Kucinich was against the Iraq War? YES, according to the record!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

While Dean fans and Clark fans slowly wake up to the fact that neither of their candidates did anything except make speeches to stop the IWR, we all know that KUCINICH DID.

Dennis J. Kucinich voted AGAINST the Iraqi War Resolution, and AGAINST the Patriot Act.

[wryter2000]

1. What could they have done?

Neither Dean nor Clark had any more leverage to stop the war than I did.

You're not helping Kucinich, a man I truly admire, with this kind of post.

[goodhue]

9. Did they join you protesting the war on the streets last February?

Just asking. I don't remember either of them marching against the war. In fact I'm not aware of either of them ever marching against anything. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd love to learn about it. Kucinich has been on the streets with the people his whole life. I know this kind of observation makes the Deanies & Clarkites froth at the mouth, but I happen to think its the truth. Maybe I'm all wet. If so, please accept my apologies and correct the record.

Kucinich was at the February 15, 2003 peace rally in New York City, where he had this to say to the assembled crowd:

The Whole World Is Watching

Columbia astronaut Kalpana Chawla is said to have looked upon the earth from the silence of outer space and said to her fellow voyagers: "Look! The whole world is reflected in the iris of my eye." As she watched the whole world, the whole world is watching us to see what is reflected in our eyes, the light of peace or the fires of war. We who gather carry a vision of peace. We see the world as one. We carry a vision of human unity. We see the world undivided. Today and tomorrow we act on that vision.

To those leaders in our country struggling in inner space, those who have war in their eyes and in their hearts and would project it upon the world: The whole world is watching. "Look, the whole world is reflected in the iris of my eye." America is reflected in the irises of a billions of eyes. The whole world is watching to see if the power of our morality is greater than the power which would unleash our weapons. Peaceful coexistence or war. The whole world is watching. A fist or an open hand. The whole world is watching. First use of nuclear weapons or leadership in global disarmament. The whole world is watching. Bombs or bread to the Iraqi people, to the Iranian people, to the North Korean people. The whole world is watching.

Some in the name of peace, prepare us for war, in the name of liberty, prepare us for submission, in the name courage, prepare us to be fearful. Let all Americans challenge war, submission and fear! Some power has ruled there is no permit to march today. Yet we are on the march. The direction of peace is forward! We are on the march. The direction of human unity is forward! We are on the march. The direction of political change is forward. We are on the march. We will either bring an end to war or we will bring an end to a war-like administration. We are on the march!

Two hundred and fourteen years ago the First Congress standing upon the holy ground of a new Constitution met in this city. Their permit came from the Declaration of Independence. The same High Power which entrusted them entrusts us with the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. We call upon the Spirit of the Founders to guide us as we create a new world where all may live in peace.

The United States, brought forth by the power of human unity, seeks to be reborn. We invoke the Spirit of Freedom. We hear the cadence of courage echo across the ages: "Life, Liberty, pursuit of Happiness". Once again, the hour has come for us to stand for unity, even as our government tells us we must follow it into war. Once again the hour has come for us to be strong of heart. The direction of human unity is forward. We are on the march. It is our government which must follow, or be swept aside. Thank you.

http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech10.htm

[veganwitch]

37. dean said he would have gone

but he wasnt invited. this is quoted in a thread that was posted here. i will try to find it.

[redqueen]

38. Invited?

I didn't get an invitation either...

Is this supposed to fly as a reason he didn't march?

Come on! He was only against the war as it was waged. Given UN approval and an alliance, he would have gone to war just as most of the other candidates would have. War is good for business, and your re-election prospects.

[goodhue]

40. Protests don't have invitations, do they?!

I know I've crashed a few uninvited. Certainly he would have been able to address the crowd were he to have been present. I feel bad for him if he didn't know about it and would have gone otherwise.

[SahaleArm]

51. LOL *nm*

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

53. Dean won't go unless he can give a speech or something?

that's half the problem right there, now isn't it?

[blm]

60. He could have spoken...any notable attendee spoke there.

.

[Walt Starr]

2. Poop

:hurts:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

49. Are you happy Dean wants to keep us occupying Iraq for years?

Poop - Dean Poop - is right.

[w4rma]

3. Sunday, October 6, 2002

…
Sunday, October 6, 2002; Page A12
…
Speaking at a fundraising dinner filled with activists wary about going to war again in the Persian Gulf again, Sens. John F. Kerry (Mass.) and John Edwards (N.C.), and Vermont Gov. Howard Dean highlight the spectrum of opinion within the Democratic Party as lawmakers in Washington prepare to vote on a resolution authorizing war.
…
Dean, whose advocacy of liberal domestic policies has struck a chord among grass-roots activists here, offered the sharpest dissent. He contended that Bush has yet to make a compelling case to justify going to war.

"The greatest fear I have about Iraq is not just that we will engage in unwise conduct and send our children to die without having an adequate explanation from the president of the United States," he said. "The greater fear I have is the president has never said what the truth is, which is if we go into Iraq we will be there for 10 years to build that democracy and the president must tell us that before we go."
…
http://www.dre-mfa.gov.ir/eng/iraq/iraqanalysis_27.html

[wryter2000]

4. So, tell me...

How did Dean and Clark vote on the IWR and the Patriot Act?

[LuminousX]

5. Yep, Kucinich was opposed to the war. Thanks.

[bowens43]

6. Too bad he's unelectable......

[Droopy]

7. I'm a DK guy, but

I don't think calling out other candidates supporters like this is going to help matters any. Couldn't you just have said, "I like DK. Look he did this."

[Wetzelbill]

11. um, I concur

[Walt Starr]

14. Nobody should be building up their candidates by

tearing down the others.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. nice sentiment from a Dean fan!

Poor Kerry got crucified for one wrong vote, by Dean's fans on this site (for one). My little swipe at Dean and Clark doesn't change the tone of DU one little bit really.

[Walt Starr]

21. I agree that Dean fans ripping Kerry is wrong

Two Wrongs don;t make a right, but three lefts do.

[Sean Reynolds]

8. I'm sure Clark or Dean would have loved to vote no......

But you're forgetting, or either don't know, the two did not have voting power. Does that make their opinion any less?

I don't see your point here. Would you have liked Clark and Dean to take all their baby girl dolls and make a 'mock' congress and then vote NO on the Iraq War Resolution; would that of made you feel better?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

10. You know what Dean & Clark should have done?

They should have broken into the capitol, stealth ninja style, and put on those way cool rubber masks that the secret agents wore in the "Mission Impossible" movie. The masks should have made them look "Senatorial" enough that when they cast their votes, they could have proclaimed themselves senators from American Samoa, and no one would have batted an eye.

What cowards they are for not having been in any kind of position to vote on this!

Look, Kucinich is absolutely to be commended for standing up and voting against the war, on the record. But to fault candidates who DIDN'T GET A VOTE as somehow being hypocritical cowards is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

[Wetzelbill]

12. not a bad idea

I do wonder if they actually would have voted against it. Really I doubt either one would have if they were in Congress at the time. Both of them have been more than a little opportunistic on the issue. Nothing against them, I like both, but nothing in either man's past or record would suggest that they would not have been against this war. It just so happens they are men with presidential ambitions who were gearing up to campaign at the time. Dean especially. Clark came in late in the race, but the notion to run was with him for quite awhile. Smart men really. Election years require people to remake themselves and stand out. They did what they had to do.

[LeahMira]

32. I don't want to forgive and forget...

I do wonder if they actually would have voted against it. Really I doubt either one would have if they were in Congress at the time. Both of them have been more than a little opportunistic on the issue.

I tend to agree with you but we will never know, will we? With Dennis, we DO know.

I don't hold it against Kerry or anyone else who voted for the IWR because I remember what was happening at the time and I also believe that there were personal threats made to at least some prominent individuals who eventually did vote for IWR. But even while I feel the way I do I also KNOW that Dennis voted against it.

That's the kind of guy that I'd like to see as President.

I don't want someone that I need to forgive for making a very human mistake. I want someone I don't have to forgive because he did the right thing in the first place.

[MuseRider]

13. There you go

cracking me up again. Yes, DK should be commended. I do not really know how the other 2 would have voted since I am not psychic, I wonder. DK is a man of and for the people. Thank you for keeping this light.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

17. Well...

(This goes for Wetzelbill's post as well) Like I said, Kucinich is the only one who voted, on the record, against the war, so in reality he is the only one who really has bragging rights to that, and he deserves all the credit in the world for sticking to his guns and being perceptive enough to see what the effects of the war would be down the road. I honestly have all the respect in the world for him for doing that, and he rightly deserves all the accolades he gets.

I guess what I have a hard time with is not people who are legitimately skeptical of how Dean and Clark would have voted, but those who feel that they have the ability to definitively say how they would have voted had they been in a position to do so. The most we can do is guess. If Dean and Clark get no credit for their anti-war stands, whether they're genuine or not, they also deserve the benefit of the doubt. They're innocent until proven guilty, in my eyes.

[Wetzelbill]

22. yup, pure speculation, bigger fish to fry anyway

I don't think either one of them would have been stupid enough to invade Iraq in the first place. So were either to be president then I don't think a foolish Iraq type situation would come about anyway.

I'm more interested in what both can do in terms of the economy, healthcare, international relations, and security etc. DK is my boy, but I have no problem with either Dean or Clark (or Kerry or Edwards et al)

[redqueen]

31. Hear hear

Both of them, regardless of what they did or said, were clearly unwilling to invade without a clear go-ahead from the UN and a solid alliance to help secure the peace afterward, as well as to help defray the costs.

While I personally think it would have been wrong to invade, their reasonable, SANE approach is LIGHTYEARS better than Bu$hCo's, and therefore I have no qualms with them.

[MuseRider]

24. A guess is not enough

to discredit a candidate. A person can look at the record and suppose, that makes it a bit clearer but a guess is not enough, at least for me. I may not be a Clark or Dean fan but they sure have been relentless against Bush* and we need that and I have all the respect in the world for them in that respect.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

26. Dean's record on opposing the war is like Clark's record opposing the war

rhetorical, and subject to change. Kucinich's record is not.

[redqueen]

33. This is really the crux of it

They both opposed it, but only in the sense that they would have gone to the UN, formed an alliance, etc.

Bush's minions in the media will use that caveat-based stance to blur the lines and make the choice between Bush and X less distinct.

I don't think Clark or Dean deserved to be ripped over their less-than-complete opposition to the war, but I do think that pointing out Kucinich's solid opposition is a good thing.

Additionally, I think our budget woes are only beginning. Kucinich is able to unequivically call attention to the absolute critical nature of cutting funding for war programs so we can fund domestic programs, and to me that makes him a far stronger candidate.

I know lots of people disagree... but for what it's worth...

[goodhue]

19. sounds great

Breaking into capital secret agent style would have been great but maybe it would have been easier to join the protests on the streets.

[wryter2000]

23. Thank you

You put it so much better than I did.

:yourock:

[Renew Deal]

16. Kucinich is part of the BFEE

Just kidding. DK seems to be the only one that stands by his word politically.

[MuseRider]

20. He does.

You know, it took me a little while to get over the switch on his pro life to pro choice stance. When I read about it he called his change of heart a journey. At first I thought that was just typical politician speak. Now, after all this time, I realize it is absolutely a journey for him. He does not change quickly or without reflection. I admire this in him.

[info being]

59. Right, which doesn't make him a good Democrat

Dems are supposed to say what the people want to hear and act in the interest of corporate power. That's the way its always been.

[redqueen]

18. This is why he's the best candidate

There's no explanation necessary, because he never straddled a fence.

People are sick of politico-doublespeak. Kucinich would slaughter bush. The rest... it'll be interesting.

[scarletwoman]

25. As a Kucinich supporter, I am ashamed of the tack you have taken!

You represent Dennis ill indeed by speaking contemptuously of his fellow Democrats.

What kind of support demonstrates such a lack of faith in the merits of DK's own good qualities that you would stoop to such a fatuous attack on other candidates?

Personally, as a supporter of DK's message of peace, I consider it my responsibility to reflect that message as best I can when promoting him. I sincerely hope that you will rethink your own approach...

sw

[goodhue]

27. no shame

Poster correctly and accurately points out that Dean and Clark did not oppose the war at the level that Dennis did. The IWR vote is not really the point. Much more interesting is which candidates were marching in the streets? But I guess Dean/Clark weren't THAT anti-war. Distinctions with a difference methinks.

As for representing Dennis illy, please check out . . .
http://www.kucinich.us/antiwar.php

[scarletwoman]

39. The IRW vote was precisely what the post cited.

I agree that it's "not really the point", but it was the ONLY point cited in the original post -- take a look.

And the opening salvo: "While Dean fans and Clark fans slowly wake up to the fact that neither of their candidates did anything except make speeches to stop the IWR..." seems needlessly belligerent. Not to mention that it simply begs the question of what else might they have done -- besides "make speeches" -- since they WEREN'T in a position to vote?

I've been staying away from DU for several months because of the -- imho -- degenerate and ugly quality of the discourse here in the candidate threads. I strongly dislike to see to see the same sort of tone of disrespect and combativeness creeping into Kucinich threads as well.

I went to the link you provided, and a statemnt-by-statement comparison between Kucinich and Dean is perfectly fair -- but you notice that it simply lays out facts without slamming Dean "fans".

In any case, thank you for your reply.

sw

[goodhue]

42. point taken

You are certainly right that the slam on fans slowly waking up is probably not helpful and may be wishful thinking to boot.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

44. Dean & Clark wants us to occupy Iraq for YEARS

The only question is whether or not they wake up BEFORE or AFTER the election.

As far as DU goes, this is probably one of the faintests bashes ever.

[goodhue]

47. yes

While the slam on fans may be unhelpful it is tame in tone compared to some of what has gone on here over the last several months. DK and supporters are routinely made fun of by some hard core naysayers.

[goodhue]

46. but surely they could have done more

"simply begs the question of what else might they have done"

Organizing and protesting against the war would have been a start.

[scarletwoman]

48. And they didn't -- we know that.

It's still beside the point to me -- I support Kucinich precisely because his actions match his words, and it's wonderful to be able to point that out. An honest, principled politician! What a joy!

As to what OTHER candidates "should" have done -- imho, it's just not relevant. Either people recognize and are attracted to DK's qualities enough to support him or not. I feel no animosity toward those who are drawn to other candidates and see no reason to disparage them for doing so.

These are truly awful times that we are living in, how does it help any of us to add to the sum total of negativity that surrounds us?

sw

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. instead of organizing AGAINST the war

they organized FOR their own campaign. Instead of protesting against the war, they protested against their rivals for the nomination.

Ain't nothing but personal ambition.

[Droopy]

28. As a fellow supporter, I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

29. you must be new here

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

34. haha

[scarletwoman]

45. LOL! Hardly new -- a few months shy of 3 years on DU.

I've been taking an extended break from DU for the past few months for the sake of my sanity (whatever may be left of it...) and have always been an infrequent, and decidedly non-flamboyant poster.

But I've seen YOU around, even if you haven't seen me... ;-)

sw

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

52. okay, I'm just joking

It's just that my little bash of Dean and Clark is hardly out of place on DU. The fact that Dean himself has bashed all the other candidates for having a record and position almost identical to his own, and actually got all his fans to believe it, is a little much.

This is exactly the way to get some attention to the fact that the ONLY candidate that has been 100% against the Iraq War and actually DID something about it is Dennis Kucinich.

[scarletwoman]

54. "...my little bash of Dean and Clark is hardly out of place on DU."

I know, that's precisely why I've been staying away. I don't LIKE the bashing, ANY of it. I've been happy to see that most Kucinich threads don't resort to those sorts of tactics, and I've hoped that it might remain so.

But, that's just me... :shrug: I endeavor to practice non-violence, in WORDS as well as deeds.

Peace,
sw

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

55. I respect your opinion, but disagree

At least we agree that DK is great! :)

[scarletwoman]

56. Thanks,

And yes, DK is AWESOME!

The way I see it, Dennis shines like a bright light, and that others are cast in shadow is a given. I'd rather keep pointing to the light, than pointing at the shadows.

So what's more useful? Working to attract more people by inviting them to take a look at the light, or speaking scornfully about those who don't see it?

sw

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

58. I'm all for pointing to the light

I think a scan of my posts on DU show that I've said positive good things about DK, by far the superior candidate, over and over on a consistent basis, as soon as I heard about him (I was originally a Clark Drafter, before I discovered Kucinich, although Clark is still a second (so is Gephardt and Edwards and Kerry and Dean, believe it or not!).

Sometimes you have to get people angry to get attention - this is politics (and DU) after all!

[Wetzelbill]

30. definitely the wrong tone, however

sometimes we all get riled up.

I will like to add to the discussion that Dr. Dean did say he would have voted for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which did give Bush the same power to go into Iraq as war vote we are all speculating on. So really, he basically did say he'd have voted for it. He just put it in a less obvious way.

[redqueen]

36. As another Kucitizen

I would like to kindly point out that Kucinich himself is trying to make this distinction more clear. Not less.

Remember, he's still trying to win the nomination, not get voted 'most congenial candidate'.

On edit: calling out the other candidates by name was unnecessary. I'll agree that was a bit more than was called for.

[goodhue]

43. Exactly!

http://www.kucinich.us/antiwar.php

[bobthedrummer]

35. I believe he is part of the House Intelligence Committee

he is well informed on defense and weapons systems especially space based ones. He sponsored the original Space Preservation Act of 2001/HR2977 but all the "exotic weapons" text disappeared from the revision Space Preservation Act of 2002/HR3616.
http://www.raven1.net/govptron.htm

Dennis was a consistant critic of the march to war by Bush administration. Still is.

[Scott Lee]

41. Seeing as neither Dean nor Clark were in congress at the time...

I'm not sure what your swipe at both men is supposed to mean. But anyway, I salute Dennis Kucinich for being one of the few with the morals and courage to stand against the IWR and Patriot Acts. I always have.

[redqueen]

57. A point

ALL Candidates, besides Kucinich and maybe Al, would have avoided this war at all costs. There was no immeidate threat, and we have much more pressing needs at home that warrant attention and funding.

We spend so much of our budget on war and militarization. The war on drugs is but one example of how our society is becoming MORE and not LESS militarized.

Did everyone see the schoolkids being held at gunpoint over drugs?

Want this to continue? I sure don't! That's why I'm voting for KUCINICH!

I'm not just tired of the same old same old... I'm dead set on ensuring my KIDS don't have to put up with it!

Please read the email linked from my thread on the Welfare State and let's discuss. :)