DU disconnect? Why is Hillary hated here?

[ringmastery]

According to polls, most democrats love her. That's not the case at DU. Every time someone mentions her name, tons of people bash her here. You would think this is the Freeper board.

[Shrek]

1. Maybe the Iraq war vote?

Just guessing, maybe it's something else.

[papau]

61. For many at DU, she is greatly admired.

IG will always post a negative at the sound of her name - and a few others will do so also, but in the 38000 that make up DU - I suspect that like Hillary folks out number the dislike by more than 10 to 1, and are 100 to 1 against the "hate Hillary" crowd.

Yet for 80% or better of the folks - again my best guess - Hillary is not an issue one way or another.

"DU disconnect? Why is Hillary hated here? " - is I suspect not a valid question.

Perhaps better would be "why are votes in favor of the IWR the kiss of death for some folks at DU".

[Jacobin]

2. IWR Vote?

That one pissed me off supremely.

And her continued support of IraqNam conquest, phase II

[ringmastery]

4. was she alone in the iraq war vote?

The vast majority of the party voted for the war. Do you hate 75% of democrats?

[redqueen]

16. Please

The 'vast majority' did not vote for the war.

Nice spin, but old and disproven.

[carolinayellowdog]

22. 57% of congressional Dems voted NO!

126 of 208 Democrats in the House, 21 of 50 in the Senate.

[Jacobin]

31. thanks for setting the record straight on that. Very important

[Scott Lee]

26. Does it matter?

And yes, the 75% of democrats in congress who voted for war were completely wrong.

[Jacobin]

30. Hate? No. Won't support for higher office? Fucking A

Got any draft age kids?

I have two

[demsrule4life]

3. I would have to say

that she does not give a shit about the party, only herself. I could be wrong, but it is only my opinion.

[radwriter0555]

10. Based on what? What do you base that opinion on?

Seriously.

Any specific policies or positions of hers that you specifically hate her for?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. I'm convinced that quite a few Freepers post on DU...

...and that some real DU posters are just weak enough to agree with the crap posted by the Freepers.

[Catherine Vincent]

69. I agree.

[beyurslf]

68. HRC has worked her entire life for children and this country

You may not like her, and you may say she is looking out for herself, but how can you back up that she doesn't "give a shit about the party"?

[KG]

5. lots of hyper-informed people on DU

that understand what the clintons really stand for.

[SahaleArm]

38. This place hardly stands for the well informed.

I've never seen more conspiricy theories percolate than from right here on DU.

[RandomKoolzip]

45. A conspiracy theory has to start somewhere, right?

What if Watergate had been relegated to the "just another leftist conspiracy theory" pile?

[redqueen]

72. If it had happened now, it would be

Just as not many talk about Selection 2000, "Watergate" would be relegated to alternative news outlets.

But hey, 'pragamatism' and 'realism' are in vogue now. Gotta conform to be cool.

[radwriter0555]

6. Because the RW media still controls thought processes, and she's been

bashed for years for being a strong, accomplished outspoken woman.

Habits are hard to break.

I think she's absolutely fantastic and would make a brilliant President and World Leader.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

40. she would make a great socially liberal Republican, ala Whitman

The apple doesn't fall far...

[demsrule4life]

43. And how would she be qualified

to be a world leader? being a strong, accomplished outspoken woman does not make her qualified to be a world leader. She is great at making a man turn from a beer drinking football watcher to president, but I dont see how that would make her fit to be a world leader. I would have to say that she would be a great consultant, but not much else.

[CWebster]

7. Political junkies of the progressive stripe

are more well-informed about Clinton on the issues than is generally reported in the pop culture press where she is a public figure.

[Cleita]

8. I don't hate Hillary, but because of her Senate

voting record, I have cooled significantly in my support of her.

[sendero]

81. there you go..

... that is exactly how I feel about her.

[Sean Reynolds]

9. I really never liked her.

The Iraq War vote sealed it.

Plus it boiled over when she said she would want to send more troops over to Iraq.

[radwriter0555]

12. Why don't you like her? Policies? Personality?And specifically

what about either?

[ringmastery]

15. well we have a mess

If we don't clean it up, Iraq could spiral out of control and become a bigger problem than it was before the war.

The war sucked. But it's done and we have to deal with the consequences. How do you propose we do that?

[sendero]

80. since you asked...

... I'll tell you. Come Home. It doesn't matter how long we stay there, we are not going to set up a "democracy" in that factionalized country.

All we are doing is wasting more men and women and more dollars. There is not a military solution to every problem in the world, just as every social problem cannot be solved by "throwing money at it".

Those that say "yeah well it was wrong to go in but now that we're there... etc...etc..." - that would be a valid point if there was more than a 5% chance we will ever really accomplish anything. IMHO, there isn't. And my doctor thinks so too :) (not Dean, really, my doctor)

[Jerseycoa]

51. Is this not Dean's position, then?

Increase size of Army

More troops to Iraq and Afghanistan; promises world's "strongest military

Source: CNN Election 2004

Is it an error or has his position changed since this they did this guide?

Thanks.

[Gman]

78. And that has what to do with putting people back to work,

the wiping out of overtime pay, insurance for children and the elderly, and everything else that's wrong with this country because of Bush?

Get some real priorities.

[robbedvoter]

11. Not hated here. Deanies perceive her as the enemy- hate is their thing

I love her less since the Iraq vote. hate is for W.
They used to hate Gore too - the DLC puppet. Until yesterday.

[Catfish]

18. I must have missed something

Why do some Dean supporters hate her? I imagine she'll fully back whoever gets the nomination.

[Gman]

79. Dean supporters are a big reason I don't support Dean

I prefer much better company. I wouldn't expect Deanie Boppers to like Hillary because she's (thankfully) not part of the Dean borg.

[RandomKoolzip]

19. Wow, well-placed flame-bait! Bravo!

In the subject line and everything. Yeah, we're all so consumed with hate it's a wonder we can type...

SHit, just when I thought there was some attempt at unifying the party...

[Padraig18]

29. Nice content-free flame bait.

"Most" of us don't hate her, but you DID manage to get your smear in, any way. Nice job! *applause* :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

33. And all Blacks can sing and dance too, right?

I just thought I'd chime in with your petty bigotries. Tell us more about what "all of us" Deanies believe, ok?

[ecstatic]

59. excuse me?

why are you posting such hateful lies?

[beyurslf]

70. Dean Supporter and think HRC IS GREAT.

Would support her for higher office in an instant!

[Catfish]

13. I admire her

I disagreed with the Iraq vote but overall I find her very smart, tough in a good way, hard working, and she's put up with more crap and personal attacks than most politicians. I don't expect to agree with anyone on every issue.

[RandomKoolzip]

14. I like her, but...

The Iraq war vote pissed me off, and every freeper and every talk show host in the WORLD is obsessed with her....It's like they're on autopilot or something. I think our tacit approval (with reservations)of her speaks quiet volumes, while the right's continual deafening damnation of her says more about them than her.

[MissMarple]

17. I think she's a fine senator. But if she ran for president, well...

that would cause some problems. I don't think she could pull enough of the conservative vote, they don't trust her because of the whole anti-Clinton debacle. The Republicans smeared both of them. So, she needs to build her own credibility.

[info being]

20. I recently listened to a speach of hers...

disagreed with everything she said. I think she's a Republican. Not a great strategy for her...seeing that Republicans hate her. She's done. Stick a fork in her.

[Scott Lee]

21. I don't hate her - I just don't support her anymore.

Reason number one - her proWar vote.

Reason number two - Pandering to the Patriot Act and the "Terror war" Remember it was Hillary Clinton who either invented, or parroted, the infamous phrase "You're either with us, or the terrorists".



Hillary Clinton is becoming a classic example of what's wrong with the Democrats.

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

49. I don't trust her, it's as simple as that.....

Politics is politics and I have little faith in almost all of them. However, my litmus test is pretty simple: Do they help or hurt the Democratic Party?

The addiction to power manifests itself in all politicians to a certain degree. But, my Democratic Party is about advancing progressive issues. If I thought that was Hillary's primary concern she would have my support. Hillary is about Hillary and the sooner we distance ourselves from her style of politics the faster we can repair the damage her and her cronies have done to our party.

Before you start flaming away, understand that I am a party loyalist and have long ago concluded that the latest politician in vogue doesn't mean a hill of beans if we aren't doing what we need to do to win elections. Just win baby, just win.

[Scott Lee]

56. I wish we had more Democrats like you

[5thGenDemocrat]

23. I don't hate Hillary

She's pretty much a cipher to me.
I live in Michigan. Up until now, as a New York senator, she has little effect on my life. She's popular enough in NY state to win an election. Aside from that, she is no more or less on my radar screen than any other one of 98 senators (excluding Levin and Stabenow, who DO affect my life directly).
But I don't hate her. Don't think of her much, actually.
John
She seems to be dedicated to her job and is pretty good at it. Beyond that, for now, I think the only people Hillary need concern herself with are New York state voters.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. I don't hate Hillary...I like her

and her husband!

[eissa]

25. I like her, but

I would not support her run for the presidency; not yet at least. Nothing personal; I just think she should prove herself further.

[rbnyc]

27. I don't hate her but she makes me mad.

I do feel betrayed by her. She campaigned heavilly in the LGBT community, then signed DOMA. I also remember listening to her during the "debate" on the War Resolution. She said so many things that made it sound like she understood, that made it sound like she was about to vote No. I was sitting on my stairs, hanging on her words, hoping, and then her last sentence was something like, "Despite everything I just said, I'm going to vote Yes anyway, and just hope Bush doesn't use the power I'm giving him."

There are a lot of things I like about her, but I think she's way too conservative and calculated.

[Donna Zen]

28. Dean is the only person in the party

who is liked. And now of course the man who took our votes away, Al Gore: he would rather crown kings than make an honest run.

[Forkboy]

39. bitter much?

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. She's right. n/t

[lastliberalintexas]

64. No she's not

All that Gore did was issue a freaking endorsement. I don't see him out there holding guns to people's heads *forbidding* them from voting for their choice in the primaries. If you do (as apparently Donna Zen does), then I'd have to say that's a bit delusional.

[Donna Zen]

67. Gore did not just issue an endorsement.

Just as Clinton could never just issue an endorsement. Just as Carter could not just issue and endorsement.

At least face the truth of what has happened.

Gore knew what this would do...stop the primaries; and he did it for that very reason. Anyone who cares about democracy v Dean worship might care about this tacky anti-democratic move by a man who called dubya "his president." And Gore's a friggin "DLC" hawk. Gore voted for the first "Gulf War" when the Democrats were holding out for accountability. He broke ranks and screwed many people.

Hilary, even considering a smattering of her votes, is consistently more liberal than Dean or Gore. And yet people on this forum are very rude when speaking about her. She is far more knowledgable than Dean and she has stood by this party.

Many on this board treat her like scum, although their opinions are often based on rightwing rags, while Dean can do no wrong even faced with stark, hard evidence to the contrary including his position on the war.

Hilary is scorned because she is not Dean.

[truthspeaker]

71. that's an interesting fantasy world you live in

I prefer sci-fi myself but to each his own.

But back in the real world, the primaries haven't been called off, and people are treating Gore's endorsement as just that - one politician endorsing another, as happens all the time in every political race in the country.

[Donna Zen]

75. fantasy world

Gore's MOAB is not being treated as "just" an endorsement. You duplicitous attitude does not recommend you. Everyone is saying the primary is now over, and I happen to agree.

Defend his right to do it, but to pretend that he just did an average endorsement, is indeed the things that fantasy is made of. Gore essentially decided who is running for the Dem nominee. What a sad joke this entire mess is, including the people who can't face up to it.

Enjoy your primary season...ooops your guy won!

[Droopy]

32. I don't hate Hillary

I hardly know anything about her in regards of where she stands on the issues.

Hell, I don't hate anybody.

[corporatewhore]

34. iraq afghanistan israel

just another business as usual democrat

[maxanne]

35. I don't hate her

but I don't love her, either. She's a centrist/right leaning Dem who has pandered to big money and bent over too much for the Bushistas.

She is no liberal. I'm not fond of the Republican wing of the party.

[arwalden]

36. You Start Off With A FALSE PREMISE...

and the rest speaks for itself.

-- Allen

P.S. It's not nice to compare DU members to Freepers.

[pscot]

37. I don't hate Hillary

She might even make a good president. She wouldn't be my first choice. I don't like her DLC pedigree and I particularly don't like her Iraq war vote.

41. I don't hate Hillary, I hate royalty

There are over 250 Million people in the United States. Theoretically, the founders fought to get rid of kings.
George and George * are too much like kings. Father and son.

We already had one Clinton. Let's give some other folks a chance.

[beyurslf]

76. we already had one clinton....

It's a good thing those who voted back in the 1930's didn't feel the same way about a man named Roosevelt.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Just another cheap sell-out.

Like some notorious others she voted for what she (mis)percieved as the "safe" vote on Iraq.

It would be nice to see that vote remembered when she comes up for reelection and is challenged by a liberal.

[oasis]

44. Misoginy? Could it be that Hillary's "getting to big for her breeches"?

[Eloriel]

46. I tried and tried for 12 - 13 years to like her and finally gave up

earlier this year. The IWR vote didn't help.

[goodhue]

47. not hated

Only hate the fact that pundits, right-wingers and a few true believers constantly talk about Hilary in 04 as if it has some basis in reality.

She's great for an establishment centrist.

[bvar22]

48. I Respect and Admire Hillary.

I loved the way she conducted herself with CLASS and DIGNITY when she was (and still is) the target of the republican slime machine. Initially, I thought she was a little over-the-top when she first identified the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but since then, I have come to see that she was correct in her observations.

I was overjoyed when she was elected Senator of New York, and believed that liberals would have an effective weapon against the Wal-Martization of America. I was wrong.

Her first vote as Senator was a vote supporting BIG MONEY; she voted with the republicans in support of legislation written by MBNA to make bankruptcy MORE difficult for the individual citizen. I was stunned by this vote, and double stunned when I learned that MBNA was a major contribtor to her campaign. This piece of PRO-CORPO legislation would adversly affect single parent women, especially those recently divorced, a constituency she claimed to lead.

Since that vote, I have followed her voting record, and she mostly votes conservative DLC... BIG MONEY. She voted with the bush* supporters to Invade Iraq; she voted with the bush* supporters for the Patriot Act, she supports the NeoCons in their illegal and immoral war.

I don't HATE Hillary, but I am very disappointed. My above post is not BASHING. In response to your request, I have posted SPECIFIC FACTS which are the reasons I don't support Hillary ( or anyone from the republican wing of the Democratic Party---the DLC). If you want more FACTS, I suggest you examine her voting record, and cross index with contributions from her WEALTHY CPORPORATE SPONSORS.

I RESPECT and ADMIRE Hillary Clinton. She conducts herself with CLASS and DIGNITY. She has raised a wonderful duaghter under difficult circumstances. She simply does not represent me or my vision of America...America by the people for the people!

[Pastiche423]

50. What's up w/this hate shit?

It is quite easy to dislike someone's voting record, but that does not equate to hate.

Hillary lost my support on October 10, 2002 when she spoke eloquently on the reasons why we should not invade Iraq, then turned around and voted yes.

[IrateCitizen]

52. She says one thing and does another

If you listen to her speak to a liberal-leaning audience, she comes across as some kind of progressive champion. But the REALITY of her votes tells a different story.

She's bought and paid for by the DLC, and their corporate backers.

Also, as a NYer, I'm not overly enamored with the idea of being represented by someone who really isn't a NYer. Her anointment by Daniel Patrick Moynahan was just another example of the top-heavy nature of New York machine politics.

[Gringo]

54. Don't hate her at all, but I'd be the first to criticize her if...

she sells out in the name of political expediency as she did with the IWR. I was disappointed in her and in Bill for backing that garbage.

That being said, I'm also the first to defend her from right-wingers who call her "Hitlery", a lesbian, a bad mother, and ultra-liberal, b***h, etc. She is none of those things.

I don't think she would be a good candidate on the national stage, though. Right-wingers have an almost dranged hatred for her, and many centrist folks percieve her as a bit shrill and grating.

I think she'd make a decent president, but It would be a hard sell to the rest of the country.

[BiggJawn]

55. HUH???? Wattchutalkinabout, Willis?

I LOVE Hillary! I'd be her "boy-toy" if she'd ask!
But I don't want her running for president in 2004. No.

There is enough "Clinton hatred" going around in this country (a lot of it from the pundits in the "Liberal" RW-owned Press)That the ReTHUGs want her to run. They'd get everyone going on "Blow-Job Fever, Part DEUX" and the chimp would skate into office before anyone realized he was there.

I love Hillary enough that I don't want to see her put through what Rove has planned for her.

[ecstatic]

57. Many DUers have been unconciously brainwashed by FOX News and other right

wing media sources. I thought the idea was to simply watch those shows to keep track of what the enemy was doing. But I guess even the strongest mind can be harmed from consistently watching such garbage. I only hope that some of us will do some soul searching and understand that we cannot let the right wing dictate to us how we should feel or who we should support.

[Rowdyboy]

58. Boy am I considered a right-winger on DU

I liked Hilary Clinton from the beginning. Thought she did a great job as First Lady (other than bungling health care). Was proud to see she was given a chance to show off her abilities in the senate. While in the senate she has cast votes I disagreed with. So have senators Kennedy, Feingold, Byrd, Durbin, and the other 41 Democrats. Paul Wellstone cast some votes I disagreed with before his tragic death. How many anti-DOMA votes did we have now?

I respect any woman who has worked very hard to achieve a position of power. Once having achieved it, it appears her major sin to DU'ers is voting her mind. I don't rule anyone out of play for one or two votes. But then I don't expect perfection.

[truthspeaker]

60. I have seen very little bashing of her on DU

I dislike her because she's a carpetbagger and I'm a former resident of New York State - I think she would have made a great Senator from Arkansas. But in my book that only puts her down on the level with most politicians. There are certainly many worse than her, and few better. What I don't understand is why so many Dems have such a positive view of her. IMHO she's nothing special - not particularly bad, not particularly good. Her only experience as an elected official is 3 years in the Senate. I don't know what she did as "first lady", and I don't really care - I vote for a president, not a president's spouse. Maybe the Dem love for her is a reaction against the completely unjustified right-wing hatred of her.

[ramapo]

63. I don't hate her

I just think she'd make a lousy national candidate. I'm happy she became Senator.

[ACK]

65. I like her

The woman has guts. A couple of good Dems voted the wrong way on the war. I refuse to let my entire vision of person tainted by one vote that turned out to be a mistake.

I would repeat would vote for her for higher office.

[jpgpenn]

66. NOT hated by me!

[LeahMira]

73. I certainly don't hate Senator Clinton

I think she is intelligent and articulate and passionate about principles. She was on Meet the Press Sunday, and she presented herself extremely well, IMO.

(When Newt followed her, it was such a difference! I can't stand that person.)

I don't think, however, that even with her experience as First Lady she has what is needed to run for the Presidency, and in spite of that I think that were she to declare as a candidate she would maybe have the nomination hands down. In many ways I don't think she's quite ready, and another way I don't want to see her being trashed the way her husband was. Seems to me that there's only so much anyone should have to take.

Senator Clinton is a young woman and she can assess the situation in 2008 or 2012, but for now she is doing a great job as New York State's junior senator and as the former First Lady.

[redqueen]

74. Not hated, but not revered

Your comparison is all wrong. Freepers are dedicated to mindless devotion. They don't question, they follow.

Conversely, Democrats (usually) think carefully about their support. Therefore, you won't see many fawning over a politician, especially if they have demonstrated much in the way of rightwingishness, as HRC has with respect to her support for IWR, her fiscal conservatism, etc.

If this were a freeperish board, we would all love her and be devoted to setting her on a pedestal, with no thought given as to her actual credentials or whether she'd earned her place.

[Cocoa]

77. your premise is false

I've pointed out a DU disconnect the other way around than you're describing. I think she gets a pass for her hawkishness, while people like Joe Biden get the treatment you describe.

The most recent is her appearance on "Meet the Press" Sunday, rave reviews all around.

[ComerPerro]

82. Here is the thing about Hillary

She is NOT hated here.

BUT

You will find that a very slim minority would support her running for President (which she is not).

The main reason that we think this way isn't about any hatred we may harbor against Hillary.

Actually, it has to do with FReeper hatred of Hillary. If she were to run, she would provide vaulable fuel for the GOP to send fundraising letters and to turn out the vote.