Why so many American still support the war, despite no WMDs.

[Silverhair]

This can be modeled in two different ways.

Criminal law approach. This seems to be the one that most DUers take. Saddam needed to be proven quilty of the particular crime,
(9-11) with solid evidence befoe any action can be taken. That he has committed other horrible crimes doesn't matter as this is a case about 9-11.

Clean the town approach. Watch an older John Wayne movie. Standard Plot. The bad element of town has been making trouble for a long time and now the schoolmarm's been raped & the bank robbed. Never mind which outlaws actually did it, clean them all out. John Wayne tries to get a posse formed but no one joins so he & his deputy set out to clean out the other side of the tracks community by themselves.

For many Americans, Saddam is just one of the usual suspects and the town needs cleaning out. They see W as doing that, so they support him and aren't really that worried about specific evidence, or lack thereof, linking Saddam to 9-11.

Understand that, and you understand why support for this mess remains so high.

[IrateCitizen]

1. A four letter word: FEAR

The Bush administration and the media keep cultivating it, and the people who pay attention to them (and believe them) keep buying into it.

People will advocate terrible things out of irrational fear.

[Silverhair]

2. The fear is not irrational. 9-11 did happen, it wasn't a H'wood fake.

As long as we keep acting like it didn't happen, and don't address the problem, then we give W an extremely strong edge. He at least looks like he is trying to do something.

In the 04 election NATIONAL SECURITY, will be the first, second, and third most important issues.

[La_Serpiente]

3. Congrats for reaching 1000 posts

[Silverhair]

6. Hey, I did, didn't I? Let's face it. DU is addictive. I really

enjoy the stimulating discussion. I've had my view changed on a couple of things, become more informed one several things, found some great web sites on topics of interest, and had a lot of fun.

Thank you for noticing. And thank you DU.

[library_max]

5. But 9/11 had exactly zero to do with Iraq.

This has been thoroughly documented. Even Bush admitted it.

[Silverhair]

9. You missed my point completely.

For those Americans that are supporting the war, it doesn't matter if Saddam was directly involved or not. He was one of the gang of outlaws and it is time to clean out the town. That is why they support the Iraq war.

Please try reading what I actually wrote again.

[9215]

25. But over 70% of US public DO falsely believe

Saddam was behind 9/11.

But then again 95% of them think that the earth was created in 7 days by some bearded old fart in the sky. At some point you have to realize that this specie really doesn't have the capacity for understanding the differance between reality and bullshit, even when the BS is so glaring as in creation theory.

This specie is not going to make it.

[library_max]

35. I read your original post, and addressed it in post #4.

Post #5 was in reply to post #2, not the original message.

[Military Brat]

8. The level of fear is irrational

It is all well and good to be aware of danger and be prepared for it, but the bush administration and its supporters have gone to incredible extremes in its willingness to invade countries which have such little connection to this catastrophic attack, to take resources away from operations which may well lead to resolving the issues of 9/11, meaning the Afghanistan operation, and to play a game of bait and switch which boggles the mind. bush refuses to conduct a thorough investigation of 9/11. He is all lip, no service. In the meantime, while the terrorist clock ticks away, while we lose valuable time in seriously addressing the issue, the fear machine keeps pumping and pumping and pumping away.

I am more afraid of the blowback effect of our ineptitude in facing the 9/11 issue head-on, (particularly our remaining vulnerability in establishing genuine security in our "homeland,") than I am of the possibility of another attack. bush goes on and on about the horse that got out of the barn, but then he fastens the barn door with a piece of thread and expects us to believe that's going to keep another horse from getting out of the barn? Ha!

Edit: When I mention willingness to invade countries, I refer to the PNAC agenda of taking the so-called "war on terrorism" (the crusade) into Syria, Iran, Lebanon, et cetera

[Silverhair]

10. True. But remember, I am only explaining how those who

support the war feel.

[Military Brat]

34. I agree with you there. The problem is they feel, they don't think.

A little critical thinking on their part, a little more self-examination, and maybe we could pull ourselves out of this tangled mess we're in. But I'm not hopeful. Can't remember who it was, but someone said, "You can't go wrong underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Or something like that. And that's money in the bank for rove, bush, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseam.

[Q]

12. Whether 9-11 'happened' has never been the issue...

- The issue has always been that Bush* is using 9-11 as an excuse to attack countries his cabal wanted to attack even before they 'took' office.

- "Looking like he's doing something' is no substitute for going after those actually responsible for 9-11. Your 'John Wayne' metaphor doesn't take into account that the Cowboy didn't blow up the whole town in order to get the bad guys.

- You're also discounting the fact that the American people haven't been told the truth about why Bush* attacked Iraq. The support would drop to zero for Bush* and his wars if the media told the other side of the story.

[sangh0]

20. Maybe for you

but for millions of Americans, the issue IS that 9/11 happened. One of the biggest mistakes the left makes is to assume that most Americans agree with them. Their opinions make sense to them, so they assume they make sense to the rest of America.

You're also discounting the fact that the American people haven't been told the truth about why Bush* attacked Iraq. The support would drop to zero for Bush* and his wars if the media told the other side of the story.

No, Silverhair is fully cognizant of that fact, which is why he recognizes that many people still support the invasion of Iraq. The support WOULD drop to 0% *IF* the people were told the truth, but the fact remains that the people have NOT been told the truth.

[Silverhair]

36. Q, Explaining how someone thinks DOES NOT mean I advocate

that same position. You can only talk to a person if you can understand them.

[leesa]

29. Who's pretending it didn't happen?

We have no idea who did 9-11. All evidence thus far says Iraqis weren't involved and Afghans weren't involved. There has been no evidence presented that OBL or ANY Muslims were involved. The preponderance of information collected points to the involvement of the Bush Crime Family, Saudi Arabia and possibly Israel.
So what the heck does 9-11 have to do with what's going on in Iraq, other than to provide the trigger for irrational Americans to want to KILL people they hate (Muslims) and don't understand?

[sangh0]

33. Read post #12

Q doesn't deny it happened, but according to him it's not an issue.

So what the heck does 9-11 have to do with what's going on in Iraq, other than to provide the trigger for irrational Americans to want to KILL people they hate (Muslims) and don't understand?

And there you go! You already know the answer.

[IrateCitizen]

30. Americans are more likely to be struck by lightning...

or devoured by a shark, than they are to be killed in a terrorist attack on US soil. Especially if they live somewhere other than NYC or Washington, DC.

I never said that 9/11 didn't happen. I live in the NYC metro area. I smelled the stench of the WTC site a month after it happened. I know people who were killed, and people that lost relatives. But one guy I worked rather closely with for a couple of years, who lost a brother in the WTC, said something to me that stuck for quite some time. He said, "You know, they can go and bomb the hell out of somebody for this -- but that isn't going to do anything to bring my brother back."

This guy, btw, is not a liberal. He's a typical NE Republican.

The sooner we realize that the Bush administration and the media are pimping FEAR against all of America, we can try to counter it. If we, instead, give into that fear, and go along with it in the hopes of "winning", then we've already lost.

Some things are bigger than just a presidential election.

[el_gato]

37. well silverhair you were making excuses for martial law

so don't expect me to buy into your rants

[library_max]

4. Two big problems, of course

Number one, the United States has no more right than John Wayne had in those movies to just start shooting people on the theory that they are "bad guys."

Number two, this not being a John Wayne movie, the United States doesn't actually have the ability to take on all the "bad guys" and win. We're having trouble chewing what we've bit off right now - the non-nation of Afghanistan and a country we'd been sitting on militarily for more than a decade (Iraq). See us "slapping leather" with China any time soon? I don't. But Hu Jintao's government is at least as much of a "bad guy" as Saddam Hussein's.

[JeebusH]

7. its the "they're guilty of something ...." thinking ....

[Silverhair]

16. Yes. n/t

[KAMouflage]

11. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance...

...shot him in the back from a darkened corner while Jimmy Stewart stood vulnerable. Parrellels?

[Silverhair]

14. In real life, Billy the Kid was shot from a darkened room, by his

friend, Pat Garrett.

[Silverhair]

13. Hey, I'm explaining, not advocating.

I live in deep Rep territory. Both senators, my congressperson, and most local office holders are Rep. So I hear a lot of people talk about it. I thought I would try to explain (Not advocate) the position that they take.

By explaining it I hope to help DUers understand it so that we can better address and communicate to the middle swing voters that may be able to be pried away from W.

In my state the effort won't make a difference in the coming election. My state will go W. But some states will be battlegrounds and hopefully, by understand a view, we can do something.

[Q]

17. The myth of the 'swing voter'...

- The swing voter is a myth made up by both parties to excuse their pandering to corporations and special interest groups.

- You're suggesting there is shades of gray between truth and lies. The Iraq war and occupation is built on a foundation of lies.

[sangh0]

22. "The swing voter is a myth"???

You're not serious, are you?

It's a well-documented fact that there are millions of people who vote for one party one year and the other party the next, depending on who is running.

[DUreader]

15. There is no support without massive media complicity

50% of NPR listeners believe Saddam/911 or WMD found

And the Fox News #s are even worse

You should not gloss over this important aspect

[Silverhair]

19. I am shocked by the NPR figure.

I expected the FOX figure to be real high, but NPR? I will accept what you say, it just shocks me.

About the gloss. Certainly the media has a share of the blame too. However, I was trying to focus on one particular aspect. To give a full treatment would have needed a book.

[goddess40]

21. War support

If those who supported the war change their minds it will be admitting they were WRONG. Hard for some to do this. Also, most of the American people do very little research into anything. They get their information from TV sound bites and media outlets that support their views---Fox, Limbaugh, etc. They are too lazy to think for themselves.

[Silverhair]

24. True, most people seek to have their view reinforced, not challenged. n/t

[LuCifer]

18. one word: S-T-U-P-I-D

Bush could go on TV, on EVERY network, and say "Yup. It was all b.s. y'all. I lied my ass off, so did the rest of us. I am resigning effective noon tomorrow. I have disgraced America, and I hope you find it in your hearts to forgive me." and guess what? Com'on, guess. 66% of Americans would STILL vote for the piece of crap.

Lu Cifer

[Silverhair]

23. Have you ever watched "The Alamo" with John Wayne.

Wayne plays the part of Crockett. He leads a bunch of Tennesseans to Texas, writes a phony letter from Santa Anna to the Tennesseans, gets them all riled up at Santa Anna, then admits the letter was a phony, and they still want to fight Santa Anna.

[TreasonousBastard]

26. It may be even simpler than that.

People like war.

Look how often we are in some kind of conflict or competition. We're always quicker to fight over something than compromise or work together.

How much easier it is to stir shit than make peace.

War is the ultimate conflict, and when it starts everyone rallies 'round the flag. Even combat veterans, who know war best, rarely talk of the horror of war itself. They talk of victories and defeats, but rarely that the war shouldn't have happened at all.

It's really no different than rooting for your team in a football game. Or your favorite political candidate.

It's the same psychological mechanism, just the stakes are higher.

[Silverhair]

31. Yes, there is that too. n/t

[spindoctor]

27. I disagree

I don't know too many people who actually "support" this war, which surprises me considering the poll numbers.

The ones that do, have a 'root for the home team' mentality about it. I am sure you have heard people say how we have to support the war because our troops are out there.

I have heard this statement from people that I actually respect, even though there is no real logic to it. The common apologistic statement these days when asked for justification seems to be the discovery of mass graves with thousands of bodies in them. Never mind that killing thousands of people to stop the killing of thousands of people does not make much sense. Sense does not apply here.

You need to remember that around half of this nation still believes that this President (any President really) is looking after them and their best interest. They simply assume that whatever is done by Washington is done for the best and don't want to be bothered with details.

That is the kind of mentality you are up against. I don't see John Wayne or Robert Mitchum in that picture.

[mrgorth]

28. Thanks for the 411

but I don't fucking care. The war was wrong and I will not run out and support some Gep/Lieberman ticket to cowtow to idiots too dumb to know this. If I have to move to Canada or Ireland as a result so be it.

[truthspeaker]

32. Because they're Arabs

That's it. They have brown skin and they're Muslims; so were the 9/11 hijackers. That's enough for a disturbing number of Americans. I saw a guy on Tech Support Comedy, in a thread dissing Indian tech support, bring up 9/11. People responded with "Dude, totally different culture, language, and religion." He responded that he didn't care, they were all ragheads as far as he was concerened.

Racism is alive and well in America, especially when mixed with xenophobia and wilfull ignorance.

[bpilgrim]

38. the disney world view

is dominate in the lamestream media and very difficult to break through when hardly ever an alternative pov is offered.

thank gore he 'invented' the internet :bounce:

peace