The "day of infamy" on the German front.

[Liberator_Rev]

With all that was happening at Pearl Harbor that day, Americans didn't pay a lot of attention to the little article that appeared on page A-33 of the New York Times on "the day that will live in infamy", but this is part of a long story which culminated in a Roman Catholic historian writing a book in which he characterized the man who was Pope during the World War II as "hitler's Pope" :
=====================================================================


Dec. 7, 1941 (page 33)

WAR PRAYER
FOR REICH

---------------------------------------------------------

Catholic Bishops at Fulda

Ask Blessing and Victory

------------------------------------------------------

by telephone to the New York Times.

FULDA, Germany, Dec. 6 -- The conference of German Catholic Bishops assembled in Fulda has recommended the introduction of a special "war prayer" which is to be read at the beginning and end of all divine services.

    The prayer implores Providence to bless German arms with victory and grant protection to the lives and health of all soldiers.  The Bishops further instructed Catholic clergy to keep and remember in a special Sunday sermon at least once a month German soldiers "on land, on sea and in the air."

    The German Catholic clergy, while strongly objecting to certain aspects of NAZI racial policy, has always taken care to emphasize the duty of every Catholic to his country as loyal Germans in the present war.

---

(Transcribed verbatim and in full for better legibility from microfiche copies.)

of the originals.
=====================================================================
The reason that I make such efforts to expose the moral limitations of the Roman Catholic hierarchy is that the R C hierarchy makes such efforts to pose as paragons of virtue and wisdom in their efforts to expose what THEY CLAIM are the moral limitations of OTHERS, particularly WOMEN, HOMOSEXUALS, and THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PUBLIC OFFICIALS who defend the rights of people to be NON-CATHOLICS !!! Jesus had a great deal of tolerance for "sins of the flesh", but very LITTLE tolerance for the hypocrisy of clerics looking for sins in others while being unable to see much greater sins IN THEMSELVES.

See much, much MORE at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal &
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ClergySins .

[Another Bill C.]

1. All I see in these clips is the standard

form of patriotism that puts God on both sides of a war. As far as the German clergy and population of Germany knew in 1941, the Jews were being put in concentration camps much like the Japanese were segregated here.

The story of the S.S. St. Louis shows that the U.S. and several other countries were at least as culpable in those years as was the RC Church.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html

[Liberator_Rev]

2. We may NEVER know as much about Hitler as the Vatican did.

I doubt that it will ever happen. But if the Vatican were to open its archives, the world would find that the Vatican and the German hieararchy knew infinitely more about what Hitler was up to than you or I can even imagine, with ambassadors to all the important nations and virtual "reporters" in every community of German, tens of millions of Catholics serving in every capacity of the NAZI regime, from the Fuerher himself on down to the grave-diggers of the concentration camps.

Goldhagen's book "Willing Executioners" found that ordinary German citizens not only KNEW what was going on but were WILLING to play whatever role was given to them by the Reich (and blessed by their Catholic and/or Lutheran clergy).

A grand total of 7 Catholics are known to have refused service in Hitler's armies, and some of these were refused the sacraments for doing so.

Before exhonorating "Hitler's Pope" and "Hitler's Bishops", don't people owe it to Hitler's 10 million victims to READ the case against them? http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal is a good place to start, until you can get some of these:

"German Catholics and Hitler's Wars", by Gordon C. Zahn (a Catholic)
{ U. of Notre Dame Press, 1989 L.O.C. 62-9102 }
"Hitler's Pope, The Secret History of Pius XII", by John Cornwell (a Catholic)
(See what a great many noteworthy critics say about "Hitler's Pope".)
"The Catholic Church in Germany", by Guenter Lewy
"The Popes Against the Jews : The Vatican's Role in
the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism", by David I. Kertzer
"Under His Very Windows : The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy"
by Susan Zuccotti
"Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The NAZIs, and The Swiss Banks",
by Mark Aarons, John Loftus &
"The Secret War Against the Jews : How Western Espionage
Betrayed the Jewish People", by John Loftus, Mark Aarons
"The NAZI Holocaust", by Ronnie S. Landau
"Vatican Diplomacy and the Jews during the Holocaust : 1939-1943",
by Father John F. Morley
"Hitler's Willing Executioners",1996, by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen,
( particularly, pp. 431-441 ) and a whole new book on the topic
"A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair", 2002, by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
The Abandonment of the Jews", by David Wyman
"Papal Sin : Structures of Deceit", by Garry Wills (a Catholic)
( Doubleday ISBN 0385494106, 2000)
and regarding the record of the Protestant churches,
some of which may have performed even more poorly, read :
"When the Witnesses Were Silent", by Wolgang Gerhach.
"NAZI Terror, The Gestapo, Jews and Ordinary Germans",
by Eric Johnson, a professor of history.
"Blowback : America's Recruitment of NAZIs
and Its Effects on the Cold War", by Christopher Simpson
---------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the favorite books of those who would defend Pius XII is :
"Hitler, the War and the Pope"
by Ronald J. Rychlak (a non-Catholic and associate dean for academic affairs and professor of law at the University of Mississippi School of Law, i.e. not a historian.)

[mmonk]

9. What about the majority Lutherans?

How many Jews did they help get out of Europe? I believe it was Hitler that said Martin Luther was the father of Germany. Why not blame them?

[Liberator_Rev]

17. There's plenty of blame to go around.

What's your point? that you can't blame ANYONE, unless you blame EVERYBODY? I'll answer your question, however?

As a former Catholic priest, and the member of a huge family, most of whom are more or less Catholic, I'm more informed and more interested in the Catholic Church's role than the Lutheran's.

As an American, however, I believe ALL AMERICANS should be far more concerned about the power and influence of the world-wide billion member church than the relatively powerless (and harmless) Lutheran church.

Any more questions?

[mmonk]

18. The conclusions you draw

% of Catholics that voted Democratic in 2002-47%
% of other predominately white Christians that voted Democratic in 2002-22%


Make peace

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Well said! And I'll quote another Catholic DUer here: "I'll be a

Catholic long after I've stopped being a Democrat." Meaning, of course, that religion is even deeper than party for many of us (and party is quite deep.)

[JNelson6563]

3. you're on the wrong board for your one-man

crusade.

You're also about 500 years to late.

Take your I-hate-the-RCC campaign elsewhere. This will likely be locked soon. I alerted.

Julie

[Liberator_Rev]

4. The Catholic Wing of the Religious Right

Why is it so VERBOTTEN to criticize only the Catholic Wing of the Religious Right at DU?

On several important fronts, the Catholic pope and bishops promote EXACTLY THE SAME POLICIES as Protestant Fundamentalists and people like Pat Robertson and Gerry Falwell. While these represent the Protestant wing of the Religious Right, the Vatican Curia, Pope John Paul II and the majority of those with any serious power in the Catholic Church in America represent the Catholic wing of the "Religious Right". For anyone who doubts that, check these facts:

V A T I C A N C I T Y, Feb. 1,2001 " Stressing again the Vatican’s opposition to gay marriage, Pope John Paul II today said there was no possibility the church would redefine its view of matrimony.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/popegaymarriage010201.html
"Marriage is not just any old union between human persons, susceptible to being configured according to a plurality of cultural models," the pope said in a speech to the Roman Rota, the Vatican tribunal that can grant marriage annulments. In November, the Vatican blasted lawmakers for giving legal recognition to so-called de facto unions " including those between homosexuals " and said attempts to allow adoption by gays were “a great danger.” That Vatican document reflected denunciations over the past several years by the pontiff.
U.S. Catholic bishops urge states against recognizing same-sex marriages
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer
WASHINGTON (November 12, 2003) - America's Roman Catholic bishops overwhelmingly approved a statement Wednesday that urges states to withhold recognition for same-sex marriages. The bishops approved the statement by a vote of 234-3, with three abstentions.
The bishops said they did not intend to offend homosexuals, and they called discrimination against gays unjust. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops in September gave its general support to amending the Constitution to define marriage as a union of a man and woman. Pope John Paul II also spoke out last summer against gay marriage. The prelates said they felt a need to make another public statement now - as gay couples gain greater acceptance in society and seek the same benefits as heterosexual couples. The document, called "Between Man and Woman: Questions and Answers About Marriage and Same-Sex Unions," defines marriage as a "lifelong union of a man and a woman." The document says authorizing same-sex marriage "would grant official public approval to homosexual activity and would treat it as if it were morally neutral."
Published in the Boston Globe, November 11, 2003
Bishops may punish politicians
Pro-abortion position of Catholic lawmakers a source of frustration
By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Frustrated that so many Catholic politicians support abortion rights, the bishops of the United States said yesterday that they will begin evaluating whether they can impose sanctions against elected officials who vote contrary to church teachings. In a freewheeling discussion reflecting years of concern, some bishops suggested that the church should consider punishments ranging from denying honorary degrees to elected officials, refusing to allow them to speak at Catholic institutions, or even excommunicating them.
The bishops said they were prompted to act by a document issued in January by Pope John Paul II. That document outlined the responsibilities of Catholics actively involved in politics. Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the archbishop of Washington, suggested that the bishops examine how they should deal with Catholic politicians who do not heed the Vatican's urgings.
Excerpts from : boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2003/11/02/the_crusaders/:
The (U.S. Catholic) Crusaders
"A powerful faction of religious and political conservatives is waging a latter-day counterreformation, battling widespread efforts to liberalize the American Catholic Church. And it has the clout and the connections to succeed.
The conservative opposition is tied in to the elites of Washington, D.C. -- McCloskey's high-profile catechumens are hardly the only example -- and its magazines and think tanks are funded by the same foundations that have been the fountainhead of movement conservatism over the past three decades. And just as the clergy sexual abuse scandal energized the reformers, it energized the traditionalists.
"That's where the leadership and the power of the church are right now, no question," says the Rev. Richard McBrien, a theologian at the University of Notre Dame. "These people have direct access to the papacy."
Also Excerpted from the above: POPE JOHN PAUL II During his 25-year pontificate, the pope has allied himself with the traditionalist side of every ongoing dispute within the Catholic Church. He's done so in his 2,400 public speeches and in his 14 encyclicals and in the fact that he has named 130 of the 135 cardinals who will vote on his eventual successor. He's even done so in the 477 saints he's canonized, more than the combined total of his 17 immediate predecessors. These latter-day saints include Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer, the Spanish founder of the Opus Dei movement. Opus Dei, an influential lay order with an estimated 80,000 members in 80 countries, is both a particular favorite of the pope's and an example of another way in which he has managed to put his personal stamp on every part of the church -- in this case, the laity. The society has been controversial, and its secretive nature and its ability to ally itself with centers of power both inside and outside the church have turned Opus Dei into a potent force. an influential, deeply connected, and well-financed faction -- a counterreformation, to borrow a useful term from Roman Catholic history -- that was determined not only to prevent the scandal from being used as a Trojan horse for all manner of church reform but also to use its efforts within the church to affect the politics and culture outside of it.
All of these Democratic Catholic public servants are now (or have recently been) targetted for excommunication by http://www.cathfam.org/cfexcom/Excom.html Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DE) Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) Sen. Tom Daschle (D-SD) Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-CT) Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) Sen. Barbara Milkulski (D-MD) Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) Sen. Jack Reed (RI) Governors :. James E. McGreevey (D-NJ) Gov. Jennifer Granholm (D-MI) Gov. Gray Davis, (D-CA) Gov. Kathleen Sebelius (D-KS) Gov. Tom Ridge (R-PA) Rep. John Baldacci (D-ME) Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-CA) Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY) Rep. Robert Brady (D-PA) Rep. Michael Capuano (D-MA) Rep. William Clay (D-MO) Rep. William Coyne (D-PA) Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) Rep. William Delahunt (D-MA) Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Rep. Lane Evans (D-IL) Rep. Charles Gonzalez (D-TX) Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY) Rep. John Larson (D-CT) Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-RI) Rep. Bill Luther (D-MN) Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA) Rep. Karen McCarthy (D-MO) Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) Rep. James McGovern (D-MA) Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-GA) Rep. Marty Meehan (D-MA) Rep. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) Rep. George Miller (D-CA) Rep. Connie Morella (R-MD) Rep. Grace Napolitano (D-CA) Rep. Frank Pallone (D-NJ) Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-NJ) Rep. Ed Pastor (D-AZ) Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY) Rep. Ciro Rodriguez (D-Texas) Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA) Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-CA) Rep. Jose Serrano (D-NY) Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA) Rep. Nydia M. Velazquez (D-NY)

[Liberator_Rev]

5. Let the COVER-UP continue !

For decades (if not MORE) the sexual molestation of innocent young Catholics had to be hidden from view in order to preserve the reputation of Catholic priests as "men of God".

What, pray tell, is the difference between what all of the perpetrators of that COVER UP did and what people like YOU, JulieNelson, are doing here at DU, trying to censor MY REPORTING OF VERY IMPORTANT FACTS about the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and to put an end to their immoral behavior, including the support of the administration of people like George W. Bush?

Censorship is supposed to be ANATHEMA in Liberal circles. What ever happened to the Liberal answer to what is perceived as "unorthodoxy": "The answer to offensive speech should not be CENSORSHIP (less speech), but MORE (better) speech."

If defenders of the R.C. hierarchy think they have something better to say, when are they going to SAY it, instead or constantly resorting to the centuries old tactic of INQUISITION, TERRORISM, TORTURE, KILLING and CENSORSHIP????

[JNelson6563]

8. All of Christianity is a racket, do you see me

on my personal Crusades? I could sure post some incredibly ugly stuff about what you hold dear and bring out all kinds of folks from both sides and the flame would burn until it was locked.

What purpose would it serve? Well I'd have gotten my say about your religion and upset a bunch of folks but aside from that.....nothing productive.

Folks who are not Catholic, for the most part, do not need lessons on why they should hate the RCC. Catholics who post here will not leave their curch because of the postings of a self-centered, disruptive former priest with an ax to grind against the RCC.

I find your using DU as a pulpit for your anti-Catholic agenda most distasteful and quite revealing. What it reveals about you is not very positive.

Shame on DU for letting this stand--if they do. It would be counter-intuitive to declarations that religious flame wars are not allowed.

Julie

[ant]

10. not too late at all

Whatever may have happened in the past, the fact remains that the Vatican continues to do harm around the world. From the molestation cover up to the rapes of nuns and forced abortions to their systematic opposition to all policies that might help women, this is a dangerous institution with too much power.

I was raised Catholic, but my parents are very liberal, believe in birth control, gay rights, etc., so it's important to remember that what people are criticizing in this situation is NOT "catholics" but the institution, which is very real and carries a lot of power. I think there's often a disconnect on this issue precisely because so many catholics disagree with official teaching - it's kind of like being a republican/democrat in name only. The problem, though, is that people don't realize that while the Vatican may not have much of a direct effect on their lives here in the U.S. (not always, anyway), those official teachings DO affect millions (mostly women) around the globe.

http://www.seechange.org/media/The%20Independent%20September%2099.htm
http://waf.gn.apc.org/fact3.htm

All issues are connected. Family planning is crucial to helping women work their way out of poverty, and poverty is an element that contributes to societies that breed terrorism. No one cared about the Taliban when they were oppressing women. In fact, they seemed to elicit more outrage when they bombed those statues than when they were robbing women of their basic rights. And then came 9/11, and all of a sudden everyone cared.

Let's not wait for the effects of these policies to land on our doorstep again. Let's start taking a more active approach. Even if that means simply being aware, that's better than trying to pretend there's nothing wrong at all.

[Jester_11218]

6. The Christian Right are the Americasn Taliban

Extreemeism is dangerous regarless of the the subject. Religion has been as destructive as it has been positive on this planet. We have to start keeping religion out of politics. Keep it in the home where it does good.

Scary.

[Kimble]

7. He has a great point!

The Roman Catholic Church in the ‘30s and ‘40s was no better than the southern democrats here in the ’50s and ’60s, the acts of our military in regards to the Indians, or most all of the middle east today.

Oh wait, I have just insulted democrats, the US military and Arab culture, mentioned none of the good they have produced and convinced no one of anything… OOOPS!

[Liberator_Rev]

14. Love the OOOPS, Kimble !!!

[DemBones DemBones]

11. I'm with Jesus about "the hypocrisy of clerics looking for sins

in others while being unable to see much greater sins IN THEMSELVES."

[mmonk]

12. A little fact you fail to mention

Records show the RCC ferried more Jews out of the Nazi occupied areas than any other religious group or western relief agency. You may as well add balance and tell both facts of history.

[Liberator_Rev]

20. Do a little more reading, Mmonk.

Catholic apologists have been trying to offset the fact that they played a huge role in the mass-murder of 10 millions of Jews and others (and even helped many of the NAZI war criminals escape prosecution AFTER the War), by claiming credit for rescuing a number of Jews (which isn't even that great when compared to 10,000,000).

In his latest book,"A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair", 2002, Daniel Goldhagen (who also authored " deals with the oft repeated claim that Pius XII was personally responsible for saving the lives of 860,000 Jews. He writes about another Holocaust researcher "Susan Zuccotti, for example, has recently exposed a central exculpating myth - in her view consciously fabricated or encouraged byt he Pope and others, and sustained by Jews who themselves were misled or wanted to placate the powerful Church - that the Pope gave orders for Italian Church officials to hide Jews in churches and monasteries. The priests and others who toook initiatives to save the lives of many Jews were certainly heroic, but there is no evidence of the Pope's guiding hand. Based on extensive, painstaking research into one locale after another, she methodically debunks claims that Pius XII was active on behalf of the Jews. These findings have devastated Pius XII's reputation." p. 40

See much more on what Pius XII did to earn the title of "Hitler's Pope", by reading Cornwell's or Goldhagen's books or at least
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal .

[JNelson6563]

13. Christians revere book promoting :

Incest: Genesis 19:30-38
Genocide: Samuel 15:1-9
Slaughter between followers: 2Chronicles 13:16-18
Madman of a God: Isaiah 34:2-8

There is so much more Rev, if you'd like to really go full swing into Crusade-religious war mode. I have a feeling most would prefer not, as I would rather not. So, if the mods don't lock this we'll see how it turns out, no? ;-)

Julie

[mmonk]

15. Also the subject line

doesn't comply with the post. Also, I don't care for hypocrisy. All matters of society in Europe were silent in the beginning concerning the holocaust.

[Malva Zebrina]

16. It was also the Lutherans who, conjoined with the Catholics

supported Hitler's fascism. Fascism is by definition, bound up with a religion--Naturally, Lutherans were admirers of Hitler because it is well documented that Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite. The Catholics have always taught that the Jews were the ones who killed Jesus--for hundreds of years prior to the rise of Hitler. So, it is not surprising that they took to his anti-semitic fascism easily.

It really is somewhat like beating your head against the wall to try to villify the Catholics, or the Lutherans, or the Calvinists or any one of the hundreds of different Christian sects. It is no secret that--religion has alway, historically, been intertwined with politics. Even you are indulging. :-) And I am not sure that Jesus was a Christ, or was a liberal, or even existed. But..

It is as useless exercise to argue "faith" with anyone. People believe incredible things when it comes to a religion, imo.

I like to concentrate my energy on supporting the watchdogs, ACLU, PFAW, AU and others as much as I can in defending the separation clause and fighting those fundamentalist , literalists who would have us believe that this is a "Christian country" I am sure you have heard that many times. It is too bad that atheists get such bad reviews from virtually all religions--we are always painted as the Satan part of the dichotomy of good vs evil, black and white, Christian-pagan etc. Sterotypes without thought to anything but what the religion teaches abound all over the place--even here on DU :-)




The Vatican is very very rich in history, It's contributions to art is magnificient, as they had the money to finance it all, while the poor suffered under them, gladly in order to gain a spot in heaven.--Pity that in all of that richness, they became so rich that they needed to resort to extreme politics in order to keep it all. It is politics as usual going back hundreds of years--I would love to visit it--but must be satisfied to gaze at pictures since it is very expensive to travel there.

You might enjoy reading the new book--The DaVinci Code, speaking of Opus Dei--it is novel by Dan Brown, but contains much fact in the narrative. I listened to it on tape while I exercised

[Skinner]

21. I'm locking this.

It's 60 years old.