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[aquart]

1. Did you see the Barbie grandparents set?

Clark looks like Ken with grey hair.

And don't ask his supporters. How would they know?

Tell the man to gain fifteen pounds. He looks like he's still in the box.

[eileen_d]

5. Please post a picture of yourself.

I need a new dartboard.

[pruner]

15. I find it helps to have a sense of humor around here lately…

and that (Ken doll comment) was pretty fucking funny.

[eileen_d]

16. I have a fine sense of humor

but I also have a keen sense of smell... particularly when it comes to bullshit.

Do you think jokes comparing Dean to Jim Jones are funny? I don't either. And I haven't even had any of the Koolaid.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I'll Bet He Looks Like Abe Vigoda....

NT

[TexasPatriot]

56. bad can of worms

i've seen a lot of pictures of Dean where he looks a LOT like Chris Farley's thinner brother, doing a 'i live in a van down by the river' routine.

[JaySherman]

2. IMO he entered the race very late. Probably too late.

And he appeared to trip over himself a few times at first. Clark was still getting his feet wet while the other candidates were already swimming laps. He hasn't started to look really convincing or strong until recently. But Dean has also been picking up steam of late, so it hasn't helped him much. With Dean looking stronger than ever, I don't think there's any way Clark catches him.

[Must_B_Free]

7. He doesn't have fire.

you gotta burn fire

[Gloria]

3. On the Arne Arneson radio show that was aired on CSPAN a few

days ago from New Hampshire, one of the panel said that if Clark had the organization, he would be going like gangbusters.

I'm afraid he's had a lot of ground to catch up...he's done amazingly well that he went from 0 to where he is from September.

[eileen_d]

4. I dunno... hasn't even been three months yet

September 17th, to be exact. Once he wins a primary he'll definitely be "flaming" (to use your analogy)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. the media blackout

Clark's main draw, aside from all those who are already dems, would be the crossover repub military vote. Who do the Repubs get their news from? FOX! What have the Repubs at Fox done, they have decided that Clark will remain out of site and out of mind. That's it in a nutshell. Did you see the interview between Tony Snow and Wesley Clark on Fox, perhaps the most dramatic Democratic fire I have ever seen. Ya think Clark's gonna be back on Fox after that one? No, because for all practical purposes Clark is the epitome of what the average, real, Republican wants - it's just that Faux is too dedicated to Bush to expose to its viewers that there is a more viable alternative.

[Mountainman]

8. When ever Clark is on TV all we see here is WOW!

I don't see the same thing when Dean is on the tube. Clark is like the turtle catching up with the hare. Just sit there and enjoy your naptime. When you wake up and see yourself in the dust don't ask why.

[slinkerwink]

9. but isn't there a media blackout on Clark by the GOP?

;-)

[Mountainman]

14. I think the GOP controlled media has learned they can't hurt Clark

Witness Hard Ball tonight. Clark is not the kind of candidate the media can belittle on the air. They haven't figured how to handle him so maybe they will leave him alone.

I think that in media circles, Clark commands respect and there is hesitancy to try bashing him on the air.

[meow mix]

67. its a 90-10 thing

not a complete absence..
and you know that, but are pretending not too. sounds like rush.

[Toucano]

10. Oh, there's fire Pete!

And it ain't coming from Satan :)

I know Clark's supporters feel very strongly about him. There's a real committment. Just look at all the horrible Dean/Clark bashing threads. If you dare...(because they're sometimes nasty; not because you're afraid LOL!)

It think the apparent lack of momentum is just due to the timing. It's close to the holidays, and many people's minds are on other things right now.

For example:
Gas station attendant yesterday upon seeing my Clark shirt: "Who's Clark and what is he running for?"

Me: Wesley Clark is the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO and retired General who is running for President of the United States.

Attendant: Oh. Against George Bush? I hate Bush.

I don't mean to deny that the Dean Machine isn't picking up steam because it is. But Wes is just getting started. I have personally picked up about a dozen converts in the last week or so.

Here in Polifreakville, the race is well underway, but among the normals, it's just getting started.

[5thGenDemocrat]

11. I think if Clark had to run as a third party candidate

He'd scare the pants off of both Dean and Dopey.
John
Thinking aloud.

[Toucano]

12. Bite your tongue!

or fingertips, as the case may be!:)

3rd party candidates just split the anti-incumbent vote.

On edit:

But I see your point.

[Myra]

13. I disagree that a man who has been in the race two months...

And is seen at the most formidable threat to Dean,
and has built a huge following and collected a ton
of money from ordinary folk, has "failed to catch fire."

He's come a helluva long way in two months.

This in spite of the blatant media promotion of Dean as
the annointed one, and the constant smears and distortion
of General Clark's words and record.

The main attacks Dean's had to deal with is:

1-He's too liberal!
(A huge distortion given that he was a very conservate gov.)
2-He won't unseal records!
(Big whoop, like Bush will?)
3-He's too angry!
(Which likely helps him given our legit anger at the fascists.)
4-He's the Rovian misdirection candidate!
(Which Clark is accused of as well. Hell, about everyone but
Kucinich is accused of that.)


I'm curious why you start so many threads to solicit opinions
of DUers PeteNYC. They're great, and they're very civil, I'm just curious. Are you just that rare animal who actually likes to listen :), or is there another reason you so methodically poll us?

[Name removed]

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[Myra]

73. Thanks PeteNYC, appreciate the reply

One can learn a lot from DU...

[Myra]

17. If polls are ever to be believed...

GALLUP POLL: Dean 25%, Clark 17%, Gep. 13%, Lieb. 10%

Not bad for a two month old campaign.
If General Clark hasn't caught on "fire," he's sure generating sparks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=855274

[imax2268]

18. Well...

I can tell you this...it's my belief that the little video that was released showing him praising BushCo and his cronies was damaging to him...I like the man...I respect his military background...but that is the one thing that turned me off from him...I know that people change their minds over time but I think that really hurt him...

I would like to see him get into the VP spot...a Dean/Clark ticket would be a sure thing...!

[Myra]

20. Oh yeah, that undoubtedly damaged him imax2268.

I know people who will never trust him 'cause of that.
And I think it's understandable.
I mostly trust him (85%), but don't like those remarks of his.
I tend to think that he was talking like a military man's
expected to talk about the Commander*, but I may be rationalizing.

[mmonk]

47. Yes

the repubs know how to play dems.

[Hypoxis]

19. You can't enter the game in the 6th inning with the other team up 15-0

and expect to be the MVP.

[slinkerwink]

21. welcome to DU!!!

:hi:

[asthmaticeog]

32. Sure you can.

Ask a relief pitcher - a surprisingly apt metaphor, I suspect we'll see.

[FDRrocks]

22. He ran and had the most instant support

out of any candidate.

He isn't blacked out of the media. Kucinich and Moseley Braun are.

Clark is affable to the system, apparently.

[SahaleArm]

25. Yeah the press absolutely adores Clark?

:eyes:

[dfong63]

30. but Clark's support dropped after the initial spurt

... and Clark conceded the battle in IA.

[drfemoe]

23. not a Clark supporter . but .

Clark is not a politician. He chose the highest office in the land for his maiden voyage. No big surprise that it isn't the top campaign (to date). He is also new to the democratic party.

He has a glaring investment banker/lobbyist/pro-neocon corporate connection history, in addition to his distinguished military career.

I suspect he wouldn't be running if we were not a nation at war. I'm not sure about this, so you can fill me in, but when did the draft Clark movement begin? Before he was a military commentator on CNN, was anyone calling for him to run? (I could (and will) do some research on this, but haven't so far.) As far as I can tell, he is running solely on his military career. (I know about the *issues* he allegedly proposes. I've just never heard Clark actually articulate them.) He never seems to have a direct answer. (my perception)

I sincerely hope that should Clark not get the nod for democratic candidate, he will pursue other options for public service. I'm sure he would have many opportunities.

The late start didn't help him because it indicated a lack of commitment, or inability to make a decision, or grandstanding ... or at least confusion. He still seems confused a lot of the time. But he is on unfamiliar turf. His handlers might be doing more harm than good. He would probably do better if he with his own instincts.

FWIW

[brainshrub]

38. Good analysis

I still think that Clark is running for the Vice-Presidency. If he gets to be president, that would be a bonus.

When Clark first jumped into the race I was rather upset. I saw him as a pseudo-Democrat interloper. But, having talked to Clark supporters on DU, I am much more favorably inclined toward him now.

I'm supporting Dean, but if Clark wins the nomination, I will support him 100%. I think a Dean/Clark ticket would be unbeatable.

[mmonk]

48. The repubs know to play dems

No where does Clark have the neocon agenda. Karl Rove loves you guys.

[Name removed]

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[SahaleArm]

26. Which candidate majored in flip-flop?

And which 'leads' the field?

[Name removed]

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[SahaleArm]

29. How about some specifics?

IWR? From 10/10/2002:

The answer to all these questions is yes, if we have the time. Well, we do. The key issue about Iraq has never been whether weshould act if Saddam doesn't comply with U.N. resolutions anddisarm. Rather, the problems are how we should act, and when. As for the how, the answer is clear--multilaterally, with friends and allies, with every possible effort to avoid the appearance of yet another Christian and Jewish stab at an Islamic country, with force as a last resort, and with a post-conflict plan in place to assure that the consequences of our action do not supercharge the al-Qaeda recruiting machine. As for the when, let's take the time to plan, organize and do the whole job the right way. This will only take a few more weeks, and it's important. It's not just about winning a war--it's also about winning the peace.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/timep.iraq.viewpoints.tm/index.html

Something else?

[Cheswick2.0]

28. you mean like Kerry?

Clark comes from nowhere and still he has more momentum than Kerry who is burning like a wet wool blanket.
I am not officially a Clark supporter, but I wouldn't say he has failed to catch fire.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Clark IS on fire.

He entered the race in Sept. and is on Dean's heels in the polls. Clark is going to surprise some people...me thinks. :7

[jumptheshadow]

34. He's done well enough

He would probably be the clear frontrunner if he had declared several months earlier, had hired a full staff, and had a chance to use his effective fundraising skills.

He would be doing better if it hadn't been for the airplane interview.

Also, he's an intellectual who tends to think in shades of gray and he has to focus his speeches and his responses.

However, he's doing incredibly well for his relatively short time in the race.

[TomNickell]

35. I think, there's really not much interest yet.....

Dean has got much of the activist crowd. The general public just isn't really aware that there is a contest.

Not a single vote cast yet, remember?

Previously the primaries have been spread over 6 months and candidates would 'catch fire' during the campaigning and debates. -This- time we are wondering why candidates aren't 'catching fire' weeks before NH.

I'm OK with Dean, but it is important that there be actual campaigning and voting before we settle on a nominee.

[CWebster]

36. homoeroticism

or vicarious fantasies of the General's stars.

;-)

[OKNancy]

41. Sometimes it's really hard what to make of

statements like this.

Since I'm a woman, homoeroticism doesn't come into play, but if I was a man, do you think that calling Clark's appeal "homoerotic" is an insult? Since most of your posts seem to try for the insult, I would think that was your point.

[CWebster]

45. No, I don't see it as an insult.( It just is).

at least not like the insult you directed at me on another thread, for which I had the civil state of mind to not respond to.

;-)

[OKNancy]

46. Oh really?

and what would that be? Perhaps where I said that your tone might be responsible for some hard feelings?

[CWebster]

63. Well yeah, thanks for reminding me

I actually forgot the specifics but recognized it as an insult. Glad you remembered and recognized it for what it was too.

;-)

[Terwilliger]

52. let's not get into worship baiting here

there's plenty on both sides

[jumptheshadow]

60. What about the lesbians?

Who support Clark? Seems your theory doesn't hold water there. :hippie:

[LTR]

37. A little bit o' history

Exactly twelve years ago, Bill Clinton was in the middle of the pack of nominees looking up at an 800lb gorilla named Paul Tsongas.

Who?

Give the General some time. It's not a race, it's a marathon. Many early candidates tend to blow all their ammo early. We'll see what happens come February.

Yesterday on "Hardball" was a BIG step in the right direction.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. That warm welcome

he received on Hardball was very telling! The best part was it ticked Tweety off! :7

[izzie]

40. Generals and Dem do not like each other?

Clark does seem like a good man.

[Cornus]

42. One Possible Answer

Unlike the people here at DU, most voters are complacent and do not even know who the candidates are.

I discovered this fact this week...I'm collecting signatures from registered dems to get Wesley Clark placed on the ballot for the primary in NY. I'm using a list of registered dem voters and more than 90% of the people I approached to sign the petition had never even heard of Wesley Clark nor had they heard of most of the other candidates.

So at this stage of the process, I don't think any blame can be placed on Clark, not the media, nor his campaign. Most people just don't care yet, but I think that as Nov. 2004 draws closer the choice will be either Clark or Dean...just MHO.

[TreasonousBastard]

43. How has he not caught fire?

Absolutely unknown a couple of months ago and now toward the top of the polls.

Everywhere he goes he draws adoring crowds, and when he speaks he collects converts by the busload and bushel.

Pristina, Shelton's sour grapes, Waco, is he rally a Democrat, is he a Hillary stalking horse... all exercises at grasping at straws.

It's not 35,000 DU members he has to impress, it's 10 million or so primary voters, thousands of ward heelers and Democratic machine operatives, and about 60 million general election voters.

Looks like he's doing OK there.

[poskonig]

44. No clarity on important issues.

How Clark entered the race combined with his posture afterwards explains his position in the polls.

Clark usually offers platitudes on important issues, which is suspicious, given his degrees in economics, political science, and philosophy. Other candidates do this too to some extent, but given Clark's deliberate ambiguity about whether he was a Republican or not before he entered, combined with what he did in the past, getting a simple clarity on issues nailed is of utmost importance to his campaign.

Plus Clark protests too much about the whether-he-supported-the-war issue, which only encourages the media to hound him on this topic.

When Clark entered the race, he had red hot attention but decided to have a moderate image to get centrists on board rather than go for the party base. This was a big strategic mistake, perhaps fatal when you have to rumble with Gephardt, Dean, & co. in a Democratic party. But since Lehane trashed Kerry's campaign, it is not a surprise he is hurting Clark's.

I'm not a Clark supporter, but that's my two cents.

[LoneStarLiberal]

49. Hardball Fire!

If you look at the growth in his campaign, the rapid turnaround from inception to stability, and his very compelling message (in my opinion, at least), I'd reason he has caught fire.

Did you get to see any of his Hardball appearance last night? He was excellent. Flat out excellent.

While the Gore endorsement is an advantage for Dean, it by no means sews up the nomination for him.

I think that by the time the primaries roll around we are going to be looking at one of two scenarios: Either the Democratic Party will be, for better or worse, unified around Howard Dean, or there is going to be a schism a mile wide between the Dean faction and the Clark faction, both fairly evenly matched.

I believe Clark's message will continue to spread, probably taking away more votes from Edwards, Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman than it will from Dean; if some kind of anti-Dean block coalesces around Clark that preserves the majority of support from the camps mentioned above, there's going to be one hell of a fun primary season ahead of us!

Who knows? Lots can happen. But to bring this post full circle, I do think that Clark has caught fire and I think he will continue to burn brightly as a beacon for those of us not enthralled by Howard Dean.

By the way to any Dean folks reading this, congrats on the Gore endorsement!

[Imalittleteapot]

57. Clark on Hardball

Despite Gore's endorsement of Dean, after seeing Clark with Tweety last night I went back to his camp. He was excellent...he was on fire, articulate and quick. He triumphantly got Matthews to let him answer the questions. I liked his answers. He said that he is a leader and that's what this country needs. The audience responded very favorably to his statements. I've been sitting on the Dean/Kerry/Clark fence, that has been re-built to be the Dean/Clark fence.

[Tatiana]

50. I think it's probably because of cynicism.

People don't trust him. They can't be sure he's "one of us."

The media has done a good job of painting Clark as a quasi-Republican. The upside to that is that a lot of republicans are starting to like him (a lot of my conservative relatives included). The downside is that the Democratic base finds him too good to be true and they have been burned too many times to trust some claiming to be a Democrat and practicing something totally different in real life (Zell Miller).

I, for one, am willing to take the risk on Clark. But I understand that many others aren't.

[Terwilliger]

51. catch fire?

is that what happens when you're beating the party choice (Kerry) badly in primary polls?

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. I think that he started too late

Some activists had already latched on to other candidates. Additionally, being a candidate for elected office is a lot different that being a general. Clark also made some rookie mistakes that would have been easier to recover from if they had happened last January rather than in September.

[theboss]

54. I go to my mom for answers . . . .

I like Clark. But I trust my mom's instincts on politics. She won a Supreme Court case to win the right to run for public office . . .and won. She knows these things.

Me: Hey, ma, what do you think of Wesley Clark?
Mom: I think he's a Republican.

I don't agree with her, but she's a Democrat who has fought and won bigger battles than most.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

55. I think he's doing well considering

that he got into the game kind of late. If he had announced his candidacy earlier we might be calling him the frontrunner. I think the fact that he's in 2nd place over established candidates with major-league name recognition, some of whom were already candidates a full year before he decided to jump in, speaks volumes. If his candidacy has failed to catch fire, I think it's more just a question of the amount of time he's had.

I think it's still too early to say that his candidacy has or hasn't caught fire yet. I expect both Clintons to endorse him, for one thing, which should give him a major leg up, and also with Gore endorsing Dean some people might examine Dean a little closer and decide he's not the one for them. I'm a Dean supporter and I'm happy about Gore's endorsement, but quite frankly Donna Brazile has her head firmly up her ass if she thinks anything is in the bag yet. The general is a VERY strong candidate, there's still a month before the primaries, it remains to be seen who candidate supporters will back once their guy or gal drops out (if Kerry drops out, for example, I would expect those supporters to go firmly into the Clark column, for example), and so forth. The only people who really haven't caught fire are, in my opinion, Holy Joe and Mosley-Braun, and quite frankly I expected Edwards to get more support than he has so far. But Clark's campaign is far from dead, in my opinion.

[TLM]

58. You can only coast so far on hype...

Clark waited to long to even say he was a democrat... then when he did decide he was running as a dem he starts spewing conservative repuke shit about draft dodging and being against regulation.

Also as I have said over and over, Clark drives off the democratic base... most dems don't want a military leader. The greens and liberals who were pissed off about the actions in Kosovo are not going to support Clark, even if Moore does.

[mmonk]

61. Don't see what you see

as a lack of substance. Will I vote for Howard Dean in the general election? Depends on how much Dean supporters alienate me from the process. And you can bank on that. I'll just support congressional dem races.

[poskonig]

Clark and his supporters are *loyal* Democrats, no?

There are many crazy Clark supporters out there (and we all know who they are) but their obnoxiousness does not obviate the need to remove Bush from office next November.

The same applies to any candidate.

[MessiahRp]

62. I know a lot of people have said the same thing

I am about to say. Clark seems like a great guy he just seems way to vague on non-war related issues. I thought Clark looked great last night, he's very likeable and I'm glad he buried Tweety on the whole "Why did Clinton fire you" BS... but he has to outline more economy and social program based plans with detail. Thus far he gives a broad answer that really hasn't given us or most skeptics the answers to the questions we have.

I like the guy no doubt though. Right now he's the clear second choice for me, being a Kerry guy and all.

Rp

[mmonk]

64. then download all the pdf files

on the issues from the campaign website and see how vague. P.S. I like Kerry as well.

[Lefta Dissenter]

70. He said he wanted to discuss the issues that matter to the country

but Tweety wouldn't let him. I get so frustrated (with the media, not with M.Rp) when people don't think Clark has been specific, because he has SO much to offer, but instead of allowing him to put forth his vision, an interview is just a series of baits and jabs.

If everyone who interviews him focuses entirely on the bullshit from the past, and never ask him about what he wants to DO for our country, then it's a little difficult for him to get his ideas out there. He was TRYING to move on yesterday, but if he had shortcut his answers to Tweety's obsessive questions about the negative opinions of two people from his past (which he has already clarified numerous times), or Tweety's obsession with the Clintons, then Clark would have been accused of evading. He gives thorough answers, and wants to explain things from beginning to end, which annoys the hell out of people like Tweety.

And I'm sick of the constant baiting. How many times are they going to try to get him to slam the other Democrats, and have him not rise to the bait, before they give it up? He maintains the high road, and he gets bashed for doing it.

GIVE IT UP, MOVE ON, GET OVER YOURSELF!!! and ask the guy some serious questions! You'll get some serious answers, and you'll be helping the country learn what this man has to offer. In the meantime, to people like M.Rp, you will have to do your own homework and read Clark's policies on his website www.Clark04.com in order to find out that he is not vague in the least.

GRRRRRRRRrr....... :(

[KoKo]

65. Suspicion of Generals who are used to following Orders. Lack of any

experience with being elected by the people whom he must answer to.

Or, as Molly Ivans said: "Wealthy men who want to start at the top without ever running for their local School Board." (loose paraphrase of her comments about Clark.

[ajacobson]

72. 14% of Presidents elected without previous office

n/t

[Snellius]

66. Generals may be president but they don't make great politicians

Even though he's learning fast, Clark has no experience in getting elected to public office. Washington, Grant, Eisenhower were also 5-star generals but they won their fame in major wars, not really because they convinced a skeptical electorate to vote for them.

[Quahog]

68. He's not angry enough

I think this whole thing about Dean scaring off the Soccer Moms with his anger is bullshit. My wife's a soccer mom, and she is PISSED. She loves Dean.

The other candidates, including Clark, seem to want to talk about beating bush and being president. Dean seems like he really wants to do it, and if it takes busting some heads, so be it. I think there's a tremendous appeal to that firey indignation, and I think it's working for Dean. The only way it will sink him is if it's all he's got, but I don't think that's the case.

[grannylib]

69. I think there is fire there, and I think that his playing some Hardball

with Tweety last night fanned the flames pretty well; it was the largest and loudest crowd they have had for any of the Democratic candidates; I think people are starting to 'get' him and his ideas; he is making himself known.
And he does too blink! I watched specifically for that last night, for all the folks who say he's too controlled and not 'human' enough.

[kodi]

71. clark said it well about bosnia, you need troops on the ground

and he doesn't have the troops on the ground, and it is past time that he did.

had he gotten into the campaign 6 months earlier, perhaps they would be as active as the dean supporters, but it is too late.

and that is the shame, clark would be a better president than dean, but dean has showed that he and his can build a true and powerful campaign organization.

clark has not done that and it is now too late to do so and win the nomination.

actually i like clark a lot, even better than dean, but dean's organization is more effective and is capable of doing more.

sometimes generals dont matter as much as the armies they build, and this is such a time.

too little, too late, too bad.

[tameszu]

74. What do you know?

About Clark's ground troops, I might ask?

Is it any coincidence that Dean supporters' mass support on DU is only matched by Clark's? Or that Clark is the only one who has widespread Meetup support?

[kodi]

76. so tell me about clark's 500,000 strong, i missed that

and let me tell you something, i support clark over dean, and have made it clear on this site, and have given money to each campaign, but unlike some around here like you i dont have my head up my ass when it comes to be objective about things.

you peckerheads are unbelievely arrogant when it comes to critical and pointed comments based on reality about your idols.

it used to be that only the deanies were over the top, but now clarkies like you are every bit as stupid.

[Auntie Bush]

75. Clark has not failed to catch on fire...but

he could be doing bettter if the media hadn't blacked him out.
They did so because he jumped to first place the first couple weeks of the campaign. The media couldn't stand that as they would have no horse race to discuss for the next year...therefore loss of excitement and advertising dollars. It was a financial decision. The corperate media was also scared to death of him beating Bush and feared they'd lose there corperate wellfare...so they gave the blackout order! But the people will demand that he be heard and there will be a horse race before this is over.

[sistersofmercy]

77. I don't know about that but...

I thought he did well this evening especially in the press meet after the debate. He came across as gracious, down to earth and sincerely caring with a drive to make changes and take on bush*. I've always been a bit sceptical about Clark. He got a quite a few positive calls also. ((((((Warning this comment is not for Clark supporters so read no further))))))) He would be good for a VP position or as Secretary of Defense, the latter being preferable IMO.

[opstachuck]

78. because people are mostly made up of water...

i'm sure if you doused him in gasoline that might speed up the process. you deanies are so malicious!