The DLC attacks Dean and Gore

[slinkerwink]

No Time For a Coronation

Former Vice President Al Gore's surprise endorsement of Gov. Howard
Dean is definitely just what the Doctor ordered, giving him some
extended "buzz," some nice joint appearances, and some serious street cred among political professionals and the chattering classes of Washington. Indeed, much of the Democratic establishment is rushing to crown Dean as the nominee.

But let's remember: nobody's voted yet. Dean's got a ways to go in
persuading a majority of Democrats that he's the guy. And as the
self-described "people-powered" candidate, he should be the last
candidate around to want any sort of coronation by the Democratic
establishment or the punditry, before the people have weighed in.

Moreover, Dean is a candidate who really does need some tempering
through political competition. There are legitimate questions about
his candidacy that need answering: Can he offer a positive vision
for governing as well as a blistering critique of Bush? Can he
persuade as well as energize? Is the excitement of his core
supporters contagious to those swing voters that he has so often
dismissed as irrelevant? Can the Dean campaign diversify,
transcending its early origins as a sort of therapy group for upscale liberals? Will the candidate learn to take the cultural issues that many voters care passionately about more seriously? Can he become more self-disciplined in his off-the-cuff remarks, which are storing up treasure for Republicans in the fall? If the answers to these questions are negative, then it would be nice to know before Democrats entrust him with the tough challenge of trying to unseat George W. Bush.

And then there are the issues. Dean has rightly boasted of a fine
centrist record as governor of Vermont, but his light-on-issues,
heavy-on-anger presidential effort has borne little resemblance to
that record.

He's flip-flopped on trade, adopting a Kucinich-Lite position that
repudiates the Clinton legacy of trade expansion and a centuries-old
Democratic tradition of support for open trade. Can he explain what
he would do to make his "fair trade" rhetoric actually work for a
stronger economy? He's the one candidate who's called for repeal of
the No Child Left Behind education reform initiative, thrilling anti-
testing zealots who don't seem to mind failing schools for poor and
minority kids. What's his vision for education reform? In his
fervor to define himself not by principle, but by maximum opposition
to Bush, he's refused to countenance letting the middle class keep
the tax cuts that accompanied the big bonanza for the wealthy. Does
he have a plan for making taxes fairer and lower for hard-working
middle-class families?

And most of all, Gov. Dean has risen to prominence by battening on
hostility to the war in Iraq. Can he lay out a comprehensive,
internationalist vision for foreign policy and national security that is tougher and smarter than Bush's?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that puts to rest arguments that Dean is now a member of the DLC or that Gore is still a member of DLC since the DLC just came out with guns blasting at Dean. And why the heck do they think that Bush's internationalist vision for foreign policy and national security is the best? Bush's truly screwed that up. Hold on, let me :puke: on the DLC. By the way, I got it in a e-mail.

here's the link: http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252252

I also got it in a e-mail so I reserve the right to use it in its entirety in this post.

[Hep]

1. But Gore is the DLC's baby!

AntiDean heads EXPLODE.

[slinkerwink]

3. isn't that the question?

;-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. DLC Gore and DLC Dean vs. DLC Clinton and DLC Clark

ho-hum, the insiders are fighting.

[Hep]

9. DLC Dean

Care to back it up?

Never mind, I know the answer.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. Dean's record is clear, and now that he's endorsed by DLC Gore

well, you get the picture! It's fun to pretend to be an outsider (or pretend to be a liberal for that matter). Hope they are paying you well! :evilgrin: :wave:

[Hep]

20. It's so clear

that you can't provide one example. Thanks for nothing as usual.

Funny though, The DLC has hated Dean since day one and criticizes Gore today, and your interpretation? DLC Dean and DLC Gore.

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to see what's fucked up about that.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. you don't really know anything about the DLC do you?

You really have no clue about Dean's policies and his long standing support of every DLC policy do you? You really don't understand Gore's role in the DLC do you? Did you just get involved in the Democratic party with Dean? It would seem so. Lots of college kids were fooled by Dean's rhetorical jabs at the "insiders" but those of us who have been around a while have seen the song and dance before.

Gloat all you want, Dean looks like he'll wian the nomination. Glad to hear that Dean is honest that if he wins the presidency, he plans on keeping the US occupying Iraq for years to come. I promise I'll tell the starry-eyed Dean suckers "I told you so"

:)

[Hep]

25. Famous words

"You really don't know, you really don't know"

"I can't tell you"

Like I said, thanks for nothing.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

32. You want examples of Dean supporting DLC policies?

Okay, here you go.

DLC: Pro-NAFTA
Dean: Pro-NAFTA

DLC: Stay in Iraq until the "job is finished" (imperialism)
Dean: Stay in Iraq until the "job is finished" (imperialism)

DLC: Pro-Privatization
Dean: Pro-Privatization

DLC: Cut social programs to balance budget
Dean: Cut social programs to balance budget

should I go on?

[Hep]

57. Before you go on

expand. Maybe you think five word summaries count as arguments. Not outside of middle school. Remember, it's the RIGHT WING who relies on thinking in terms of black and white, lets not fall into that trap.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. nice way to dodge the issues!

Following Dean's example? :) Some in the DLC have been against Dean, some are for Dean. When it comes to the issues, they are all the same.

"Maybe you think five word summaries count as arguments. Not outside of middle school."

Yeah, got it, you know it's true, but can't admit it.

[Hep]

64. Provide an issue!

Speaking of dodging!

I engage in dialog in paragraph form, not outline form. If you can't provide more than one phrase to argue a point, you're not ready to debate this at an adult level.

I'll wait.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

73. I just listed four issues, you - none

I listed issues that most informed, adult, Democrats know about and talk about, but you'd rather avoid the issues and call me names. I understand why - Dean makes great speeches, but on the issues he's hardly better than Lieberman.

What name will you call me next?

Can you provide any evidence that Dean disagrees with the DLC on many if any issues?

[Hep]

75. Still waiting for anything of value

You listed four topics. You didn't even demonstrate your point. When are you going to do that? I mean, I have to go home soon, and I'd love to see you actually make an argument. DLC-ice is cold, Dean- ice is cold.

You're right! They ARE in cahoots!

[markus]

77. WCTV: Who is going to get elected who doesn't support some of these

Dean is pro-privitization of what. Of Social Security and Medicare? I don't think so. Vermont Yankee? A lot of people were taken in my power deregulation, including one ex-governor of California.

I don't think we can get just airlift the troops out of Iraq, unless you're prepared to leave it to radioactive for anyone to occupy. We will all have to pay for Bush's War for a long time to come.

Has Dean cut social programs to balance the budget? What governor (Democratic or Republcan) has not? It really sucks, but the abilities of states to tax business and not lose jobs is significantly limited.

Man, were you a researcher for Bush 1 working on the Dukakis file?

I've been around the block for a while, and I am counting on Dean to energize disaffected voters in a large way, and along the way get rid of Bush.

Using the Generation Dean movement to try and shift Congress has at least as much chance of working to recapture Congress as the DNC's 2002 plan, now, doesn' it?

[slinkerwink]

33. did you even read the post?

and Dean already said that US would have a long-term presence in Iraq. Why do you think us Dean supporters are stupid?

[CWebster]

48. from the "Progressive"

"Dean is not a member of the Democratic Leadership Council, the group founded in 1985 to promote centrism within the party, but he reads their literature and says they have some good ideas.

"At the beginning I think it was very good, because I think the party wasn't winning elections because we were too far to the left," he says. "Now I think the party has moved too far to the right."


http://www.progressive.org/may03/rc0503.html

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. Has Dean ever called himself a "liberal"

...or is that the name that the Bush-PNAC media has labelled him with?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

58. Why don't you ask them?

Apparently, the general has some real issues with Dean's policies not being sufficiently DLC too:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2003-11-19-clark-dean_x.htm

[Hep]

59. What horrible logic

When I talk about the degree to which some people will sacrifice what they know is right in the effort to trash Dean, this is what I'm talking about.

Tell me why exactly you think that agreeing with the DLC on an issue or two is by nature the same thing as being a DLC'er.

If the DLC is for reproductive rights and so am I, does that make me a DLC shill? According to you...

Frankly, I appreciate objectivity. And I appreciate anyone who won't rule out an option because a less than stellar organization supports it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. an issue or two? You mean every major issue?

"When I talk about the degree to which some people will sacrifice what they know is right in the effort to trash Dean, this is what I'm talking about."

Perhaps you should think about how people will sacrifice on every issue, over and over again, for some juicy campaign rhetoric? Dean has a long, consistent record of a DLC "New Democrat" neo-liberal. His stand on the DLC hasn't changed. It's not just one or two issues, it's the entire economy that Dean agrees with the DLC on.

It's too bad that Dean isn't running an honest campaign, as an insider, a centrist, with the backing of plenty of other insiders in the Democratic party - including Mr DLC himself, Al Gore.

Dean calling himself an "outsider" and "anti-DLC" is just as much a joke as if Kerry did it.

[Hep]

68. So tell me

if Dean lines up with the DLC on ALL OF THE MAJOR ISSUES as you claim, why does the DLC hate Dean?

PLEASE explain that. I can't wait to hear it.

[CWebster]

69. Which is, of course, why the DLC feels the need to attack him

so much.

[slinkerwink]

76. yep

[loyalsister]

86. Thanks

If we used the above logic, DK could be part of the Religious right. Having spent most of his congressional career anti-choice, voting for the flag burning amendment, and being overtly religious. He's not, but if we used the above pigeon-holing tools, he could be.
I can appreciate discomfort\reservations based on a persons pet issues, but the blanket generalizations are unfounded.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. yeah we should all get behind the BFEE Nader instead

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

78. Hey, don't forget DLC Kerry , DLC Lieberman and DLC Sharpton

I think if you're running , you're pretty much a democratic insider

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

81. Sharpton isn't DLC

I don't think Kerry is either (not sure, I thought Kerry was one of the old timer non-DLC like Kennedy and Byrd, could be wrong).

[Capn Sunshine]

82. you're probably right

I was making a point about insiders more than anything.
I don't fear the DLC but understand WCTV's trepidation.

[movonne]

11. I think the word is "WAS"....Gore is the DLC's baby

[tom_paine]

2. Jesus, the DLC makes me nauseous.

Do they think their strategy of bootlicking the Busheviks is any better?

[slinkerwink]

6. they've lost a lot of elections! I wouldn't trust the DLC now

[Rose Siding]

14. We'll hear some interesting defense of the DLC...

Just watch.

[polpilot]

52. There are more wadded panties at the DLC than at a Victoria's Secrets

warehouse.

Dean '04...

[ibegurpard]

4. And the "nobody's voted yet" meme appears again

Coming from the DLC this time. Considering how much I've heard that from Clark supporters it makes me wonder who is the DLC/establishment candidate.

Once again: An endorsement is MEANT to give a boost to someone. There is no purpose for one after a nominee has already been chosen.

edit for spelling

[QC]

66. Repeatedly calling it a "meme"

(what an utterly pretentious word) does not make it false.

Hard as it might be to believe, there are still some of us who believe, in our clumsy, old-fashioned way, that the rank-and-file members of the party should have some say in choosing nominees. Some of us even resent being told to STFU and get in line before we've even had a chance to vote.

[ibegurpard]

79. No one told you to STFU and get in line.

And if you re-read Gore's speech without that enormous chip on your shoulder you would see that. An endorsement is part of the political process. An endorsement from Gore was an enormous coup that ANY one of the candidates would have more than happy to get despite your protestations otherwise and continued attempts to flame the manufactured anger.

[SahaleArm]

84. No that was Al Gore's 11th Commandment *nm*

[Justice]

5. Email From Whom?

[La_Serpiente]

8. link

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252252

[killbotfactory]

10. Dean earned his spot at the top

No coronation needed.

Suck it up losers.

[slinkerwink]

13. this is the END of the DLC

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. And it can't end too soon for me.

What do we need with "Democrats (who)Love Corporations" anyway?

[HereSince1628]

35. We can only hope...

I really do dislike the DLC even as a concept. Elitist prigs.

[Capn Sunshine]

80. Hey!

come to one of OUR DLC parties before you call US prigs.
We don't even crook our pinkies when drinking demi tasse.
but, we've always been rebels.

[Terwilliger]

12. ~/. Soooour.....can I have your grapes? la la la ~/.

:eyes:

[oasis]

16. Attack OR analysis, depending on one's bias.

:-)

[Jim Sagle]

21. Analysis? More like assholysis.

[OhioStateProgressive]

17. Kucinich lite....hahahahahahaaaaa

i would say Dr. Deans positions are so far away from Dennis positions that the comparison is idiotic

The DLC is a sad group, and when they get their way, we will have a UniParty to be sure

[Terwilliger]

27. I agree with that

Dean is no Kucinich, no matter who supports him (Gore is not exactly a liberal himself)

[HereSince1628]

30. Dean and Kucinich far apart? How's come they are my 1 & 2

Maybe I'm schizophrenic or something but as I work their comments and webpages I end up scoring them within a few points of my personal positions, and depending on the day one is ahead of the other.

[OhioStateProgressive]

43. well, I can't explain your choices:)

i am merely stating that there are a few KEY differences between the two, namely Deans refusal to consider getting rid of NAFTA and the WTO

at least enough of a difference that the DLC is nuts to thikn this will hold water

in actuality, Kucinich supporters will find it offensive, because we don't believe Dr. Dean is anywhere near as Progressive as Dennis, and Dean supporters should be angry too, because it is an unfair and untrue assessment of their candidate

[Armstead]

18. Well I guess this means Dean's poll numbers go up again

Those hapless DLC nitwits don't seem to realize that whenever they bash Dean, his stock goes up in the eyes of many who are fed up with their tepid, corporate recipie, and their losing strategy of trying to exorcise liberalism from the Democratic Party.

[La_Serpiente]

19. :WTF;

He's flip-flopped on trade, adopting a Kucinich-Lite position that repudiates the Clinton legacy of trade expansion and a centuries-old Democratic tradition of support for open trade.

:wtf: is that supposed to mean? That is the kind of mentality that purges the Greens from the party. They better get their act together or else Nader might just run if they continue to say lines like that.

[slinkerwink]

22. that's why the DLC is just f---ed up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The DLC/DNC moneybags/insiders are panicking.

The grassroots Democrats might just take the party back. They'll probably be telling us we should vote for CowBooties to save the Democratic Party next.

[jpgray]

28. Nonsense--Dean is gaining considerable insider support

He has received endorsements from MANY established Democratic moneymakers, and of course many congresspeople and Al Gore. The DLC leadership may be panicking, but the spear-carriers are going to go for the frontrunner.

[slinkerwink]

34. and that's what makes me happy is that the leadership will be left in the

dust.

[jpgray]

36. They'll come around eventually as well

Their boy is Joe, and to a lesser extent Gephardt. If Iowa goes poorly for Gep, you may see some slightly more obsequious memos from the DLC leadership.

[Scott Lee]

41. And the look on their faces will be priceless.

Imagine yourselves in their place. They'll be up against a wall: support this guy Dean or be seen as an ineffectual, losing apparatus pushing insiders.

Oh the picture. The DLC raising Howard Dean's hand in the nomination. Their faces will resemble very much someone who's trying to pass a pine cone.

[jpgray]

45. Their goals aren't totally dissimilar--their strategies are

So the DLC will have some victories if Dean is the nominee--they agree more than they disagree. However if he wins, it pretty much puts paid to their "third way" ideal and how that is somehow better at winning elections. And that is definitely to the good.

[jpgray]

26. LOL, it's biased enough, but many of the points hit home

Trust me, a bash paper on any of our candidates would be about as bad.

[eissa]

38. This is such bs

Worse yet, I just read an article in the WP on this topic; says Washington insiders are "worried" that a Dean candidancy would hurt their hopes for congressional wins......:wtf:?!?! How many wins have they had lately?! Who's to blame for that?! The DLC can kiss my ass.

[Cheswick2.0]

39. this is "democratic leadership"?

attacking democratic candidates? I don't think all members of the DLC are evil, but the leadership of the DLC is obviously insane.

[CWebster]

40. Who needs Republicans....

when the Democrats work for Rove

[janx]

44. I don't see this as being as bad as previous attacks.

It may not be an attack at all.

Compared to the previous memos from From et al., this almost sounds as if they are conceding. They are "beginning to ask questions."


They know they have no choice now. They're backing down.

[Gringo]

47. The DLC has been a resounding failure

Listening to them has lost us the House, the Senate, and now the White House. DLCer Bill Clinton won the white house, but I fervently believe that was more a product of his incredible charisma and intelligence, and not his right-leaning policies. (Republicans percieved him as an ultra-lib due to health-care and gays in the military, anyway.) The DLC was useful in getting corporate donations, but that's even less of a factor after McCain Feingold.

Dean is leading the way to a new way for our party, one that listens more to the people than to the corporations. I don't think this way excludes those further to the right or the left, but it does exclude those who are all about toeing the corporate line.

[slinkerwink]

50. it's about personality, charisma, and the grassroots in this election

[slinkerwink]

51. it's about personality, charisma, and the grassroots in this election

[Q]

49. The DLC loves Bush's* war...

...and it looks like they're actually defending it against anti-war Democrats.

[Phelan]

53. How are you suprised

The Clintonian Democrats have for years courted the middle...you know the thing that won us 3 popular votes in a row.

Dean and Gore are saying "screw the swing voters" i.e. independents and moderates of all sorts (Clintonian Republicans and War Democrats). We will energize our base and it will lead us to victory... Or at least thats how the NY Times editorial page and yesterdays article in TIME interpreted it.

If that is really the direction of the campaign...wow Dean may win the election but the only person he will destroy in the election will be Nader whose voters he will bring back to the democrats at the expense of the votes of the moderates among us.

I'm glad that we are preparing to fight for the votes we already have instead of trying to steal some from the Republicans. That combined with electoral re-districting (Bush states from the last election gained electoral votes)

Those people in the DLC...they win elections for a living...does it not concern anybody that they are terrified?

[TopesJunkie]

54. It is funny --

Especially with Dean raising money for Congressional candidates! What information do they need to know that this guy is there for them like no other candidate?

[BootinUp]

55. Just Curious

How many folks here in this thread think Clinton was a traitor to the democratic party?

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

56. well, Clinton wasn't a traitor----but his saying he'd vote for the war

kind of lowered him in my eyes.

[BootinUp]

61. Said he would have voted for the war or leverage for inspections?

Really this is off-topic for this thread though...

Cheers

[slinkerwink]

62. for the war.....

that's what Clinton said in canada.

[BootinUp]

72. Did you read this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=869659

The answer can only be:
1. no
2. yes, but I am the master at spin

[slinkerwink]

63. you're the one that brought Clinton up, heh

[RPG-7]

67. Don't play kingmaker!

That's our job! :eyes:

They really are scum...

[slinkerwink]

70. yes, they are, and they keep trashing Dean, the front-runner at every turn

[realFedUp]

71. Wonder who Penn'd that one....

Put his Mark on it...

[truthspeaker]

74. with leaders like these...

Under the DLC's leadership, Democrats have lost ground in every national election since 1998. It has been almost ten years since the Republicans took the house in 1994 and the DLC has yet to respond. Why should any democrat care what they think about anything? As far as I'm concerned an attack from the DLC is a badge of honor.

[depakid]

83. There are few things that could shore up my Dean support more

than continued attacks from the DLC. In my opinion, these people are in worse than Republicans- they're corrupt, greedy, shortsighted and disingenuous- and bear the primary responsibility for the disintegration of the party and what it once stood for.

If I had the money, I'd be donating to the Dean campaign every single time they issued a public statement like this.

[slinkerwink]

85. same here too