Kerry gave ALL for the peace movement. Why no give back.

[WiseMen]

Graduating from Yale, son of a diplomat, a multiligual world citizen, John Kerry could do whatever he wanted. Instead he enlisted to fight and lead men in a dubious war in Vietnam rather than let someone else die in his place. He believed it was the right thing to do. The nation gave him the Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his bravery, service and sacrifice.

John Kerry followed his tour of military duty with a life of service, marching to end the War in which he fought, and fighting for the end of poverty, homelessness and injustice in the nation. As a senator, he has marched in more peace protests than any other. He led the fight to expose the evils of U.S. covert military actions from Indonesia, to Latin America to the Persian Gulf.

While his rival Howard Dean maintained a cosy ignorance of foreign policy issues John Kerry was exposing the Reagan/Bush criminal operatons to promote and extend the tragic Iran/Irac war which caused the deaths of perhaps a million people.

John Kerry, more that any other candidate, has fought the good fight for a new and more peaceful world. WILL THE PEACE MOVEMENT EVER GIVE HIM A THANK YOU JOHN.

Here is another OPINION:
http://www.opednews.com/atkins_1203_kerry.htm

[TNOE]

1. Read Will Pitt's Article

and while very good - it is also very accurate that his vote on the Iraq war is haunting him. I feel like it was his bad for believing in this pResident - when none of the rest of us did - well most of us anyway.

[The Zanti Regent]

85. Tell that to my nephew!

23 years old, in Walter Reed, thanks to Kerry and the Pink Tutu Bunch (Edwards, Limp Dick Gephardt and LOONEYMAN) he is a quadraplegic, taking a bullet in the neck which sliced his spinal cord.

I want Kerry to face him and tell him how proud he was in voting to give President Asshole a blank check.

I cannot forgive the Pink Tutus for what they did to my nephew

[drfemoe]

90. I'm so sorry ..

for him, and your family.

I was going to say, if Kerry gave his ALL for *PEACE* . wouldn't *PEACE* be a decent pay-back?
What ELSE does he want? (I know the answer, but out of respect to DU, I'll keep it to myself.)

Good point.

[KaraokeKarlton]

2. Kerry gave Bush ALL he asked for. Why no apology?

There's your answer.

[Octafish]

7. Sen. Kerry did what he thought best for the country.

Hindsight is 20-20, eh KK? Bush is the one who screwed up the situation in Iraq.

BTW: Seeing how this thread is about a guy who believes in government service, what did your horse do? Howard Dean called Sen. Kerry "Bush-lite" for voting to give Bush authority to wage war in defense of the nation. I disagreed with his vote and let his office and those on DU know it.

Like he did when called up for his draft board physical, Dean did the dishonest thing in stating his position. Dean favored military action against Iraq if only Bush was constrained to go to the UN first. Funny, that's what Kerry said, originally.

[KaraokeKarlton]

And THIS is the reason Kerry isn't doing so hot

For Christ Sakes, Octafish, enough already! Howard Dean had every right to criticize Kerry for that vote because it was WRONG. And Howard Dean didn't make Kerry cast the vote he did. To have any kind of authenticity as Commander in Chief you MUST be willing to take responsibility for you own actions and choices. Kerry is NOT doing that and his supporters are enabling him. Everytime the IWR topic comes up the first thing out of the frantic fingers of Kerry supporters is trying to find some way to blame Howard Dean for the situation. Yes, Dean criticized Kerry over the vote, but he didn't make everyone think what they do. The ONLY reason it's been repeated is because an awful lot of people were already thinking what Dean said.

You know what, I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for John Kerry if he was a big enough to person to admit that he just plain f*cked up and regrets it. No one expects him to be perfect for crying out loud, but if a guy can't even own his mistakes and take responsibility for them how the hell can he expect the people to trust him to be responsible with our country? Riddle me that one, batman!

[Octafish]

37. Think for yourself, KK! Don't listen to the Kool-Aid tapes...

... While you and I agree that the Iraq invasion was stupid, Sen. Kerry had his reasons for it. First was doing what was in the best interest of the security of the United States.

Regarding who would make the best commander-in-chief: Kerry has been tested under fire in combat. Kerry volunteered for the dangerous missions, deep into enemy territory to pick up commando teams or drop them off. No one under his command died, although several men were wounded, including Kerry on three occassions. His superior officers, like the men under his command, lauded Kerry's leadership.

What did Dean do? Oh yeah. He showed up with a note from his doctor and an X-ray and stated he had a bad back. Then he celebrated his deferment in Vale that winter, skiing.

BTW: Good one about the Superhero! My wardrobe does resemble Batman's working ensemble, but my waisteline resembles that of Big Boy.

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. You guys are hopeless, you know?

I'm honestly not saying this to try to piss you off. And I openly admit that in most cases the things I say about Kerry are said with the distinct intention of pissing off those who are constantly slamming Dean. Here's another tidbit you probably didn't know...I am not even upset about Kerry's vote. I just don't like him as a candidate. I don't like his personality and demeanor and disagree with him on some issues I feel strongly about. The Iraq war isn't even one of those issues.

Here's a clue for you...I am telling you this because I think Kerry supporters just fail to understand why the IWR vote has hurt him so much. It's not that he screwed up, that can easily be forgiven. It's all the excuses and tapdancing around just admitting he was wrong and regrets the vote. He knows he was wrong because he's criticizing the debacle now.

Here's the deal. Everyone screws up from time to time. That's part of being human. Voters will let Kerry be human as soon as he is able to come to terms with the fact that he IS human. He is too damn concerned with looking perfect and is too afraid of admitting he's capable of making a mistake. That's where the problem is. And at this point, I do think it's probably too late for him to fix it. However, it isn't too late for him to stop trying to sabotage Dean when it's really Kerry's own fault he's in the position he is. His behavior is a big turn off. He's sinking fast because of his own bad choices and he's selfishly trying to take Dean down with him and contribute to all the in-fighting going on. His pride and self-centered behavior could hurt the whole country. Even if he were to succeed in bringing Dean down, it's NOT going to help him at all. It would help Clark who has never even won a single election before in his life and is totally untested in the political arena. Kerry needs to stop it and so do his supporters. This isn't about him it's about this country.

[sasquatch]

55. The IWR vote hurts him so much because...

Those are our friends and family out there getting killed or maimed in the desert. That war he voted for is what lost us international support in the fight against global terrorism. That being said I would vote for a spittoon full of tobacco spit if it was running against Bush.

[sasquatch]

56. Ooops!! nevermind this post

[Sensitivity]

62. Nothing, it seems, could stop the NeoCons -- Kerry tried

Kerry raceD around from the Senate to the State Department to the U.N. to try to stop the rush to war. LETS BE HONEST. The NeoCons in the Whitehouse and the Pentagon were hell-bent of their evil schemes.

[sasquatch]

63. No he didn't

He voted for authorization that would give Bush unlimited war powers. If he would've voted against it I would be more Pro Kerry but he didn't so I'm not.

[blm]

15. Tell us what ALL Bush asked for that Kerry

gave. Do you even know?

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. We're talking about IWR

so that would be a good place to start.

Now the million dollar question is whether you are going to just admit that Kerry needs to take responsibility and admit he was wrong or continue to make excuses and try to transfer Kerry's guilt onto Howard Dean.

[blm]

31. Do you even KNOW what Bush wanted in IWR, KK?

Please tell us what ALL Kerry gave Bush that he wanted in the IWR?

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. A yes vote and the appearance that he agreed with Bush

which essentially is why the IWR vote has been the kiss of death for Kerry and the others who voted the same way.

Nice attempt at shifting the argument and focus, though. Unfortunately for you, it's not going to work this time or any other time.

It was Kerry's vote and he has no one to blame for his current position but himself. Nothing you do or say about Dean or anyone else is going to change that fact.

[blm]

60. You said Kerry gave Bush everything he wanted on IWR. That is false.

Bush wanted NO involvement of the UN, NO presentation of evidence to Congress and the UN, NO further weapons inspections, and the authority to expand use of force to Iran and Syria.

Kerry, Gephardt and others worked to curtail Bush where they could. Why attack falsely and say they gave Bush ALL he wanted?

[KaraokeKarlton]

61. Nice attempted twist of my words

But I'd suggest you go back and re-read what I wrote. Kindly show me exactly where I said "Kerry gave Bush everything he wanted on IWR." People on this site are not stupid, blm, and your tendency to cite quotes that were never made is getting very old. As long as you keep trying to sell ideas that no one is buying you aren't going to get anywhere at all. You know Kerry screwed up in making that vote. You know that it's not anyone else's fault but his own that he is paying for that vote. Why is it so hard for you to just concede that fact and move on?

[CTLawGuy]

27. IWR, Patriot Act, not voting on the medicare bill....

NT

[WiseMen]

32. TED KENNEDY accepted Kerry's Apology -- He Endorsed Him

No one opposed the IWR more strongly than Edward Kennedy. Yet, Kennedy accepted Kerry decision on the vote and stood by Kerry's side when Kerry later stood up in the senate against Bush's "RUSH TO WAR."

Kerry has said again and again that his was wrong to trust the Bush regime to do the right thing re Irac. He, in the face of a barage of Republican smears, called for "regime change" in Washington when it was clear that Bush was intent on breaking the U.N. process.

He did what he could. GIVE THE MAN A BREAK.

[JohnKleeb]

34. I think Ted Kennedy endorsing Kerry is fine evidence

That you can be hard against the war yet support someone who supported it. BTW I obviously dont support Kerry judging by my avatar but hes been my number 2 for almost a half year now.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. Well Byrd actually opposed the IWR more strongly than Kennedy

fortunately for Byrd he is not from Ma and doesn't have that state party loyalty to worry about the way Ted does.

[WiseMen]

53. DOES BIRD SUPPORT HOWARD DEAN

Does anyone have information on Robert Bird's upcoming endorsement of Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich.

[goobergunch]

72. Byrd hasn't made an endorsement yet (n/t)

[blm]

94. Bush wanted WAY more and Kerry was negotiating to curtail it

and those negotiations cost Kerry and the others.

What Bush asked for that he DIDN'T get thanks to Dem negotiators:

No UN involvement.
NO weapons inspections.
NO presentation of evidence to UN or Congress.
Further expansion of force into Syria and Iran.

You went with the media spin that the Dems caved, well, Bush already had the votes for war HIS way, but they dangled the scenario of a bill that had more bipartisan support and they negotiated with him to make the better bill. That's what you do when you have the responsibility of getting that better bill.

[Octafish]

3. Excellent post, WiseMen!

You eloquently make the case for supporting Sen. John Kerry. Thank you! Sen. Kerry has put his country ahead of his own self-interest his entire adult life. Wish there were more like him in government service.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, WiseMen! Wish there were more like you, too!

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. Now hold on just a minute

How on earth can you claim that Kerry has put his country ahead of his own self-interest his entire life? Just what the hell was that IWR vote for? The ONLY reason he voted for IWR was because of his own self-interest regarding his presidential aspirations. He thought that if he voted against it that he would be raked over the coals during this campaign.

Kerry may have a good past record, but how dare you say that he was putting his country ahead of his own self-interest when he voted for this Iraqi debacle!

[molly]

25. Here ya go.....

from Will's article -

“This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career,” Kerry said. “I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That’s what I voted for.”

http://truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. That's not an apology

It's an excuse. There is a difference. There is no sincere remorse for his vote. He just keeps trying to explain it away so people will forget about it. He made a terrible mistake and he needs to say "I was wrong and I regret the vote", not "But I was misled. I thought I was voting for something else. Yadda, yadda, yadda." He wants an easy out without actually taking responsibility for doing the wrong thing. That won't sell.

[Cheswick2.0]

52. but that is not what he voted for

if he only wanted the inspectors in he could have insisted thre resolution be changed to reflect that. Besides, lots of people just don't believe he was that naive about bush's intentions.

[molly]

26. Here ya go.....

from Will's article -

“This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career,” Kerry said. “I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That’s what I voted for.”

http://truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml

[sendero]

36. Nice story....

.... but I'm not buying it for ONE SECOND.

[molly]

41. Why?

do you have some points to dispute?

[sendero]

51. Sure I do...

... that vote went well beyond creating a threat. It created a blank check.

Later in the interview....

Kerry nodded, bowed his head, and said, “You’re right. I was wrong to trust him. I’m sorry I did.” And then he was gone.

This is the part I simply do not buy (and you have to believe this to believe the rest, that he did trust Bush*). Why would he trust Bush*? Bush* had already broken loads of his campaign promises, and had made it very clear that he was intent on war no matter what.

I'm supposed to believe a player like John Kerry, a veteran of politics for 30 years couldn't see what damn near every person on this board could?

That's what I meant when I said "I'm not buying it". I think the evidence is very strong that Mr. Kerry made a political calculation that backfired. I agree with his supporters that this was an anomaly, his overall career is one he can be proud of. But he continues to make excuses for this vote.

Tossing that aside (because every candidate has made mistakes and will continue to do so) - I find the puzzlement of those who thought he was a shoo-in almost strange. Other than a good record in Congress, he doesn't seem to have much to offer voters. Ideas are great, but it takes a leader to rally the public, and to get your bidding done in a working situation. I see no evidence recently that Kerry is exceptional in those traits. But at least 2 of the other candidates are, and that is Kerry's problem.

[Octafish]

30. That's Trippi-Dean's spin.

Sen. Kerry knows more about international terrorism than what Bush said in 2002 or Howard Dean will ever know.

In 1997, Kerry wrote a book on the subject, "The New War." Clinton was so impressed by it, he asked Kerry for help in developing the US strategy to fight terrorism after the bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998.

If Bush had read Kerry's book, and understood where the threats were coming from, 9-11 might have been avoided. OTOH, if Dean had read it, he'd be using so many lines from it his followers might understand more than what Trippi's talking points say about it.

BTW: Your condescending tone is most illustrative. Are you bucking for a promotion?

Trippi! Give this person an extra slice of pepperoni!

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. I think for myself thanks

I support Dean not because of this campaign or fiery speeches. I support him because I live in Vermont and he was my governor for a long time. I know he can get the job done that needs to be done because he did it here. I've always supported him, even when he was kind of dull. I support the man because he knows what he's doing as a leader and executive.

I'm telling you what I see. It's not spin or parroted from anyone else. Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to help you here. If you want to think otherwise, so be it. It's not skin off my bum.

[Demobrat]

4. Vietnam was 30 years ago.

There are people who are voting now who were not even born back then. And there are even more who don't feel like fighting that war any more. It's what's going on now that matters, not what happened over a quarter century ago.

[blm]

19. and when did Kerry help end other wars, Demobrat?

Iran-Iraq, illegal wars in Central America....did he do nothing beyond Vietnam in your eyes? Who exposed Reagan-Bush? Who was the first in the Senate advocating for gays? Who was helping to craft the Kyoto Accord for 10 years? Who wrote the bill putting 100, 000 cops into communities? Who helped draft the Hate Crimes bill?

[DemoTex]

43. The lessons of history, Demobrat. The lessons of history.

Besides, our involvment in Vietnam goes back at least half a century with promises made to the French ... promises broken, BTW. Vietnam is but one of the history lessons that new voters (and old voters too, myself included) must study. Verb sap.

[Demobrat]

65. Sure, the lessons of history are important.

But does it follow that Kerry deserves to be president because of something he did 30 years ago? And if so, does that apply to everybody who fought, or just him?

[DemoTex]

67. Demobrat, I'm not talking about Kerry/Clark/Dean/Edwards or any candidate.

They all have their merits and distractions. I merely point out the perils of ignoring history.

[Padraig18]

5. When will Sen. Kerry apologize for his IWR vote?

Seems an equally valid question, to me...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. apologizing for his IWR vote would sink his campaign and fast.

Would you people stop. Bush is the one who should be apologizing.

[Padraig18]

10. No.

It might actually gain him some of the respect he lost from people like me, who did respect him, until that stab-in-the-back vote.

[Scott Lee]

17. You've got that backwards. His vote FOR IWR is whats sinking him

Unless you've been watching the campaign in a parallel universe...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. No. It would make him unelectable in the general election

He's sticking to his guns on that vote.

[Scott Lee]

76. And sticking to his guns on IWR will mean he's buried with his boots on

I hope he's happy with that.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Actually, the opposite is true.

It's most likely too late at this point, but if he had of done this as soon as it became obvious that it was the wrong vote he would probably be doing just about as well as Dean is right now. At this point it wouldn't help him in this campaign, but it would certainly change the negative opinion many have of him now.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. just to appease SOME Democrats?

Wishy washy is not worth it. And Kerry's vote was right- as Clinton reinforced today.

[Cheswick2.0]

58. Clinton is wrong too

and this is from a Major Clinton fan.

Look Kerry is going down (he might be able to pull it out but I doubt it)and no matter how his supporters feel there was something inevitable about his candidacy, he blew it. It might be just that he is not he right man at this time and next time will be too late. There are plenty of Good men and women who have never and will never get to run like Kerry has. He took his oportunity and he squandered it on a bad choice. He was wrong, even he admits that. People are holding it against him because they expect when the chips are down again he will again refuse to listen to us.
He doesn't have the political power or instincts of Bill Clinton to save him from these kinds of miscalculations.

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. Recognizing and owning your won mistake is NOT "wishy washy"

It's called humility, honor and responsibility. And if it were only "some" Democrats who were upset with him over that vote he would be doing MUCH better than he is. This is NOT about image and stubborn pride, it's about what is the right thing to do.

[Scott Lee]

77. Right. It's called honorable and worthy of respect.

[blm]

95. Yeah, like someone who supports unilateral use of force as determined by

Bush but lies about it while attacking others for that same stance. That's honorable and worthy of respect? I spit on that deceit.

[BurtWorm]

6. Arguments like that just aren't going to do a thing for Kerry.

They smack of entitlement. I want him to be competetive, but he has to deal head on with IWR if he wants the peace movement to get behind him in a big way. More important, he needs some radical strategy or he's lost. (Apologizing to small groups is not the most efficient way to handle the problem.) And even though I'm for Dean, I think that would be kind of a tragedy. The whole Kerry campaign has been.

[DrFunkenstein]

16. I Agree About The Entitlement Thing

While I thought the Vietnam thing was a nice tool to have in the shed, it was his experience of 8 years as chair of the Terrorism and International Relations that impressed me more. That is why his plan is far more comprehensive than any of the others, including Wes Clark.

[blm]

11. Because Deanies have been successful spreading other memes

about Kerry...that he is a "corrupt Washington insider" and Dean himself declared Kerry is "Bushlite" to his minions. So....do you think they care about real history and Kerry's significant role in it, exposing more government corruption than all the candidates put together? Sadly, I haven't seen much concern for it.

[Scott Lee]

78. POOP.

[Octafish]

84. Truth hurts.

While almost all of Dean's DU supporters are good people and have great reasons for supporting Ho-Ho, there are a few who have done all they can to smear Sen. Kerry for at least a year and a half. I won't do them the favor of repeating their libel, but suffice it to say it worked to poison the well for many DUers who were not sold on one candidate or another.

Regarding Ho-Ho: Yeah, he's unelectable. Draft dodging ski bums are not what America needs post 9-11.

[Scott Lee]

91. POOP. act II

[Octafish]

98. When will Dean apologize for dodging the draft?

Just because you don't care doesn't mean the majority of Americans don't care. It's a legitimate issue post 9-11.

If you want a candidate who KNOWS what to do under fire, who has the COURAGE to serve others, who WILL be there when the going gets rough, vote John Kerry.

[mrgorth]

12. Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. And, then he sold out.

Tens of thousands of Americans and millions of Vietnamese gave up a hell of a lot more than John Kerry, and gained a hell of a lot less.

There were thousands of Americans courageous enough to face prison rather than go to "a dubious war in Vietnam" and kill Vietnamese.

As for his record as a senator, that's all fine. But, it's like saying that LBJ was a terrific president for fighting poverty, civil rights, etc, except for that little mistake in Vietnam.

Kerry guessed wrong on what would sell with the voters and now he's paying for his cynical opportunism. Tough.

[molly]

46. What "sells" votes?

where were the other candidates? Clark was a commissioned officer. Howard Dean was skiing on the slopes during Viet Nam.

[Scott Lee]

14. I wish he'd have given a "NO" vote to IWR.

That would have spoken volumes about his commitment to reign in modern US imperialism and never ending war.

[molly]

20. He didn't - he thought, as many others

that it would force Bush to go to the UN and WAIT for UN approval of any force - Bush lied.

Does this erase the volumes of good he has done? Bush would have gone without anyone's vote - that's the point. The vote was intended to stop him.

[Scott Lee]

79. His failure to take a braver stand against Bush reveals weakness.

Thats what it gets down to, for me. And years in Congress won't erase the stain that America now has on it's collective soul for a thing called the Iraq War.

[chiburb]

22. Would've been a beautiful post....

But for the shot at Dean. I agree with every other word of what you posted, but why "call out" Dean as a contrast? Why name anybody else at all? The Kerry kudos would've stood on their own...

[sandnsea]

42. Kerry normalized relations with Vietnam

McCain and Kerry were "the government" that Howard Dean referred to as working hard to make it possible for families to finally claim remains and find out what happened to their loved ones. That little fact was totally ignored in the story on Charlie Dean, I give Kerry enormous respect for not bringing it up at all. But I noticed it and I noticed Howard's complete lack of integrity by not being able to thank Senator Kerry and McCain personally at the time. It doesn't have much to do with this story in particular, but it has a hell of alot to do with some of the kudos Kerry should receive and doesn't. Especially by Howard Dean.

[sandnsea]

45. oops

[Capn Sunshine]

24. I worked with JK in the peace movement

He was a very articulate speaker, head of Vietnam Vets against The War. Great speeches. Always a good draw.I admire what he did taking on the BFEE with the investigations into BCCI. I like everything he's ever done.

Why doesn't he resonate with me or much of the American public? I can tell you I don't want to give the nomination to someone "because he deserves it" Dooes the name Bob Dole sound familiar to you?

I can't say for sure, but Kerry has struck me as someone patrician who talks down to his public, acs like he's running as an incumbent Senator, and doesn't seem to have "it". Just my opinion, and I'd still work and vote for him if he gets the nomination.

But how in the hell that could happen, I can't tell you.

[mitchum]

28. Because there are a lot of really stupid ahistorical people amongst us

and life isn't fair

[JVS]

33. That was over 30 years ago. That's why

[sendero]

35. Give back?

He got to serve in Congress forever, which is probably the root of his little 'problem', what else does he want?

Oh, the presidency? Not likely.

[molly]

44. He "got" to go to Viet Nam too and he "got" to be on Nixon's

hit list - he "got" to fight for all us little people - what else does he want?

He's got at least 100 times more public service than the guy with the big poll numbers. Why does your guy qualify? What does HE want? Or, better yet, what does he deserve?

[cosmicdot]

39. who is Larry Atkins?

is this link from a blog?

[WiseMen]

48. Respected Freelance Writer/Commentator

“Larry Atkins [e-mail] is a lawyer and freelance writer who lives in Philadelphia. He has written over 175 Op-Eds and essays for major publications across the country, including the Baltimore Sun, Chicago Tribune, National Public Radio, and Philadelphia Inquirer.

The article posted originally appeared in the Phila. Daily News.

[wakfs]

54. Reading this thread it has occurred to me

Is it any wonder why the Republicans always win?

[dave29]

57. A wise person once told me

It's not a gift if you expect anything in return.

[sasquatch]

59. IWR ring a bell

That is what gave the Bush bastard his authority to start his God awful oil war, which cost us a soldier a day. That's also what lost us International support to fight International terrorism.

[GOPBasher]

64. I do feel bad for John Kerry.

I really feel bad for him. Overall, he's been a strong leftist for decades. He's almost always been on the right side of every issue, and he's accomplished a great deal. However, his campaign has failed to ignite. The IWR vote is probably a big reason, among other things. If he gets beaten badly in NH, I really think he should step aside and just try to help the party win in 2004, anyway he can. Bear in mind, Kerry was my number 1 choice at one point.

[quaker bill]

66. Read it in Rolling Stone

He voted in the way he felt was best for the country.

In essence he felt that giving Shrub* (who he knows better personally than any of us) the authority to conduct a unilateral pre-emptive strike on a sovereign nation that was no measurable threat to the US "was best for the country".

He just didn't think shrub* would "f*** it up" this badly.

In other words he concluded that the war on Iraq was a good idea and that the only problem is that Shrub* is a poor manager.

This is simply wrong. The war was a profoundly stupid and illegal idea that has been managed +/- as well as a profoundly stupid idea could have been. It was a profoundly stupid idea, in part, because all of the problems we have seen so far were predicted or easily predictable. Good management is no substitute for good policy.

This was bad policy, Bob Graham got up in the well of the Senate and said as much before the vote. The information to be able to know better than to vote for IWR was widely available.

What's up with the anti-war movement? We wrote to John Kerry and asked him to support us and oppose IWR. (I know that I and many of my friends did at least.) His vote was his answer.

[Bandit]

68. Thank you John

I will give him his due. And he is due. I will vote for him if he is the nominee. I disagree with his stance on some things such as James Baker in his Administration but 95% of what he stands for I can agree with. I don't think he is going to make it now though. Two weeks ago I was sure he would pull it off but no longer. I now feel he will be a good man that lost his chance because of his inside connections. He waited entirely too long to break free and speak from his heart. Too little too late and it's too damn bad.

[killbotfactory]

69. He failed the leadership test with the Iraq war

Tough shit.

[Sensitivity]

70. Kerry's IWR Speach Same as for Clinton Policy in 1998.

I think Kerry has never really supported the war.
But since the mid-90's he has argued
that the U.S. has to work to resolve the danger and tragedy of the Post Gulf War Iraq. Thousands of children were dying from the sanctions against Sadaam and the "containment" bombing continued.

We should give him the credit for being consistent.

[Octafish]

71. Your horse failed the bravery test.

No shit.

Coward Dean — backbone enough for the moguls of Vale.

[Scott Lee]

80. POOP.

[Octafish]

82. Truth hurts.

Not only did Ho-Ho spend the winter skiing the moguls of Vale, he poured concrete for beer money. That's no shit.

[Scott Lee]

92. POOP.

[Octafish]

99. Dean's back was healthy enough to ski Vale all winter.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean the majority of Americans don't care. It's a legitimate issue post 9-11.

If you want a candidate who KNOWS what to do under fire, who has the COURAGE to serve others, who WILL be there when the going gets rough, vote John Kerry.

[dreissig]

73. A Statement of Values

Kerry's IWR vote wasn't a tactical error, it was a statement of what he believes in. He thought he had the nomination locked in, and was looking ahead to the general election. Kerry cared more about himself and his career than he did about thousands of innocent people. Well those are his values. I can't support a guy like that.

[sandnsea]

75. He cared about you

He cared about getting nuclear and bio/chem weapons off the planet. He cared about a UN strong enough to start doing that. He cared about keeping people safe from massive terrorist attacks with these weapons. If people understood what he's been doing for the last 6 years on this issue, they'd understand his vote. But not only do they not know, they don't even want to know. That's the part that's beyond frustrating. People DON'T want to know. They want to keep their own biased opinions, no matter how many times you show the truth of that vote. I just don't understand why.

[ima_sinnic]

81. Kerry waited far too long to come out really swinging against Bush

. . . he seemed to start with a feeling of entitlement and while he was sitting back on his laurels and coming across as wishy-washy Dean trumped him by springing into definite antiBush action and never looking back. Kerry also wasted a couple or 3 months in reactionary obsessing about Dean's successes. That negativity and divisiveness made Kerry look like he just didn't have anything original to offer and had to bash Dean to feel good about himself. Not to mention some staff shakeups that didn't look good at all. He has only in the last couple of weeks started acting "presidential" and with a clearly defined platform instead of obsessed and ranting against Dean.

[blm]

83. According to Conason, Kerry was the one bashing Bush hardest summer 2002.

And when Dean was given the opportunity on MTP to back up Kerry's criticism of Bush on his military strategy in Afghanistan, Dean backed up Bush, instead.

Dean stepped up criticism of Kerry and the other Democrats in late January and continued even while Kerry was off the campaign trail in recovery from his cancer surgery.

Dean's success has been rooted in the focus of the media on Dean and the process and that the media accepted and pushed a storyline on Dean that didn't examine his positions more closely and hold him accountable for those inconsistencies.

[stickdog]

86. Judas was closest to Jesus. Why isn't he is heaven? (nt)

[LuminousX]

87. Kerry Doesn't Take Risks

And the greatest risk he needed to take was renouncing his IWR vote while the war was still looking good to people. Dean was up denouncing it even as we waltzed into Baghdad. That is taking a risk.

[WiseMen]

88. KERRY CAME OUT HARD AGAINST THE WAR LONG BEFORE IT STARTED

Please look at Kerry's speeches on the Senate floor. He promised to oppose Bush if he broke his promise to work through the U.N. and he came out so strong against Bush's "rush to War" as soon as he saw
Bush ignoring the U.N. Security Council.

He call for a change of "regime in Washington" and was smeared as being MR. French by the neocons.

[Scott Lee]

93. But he voted for it. That's hard to reconcile.

[sandnsea]

97. It's easy to reconcile

If people consider the words of every single candidate instead of throwing out a vote as some sort of phony litmus test that means nothing in the scheme of things. Was it you who said you never do this?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

89. JK is a good man..

thanks for posting this..

Kick for JK


TWL

[fabius]

96. John Kerry is a good man.

If his prospects pick up I'll vote for him.

I don't live in Iowa and New Hampshire. However.

Dean has given us a way to participate even out here in Oregon.

My first three choices after Al Gore dropped out in order were:

Kucinich

Dean

Kerry

I picked Dean because he is revitalizing the Democratic party. At least the "outsider" wing of it. He's going to win. He's got a money machine to beat KKKarl Rove's machine. OK? To me this isn't just about the war. It's about reclaiming democracy.

Dean won the competition to figure out first that the Bushites just can't be trusted on anything at all.

[UTUSN]

100. Kick for This Thread as Case Study

1- How an avalance of information and facts cannot convert determined others.

2- How a single-issue (IWR) can defeat a whole agenda, like the Church sharing 99 out of 100 social justice issues with Dems but boiling everything down to that ONE (abortion)----even when the single issue is distorted.

3- Despite SANTAYANA's hoary truism about repeating-history, we have here, "What he did 30 years ago don't matter, TODAY matters." GEPHARDT said, "Politics is the only job where people want to hire somebody who's never done it before (think plumbing, brain surgery)."

KERRY-EDWARDS

[Octafish]

101. Kerry IS the Real Deal.

:kick: