Latin America - so that "lost week" doesn't count as real "quality vacation"!!!)

...

[camero]

54. hey cryofan

I used an excerpt of one of your links for my sig line. Hope ya don't mind.

Also, I worked with a co-driver once who was czech. He told me all about the European way of doing things and it amazed me also. He didn't speak a word of English so i had to use a translation book to communicate.

It's amazing what we Americans are missing out on. Truly.

[Selwynn]

50. I don't want to debate - I hate the centrist POV - so I'll just watch (nt)

[many a good man]

52. I've read, bookmarked, but not posted...till now

I also yearn deeply to live in a European-style welfare state. As an American I would gladly sacrifice a portion of my standard of living for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that others are not suffering. To me it is a moral imperative.

There are many reasons why America is so different than the affluent nations of Europe, why we seem to have less regard for the common good. Too many reasons to go into. Personally, I think the main reason is because we achieved democracy here BEFORE we had a workers revolution. We are unique among all nations in that regard thus we have less appreciation for democracy and for the power we have to alter the social order.

We were a country born without the rigid social stratification of our European forebears. Blessed with an abundance of natural resources, we were able to exploit this freedom to create unprecedented prosperity. Without stratification, the talents and creativity of ALL people could be unleashed. A major side effect of this phenomenon was the belief by many that government was not necessary to bring this prosperity into being; many have the impression government restrains people's ability to get ahead. Of course, this belief is amplified by the propaganda of the monied interests.

Unlike Danes, we progressives here have to work with this grave disadvantage. We have to acknowledge the reality of the situation while still holding on to our ideals. We have to acknowledge that we have an uphill struggle. There is an old spanish saying that goes "a man who is NOT a revolutionary at age 20 has no heart; a man who is STILL a revolutionary at age 40 has no brain."

Yet we know change is possible. The Progressive movement, New Deal, and Great Society show us that change in this country is possible under the right circumstances. Unfortunately, it seems those cirumstances only occur when the situation is so bleakly dire that the nation seems to be on the verge of collapse.

We may be at that point soon.

But then again we may not. My point is we should not be so critical of the incrementalists. I'm currently reading "The Clinton Wars" by Blumenthal and it has given me a renewed appreciation for Bill Clinton and the strategies he pursued. Like many, I was so disappointed by so many of his policies that I saw him as a traitor. I no longer think so. By being less rigid, I could open my eyes to the good things he was able to accomplish despite operating in a brutally hostile political environment.

We MUST remember that politics is the art of compromise. I think Clinton was earnestly trying to lay the groundwork for a liberal resurgence in America. The Bush/Cheney coup d'etat happened because his attempts threatened to be successful.

To be successful, we have to achieve a political majority. The Bush/Cheney junta should be helping us to make our case. But the detached, brainwashed majority will be slow to come around, at least until the spam really hits the fan and our standard of living is completely destroyed. We must work hard and have faith that people will come to their senses before its too late.

I believe its true that our enormous expenditures of the nations treasure on the military is the leading contributor to our decline and to our inability to fund social programs. Again, one must look soberly at our nation's history and acknowledge the difficulty of changing conventional wisdom in this area. We have always been a violent nation and much of our economic dominance the last 60-100 years is due mainly to our military might. To use another well-worn cliche, "live by the sword, die by the sword." It will take finesse to convince people that there is a better way.

I have one more point I'd like to make. I, too, have thought seriously about leaving this country. But then I think of the true meaning of patriotism. I am not a nationalist, yet this is my country and the country of my ancestors. Should I give up on it and let it wither away? Or should I stand up and fight. 227 years ago men and women were willing to give up their lives to establish a nation based on the concepts of freedom that we still hold dear. I ask myself if I am willing to make the same sacrifice for the same cause. I hope that I am and I hope that you are, too.

[cryofan]

55. OK, fine, Ithere was the attempt at universal healthcare by hillary, but..

...why did Clinto NOT advance his ideas in his second term? Why did he NOT try to communicate these ideas to America before he left?

The fact is that power corrupts, and Clinton was probably corrupted before he even got into the office.

BTW, even though she is a little scary, I would vote for Hillary.

[redqueen]

56. I see it the same way

Where has compromising got us so far? Dragged further to the right, that's where.

You don't get very far if you start out from a weaker position. If you know you're going to have to compromise, then you darn well better start off asking for more than you want.

It's the first law of bargaining.

[cryofan]

57. Exactly! Politics is a negotiation process between rich and the rest of us

And we have been bungling the negotiations BADLY! In fact, we are like a sucker walking into a used car lot and buying the car at whatever the sticker price is! WTF?

The Europeans however are virtually holding all that capital and investment in their countries hostage by periodically going on huge strikes.

We OTOH have been bamboozled by media propaganda and we all think we are going to be rich someday, so it won't matter anyway.
SUH-PRIZE SUH-PRIZE SUH-PRIZE /gomer pyle voice/...it aint gonna happen to the vast majority of us....

And we let CorpGovMedia scare us with boogeymen so that we will cave in and not negotiate....ooohh....Bin Laden gonna getcha....you better let us take your civil liberties away....Well, Bin laden killed 3000 one day, but 5000 AMericans die every day of the year from old age, heart disease, cancer etc. I would rather let bin laden and saddam die of old age, and put the money into healthcare and cancer research.

Oohh...George Bush is gonna getcha....he's gonna load the Supreme Ct with evil men...so you better let us nominate a centrist Republicrat....

[Kanary]

67. "Where has compromising got us so far?"

A lot of dead people, and many other people pushed to the wall.

There are many people saying it's time to stop with the compromise, stop with the trying to be so careful, and just come out what what we really believe and what we really want, and actually create a clear opposition to the Pubs. But, is anyone listening?

We made a BEEG mistake in letting the right define "family values". WE gotta take back compassion, in some way, with whatever word we can use.

In other words, we're going to have to have as much backbone as we have been demanding that our DEM politicians develope!

Kanary, mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore

[cryofan]

58. An exploration of Enya Hastings' ideas

One of the links I provided above leads to a couple of pages by someone named Enya Hastings. I dunno who Enya Hastings is, but his website http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/ is fantastic, and he is ALL OVER this turn-America-into-a-European-social-democracy meme that we have been discussing here.

One of his many secondary web pages is http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htm which gives some very practical instructions for how to take back our nation....

Here are some excerpts:



Globalization has been the greatest influence on American culture and politics since the 1970’s. In the past few decades, unregulated flow of capital into developing world factories has caused literally hundreds of millions of American manufacturing jobs to move to the developing world, especially China. Millions of service jobs are moving to India, where a billion poverty-stricken English-speaking peasants are happy to man the customer service phones of global corporations for a dollar a day. A billion hungry Chinese, a billion hungry Indians, a billion hungry South Americans and a billion hungry Africans are pulling down American quality of life to developing world levels, due to globalization. The result is an international race to the top for the capitalist 10% of the population who profit from globalization, and an international race to the bottom for the working 90% of all people. In both China and America, the ratio is the same: 10% are becoming fantastically rich while 90% are becoming incredibly poor as exploited wage slaves for global corporations.



The effects of globalization in America are obvious: America is becoming a New World banana republic in which aristocrats abuse their power through crony capitalism, while the majority of Americans are becoming uneducated, illiterate, underemployed wage slaves terrorized by threats of unemployment and starvation. The increasing gap between rich and poor, corporate criminal corruption, runaway inflation of CEO pay, total lack of adequate public services and health care insurance, and campaign finance corruption are all predictable symptoms of globalization and its polarization of society into a capitalist aristocrat caste minority and an oppressed slave caste majority.
....


What is to be done? We need a revolution, but violent revolution probably won’t work in an advanced nation in the new century. Communism is a proven failure throughout the world. Laissez faire capitalism is an unsustainable form of slavery. Only Social Democracy is a viable system, but even social democrat nations such as Sweden and Norway are under tremendous downward pressure on wages from globalization. The solution must be a new form of Social Democracy that can compete in the global marketplace even as it protects domestic quality of life and social programs—and it is a formidable challenge for social democratic nations to balance this new mixed economy. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that Social Democracy is the only viable solution, and therefore inevitable, even in America. Britain, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, Europe, Brazil, Venezuela, South America and other regions are already progressing toward Social Democracy, even as America is stuck in an anti-progressive Dark Age. America simply needs to catch up with the rest of the world, to end this American Dark Age, to enter a new era of progressive enlightenment.



How to vote: Always vote. In any American election, always vote for the democratic candidate regardless of personality, because that is the only way to defeat republicans. In a three-way race between a republican, a democrat and an independent, vote democrat. In a race between a democrat and a progressive independent, vote for the independent. But voting is not enough. Get involved in the community; spread the good news of progressive policy. Advocate Social Democracy, so that one day, America will grow to be as progressive as the rest of the civilized world.



Home: http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Lost in the shuffle

Of this interesting post is the fact that Americans don't want that kind of government. That's why we don't have it. It's not the governing elites, it's ordinary Americans.

[cryofan]

60. You need to read "Manufacturing Consent". BTW 70% of USians want.........

...universal health care.

Do yourself a favor--read the links I provided above in the thread. Then go check out the "Manufacturing Consent" video documentary from your library.

Americans are NEVER presented with the social democracy evidence and then ASKED whether that is what they want.

However, polls always show that almost 70% of Americans want universal health care. That is a foundation of the european social democracy.

Polls also show that Americans would like a 35 hour work week. That is a foundation of the european social democracy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. Polls show Americans want to win the lottery

Sit at home, eat bonbons and watch "Oprah." So what? When the polls add in the costs of things, that's when numbers drop.

Yes, probably still Americans would want universal healthcare thank God. But much of the rest of that post was pretty bizarre. Sending criminals on vacation? Giving killers their own apartments? That is not the kind of society Americans want or will pay for.

Everything costs money and Americans have this pesky nature of liking to spend their own paychecks.

[Sugarbleus]

63. ??

Wouldn't it be nice if ALL Americans HAD A PAYCHECK TO SPEND!!?

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. They don't and your point is?

[Sugarbleus]

62. Too true..

sadly. BUT there are enough people who need change and want change that we could make a difference, at least in little steps. LIke the Euro countries, nothing is perfect. Those folks have to get UP OFF THEIR BEHINDS AND INSIST that change be made, regardless of how the "other side" feels. I mean the Great Society isn't just going to fall down outta the sky.
One thing that I consider a wee bit of a problem is that we are an ENORMOUS country fully populated. It would/will be a big challenge but trying to change the system so that the whole society is benefitted is WORTH the effort.
Ever vigilant...

[cryofan]

64. Right! The BEST is ever the enemy of the GOOD

Juts because we cannot make it perfect, that does not mean we should not try to make it better.

We need to take it one step at a time, have firm goals, be ready to compromise, and be willing to negotiate. But first we have to make Americans aware that there IS another way....

[Kanary]

68. Can we say it has been tried? Where's the leadership?

I think we give up too easily. There is such fear in this country now, and so much discontent. Where are the leaders who will actually speak to that, instead of doing the compromising step, and just continuuing down the same path?

I, personally, don't think there has actually been a real effort yet to *LEAD* the American people to truly understand the issues, and to educate people in looking out for their best interests, rather than the interests of beeg bidness. It's been waay to many decades since we had a leader who knew how to speak to the population, and how to inspire and lead change.

Yeah, the citzenry is confused, and has been lead down the primrose path. They're not likely to come back of their own volition. How do we get leaders who can inspire us to join the rest of the civilized world?

Kanary

[camero]

69. I hate to say it, but a big reason we don't have it here

is because the American Leadership has never realy felt the physical power of the working classes. Except for the Great Depression, when they were openly calling for Communism, this was the only time we really have taken real steps toward a welfare state and it was done to keep a revolution from happening.

The leadership just thinks it was because of unemployment. So, if they just hoodwink the populace into believing that unemployment is below 10% that they can keep us from demanding change. That's why you always see the unemployment numbers undercounted and people being thrown out of the labor force. Plus it feeds the belief that those are out of the labor force because they don't want to work. Which is untrue.

Part of the reason that Europe has a welfare state is because they know the physical power of the working classes. They can shut the whole country down. Nothing less than that will bring change here.

I'm not advocating violence but I think a Nationwide strike would get them working on this pretty darn fast.

[Kanary]

71. Nationwide strike

I like the way you think, camero! In answer to the question posed in the opening post, and response to your post here, YES! I'm Ready To Rumble!! ^_^

I must, sadly, agree with you. The US people have allowed Beeg Bidness to rule. It's that danged allegiance to "rugged individualism" at the expense of any sort of cooperative sense of belonging to a greater whole. How to break that down?

As for an uprising... in a sense, that is what gangs are about. Unfortunately, it's aim is off, and is easily picked off by the Powers That Be.

I had hoped that cuts in welfare, etc would bring about this sort of uprising.... Once people get accustomed to having a certianly level of safety, taking that away should bring out a lot of anger. It may still happen, but so far I don't see it.

This is exactly why I"m so upset with Dems (including "progressives" right here!) ignoring the folx at the bottom. If there was energy and effort spent in organizing with people who are the most vulnerable and the most at risk, the resulting noise would very well have a big impact. Ignoring this segment of the population is one more shot to the Democratic foot.

Kanary

[cryofan]

72. yep, a nationwide strike would be a necessary first step to taking control

Think of it--a nationwide strike, organized through the internet. One day....just as a show of populist force. If we could pull that off, we would be on our way. How to do it?

[camero]

74. That's the kicker

Because first we would have to convince everyone that they aren't going to die with a week away from work and that the best way to get the priviliged classes to get them to do what you want is to hit them in the wallet.

A good example are the Isreali pilots that refused to bomb Palestine.
Well, it's the same thing with the American workforce. We are soldiers that do the leader's bidding. And when we stop doing their bidding, even a weeks loss of revenue and productivity would get the American Capitalists to capitulate. Because they rely on cash flow, not just wealth. They want more wealth. We take that away, then the ball is in our hands.

[cryofan]

75. how could we organize a one-day nationwide strike?

This strike would not be a media event, because that means they could co-opt. take over, and subvert such a movement.

I say we could start organizing this right now....right here

[camero]

76. Yeah, we could

A one day one would not do much damage to them, though. But you have to crawl before you walk, I suppose.

[cryofan]

77. exactly...a one-day solidarity strike would simply be a...

....psycological tool to show the participators and the non-participators that we can wield power....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Most Americans don't know anything about other countries

Some ridiculously small percentage even have a passport, and many have no interest in seeing other countries because"this is the greatest country in the world." When I taught college, I was dismayed at the number of students who turned down affordable opportunities to study abroad (they could use their financial aid from the college and sometimes even work).

One of my colleagues took a leave of absence and backpacked around the world with his wife. He reported that on the road, they found lots of Australians and Europeans and even Israelis, but he found almost no other Americans. When he came back, he urged his students to do the same, but they looked at him as if he was crazy.

One limiting factor for American college graduates is the fact that they're paying off loans. However, they could still join the Peace Corps or go teach English overseas.

But no, for many, the highest ambition is to get a job in some office park. Even if they have money, there is now a new obstacle to travel: fear. If you're not afraid of terrorism or anti-Americanism, there's always SARS. (I somehow got on the mailing list of a travel agency in Portland that begs people to ignore the stereotypes about "dangerous" and "hostile" foreign countries.)

No wonder Americans don't know how people live in the rest of the world. When they do find out the truth, it's often a shock.

The husband of one of my cousins was quite a Reaganite in the 1980s and always railing about those "chicken shit" Europeans and their no nukes demonstrations. However, when his wife's brother, a retired military officer who decided to retire in Germany, persuaded them to come for a visit, this former hawk returned to the States saying, "I understand now why they don't want war. In some ways, they have it nicer than we do."

Americans put up with lousy health insurance, expensive college, two-week vacations, and stingy family leave policies because they think everyone lives the way they do or worse. They hear stories of the hardships that drove Somali or Guatemalan immigrants to this country and decide that they're pretty lucky (which they are in comparison to most Third World people).

I once heard a talk by a priest who had worked with Central American refugees. He told of the political and economic misery they had suffered, and one of the questioners asked, "Why did the peasants suddenly start rebelling in the 1970s when they've been miserable since the Spanish conquest?"

The priest's answer was surprising. "The most revolutionary thing that happened in Central America was the arrival of the transistor radio. Before that, peasants rarely traveled more than walking distance from their villages, so while they knew they were miserable, they thought the rest of the world lived the same way. Cheap transistor radios brought them news of the outside world for the first time."

I wish there were something equivalent to the Central Americans' cheap transistor radio to bring U.S. residents to greater awareness of what is possible in a modern society. According to conservatives, public schools are doomed to failure, public transit cannot attract riders, and businesses cannot operate if the workers are treated well. Yet other countries produce better-educated elementary school graduates, have good to excellent public transit, and have thriving economies while mandating benefits for workers.

But the powers that be do not want large numbers of Americans knowing this.

[Kanary]

73. Ignorance of other cultures is Huge

You are soooo right. This "We're Number One", and "We're the Best" limits our view in a disastrous way.

Even if people don't want to or can't afford to travel (and that travel must be done "on the cheap", or the only view is a very limited one), at least there needs to be a value placed on learning about other cultures. Not in the sense of looking down on them, but as a way of broadening what we really know of other people and their views and their cultures. We are sooo sadly lacking. I've often said that if there are to be required courses at all, then certainly Anthropology should be at the top of any list of required courses! What better way to learn to stand back and see your own culture in a more unbiased way, and learn to look at, and evaluate, our negatives as well as the positives.

"No wonder Americans don't know how people live in the rest of the world. When they do find out the
truth, it's often a shock."

So very true, especially for those who have been so successfully insulated.

*Because* I had a more open background, thanks to some Anthropology and other courses, when I went to Greece, I was prepared to see something besides what I was accustomed to. As a result, I felt no shock when I arrived there, and felt quite at home and comfortable. The *shock* happened when I arrived back "home", and saw so clearly how much more dangerous it was to be here, how much more risk I was taking just being on the street, how alone I was when I was ill or in need of something, and how much more frantic day-to-day living is. Just to name a few differences. I felt "homesick" for quite a while after my return, and kept dreaming of somehow being able to go back. *THat* was the shock, indeed.

Kanary

[snoochie]

70. That is where I want my country headed

Not towards fake family values, but real family values.

Not towards increasing wars against the people (drug war, crime war - which just makes professional criminals - there's no rehabilitation, etc.), but towards implementing policies and programs that enrich the people.

What is this nation if not the sum total of her people? What does it say about her if she lets so many kids live in poverty? If she allows so many innocents to rot in jail, despite proof of their innocence? If she allows the workforce to have no family life to speak of, because work dominates all? (Most HR firms tell employees not to expect to work for 10 years at any company, instead they'll have to keep hopping from job to job... is 2 weeks vacation enough? Most jobs won't even give you that much until you've worked there for a year!)

People say Americans don't want these programs. Well just like Kucinich, how can you say they don't want it if they know next to nothing about it?

Lydia Leftcoast makes a great point... if we want this change, we must become the transistor radios for our countrymen. We must show them there is a better way to live than as serfs to be exploited for the enrichment of the few.

Yes, a nationwide strike would do it but until you convince enough people of the necessity there will be no solidarity.

We must elect Kucinich. We must heal this country.

[ACK]

78. Workfare not welfare.. Dukakis had it right .. a plan for real reform

Listen working class people hate welfare. It is sad and stupid but true.

But you can't explode the number of homeless families out in the street. You cannot continue to throw the baby out with the bathwater and pushing limits to welfare like the Repukes want.

What do you do?

1. Put people back to work on infrastructure projects in their areas of the country. You destroy one of the great myths and points of hatred for welfare and at the same time the infrastructure of the country is made stronger.

2. Connect people to jobs. There are places in my area of the country where employers are having problems filling jobs. The people that would work those jobs simply cannot afford to live in those areas. Right next door, there are areas where lots of people do not have jobs. Why? They cannot get to the jobs. Work with businesses and get the people to the jobs available in their areas of the country.

3. Job retraining. Work with business interests and schools all over the country to get people trained and certified to work the jobs available in their area of the country. This takes coordination and care but there are plenty of good paying mechanical jobs to use just one example but many people cannot afford to take advantage of the tech schools and get trained. That is just one example as well. A pool of employers would pay and the employee would work off the costs at a low rate. That way they are not tied to one employer but they are working there own way through. This also works for nurses and a half a dozen other in need professions for many communities.

4. A daycare solution. Too many women cannot work because that would literally mean abandoning their children. How long can this go on? A low level tax on corporate business can easily pay for the supplies and buildings for daycare and the caretakers would be people on the welfare system who get trained and certified to be daycare professionals. The system could quickly start to pay for part of its own keep with discounted rates to lower income and standard rates for other families. After all, in many rural areas there is very little choice in daycare.

Tell me where I have it wrong. Make suggestions. But do not discount the hatred of the system. We need to look at programs objectively and reform them accordingly or the Republicans will sell them off and destroy them.

Edited for talking about a pool of employers and not tying down the employee to one employer etc..etc..

[camero]

79. Not bad, but you should read cryofan's links above

The things you have stated are all a part of the welfare state. I would only add that an employer based retraining system would not work, as you would tie the employee down to the employer.

And the recipient should be able to choose the line of work instead of just being pushed into a trade school. Some are more gifted than others.

[Kanary]

80. So many of these "schemes"

are perilously close to a form of slavery.

If all the people who come up with these grandiose ideas would be able to put themselves in someone else's shoes, and even begin to think what it would be like to be in the position of those they are planning for, I can't help but think that thre would be a lot of changes made to these schemes.

Treating people like soulless automatons does not further our goal of a civilized nation.

Kanary

[camero]

83. I agree.

But government make-work and job retraining are a part of the welfare state. Your main point stands and is a good one. That workfare is also a form of slavery in the way repubs use it.

[ACK]

84. There has to be a better way...

People do not just want a check no matter how the Republicans try to use welfare as some race-code issue.

I am talking about work projects (FDR tried to turn people into soulless automatons? I don't think so.), job re-training, transportation support (people can actually get to the jobs in the burbs from rural and urban areas) and daycare support.

I got too detailed I admit and the idea of tying an employee to a single employer is too close to wage-slavary and I edited that out.

grandoise ... huh? If we do not figure out a better way then the Repubs will chunk the great society straight down the great big toilet. Oh ... wait a sec ... they have been doing that for years now. Forget that.

Edited for clarity.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. You are wrong about FDR

The CCC did some amazingly creative things with the arts. The reality then was that many of those out of work simply didn't have that many skills. Simply giving them menial jobs was fine -- then.

Now we need to train a more modern workforce as well as put them to work. However, even then, there will be many who simply can't or won't muster the advanced skills.

[ACK]

86. You misread my post ... I think we are on the same page.

The person before said that such a plan was like slavery and created automatons.

I have the FDR icon for a reason. I realize the CCC and other projects worked great wonders for the infrastructure of this nation with artists painting murals and other very creative projects.

I meant to be asking the person I was replying to whether or not she thought that FDR created soulless automatons with the works projects.

I have always believed that does not have to be "make work". Work projects can build the bedrock and the infrastructure of a great nation. Look at the overall results of the FDR projects and the economicall benefit of those.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. I apologize

I read the other comment in the parens as yours. You are right, we are on the same page.

I am a big FDR fan and the CCC was among his greatest achievements. (That will amaze my lack of fan club around here.)

[ACK]

89. Its cool doing a lot of necessary editing today

I made the re-training idea sound like a indentured servitude I was typing so fast and in and out of context.

Then I did not put qualifiers into my other comment you replied to.

Eeek. The sad part is that I have been wanted to get in on a good deep discussion like this as opposed to another candidate bashing thread.

And I much it up.

Read my original post with the four ideas and please comment though.

[Kanary]

90. I can see that you are trying to hear

and if you have read my earlier posts, you will know that I'm discouraged to the point of hopelessness. (That is not an invitation for advice or citicism... it's a fact stated to increase understanding.)

Given the two above facts, I am trying to respond accordingly, and I hope that you can understand my sense of futuility.

The big thing that bothers me about your proposal, is (besides what I said above about not standing in the shoes of those affected) is that it leaves out those who simply don't fit into a concept of "workfare", for one reason or another. Since it may be the minority, I guess I should just shrug and say, "Oh well, it's an improvement." But, if you were in my shoes, and one of those being left out or discounted, I think you'd find it difficult to do that, also. Y'know, when it's your own life, it becomes important.

People *do* have a big need to contribute. Even those who are physically unable. For some of us, that contribution comes in the form of knowing a situation from the inside, rather than from some theoretical standpoint. I would say that is a rather important contribution, wouldn't you? In other words, when you leave out the perspective of those most affected, you are imposing a stricture on them that they didn't commit to. It's very much like imposing a form of government on another country, just because we think "It's for their own good". That's a form of discounting, and dooms the whole project to at least partial failure.

Any old-fashioned organizer knows that the first step in organizing a neighborhood is to first talk to all the neighbors and find out what their vision of the problem is, and what they see as solutions. In other words, *THEY* become the focus of the problem-solving, not some theory that dismisses them as mere game pieces to be moved around.

Again, I can hear that you are trying to figure out a better solution. I would suggest that it's not going to get any better until/unless the people affected are brought into the solution-making.

Kanary

[ACK]

96. Understood

I lived in rural GA. It is not just the urban areas that are impacted in the loss of jobs debate.

I understand that there are people that are left out of any solution. I attempted (not I say it was an attempt) to include points for many situations.

It is also why I mention daycare which is a huge problem for families on welfare. Who the hell looks after the children?

You are correct in the statement that the people impacted need a voice in this debate.

The people in my old community were in a rural area with lots of holes in the job communities. I knew a number of people on welfare, food stamps and other programs. The majority of these folks just wanted a chance to work a job where they would earn enough to support their families.

In GA, there was a HOPE program where many people for the first time had the opportunity to train for jobs like nurses aids and mechanic positions that they never had the chance for before. It was incredible to see the energy in the eyes of people for the first time in their lifes had the glimmer of real hope for their own future. I taught those same people. That is why I emphasized re-training a great deal but I admit in the wrong way and I edited that.

I also understand that in the place I live right now. Employers cannot find enough people to fill the jobs. Employees cannot live in these areas because the costs are too high. There has to be a way to connect people to the jobs. Even if my way is not the best.

I apologize I really do not mean to try and completely re-argue my points.

But I am not coming from the gilded halls of academia. I have lived and worked and was a clerk and a cook to many of these same people we are talking about.

[ACK]

81. Good points and I did read the link above

Would it help to give people a choice of professions or employers to choose from?

Also, would it help that they pay back a pool of employers at a slow rate that way they are not tied down to one employer. I defintely do not want to suggest some wage-slave system.

I just think that re-training and FDR style work programs are better than the current system. Also, please do not forget the daycare issue.

I was just trying to think of a way to include re-training without raising taxes like mad.

Yes, it is all part of a welfare state. BUT, we have to re-frame the language of debate beyond the old stereotypical languages. That is why you use the word workfare not welfare.

[camero]

87. A case of semantics, but yeah, you're right on that

It reframes the debate. I think the gov. should do job training because any employer based system could be exploited. Such as employers charging interest when the employee leaves before a certain date.

Trucking does have a form of this system and people are tied to thier employers for a year. And they are treated badly in this year because the employer knows they can't leave unless they want whole paychecks taken away.

I agree about day care and transportation subsidies for work. That's why I didn't comment on them.

Our taxes are among the lowest in the industrialized world. But the middle and lower classes pay more than the upper class in total taxes(i should specify that before some dodo comes on and rants about the federal income tax, which is a sham argument). They will be made more progressive at some point.

[camero]

95. Ok, you made me think of something else

On the day care issue, alot of people on welfare are single parents.
A mass day care program would have kids being raised by day care personnel and not parents.

I think for some parents a good idea would be if they want, would be to train and pay them to home-school thier children in the lower grades. This would help to ease school overcrowding, give parents a skill, and let parents raise thier children. The internet could link the home to the school system so the system could see that children are being educated.

Not the end all be all but just one option.

[ACK]

97. A good option

It is a good idea up to a point though I am usually not a huge fan of homeskooling (sic).

I just know that I hear a special on this almost every other week where some kid was abandoned because their mom had to go and work and could not find care.

It should never be a choice between providing for your family and the health and safety of your children.

[camero]

98. I agree

It should just be an option for those who want to go that route. I don't think it's the whole answer but may be a good idea.

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. Work

FDR understood that work means a lot more than a paycheck to most people. It is how they identify themselves. I am a ... police officer, firefighter, teacher, dockworker, etc. It gives us pride in achievement and self worth. To pay people simply to NOT work (beyond unemployment where you are job hunting) is ridiculous.

Certainly, you pay people who CAN'T work, but paying those who can is bad for you and them. If they don't have the skills -- language, training, resume, etc. -- teach them. That alone would give jobs to a bunch of talented folks as trainers.

1. Infrastructure -- I wildly agree. But more than just roads, parks and dams, I mean inner cities. Hell, just cleaning them up, tearing down abandoned buildings, etc. would make the inner cities better places to live.

2. Transportation -- This is a flaw of our car culture. The easy solution is for employers who need lots of less-experienced workers to put their businesses in enterprise zones in cities. Failing that, transportation programs are indeed a good idea.

3. Job retraining. -- This can't stop at just work skills. Many people lack the skills needed to GET work. They don't know how to dress for a job, how to act, how to create a resume, how to interview, etc. The school system failed them here. This program has to pick up the slack.

4. A daycare solution. -- This also creates jobs for people who like to work with kids.

5. Those who can't work. (I added this.) -- Make sure this is true. Some who can't work have severe disabilities. Perhaps they could work better from home. Perhaps they need a better job match. Or maybe they could do telephone support. Help these people, don't just process them.

I was accused of being negative today because I tend to poke holes in things I see that are wrong.

Guess what, I don't see anything wrong here. And, even more, I don't see this proposal getting too much right wing opposition. It should be painted as a bipartisan way to fix the problem. It combines the mystique of FDR with the right wing desire to prevent people for getting something for nothing.

[ACK]

99. For someone who is "negative" that is a good positive response

Thanks!! Good points to think about especially for the enterprise zones.

Don't forget the rural areas as well though. Enterprise zones for rural areas are just as important.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Transportation

Your typical urban transit system is built around the notion of getting people to work downtown, period, not for making it possible to live without a car. Rural and outer suburban areas typically have no public transit at all.

The need to own a car, even if it is a half-rusted "beater," is a tremendous drain on the finances of a poor household, since such vehicles tend to break down frequently, leading to 3-figure repair bills.

There is no reason why rural towns and counties couldn't run some kind of circulating van service in poverty-stricken areas, so that the poor wouldn't need a car to get to work or do their grocery shopping. There wouldn't be enough passengers for a full-sized bus, but a van of the type used for airport shuttles might be just the thing.

[ACK]

101. Like a hotel shuttle service?

Very cool.

Postitive debate in the GD. OMG, I think I am going to faint.

I live in Northern VA. Its where I work.

Employers cannot fill jobs in certain businesses and there is no way in hell that someone working a working class job can live here.

This would fill a gap for employers and employees alike.

[Kanary]

104. Sounds very much like resorts in Colorado

Housing costs have gone through the roof (thanks, in part, to rich celebrities), and the average worker can't afford to even rent. The hotels and ski areas need workers, but nobody can afford to live there, and commuting long distances in blizzards isn't ideal, to put it mildly.

Our capitalist system at work. Sounds like you have much the same situation. It's all so silly.

Kanary

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. There is a free market solution to that one

Clearly, the resorts go out of business if they have no staff. And if the distances are too great for people to commute, then smart employers will find a way to get employees to live closer to the location. Perhaps they should either fund staff housing or pay more so people can afford to live there.

Either way, that one is fairly straightforward.

[camero]

108. no, you cannot tell people where they can live.

A better idea would be to either subsidize it or use a cab service.

[ACK]

109. There is already subsidized housing in some parts of my area

But do you know how much it costs to actually move?

People new to the area go into that housing but not enough to fill the gaps in employment for entry-level stuff.

[cryofan]

110. but only for single mothers and kids

not a real welfare state as found in Europe.....

[ACK]

111. Thought it was based on income

Might be wrong.

[Kanary]

117. Income, but still have to have more than what most have

That's so hard to put in one line! Sometimes this subject heading is a real pain!

Subsidized housing has so many rules, and so many are left out that is has become basically a huge pain in the touche. Also, in most places there is also a waiting list of 2 or 3 years. I guess you live in a tent while waiting.

Are any of you aware that, with the current shortage of low-income housing, that over 130,000 units of Section 8 housing will be discontinued next year? I may be one of those cut, and therefore, will disappear. It's so wonderful having this hanging over one's head. And, you don't need to jump for joy, Muddle... I already know you'll be glad for me to be gone. Yes, I love you, too.

This whole thread illustrates the point that there are so many people will opinons and ideas they want to implement, who really don't know what the whole subject entails. It's complex, it's horrible, and it's in a crisis.

Kanary

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. We are not talking about federally subsidized housing here

We are talking about one situation -- resorts that don't have enough employees. The resorts don't need federal involvement to fix their problem. They can and should fix it themselves.

And, for the record, no matter how much we might disagree, I would never wish you to lose a roof over your head. In fact, quite the opposite.

[Kanary]

130. *I* am

Not that it matters to you....

[Muddleoftheroad]

135. Then we are talking past one another

And that accomplishes little in my experience.

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. You missed my point

My point is that employers should be driven to ENCOURAGE people to live there because otherwise they don't have businesses.

That means:

* Higher pay;
* Rent subsidies;
* Housing creation if there is nothing affordable, etc.

This is what they call benign self interest.

Even cab service does not sound good because of the weather issue for travel, so I am back saying they have to either supplement housing or provide it outright.

[camero]

113. And how are employers supposed to do that?

With threats of a lost job, of course. and employers cannot do rent subsidies ( oh, real cost effective) or build houses for thier employees (looks too much like slavery, as a matter of fact, plantation owners did house thier slaves, am I right?)


Boneheaded idea, think some more. Stop focusing so much on the "free market". It's not a solution for everything.

[Muddleoftheroad]

115. No, quite the reverse

Let's restate the problem here. We have a high-priced fancy resort area that has problems attracting employees because of the cost of living there and the difficulties of commuting.

So there are no jobs to lose. The employees who do show up already are filling a need. The employers here are trying to bring in NEW employees.

To accomplish that, they need to give them a place to live. Rent subsidies are a common solution. (Even the federal government increases pay based on cost of living in more expensive areas.) And they ARE cost effective. This is a high-end resort. It is easy to pass additional costs onto the tourists. But I don't know enough about the situation to assess whether the housing supply is sufficient in any case.

If it is not, that leaves it up to the employers to fill the need somehow.

The last part baffles me. An employer who would build housing for employees seems not plantation like but more enlightened. He/she would acknowledge a problem and solve it for the workers. In fact, since this is likely a problem for the whole area, the employers could get together and solve this overall.

And no, the free market is not a solution to everything. But when there is ample money floating around, a solution can and will be found.

[camero]

116. so, employers also act as landlords?

You should just stop right there because you are digging yourself into a rhetorical hole that you're not going to get out of. So, they also lose thier job if they can't make the rent. Even if thier pay doesn't cover the rent. Or they lose thier place if they are not "productive" enough.

Think again :eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. No hole at all here

Rent subsidies are again, an easy solution. Why do you reject it?

They can't just teleport people in.

And yes, it is not uncommon for housing to come with a job. The apartment industry often includes rental units for people who work there as just one example.

And yes, when they lose their job, they are given a set amount of time to relocate. If this was done as an area-wide solution, they would simply lose their subsidy and have the opportunity to find new work.

[camero]

121. Big hole, shut yo mouth

Employer subsidized housing is not the way to go. Because you cannot tell people where to live and base thier livlihoods and existance on the same place.

That is slavery. Or don't you like the working class having freedom, hmmm? :eyes:

[Kanary]

124. REpugs *LIKE* company towns, camero...

Keeps 'em all in their place, y'know?

I think it's a lost cause, once the RW comes in the door...

Got any good ideas where we can carry on a good conversation?

Kanary

[Muddleoftheroad]

129. Not a company town

Just a town that needs workers who currently can't afford to live there.

It makes entire sense for the employers to fix that problem. Otherwise they go out of business.

[camero]

149. Ok, an idea

Government can concentrate affordable housing around or near areas of employment. And help with the moving costs to go to an area where the employment is.

[Muddleoftheroad]

127. You are not telling anyone where to live

You are providing them with an option. Since the commute is long and hazardous, it is likely many will appreciate this idea. Further, because of proximity, some might be drawn for the resort itself and, again a wise employer should do what he/she can to make use of the resort a possibility.

It is not slavery to give people options. It is enlightened management that sees a problem and seeks to solve it.

This is much the same reason why many employers also support strong schools as a means of bringing in workers into the area and keeping them.

[redqueen]

138. From what I've seen...

employers already do this. Cruise ships, for one. And your example is a resort town. That's two.

I think the only reason they'd do it is if they were forced to by their circumstances.

[Muddleoftheroad]

139. Exactly

Scarcity. Either scarcity of employees in general or workers with a specific skill set -- used to be tech people, but it's always good salespeople.

I think some of the confusion of this thread is I was addressing a specific example raised by another post. Not making a general position that employers should always provide housing.

[camero]

166. Yeah, know how much time they get by law? 24 hrs.

:eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

167. Usually, it is contractual -- at least a month

I know an old building manager of mine got two months notice AND had the option of staying in her place at the normal rate after that.

[camero]

168. here's some more

http://www.cses.com/q/_disc3/0000082f.htm

In the Grand Canyon/Tusayan area there is no private housing, all housing is owned by the employers. Rent is taken out of the employees check. All apartments (housing) are shared units, 2 employees per bedroom, meaning 4 employees per 2 bedroom apartment (in many cases). Employers say that there are different rules/exemptions for this area because if you dont work for them (by quiting or termination) you cant stay/rent any longer and have 24 hrs to vacate the premises.

[redqueen]

114. This reminds me of ... Ford, was it?

Was he the one who had the Pinkertons? For when the workers got too uppity?

I know he had spies who would make sure the employees didn't do anything he didn't approve of (such as drinking). Being the provider of both the workers' livelihood and housing, he could control them and did.

I should have paid more attention in history... time to go re-learn everying (again!)

[Muddleoftheroad]

119. Oh, all businessmen bad, all workers good

Sorry, that mantra is stupid.

There is a simple equation here. No workers, no businesses. No businesses, no profit. And, since there seems to be lots of profit here, then there is profit motive to ensure a sufficient number of workers.

Most employers don't give a damn what their workers do outside the job as long as they show up and do a good job. Frankly, it's more hassle than most bosses care to deal with.

[Kanary]

120. Ah! You Got It!

[Muddleoftheroad]

123. If you read the whole post

I do indeed.

[Kanary]

126. No need. You have the conservative line down guuud.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. Not hardly

I have the former poor person line down good. I was dirt damn poor and if an employer had offered me housing (even in a cold place like the resort) AND a job, I would have taken it.

In fact, I would have done a lot more to get out of SE D.C.

[camero]

125. I'm gonna go do some research to shut him up

Because that's what seems to happen when he is confronted with facts.

[Kanary]

136. Come on back, camero.... RW unaffected by logic

Hey! Come back and reply to some of my posts, you! :)

There are some things that are hopeless causes, y'know? :)

Kanary

[camero]

146. Got one

http://www.mayaparadise.com/ufc1e.htm

United Fruit brought tangible benefits to the countries where it operated, but also brought problems or perpetuated existing ones.

United Fruit staunchly opposed any attempts at the formation of unions. It would abandon entire areas if unionism started to gain a foothold. When it abandoned an area it would tear down the housing and schools it had built leaving the area destitute. The company also practiced institutionalized racism. In company towns like Morales/Bananera and Puerto Barrios non-whites were forced to yield right-of-way to whites. The whole concept of a "banana republic" was exemplified by the conditions in Guatemala from 1920 through 1944. The government worked very closely with United Fruit to maintain the highly stratified, fiefdom-like social structure of Guatemala so as to provide a plentiful supply of cheap labor. UFCO didn't create this social structure but worked to amplify it and perpetuate it.


There is what "company housing" get you. Sorry it took so long.

[Muddleoftheroad]

152. You missed our follow up while you were gone

Again, I was speaking of the one specific case brought up by another poster. I am not advocating widespread employer housing.

[camero]

155. It still wouldn't work

Cause all the employer has to do is get in a harrump about tax rates, zoning, etc., and then you have EMPTY housing. The "free" market is not the answer to everything. It only takes us back to fuedalism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

160. All an employer has to do is go out of business

In that case.

Again, we are focusing on one specfic instance. High-end customers, lack of workers. If an employer doesn't solve the problem, he goes out of business. End of story.

[camero]

163. Then he can pay paople more or recruit wider.

He should not own the house the employee lives in.

[Muddleoftheroad]

165. He doesn't have to own it, though I see nothing wrong with that

But pay is not necessarily enough. Even doubling the wages might not be enough for workers to afford to live in an area. Or there simply might not be enough housing.

That calls for other solutions.

[camero]

169. yes, government

or developers, not employers.

[Kanary]

156. Good example.

Even less horrendous examples, here in this country, make life awful for workers.

Those who have studied history know this. It's been done. And done.

Business is there to make a profit, not only for their fat CEOs, but for their stockholders, who do no noticeable work. They're not in business to provide for their workers. Maybe in the days of "It's A Good Life" there were those sorts of companines, but..... pretty rare now. Giving business free reign and even assistance to get into this sort of thing is throwing the workers to the wolves.

Thanks for the input!

Kanary

[redqueen]

134. Ah, the strawman... nice!

Sorry, but that won't fly. I just posted another thread topic about a company whose bosses saw fit to give the employees $1K for each year of service as a Christmas bonus. So no, I never said all businessmen were bad nor that all workers were good.

All I did was point out the history of what you're advocating. Hit a nerve, did I?

The point is, it's been done. You, like bush, seem to want to look to business for the voluntary solution to all of life's problems. It won't happen. The simple fact is that the company I mentioned earlier is one in a million. The type that would run it like Ford are the more ubiquitous variety.

Think about it... if the majority of businessmen really belived in what you were saying, wouldn't we already have a living wage?

Very simple logic. But the empirical evidence puts to rest any suspicion you might have that many businesses consider the long term.

[Muddleoftheroad]

137. Sorry, but that is the default setting for many around here

There is both good history and bad to many things. It depends on where and how you look. I am not advocating clapboard housing of the coal camps here and I doubt seriously anyone would be drawn to work in the Colorado resorts for such a thing.

I am advocating that a business better do something to attract workers or it will go out of business. That is common sense.

And no, there is NOT a voluntary solution to all of life's problems. But this specific situation is different. It has a limited workforce and a high-end clientele. That makes for a recipe that every business can grasp.

Most work situations (especially for more menial jobs) are much different. They occur in metro areas with a much larger employment pool. There, employers have no need to pay top dollar for jobs or incentivize workers because scarcity is not an issue.

In this SPECIFIC case, scarcity IS an issue.

[redqueen]

142. No problem...

I see your point... but surely you see that the case you're describing represents a very small minority of the situations employers would find themselves in.

So yes, this would work for cruise lines, resorts, etc. But the vast majority of employers will not do this.

[Muddleoftheroad]

144. Again, we are in agreement

I know the Washington area has this problem as well. They are making more of a push for transportation solutions rather than inexpensive housing near the work corridors.

[redqueen]

148. Transportation is key, yes

However have you noticed how few cities implement good public transportation systems? No reason for that situation, is there?

New Yorkers and Chicagoans (?) are very lucky.

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. The reasons

Cost is first. Mass transit is expensive. The next reason is that most Americans are in love with their cars and want roads, not subways, light rail, etc. Next, most urban areas are fairly built up right now and no one wants big anything built that cuts through their neighborhoods.

[redqueen]

158. How quickly would that change if ...

we stopped subsidizing oil companies with our taxpayer money?

:)

I know I, as an environmentally minded person, LOVE rail systems. Dallas has one started and I love it love it love it. They can't expand it fast enough for me, and I use it every time I can. :D

[Muddleoftheroad]

161. Our tax system created the sprawl problem

It will take a long time to solve it, if ever.

But we can and should work to do so gradually. But I think the biggest roadblock is not cost or even habit, it is people not wanting to have mass transit pushed through their neighborhoods.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

180. It takes less money to build a mile of mass transit

than a mile of freeway, and people don't like freeways coming through their neighborhoods, either.

[Muddleoftheroad]

102. True

The problem occurs more in urban areas. It is hard to organize a van service across a distributed metro area, get the word out, schedule, etc.

It's probably easier in a rural area, but it wouldn't be cheap. A van can carry probably about eight passengers or so. That means one person's job is just to ensure eight people get to work and home each day. It is probably easier and cheaper to subcontract this out to a cab company. That way, the van could be used for other things in non-rushhour time periods.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. It's not just eight people

Not everyone starts work at the same time, and the poor often work nights, so I'd envision a 24-hour service, or at least one that ran 6AM to midnight on the hour.

The 6, 7, and 8AM runs would take day-shift people to work, while the 3,4, and 5PM runs would take day-shift people home and swing-shift people to their jobs. The late night runs would take swing-shift people home and graveyard-shift people to their jobs.

Midday runs would take elderly and other homebound people shopping or visiting or to doctor's appointments. Evening runs would allow day workers to shop or go to a movie.

(One thing I've noticed in Japan, with its superb public transportation, is that midday trains and buses are full of elderly people who are just going visiting or to have lunch with friends. Letting people get around for other than utilitarian purposes is humane and promotes good mental health.)

[Muddleoftheroad]

106. We are pretty close on this one

I'm just afraid that it wouldn't be well utilized other times a day. So, I think the easiest thing is to outsource the actual transportation portion until you know how well it catches on.

[Kanary]

103. more than downtown transportation

You bring up some good points. This is such a hard issue!

On the one hand, getting us all out of our cars is sooo very important... we've enough wars for oil.

On the other hand, as you bring up, there just *aren't* good alternatives. The list goes on and on, but I'll reply to what you have suggested...a van for public transportation.

Besides the issue that waiting for *any* public transportation takes a lot of time, and time is not something that poor people have any more of than rich people, vans still require subsidy, so that is going to have to be supported by the tax-paying public.

I have an elderly friend in a small town, who is legally blind and cannot drive. I was going up to help him about once a week, and some neighbors periodically pitch in to give him a ride, or take his dog to the vet, etc. However, the single biggest help to him was when the county decided to institute a "call-a-ride" program. It's open to all, but is particularly helpful to people like him, who are elderly and isolated. He has to call at least a day in advance, and made arrangements, and if it requires a change of van, it gets complicated. However, it has given him very much a sense of independence, and ability to go out on his own without feeling like he is imposing on others.

The problem is, the charge for the riders doesn't even come close to paying for the service. It is a tax-payer program, andd therefore subject to the whims of the tax-paying public. It can go away at any time -- the next time there are cuts that need tobe made in the budget. That doesn't make for a secure situation.

BTW, this van system was brought into being by the advocating work of a group of elderly men who call themselves "The Curmudgeons". :) They saw a need, and worked to fill it. I applaud them for that. It has certainly been a blessing to my friend. I just see it as a vulnerable program.

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

122. Work fetishism?

I really think that the reason there are so many poor people in the US is this irrational obsession that everybody should work. Actually, the long term unemployment and work participation rates are not significantly lower in Scandinavia than in the USA.

The problem is that every country have a surplus of labour. If everyone should work, the result will be a lot of underpaid jobs, because the market can`t absord all the labour if you have a high minimum wage. Because some people are on welfare and disability in Norway, we can have checkoutgirls who earn around $12 an hour.

[Muddleoftheroad]

131. Yes, everyone who CAN work, should

That does not include people who are unable to do so.

We do not have a surplus of labor, we have a lack of jobs. There is plenty to do and we are indeed paying people. The problem is we are not asking anything of them, nor are we training them to do anything. That is bad for all concerned.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

141. In practice

It is close to impossible to determine for certain who are fit for work and who aren`t. It is obvious that many of the homeless people around the world aren`t fit for work. Making a certain diagnosis on both physical and certainly mental conditions can be extremly difficult.

Also, trainig won`t solve all problems. Here in Norway we clearly see that if you let anyone who which get access to higher education, you will get a growing group of people who can`t get a job they are qualified for, but who are regarded as "overqualified" for simpler positions.

[Kanary]

150. Hi PeeWeeTheMadman!

Welcome to DU!!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast:

Really good to have you here, and look forward to hearing your perspective!

Kanary

[cryofan]

145. I think you missed one of the main points in the original link above

One of the main ideas was that we are working TOO MUCH. We need to work LESS. Having leisure time and lots of it is a Good Thing.
We should organize our govt so that it has as a primary goal the provision of greatly increased leisure time for its citizens. Also, a minimum income for those who are not working, within reasonable limits, and of course universal health and day care. And heavily subsidized housing for those who make less money; also tuition free college. That is what that original post it mainly about. But we have to fight for it, and put aside some of our animal/simian/caveman instincts.

[Kanary]

159. Um, not so sure those instincts are animal or caveman

I think animals take care of their own better than we do!

I agree with your point, and will add some things that may fit in here.

As for the animals..... most of the big predators spend most of their lives asleep, or napping. What a life, eh? Very little of their time is actually spent looking for food or dens, etc.

OK, so that's not important, because we're so much better than the animals.. :)

Anthropologists have determined that most so-called "primitive" societies... the ones we consider to have worked themselves to death, spent approximately 20% of their time providing for their needs. What an awful life, eh? :) Of course, that time would vary by seasons..... a farming people would spend more time during the growing season, and less during the winter, for example.

Makes us look rather sillly. :)

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

162. Primitive societies

I actually wrote a post on this topic last weekend.

The problem is that the RW has falsified history, creating a "natural capitalism" that never existed! Societies were extremly egalitarian all the way up to the first kings and priests in Sumer and Egypt. Even the first agricultural societes were organized with communal land ownership, a practice still alive among indians in Mexico to this day!

The truth is that society before the state, was much more like the ideal society of Karl Marx than Adam Smith! This kind of argument can actually unhinge much of the arguments of the RW, in that unequality and class are NOT natural to humans, but introduced thanks to property rights, which are the most radical "state intervention" in human history!

[Kanary]

171. Egalitarian Societies

Where is the post your wrote, do you remember the name of the thread? I'd really like to read it!

You are soooo right about "natural capitalism" never having existed. I grew up in the western US, and it's clear not only that the "ancietn" Indian societies living in the many ruins in the west were egalitarian, but the modern-day Pueblos retain much of that same egalitarin model to this day.

Of course, we won't mention that most of the egalitarian societies were matrilineal and matriarchal. No sense in disturbing the RW, right? :)

Yes, egalitarian *is* natural to humans.... they were smart - they knew at a very deep level that they depended on each other. It's so interesting that the middle and even lower classes buy into the myths perpetuated by the upper classes, which are against their own best interests.

The last sentence of your post is great.... I'm saving it.

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

182. I couldn`t find it

Unfortunantly, the thread has already dissapeared down the list, and I haven`t got access to the search function.

I have used this argument in norwegian debates quite a lot, and I still haven`t got one single serious answer.

The practical implication foremost is that a nightwatcherstate is NOT a neutral state!

[Muddleoftheroad]

164. Here I disagree

I have no problem with Americans wanting to work. It is a big part of who we are.

Yes, leisure time is nice and if someone wants to give me five weeks off instead of two, that would be grand. But I am not willing or interested in moving to Europe for the difference.

As for the rest, I think you and I might disagree on specifics, but agree with the general thrust of the argument. Personally, I would rather help people get jobs, training them and providing them with work, but even so, they must have healthcare, etc.

[Kanary]

133. Good point, PeeWee - Live with reality

instead of some vision of what "should" be, or what "used" to be.

You bring up a great point, and I'd like to hear you enlarge on it.

Thanks!

Kanary

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

140. I will try

I`m not used to writing in english, but I shall try.

As I see it, the highest goal in society should be "most hapiness for the most people", I am an utiltiarian.

One fact that many people forget about utilitarianism is that the use you get from a dollar bill, decreases for each additional dollarbill you get. A homeless man will be full of joy if someone gives him a hundread dollar bill. A lawyer hovewer wouldn`t even notice a hundread dollar bill extra. From this can be deducted that if you "take" a hundre doller bill from a lawyer og doctor, and gives it to a homeless person, the joy experienced by the homeless person will be greater than the loss from the person the money is taken. Add to this the point that as long as more people are working than is recieving public support, each welfare client will recieve more than each working man is giving. If you don`t have economic redistribution, the poor would just have it to hard. Add to this the fact that if you limit the supply of labour, people with a low market value will earn more, just look at countries like Norway and Denmark! What happens in the US is that the labour market bets swamped with labour, which means that the low level workers in the US earn much less than their counterpart in the northern welfare states.

Also, I do believe that governments should only interfere in the market if it is really neccessary. Try to regulate the economy to "create" jobs, you end up in a complete mess like Japan! Therefore, my opinion is that keeping some people off the labour market, is better than having the market have it`s way alone, or regulating and subsizing the economy to "create" jobs.

Another point is that it is practially impossible to determine who is fit for work and who isn`t! Even in Norway, when we have ten percent of all people on disability, there are people who obviously aren`t fit for work, who don`t get disability, and a whole lot who shouldn`t have gotten it who get it! I believe that the same principle should apply here as in the justice system, innocent until proven guilty!

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. Well, your English is outstanding

I wish I could handle any other language quite so well.

I think what is lost in your post is how important work is to most Americans. It's not just the money, it's the sense of self of dignity and self worth. Those are lost when we take away that job. Who are we, we ask ourselves.

So what I would like to see is providing people with jobs or training for jobs. No one who is able to work, should be without a job for the longterm. (No, I don't mean unemployment. I mean after that.)

There is a great deal to do in our society -- from building and fixing infrastructure, to teaching children or adults who need retraining. I would rather have people doing those jobs than sitting at home idle. As someone who fought a good chunk of his life to avoid welfare, I see the need for it, but I want it to do more than just provide cash.

And, if we did this, there would be low-level options for many workers much more appealing than the McJobs. This would force employers to pay more for such workers and raise wages all around.

It is not impossible to determine who is fit for a job. There are medical tests to do so. I hope your figure is wrong about 10% disability. That is an extreme number and I can't fathom why it would be so high.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

151. Comparing countries

Thank you very much!

The reason us scandinavians know english so well, is that we don`t "dub" american and english television and movies.

When it comes to work, it is important to everybody, but there seem that europeans have a higher tolerance for unemployment than americans and asians. Hovewer norwegians, though our work participation rate are among the highest if not the highest in the industrialized world, we work few hours per person. Work is therefore less important to norwegians than the inhabitants of many other nations.

When it comes to norwegian disability, yes it is that high. One reason is that we have a high "practical minimum wage", and anyone who can`t hold a job that pays around $11 therefore ends up on disability. On the positive side, we have the world second "richest" poor people, only being beaten by Switzerland, and relative povery are at around 7 percent, which is fairly low.

I certainly see the point on retraining, and we have very good oppurtunities for reeducation in this coutry. The problem is that not everyone is cut out for higher education, and if you are not teorically gifted and can`t manange physical labour, we have a problem.

[Granite]

172. That's where increased leisure-time can play a role

Sorry, don't mean to jump in on this thread late - I've been reading with fascination for the past hour! I agree that in the US, we tend to identify with our work - we are what we do. But that could be part of the problem. Research shows that Americans are overworked and overstressed. The reasons for this are multi-faceted. Part of this is economic - we need to work more today to afford the basics of life (the dual-income family is as much necessity as anything else). Part of this is the cycle of work-spend-debt that so many fall victim to. Part of this is the Protestant work-ethic that creates that need to work, and our aversion to laziness.

The fight for leisure has been a workers-rights issue since the early part of the 20th century, and somewhere along the line we've given up this fight. Having opportunities for meaningful leisure can help people begin to identify with other kinds of purposive action that is non-work related - hobbies, volunteerism, family, community, avocations, etc. More leisure time provides more opportunity for activity that is, at its base, intrinsically rewarding, and also plays a role in enhancing and strengthening our communities.

Increasing leisure for all Americans is more than just "nice to have after everything else gets taken care of" IMHO. More leisure time is a key progressive principle, and should be a centerpiece for progressive reform in the U.S.

Great thread - lots I would have liked to respond to! This has helped me tap into my other political self - the progressive self, the self that fights my urge towards centrism!

[Kanary]

173. More leisure = better health= lower health costs

How about also more time for contemplation -- Walt Whitman style? Lots of possibilities.

I hope you will go ahead and respond to more. It's still here. :)

Kanary

[Kanary]

147. Glad to have the Norwegian Perspective!

Thanks so much, PeeWee, for taking the time and effort to log in here, and illuminate some of this for us! I didn't know from your first post that you are from Scandinavia, and I'm really glad to hear your perspective!

You make a very good point about just not worrying about the "determination" so much. Whew... that lets out a lot of tension right there, eh? :) IN the US, what it has to do with is the jealousy and righteous anger of the RW, who think that any sort of being without work is akin to sin. I think they secretly wish to quit their jobs, so they think anyone without a job is "getting away with something". It's nearly impossible to get them to understand that coming to the realization that one can't work is uusally a very painful process.

I want to know more about your society, and right now can't think of the questions to ask.

Please stick around, 'K? Your input is really helpful!

Kanary, grateful for Scandinavians! :)

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

154. Thank you very much

Actually, I have a problem with norwegian libertarians(the only get a couple of hundread votes, but they are "fun" anyway) claiming that noone is poor in America, because I don`t have access to much information about the situation is the US.

One great point is that norwegian work participation rates are NOT lower than the american work participation rates. The reason for the high number of norwegians on both welfare and work, is that most women work in this country, and you have a situation where you either work or are on public support. I think the reason the US system functions so well as it does, is that many people, both women and other family members are supported by other members of their family.

[redqueen]

157. The problem will only get worse

First of all I want to thank you for joining this thread and commenting. We Americans are starved for viewpoints of anyone outside of mainstream, USA.

This is eventually going to bite us all right on the ass. As productivity continues to rise due to technological improvements, efficiency, etc... it will only worsen.

We all need to seriously think about how many jobs will be lost not only to other countries, but to advanced robots -- probably within the next 10 to 15 years.

With this 'everyone should work' attitude, which is nice -- yes, everyone should be occupied doing something, certainly -- we seem to be avoiding the inevitable.

We need to think long and hard about how much sense it makes, in the long term, to consider the only thing worth spending your time doing as something that earns you a check from someone profiting from your labors.

Teachers, social workers... how many professions were you talked out of because 'you can't earn any money'. I know I heard that from my father incessantly due to wanting to be a teacher.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

175. Living to work

Americans DO work too hard--those that have jobs, at least. In addition, our whole educational system is warped by the idea that its only purpose is to prepare young people for jobs. That's why school budget problems bring about cuts to music and art courses and not to sports programs--sports are believed to build "teamwork" and "discipline." Sports are touted as the cure for unmotivated students, for juvenile delinquency, and for the nation's obesity problem. (Not coincidentally, they are also regimented and dependent on a coach whose word is law.) The recent emphasis on test scores has only made the situation worse. Young people are supposed to grow up competent in the dry basics, period.

No wonder Americans live to work. What else can they do when the whole educational system seems determined to mold them in that way, not only with the concentration on "the basics" in K-12, but also with the presence of college majors like Personnel Management, Corporate Health and Fitness, Finance, and Hotel and Restaurant Management, majors that are considered vo-tech courses in other countries?

In most other countries, higher education gives you a grounding in a real academic subject area and your first employer trains you for the specifics of the job. Incidentally, this was the patern in the U.S. until the mid 1970s.

What else can Americans do but work when they are not encouraged to cultivate interests in the arts, community affairs, or the world outside the U.S.?

[ACK]

174. Yes we do have a work fetish

An ex-pat friend from Bosnia who fled the war once commented that he missed home because Americans don't know how to have fun. All they want to do is work he said.

I do not think MuddleoftheRoad or anyone else would object to five weeks off.

Disability is important because you are right there are people that simply cannot work and abandoning them to the street is not only wrong but socially damaging when those same people end up in the hospitals and other dire straights.

What many leftist even in this country fail to realize is that the entire welfare system in America is in jeopardy from the radical Conservatives who believe in either a laize farre or a corporatist (almost fascist) state.

This whole thread got off on a completely maddening tangent.

My post unfortunately started it.

I said that the American left has to completely re-frame Welfare into a workfare system because of America's love of the "work ethic" for those that are not completely rich.

Work Programs for those that can work. This makes the infrastructure stronger and it can be more than just "make work" if done the old FDR way. Artists painted murals on walls and performers put on shows in towns and such during the Great Depression for example as well as building projects and such.

Transportation. There is something called sprawl in America. People in one area cannot get to jobs in another close area within their own communities becuase of a lack of transportation. Get people that can work to jobs in their area of the country.

Job Retraining. Give people the opportunity to train for jobs available in their areas and better access to loans for not just university but also technical training.

Daycare. This may shock you man but there are women in America that have to abandon their children to make enough money to pay their families way through life. I proposed that their has to be a solution for this.

Is any of this concrete? No, these were just ideas I threw out.

Disability is very important but take any of my above remarks as an opening for destroying disability.

[camero]

177. Don't apologize. You did a good job.

I think we do need some make work. Work also gives us a sense of community and purpose in life. Like we are helping people. Notice how many lottery winners still work even with the millions. Its because work gives us a sense of purpose in life.

But there is a definite need for balance between work and home life. and a host of other issues that I am glad you brought up.

Before I got diabetes, I was a truck driver over the road. This line of work is not covered under the Fair Labor Standards Act. And I put in more than my share of 100 hr weeks. We were encouraged to log loading and unloading as not work time. Knowing all this, I knew that the pubs would love to do away with the 40 hr week because more time means more money for them.

But now I can't do physical labor anymore with this. No disability and did not go to college where i could get skills to use my brain.
If there were good re-training programs, with the amount of immigration at this point, I would choose to learn a foriegn language.
Interpreters are the growing demand jobs. An excellent opportunity if I could afford it.

No, I agree with you. I don't think we should abandon the vulnerable in our population either, because a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

[ACK]

178. We live in dangerous times...

The balance in the Senate is shifting.

We are at risk of losing the Great Society all together if we are not carefull and aware of the perceptions of the population.

That is one reason among many (my adoration of FDR and others) that I posted my original post.

My first wife went on Disability for a year and went back to work. There was no fraud or anything else bad associated to that horrible journey she went through. She got better and as soon as she could she walked out on me and back to work. :-(

As a society we have to be acutely aware of the racist code words surrounding the welfare state debate and how at risk these programs are at this time.

More of a general topic and suitable for a totally seperate thread is the fact that we need to leverage the new media in the way the Deanies have to form a new progressive agenda and re-frame the entire world of debate in new populist progressive terms and initiatives.

It cannot just be a re-hash of the old liberalism not because there was every anything wrong with it, but because we need something new and improved and powerful to re-capture the imagination of a new time.

A populist "Progressive Deal" for a new age with a grassroots movement that embraces the Democrat base instead of marginalizing it and utilzes the faithfull in a campaign to take the country back from the radicals that have taken the flag and the country for their own.

[camero]

179. Oh, I agree. We do need to change the terms of the debate.

And that there is alot of racism in the way the pubs have framed the debate. A "Progressive Deal" is just the thing we need. Maybe you should e-mail a campaign with that one.

I'm glad you jumped in because there are alot of good ideas that you brought out.

I'm sorry about your first wife. You deserve better.

[Polemonium]

170. Excellent read

If the good old USA doesn't start moving in some measurable way in this direction in the next couple of years, I will be an ex-pat. The thing is I don't want to become an ex-pat, I love many many things about the USA, but if I can't help change where we are headed - and so far nothing I've done seems to have helped send us in the direction we need to go - then I can no longer be apart of something I don't agree with.

Again excellent read, I've felt this way for a long time and that was one of the best arguments for the "welfare state" I've seen in awhile. Thanks for posting it.

[Kanary]

176. redqueen, I can't read the posts at the bottom...

It appears that there are still people wanting to post to this most fine thread of yours.

Unfortunately, it's reached the point where I can't bring up all the posts.

Would you please consider starting a second part to this thread? I realize there are some downsides
to that, but I would appreciate not missing any more posts.

Thanks for considering this!

Kanary

[Kanary]

181. humming the bumping song

:kick: