Dean objects to excess time spent on Iraq during debate.

[phirili]

Dean's problem is that his fibs are increasingly conspicuous. He accused Koppel of spending the debate's first 75 minutes on Iraq, a statement whose falsity was obvious to anyone who had watched from the beginning. Dean also blamed Fox News for having prompted him to talk about the "theory" that Bush had been warned beforehand about 9/11, when in fact Dean had broached that idea on NPR's Diane Rehm Show. Memo to Dean: Clean up your accuracy, or you'll go the way of the guy who just endorsed you

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092286/

Why is Iraq not a hot topic for Dean?

[Skwmom]

1. Personalizing policy differences

During the debate I laughed when Dean slammed Bush for the following because I've also read the very same thing about Dean:

"His most interesting line was a complaint that Bush "personalizes policy difference, and that is a fatal mistake when you're running … a state or a country." Isn't Dean famous for personalizing policy differences?"

[Hep]

2. Damn him

Did you see the baby blood creeiping down the corner of his mouth?

Note to Dean: When you eat babies before a debate, use a wet-nap.

[mikehiggins]

3. Props to Dennis

for ripping Koppel a new asshole about polls and money. If Clark wins I hope he establishes a Secretary for Reality Checking and gives the job to Dennis the K.

Why don't more of the candidates take charge and stop being docile chimps for these media whores? This debate was fun and largely civil but the fact remains that after 24 joint appearances the novelty is done with. Maybe the candidates should all get together and put on a musical or something.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. Kucinich kicked ass - and talked about issues that were ignored

Not only did he challenge the often-used excuse for American imperialism - "The other guy got us in (Korea/Vietnam/Iraq) but now we're stuck." Dennis says no, 90 days to hand over to the UN, and bring our troops home to defend our country, their job. Of course most of the UN troops will be Americans, but the difference is crucial.

Kucinich got the longest, loudest, most sustained applause when he called the media right out - any links to the transcripts, I want to quote him.

[HFishbine]

20. Amen! Amen! Amen!

Kucinich's response to Kopel's ridiculous question was absolutley outstanding. (Paraphrasing) "No, I want the American public to see how the media is guiding this election..." was a dagger straight to the truth and a well-deserved slam at Kopel.

This is THE reason why candidates shouldn't drop out of the race early. This is the benefit we derive from a crowded field -- a variety of opinion and voices that occassionally hit a bull's eye.

Kerry's "If I were less polite, I'd tell you where to stick your polls," was also right on.

Although Kopel was an embarrassment to himself, I couldn't have been more proud of our canidates last night.

[phirili]

22. Kucinich seems to be getting stronger and stronger

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

27. Kucinich does debates very well, and TV appearances in general

It's shocking the way people in the media have OPENLY said they won't cover Kucinich too much because they don't like his ideas - there was a thread in GD that quoted a number of them. Even after being ignored and baited consistently, he was still able to bring up the issues - corporate media, bringing our troops home, and single payer health care.

If there were weekly, informative debates on TV, Kucinich's numbers would shoot up - I can certainly see why the media won't touch him.

[Racenut20]

4. Don't worry Governor

When you win the nomination (God Forbid) and debate BushCo, you will be talking about your time working with "planned parenthood", not Iraq, or the economy, or the environment.

[Hep]

5. Wow

And now the lefties talk about planned parenthood like it isn't a GREAT organization. If Dean has to focus on that, he'll have NO problems.

[sfecap]

9. "Lefties"? That's an assumption that may be wrong...

n/t

[Hep]

11. True enough

I'm amazed at the lengths people will go to trash Dean. They talk ahit about Molly Ivins, about Al Gore, and now about Planned Parenthood.

[Selwynn]

30. Planned Parenthood is a polarizing subject

Just because we love it and we're right doesn't mean its a positive for a guy trying to win an election. It isn't. It's a polarizing issue on which less than half the country sees in a positve way. Now, we're right and they're wrong - but just being right doesn't win you the presidency.

[Hep]

41. It's not polarizing

if you don't let the right control the debate.

[CWebster]

13. Great...you could work for the other side

sounds like.

[Ramsey]

31. No they won't

Because Dean has said that when they talk about devisive issues like abortion, that he is going to respond by talking about issues that unite us, like education and health care.

[adadem]

6. This morning

I overheard a conversation between 4 older (retired type) guys in a restaurant. They were talking about the articles in USA Today and were overjoyed with the Gore endorsement...one said "we've got it locked up now". As the converstion continued it was clear they were pugs. Downed my coffee and had to get out of there. Wanted to cry because, in my heart, I don't believe Dean can beat bush.

Let's try to be positive...it ain't over til the last ballot is cast...in the primary, that is.

[bitchkitty]

8. Same meme - different name.

I was recently accused of repeating Republican talking points when I expressed concern over Wesley Clark's endorsement and fundraising for the Republicans. What exactly is it that you're doing?

[Hep]

10. Be positive, leave the group

Let's not try to be positive. Let's try to act like we;re being positive while truly being negative. Let's act like we would LIKE for Dean to be able to win, but he just can't. And for the love of GOD, let's NOT provide any clear logic behind out idiotic predictions.

[el_gato]

14. i don't believe you "story"

sounds phoney to me

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. Are we allowed to call other posters here LIARS?

Is that allowed?

[Hep]

49. I'm telling!

n/t

[CWebster]

15. Great

The right tells you who can win and who is electible and you jump to their tune.

[HFishbine]

21. Weepy Weepy

Some posters must be downright dehydrated from all the crying supposedly going on. Here's an idea. Buck up and go campaign for somebody.

[AWD]

48. They can't do that....

...it'd mean getting off their asses and doing something instead of whining and crying all the time.

[bitchkitty]

7. If I'm not mistaken,

he said 45 minutes, not 75. I could be wrong, but if I'm not, I guess that makes you a liar, right? That appears to be your logic. So he misspoke, big freaking deal.

[KittyWampus]

23. He Did NOT "Misspeak". He Looked At His Watch, Invoked Bush Sr.

for the second time that night (god only knows why) and then tried to do a "Dennis"... trying to call out the media after Dennis had already done so earlier in the debate.

Dean looked like a fool when he was corrected by Koppel.

[bitchkitty]

25. In your eyes, maybe.

And in the eyes of all the wonderful folks that frequent forums like Lucianne.com or FreeRepublic.

So did he say 75 minutes or 45 minutes. If it was 45, why the lie?

[phirili]

26. See the link please

[bitchkitty]

34. Thank you -

I was wrong. Now, did I lie? Or was I simply mistaken?

This issue is stupid. It reminds me of the Republicans scurrying around digging up dirt on Clinton.

Adios, amigos!

[CWebster]

12. The beginning was about why and who wasn't dropping out

The issues part was devoted almost exclusively to Iraq. Dean was right.

[nannygoat]

17. Quit parroting the repuke and mediawhores line that

Gore had problems with accuracy or lying. Most, if not all of the right-wing spew about Gore has been debunked. Check out the Daily Howler whose Bob Somerby has been documenting the trashing of Gore for years:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/

[frustrated_lefty]

18. "Why is Iraq not a hot topic for Dean?"

There's no longer any need for him to drive the issue home. He's made his point with regard to Iraq, and pursuing it further would make him appear rabid.

Further, the first 75 minutes were devoted to the Gore endorsement, funding, and Iraq. He was right to object, 15 minutes devoted to domestic policy is simply lame.

[KittyWampus]

24. Yes, But Dean Didn't SAY "We Only Have 15 minutes to talk Domestic Policy"

What he ACTUALLY said- after looking at his watch and invoking Bush Sr. was- We've spent 1hour 45 minutes talking about Iraq.

He was wrong... and Koppel called him on it.

It's noone's fault but Dean's that Dean couldn't phrase his comment to reflect the actual reality that had JUST transpired.

[phirili]

29. Dean then said 1 hour 15 minutes, to agai misstate the reality

[phirili]

28. I think its because Dean's exit strategy endorses the Iraq war, unlike

Kucunich's exit strategy that is consistent with his anti-war position.

[mmonk]

19. I agree with Dean

I would like more substantive discussion on all issues, not just the war and civil unions. It would help all candidates including Clark who can finally show his breadth of policy issues.

[Rose Siding]

32. Fox did promt Dean to talk about his Rehm comments

and they mischaracterized them. He set them straight, his point being that until an unhindered investigation is done, there will be speculative theories.

I don't see how your use of the word "blamed" applies.

[kerryistheanswer]

33. Dean's hypocrisy on Iraq

How does Dean get away with such statements? It's become a credibility gap with him. Aside from falsely inflating the amount of discussion on Iraq - his entire campaign started on the war. Deaniacs can't deny this - it's what got people fired up. Now that he's in the lead, he belittles the others by downplaying the importance of foreign policy in this year's election.

I heard the Diane Rehm interview and Dean mentioned his theory there first. He's a great politician to bring up the much-despised Fox and turn it into a joke.

Tell the truth Howard!

[Q]

42. How about a sense of priority?

- We live in a country where the so-called 'president' and CIC can lie his ass off and get away with it...and you're bitching about minor points like this concerning Democratic candidates?

- Bush* can drive this nation into war with lies and a Dem candidate is a 'liar' for an inaccuracte debate time?

- You're either insincere or intentionally trying to unfairly flame Dem candidates.

[Ramsey]

35. That's a bit harsh

The first complaint, that Dean got the amount of time spent on Iraq wrong was just a simple mistatement. Koppel was correcting people all night, interrupting and generally acting like an ass. If anybody looked bad, it was him. Dean was just trying to say that there were other important domestic issues to discuss, which were given short shrift given that Koppel focused on bashing Dean and asking people why they were raising enough money and when would they drop out.

As the Slate article points "These were the last 90 debating minutes of the year—a crucial opportunity for every candidate other than Dean—and Koppel wasted 30 of those minutes on questions barely worthy of aides in bars. At the end, he congratulated himself, instructing the candidates, "What you need every once in a while is someone up here who ticks you off a little bit. You're much better when you're angry." The candidates then went to the spin room and practically barfed about the questions they'd been asked."

The second complaint I think is something of a meme. I haven't listened to the Diane Rehm show, but in the Fox interview, Dean did indeed say essentially that the extreme secrecy of the White House engendered mistrust and conspiracy theories, not that he himself endorsed those theories. Which is true. Why is that a bad thing to say?

[kerryistheanswer]

36. Nothing wrong with saying it - just don't spin it

Ramsey -

Dean should say it but he always seems to take it back - which would be fine - if he wasn't constantly scolding the "washington insiders".

Don't you see what's happening with perception taking over reality? I

I would respect Dean more if he practiced what he preaches.

[Ramsey]

43. It's a risky line

I think the whole accusation of Bush about lying or knowing is a bit risky. While I certainly believe it, i don't know how well it plays to a less partisan crowd. Dean has the right idea about taking on the bullshit emanating from the White House decisively. I am not sure this is the best tack to take.

Obviously I don't have any inside view, but maybe they are regretting the whole line. If I were on the team, I'd advise they drop or revise this line of criticism. There are plenty of concrete examples of how Bush is obstructing the investigation into 9-11. Questioning why is a valid criticism. You don't need to go to the conspiracy theories.

I still think Dean was just trying to make the point that it is the WH secrecy that engenders these reactions, but maybe he should tone that down.

[phirili]

38. Let's judge Dean on what he says. Not what U think Dean should say

[Ramsey]

40. I thought that is what I DID do

I did say what Dean said, in the Fox interview.

:shrug:

[Q]

37. I call bullshit on this thread...

- What is it with you that you have to spread falsehoods of the right wing? Suggesting that Gore lied or was 'inaccurate' in his statements is an outright fabrication of a media beholden to Repubicans.

- It's been proven time and again that the American media misrepresented and misquoted Gore as part of a smear campaign meant to make Bush* look better by comparison.

- I have to wonder which side you're working for as you spread suspicion and doubt about Democrats?

[phirili]

39. What exactly is your point? We are examining what Dean said and what

we heard.

[Q]

44. You're misrepresenting the facts...

...and then innocently suggest you're only trying to 'examine' what was said.

- My 'point' is that I'm tried of this crap. It's reprehensible to suggest Gore lost because he 'lied' or wasn't 'accurate' in his statements. You are spreading the lies of the right when you make such false statements about Democrats.

[depakid]

45. Agreed

Not that it makes any difference to the Deanophobes....

[phirili]

46. I never suggested Gore lost because he lied. U R using that to shield Dean

My point on this thread is that Dean does not want to discuss how to deal with Iraq NOW. Can you deal with that?

Dean is weak on Iraq exit strategy IMO, because it totally contradicts his supposed anti-war position.