I really do love you guys! I really do...However IF 2004 goes horribly...

[JanMichael]

...awry: What will you do?

Because you know it will be the End of the Great Experiment (regardless of the arguments for or against it WILL be over), Neo-Fuedalism will rule the day, so the ideals that we've been raised to honor (Family, home, Public Schools, MediCare, Social Security, Civil Society...) and the goals we all were fed to aspire to, get tapered down...Will you accept the historical degradation of the People? Will you be a happy register (check out) girl (or boy)? Will you happily accept the Financial/Investment Economy? Will you accept the "natural" decimation of our Society, your family, with a smile and wink?

Will you roll over like a good victim?

Just curious.

[ldf]

1. hell no!

as long as i have a mouth on me i am going to bitch and complain.

[OrdinaryTa]

10. A Dog on a Tether

A dog on a tether can only bark. But if that's all he can do, he'll do it!

[cthrumatrix]

2. I have faith that all this is going on for a reason so that the people

experience so much "pain" from deceipt, fraud, corporatism etc...that the people will revolt and demand "transparency" and fairness more so than ever before.

[Clete]

3. Not roll over, but I probably will try to get out of the way.

Eventually these assholes will lose if history is right. However, I am afraid they will do a lot of damage before that happens.

[JanMichael]

7. With the Media Whores whoring and the questionable Diebold....

...election gadgets...there simply isn't a "Fair" or "level" playing field...

We have to fight NOW!

[izzie]

30. It all goes in waves and it time it came down,

It may have to get worse before people see what is going on or we just learn to live with it. I am sort of watching the women with the Roe thing. I wonder if they will have to refight that and it is starting to look like they will have to.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

5. i'm gonna move home and live with my mom.

:)

[Shakeydave]

42. Your mother and I don't want you here!

Bwahahahahahahahahaha! :evilgrin: How's it going KG?!

[bobd]

6. I'll Finally Work Up the Nerve to Off Myself

I've been toying with it for years. I ALWAYS chicken out though. If Bush wins in 2004 it may finally be enough to go that final step. No more worries. No more work. No more Republicans!

Bring on the big sleep!!!!!

Bob D.

[Cha]

13. your kidding, right?

Not funny! Just move out of the Country. But don't worry bush is gonna lose!

[bobd]

17. No - I'm NOT Kidding

What will be the point of continuing to exist in a openly fascist country? The big sleep has been quite enticing for me over the last 6-7 years or so. I guess I'm just so tired of worrying and arguing with the conservatives. I'm sick of them ALWAYS winning. I just want to check out ....

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DieboldMustDie]

34. Then, as zidzi suggested...

move! Meanwhile look into counseling. Spending several years contemplating suicide is serious.

[w4rma]

59. Ummm, don't do that. I'm serious.

The whole world has been fighting oppression for as long as humans have been on the planet.

[farmbo]

8. Hell, If I could live through the Nixon Administration, I can deal with Bu

...We'll have a grand old time...watching them self-destruct.

[JanMichael]

12. Totally different animals IMHO.

This IS the End Game in the Religious/NeoCon/NeoFascist mind.

Don't, for a minute, think that the "old" rules apply anymore because they don't.

The 2000 sElection proves that.

[mkregel]

9. If 2004 goes horribly awry

There will be ways to revolt - - there always are.

The key is not to make sweeping changes but more to be a fly in the system's ointment. Be the sliver that soon becomes two slivers and then three until soon there will be no option but to deal.

Again - none of these methods are violent, but there are always ways to make those who stole from us pay.

[JanMichael]

14. I hope, more that for anything else, that you are correct.

I kid you not. The alternatives scare the shit out of me.

[DagmarK]

15. McKregel......give me ONE EXAMPLE in history.......

way past history or the last 40 years when ANYONE or group has stolen from us has actually been made to pay?????????

Our leaders and potential leaders have been assasinated right and left.

The corporations have raped us all by greasing the palms of the murderer thugs in official positions.

It has never happened.......NEVER. Why would it start now with these criminals and thugs?

What they get are presidential pardons.....new jobs......reprieves. Their kids are still living the good life......their family trusts are fully funded. Hell, the Nixon conspirators and the iran contra criminals are running our friggin country today!

NEVER has the power elite ever paid for any of their crimes against the people. And me? little taxpayer person...I have been audited by the IRS 3 times in my life.

[JanMichael]

18. You're right...The truly Powerful Left leaning people have been SHOT.

I'm almost at a loss.

What they fuck should we, in the view of History, do?????

[DagmarK]

38. Pray????????

But seriously, the bulk of our society has got to get a clue. "doing the right thing" has got to be turned around from what it has been labeled as "Amoral" to being, simply, the right thing to do. that will take a social revolution of some sort........and it's very possible that the way the bfee/pnac is running this country into the ground that we will undergo a social revolution........under dire circumstances.

For me...I am old........I am moving to Canada. That's just me......

[JanMichael]

43. No my friend, I don't "pray" for anything....

...I'm a Secular Humanist that sees this Life as the only Life and I don't give mercy to the people that degrade it. This is "IT" and I hate those that destroy it for "financial" or "fiduciary" gain.

I accept your decision to leave, I however do not have that choice, my Family is stuck here and they will get my Life in defence.

[DagmarK]

46. I totally understand......

I think I was being more facetious about "praying".......you know...when you're on a plane that's going done, a lot of people convert to something other than secular beliefs.......

[JanMichael]

58. Fear "converts" quite a few non-believers.

It's a fact, people panic.

However I have no desire to make them psychologically/emotionally stronger...<big sigh...no shit, I was truly in a state of contemplation>

On an practical plane we have to appeal to the cultural mores if we intend to win.

That said I hope our battles are fought by those in the "now" because they are the most ferocious bastards on the face of the planet. It's truly DO or DIE.

When is the "game' "over"? I don't know for a fact but I think it's "OVER"!

That's why I'm so insane over this shit, I can't help myself...

[MUAD_DIB]

53. Well, if that is true then we need to find new leaders,

and attack them at the ballot box.

...or we will need lots of firearms.

No Joke.

What do you think Washington, Jefferson or Lincoln did to change the course of evil? Do you think that they said please be nice? No. They did what they felt they had to do.

[JanMichael]

57. .

.

I know.

[mkregel]

20. No...I'll agree with you

They never pay enough. But things come back to bite them. Nixon paid. Spiro Agnew paid. In recent times William Bennett paid.

But what I'm arguing about here is a little different. Make them pay. Take their wealth - not on the point of a gun but take it. It belongs to you - so take it.

On Edit - PM me if you want more concrete examples.

[DagmarK]

49. so a few people fell on some swords......

Very minor when you can imagine the multitude of guilty parties who got off scott free.

When I think about "justice" for the bad guys in this country, I always think back to having breakfast with my mother in a little place in Santa Fe in the late 1970s (we worked together and had a VERY early start time).

Guess who was always having breakfast at The Swiss Pastry Shop on Guadalupe in Santa Fe, always reading a paper, enjoying his croissant and cafe and pastries? John Erlichman.

He looked like a dour person to me......but somehow the price he paid for his involvement with Nixon didn't quite cut it for me.......

[proud patriot]

16. Not rolling over . Not leaving either

Will work to make it right "til the flesh is ripped from my bones"

[JanMichael]

36. What infuriates me is that THAT has become an option!

Neither you, nor I, was raised to "raise hell"!

However those sniveling fuckwits have forced that upon us and that makes me...

You know, not "happy".

[TheBigGuy]

19. frankly I would probably give up following politics

....probably will be spending too much time trying to survive.

[DagmarK]

39. I am sure you will survive just fine, bigguy........

in your defense contractor job.........

**rolling my eyes**

[Terwilliger]

21. only certain people responding here

quite curious

[JanMichael]

24. Please elaborate.

I will excuse myself though for rational conversation due to extreme inebriation:-)

[Terwilliger]

26. I think some people should answer your question

I dont know...I dont think I could allow myself to continue in this society knowing that it can be so much more than it is, but especially if Republicans retain control in 04

[JanMichael]

28. You know why I'm considered an asshole?

Well, um, the attitude may be a part of it, but I'm also a Literalist.

I don't play.

Your right of course and perhaps I should have never asked this question...Nah.

[Terwilliger]

51. I was hoping

that certain more right-leaning DUers would care to comment on your post

[JanMichael]

60. Sorry!

I'm a tad...um..."one toke over the line"

Anyway I've noticed a huge CONservative void myself:evilgrin:

[Terwilliger]

63. not at all

one toke over the line? nahhhh

too few tokes, too much war and death

[BeachBuckeye]

48. I was just going to ask how many beers were left in the case?

Glad you are feeling so "upbeat" tonight! Don't worry, we have microphones my friend! That is we have them till they come haul our asses out of the studio. Wait till you see the hate mail this week. Jesus, some of those people are really on the edge!

[JanMichael]

61. Bring um on!

hic!

Silly fuckers don't know their ass from a hole in their...Don't look...MOTHER!

[TheBigGuy]

22. with electronic voting this is a pointless exercise.

if whats being said here about electronic voting is true politics will become a pointless exercise...a big kabuki mime thing....

It probably wouldnt even be worth it to go to the polls if we start seeing evidence of fraud and rigging....and the media covering it up.

So why bother, really.

Better things to do with ones time than to stand in line to go through the motions of "voting".

[JanMichael]

25. I'll vote regardless of misgivings.

Of course I'l also badger the poll workers to drink:evilgrin:

[TheBigGuy]

29. I honestly dont think I could vote ....

...I couldnt stand knowing, or not knowing, if my vote counted or not.

I have sort of faith in the system now. But if this electronic voting takes off, and we starte seeing fishy things happen, my confidence would be destroyed enough to just not bother anymoer.

[MUAD_DIB]

54. That's the spirit.

Give up.

That's what they want of you.

[LiberalTexan]

23. It's not going to go wrong

I'm out in the 100º Texas heat knocking on my neighbor's doors and talking the issues. If EVERYONE here does that in our own neighborhoods, then we can win this. We have strength in numbers.

Contact your precinct chair or local Dem party or campaign and volunteer to help. If you don't have a precinct chair, BECOME ONE! I did! Make up the rules as you go along! I do! There is no cookie cutter way of being a good precinct chair. Do what feels right.

I am convinced we can do this. When I start to think of election night and where I will be and the balloons falling and the music playing and our democratic candidate we worked so hard for ACTUALLY WINNING, I start to tear up. I just can't wait till that day.

WE HAVE TO EARN THAT DAY. Every one of us.

[stevedeshazer]

27. Post of the week

You are absolutely right.

Thanks for saying it.

[TheBigGuy]

31. It doesnt really matter if the votes are rigged.

With this electronic voting thing they can hack the machines and switch the vbotes...all the knocking on doors in 100 degree heat getting people to vote wont mean a damn thing if some GOP hacker steals the election....

[JanMichael]

33. You ROCK!

Seriously. You put your money where your mouth is.

While I've been playing tootsy toes with the limosene libbies you're out getting VOTES!

I'm about sick of their shit so in the very near future I'll be pm'ing you for tips:-)

[Imajika]

35. If it does go bad in 04'

...then I will gear up for 06'....and if that doesn't go well I will be preparing for 08'.

All this talk of this being the "end" of Democracy and the finale of the Great Experiment is nonsense in my book. Really, to me it sounds like religious fanatics waiting on the return of Jesus or some cult planning for the end of life on earth (and then shocked and somewhat disappointed that it never happens).

Bush is just a bad Republican President. Reagan was another one and we managed to deal with him and his political spawn for 12 years. We then reclaimed the country with Clinton's election and had 8 glorious years of relative peace and prosperity.

The cycle goes on. I really hope you don't think Bush is the worst we will ever get. There will be worse. Do you think that Europe will always elect left of center candidates? Look at Italy right now. Do you believe that Germany will never elect another CDU right wing Chancellor?

We are not going to win em' all. We are all progressives in one way or another. That means we are pushing for change. Change occurs slowly. Sometimes we will have the momentum, other times we won't.

People get entirely too hung up on every single news event here. I mean, don't get me wrong, it is all very interesting to follow - but I think it is far better to look at the big picture and stop obsessing over every nuance of each and every news story.

Chris Matthews knocks on Bush for a few days and everyone thinks "Bush is going down" and that suddenly Chris Matthews is one of the good guys. Nonsense. Bush is very likely not going down, almost anyone who seriously follows politics knows that. He is tarnished, but he will most certainly live to fight another day. Chris Matthews is not our friend. He is not an enemy either, he is what he is - a onetime Democrat who has gotten more conservative with age and the quest for ratings.

Bush may or may not win in 04'. If we nominate a strong candidate, run a good campaign and keep our wits about us we can beat him. It won't be easy, but then accomplishing the important things in life rarely is.

Big picture folks. Big picture.

Imajika

[JanMichael]

37. I have to be honest with you: Under ordinary circumstances everything...

...would be OK. I would normally agree with you. That's MY reality for godness sakes.

However your post would suggest that you haven't been noticing the "Brave New World" ticket that 9-11 gave our idiot son pResident.

The rules ARE different now.

[Imajika]

47. JanMichael

"However your post would suggest that you haven't been noticing the 'Brave New World' ticket that 9-11 gave our idiot son pResident."

Come one, seriously, what'd ya think would happen after something like 9-11? Ofcourse the American public is pissed and they want vengeance and to feel like it can't happen again.

Bush pushed his war on Iraq and the American public went along. They didn't buy into attacking Iraq because of a Uranium-Niger connection - they supported it because they have been told since 91' that Saddam is a "bad" Arab and are perfectly happy to go right on attacking and overthrowing any "bad" Arabs till they feel safe again.

Don't be at all surprised if Bush doesn't attack somewhere else. He very well might, and the polls may well show that he has the public support to do it.

Who knows how long Americans will feel this vulnerable and angry over 9-11.

But, and this is a big but, the pendulum will swing the other way. At some point, it always does. Americans will get sick of Bush's post 9-11 policies. Eventually, the public will just get tired of his antics. And when they do the American people will be ready for a change and a different course for both Domestic and Foreign policy. And as that time approaches we need to be ready with real alternatives, not just criticisms of Bush. Democrats need to have a real strategy to deal with terrorism, not just slogans.

Again, it will be hard to beat Bush, but we can and I suspect we very well may - if we nominate a good candidate and run an effective campaign.

It just ain't the end of the world. Bush has come and he will go. Worse will come at some point. Great Presidents will also be elected and the next one may be one of the current Democratic candidates running right now.

Imajika

[JanMichael]

50. I appreciate your well though out reply.

I really do. But through it all I saw a "Everything is usual" opinion.

I wish I could share that "The pendulum will rock back" attitude but I swear to you that I don't believe that this particular breed of CONservatives is "normal". Seriously.

I HOPE that you're right and I'm just a hysteric city planner:-)


PS~ I am BLOCKED (Drunk, Inebriated, Plastered...) right now so forgive me if I was rude!

[Imajika]

52. Your weren't rude

"But through it all I saw a 'Everything is usual' opinion."

Well, there is some truth to that.

"but I swear to you that I don't believe that this particular breed of CONservatives is 'normal'. Seriously."

Sorry to say, but I think it is. Infact, I think much of the Republican Party is even more radical then Bush. The base of the GOP detests Bush's education, medicare, AIDS, etc, etc policies. Many, many Republicans don't wanna spend a nickel on those things. Remember Gingrich? He is a GOP favorite. Newt literally has negative charisma, but there are lots and lots like him residing in the elephant party. Bush is a rightwinger for sure, but there are plenty of Republicans crawling about that are worse.

And one day, one of those radicals that makes Bush look like a pussycat will probably weasel his/her way into office.

I just think think we need perspective. I don't think Bush worming his way into the White House means the end of Democracy. And if he wins in 04' I don't believe that somehow ends the American experiment.

Cheer up. The pendulum really does swing back. Politics is cyclic. Bush pushes too far to the right, the reaction will be an inevitable swing to the left. The key is to keep ever so slowly moving things in a progressive direction. There will be setbacks, sometimes even monumental setbacks. But the other side suffers those too.

I just think it is a good idea to see the big picture. We have every chance of tossing Bush out of the White House in 04'. We pick a good candidate, run a good campaign and the executive branch (and perhaps even part or all of the legislative) will be back in the hands of Democrats. If we come up short, we gear up and go for 06'. Never quit, never surrender. Keep up the good fight.

Now come on, cheer up, look on the bright side of things. The glass is not always half empty.

Imajika

[JanMichael]

56. Damn! Another nice response.

Want to know a really CRAZY fact? I'm actually a full fledged Optomist! I even started local in Krakow a few years back:evilgrin:

You're very much like my favorite person in the world, my step-dad, and I sincerely (Even with my FAR LEFT views I despise the hurt that a meltdown would cause) think that you may, may, be right.

My main point though is that I don't trust them to play by the old rules.

I don't, I won't. And history re-enforces my belief.

I'm guessin however, that the old system works, that you don't either and are hoping for the best...

So am I:-)

[DagmarK]

44. IMA.....have you noticed the HUGE transfer of wealth .......

from the public sector to the private sector?

What we will have in very short order is a bona fide oligarchy. This is not politics as usual......"just a bad president", this is something so insidieously entrenched in evil and greed that the likes of us can't even imagine it. And it will take ......god I don't know what it will take to turn it around...............

Have you ever heard of a historical account of taking out an oligarchy that wasn't bloody and long as hell?

To top it.....our military (via the Pentagon) is fully supporting it. (the most telling thing that this is how its shaping up is when Turkey's parliament voted to NOT be in the coaliton; and rummy and wolfowitz got on their their military leaders' butts about not doing more to "make" or "convince" the elected officials to "do the right thing." That was the SCARIEST example of what these thugs are up to. Just a little glimpse into their sick plans for US!

So.....they have the money and the guns. Great, just great.

This has NEVER happened in this country.......I can't write it off.

What distinguishes our up and coming oligarchy is that that it's global......... not just entrenched here in our one country. That's unprecedented.

[Shakeydave]

40. Ahem! Emmm! In the immortal words of Steven Tyler................

Jamie's got a gun!

[JanMichael]

45. Or perhap: "Love in an elevator"?

Livin' it up as you're goin' doooown.....

And yes, the "victim" is not without recourse:evilgrin:

[LiberalLibra]

41. I think if the USSC gets involved or the repubs pull something else.....

...to twart another election that we are looking at civil war in this country. I truly do believe that and I will be right out there on the front lines too.

[MUAD_DIB]

55. Keep your head low

and your powder dry.

[Ein]

62. I want bush to get shot down. but...

I think your assessment is pessimistic. I think another term would further galvanize us. Kinda like a little bush equals a little reaction (which was big), and a lot of bush equals alot of reaction.

The junta that has been corrupting politics since basically Nixon is going to get what they deserve (well, maybe short of it, b/c if i said what I think they deserve... Hello Mr. FBI)

[JanMichael]

64. Oh of course it would galvanize the Left!

However reconstituting the New Deal bothers me.

I don't know why either.

[Skittles]

65. F*** NO I WON'T ROLL OVER

I'LL FIGHT THESE FASCISTS UNTIL THEY ARE RUN OUT OF MY COUNTRY.

[Octafish]

66. What Skittles said.

To which I add: FUCK YOU, BUSH!

The Reich wing always uses "If you don't love America, leave."

No way I'm leaving. First that would give them what they've tried to steal in the courts, loot from the Treasury, and plunder by force.

Second, and most important, this is OUR country. Not the GOP's. Not George W Moron. And certainly not the Reich's.

[knight_of_the_star]

68. If I leave

It will be to get outside help. If I leave, I will return with an army. Until things get so bad that we need that though, I'm staying put, and no matter what, THEY CAN PRY MY CIVIL RIGHTS FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!

[Forkboy]

67. I'll keep scratching and clawing

I don't have anything better to do :)

[joanski01]

69. I won't roll over.

I'm Polish. I'm loyal. I'm proud. I'll fight to the end.

I think the big picture is the takeover of the world's resources. They've gone farther than they ever have before. Think where they will be in five more years. The fight just got harder with the DLC and Clinton being soft on bush*. They want the corporate money, and to hell with us. The reason Gore got pushed out becomes clearer and clearer. -- Guess I'd better have another cup of coffee.