To the Greens:

[Caution]

I would like to quote the Rules of the DU for a moment:

==Begin Quote==
We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.
==End Quote==

As this board is a gathering place for Democrats, the rules clearly also invite Greens who are a progressive group, however the caveat is working with us. While I have no problem with discussion of Green Party goals, I do have a problem with the constant (at least lately) attempt to undermine Democratic candidates with "If the Democratic candidate sucks will you vote Green?" and threads of their ilk. I would suggest that if you are a green party advocate that you advocate the Green Party and it's values while here as a guest rather than attempt to undermine the Democratic Party and it's members. While you are welcome here I do not believe this is an invitation to attempt to split the democratic party.

This is my interpretation of these threads only and i am not a moderator, so what I have to say doesn't count for much in the vast scheme of things, but I'd be surprised if there is no one else who frequents these forums who doesn't feel the same way. I have posted some of my feelings about the Green Party in general and about specific parts of the Green Party platform specifically. While I often disagree with the Green Party platform and some of the Green Party goals, I try to show respect I feel Greens as a group deserve (if I have shown disrespect, that was not my intention and I apologize), lately that respect has not been returned in my opinion.

[DEMActivist]

1. So what about the Greens who are supporting Dean?

Like myself.

You don't call that working WITH Democrats? Please, let those of us know so we can stop supporting Dean and go back to our party.

[Caution]

2. How about actually reading my message...

Did I attack Greens? Did I say anything about Greens supporting Dems? No, all I did was ask that Greens stick to supporting the goals of DU if they are planning on being guests at a Democratic forum. Just because I criticize the way certain Greens have been acting here does not make it a personal attack on all Greens or on the Green party in general. Think before you react.

[DEMActivist]

7. I DID read your message, now answer my question

Is supporting Howard Dean NOT in accordance with the rules?

[Caution]

11. Supporting a candidate isn't the issue...

the contention was that some Greens are actively working to undermine Democratic candidates and I personally feel that this is contrary to the spirit of the invitation to progressives outside the Democratic party extended in the forum rules. I'm happy that you support a Democratic candidate and certainly that is an indication of working towards a common goal (pushing conservatives out of positions of power). And I thank you for your support of a Dem candidate.

[DEMActivist]

28. I really hope...

that you can see the hypocrisy of your title in this reply:

"Supporting a candidate isn't the issue"

So, you're saying supporting a DEMOCRATIC candidate isn't what we're here for? That pushing the DEMOCRATIC agenda and fighting for democracy isn't a shared objective of the people on this forum?

Supporting a DEMOCRATIC candidate is the ENTIRE issue. Putting a DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY in control is the ENTIRE issue.

I just wanted to make that clear in case you forgot where you were at the moment.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Supporting the war is the ISSUE!

The war and colonial occupation of Iraq is the lithmus test, just as abortion rights (pro and con) has been since the Roe decision.

People that voted for the war are accomplices to war crimes.

You wouldn't vote for a murderer for President, and neither should you vote for a candidate that voted for the war and remains unrepentant by his continued support for the occupation of Iraq.

[mantis]

4. Hey Dem

IF....IF...Dean loses do you plan on going back
to the Green Party?

Just wondering. Sorry if you answered this already
also.

[DEMActivist]

6. Unless the candidate at the TOP of the ticket is

Dean, Kucinich or Sharpton the answer is a resounding YES.

And, yes, I have answered it before.

[mantis]

10. Well that is too bad

And since I'm not a Dean supporter(but will work my ass
off to get him elected if he is the nominee) my answer would
be...who cares if you go back to the green party now or later?

[DEMActivist]

12. I suspect Howard Dean would disagree with you.

How absolutely progressive of you....we don't WANT your vote, you're a friggin' GREEN!!!!

Shall we ask Howard Dean what he thinks of this approach?

[LiberalLibra]

13. DEMActivist: The chances of those 3 winning the nomination is.....

.....slim to none so why the wait????

[DEMActivist]

15. Let's see what the candidate thinks of this, shall we?

My email to the Dean campign just now:

As a supporter of Howard Dean, a dollar contributor to his campaign, AND a Green Party Member, I'd like to hear the official Dean position on this exchange which occurred on the Democratic Underground forums today:

Poster #1: IF....IF...Dean loses do you plan on going back to the Green Party?

Just wondering. Sorry if you answered this already also.
---------
My Response: Unless the candidate at the TOP of the ticket is Dean, Kucinich or Sharpton the answer is a resounding YES.

And, yes, I have answered it before.
--------
Original poster's reply: Well that is too bad
And since I'm not a Dean supporter(but will work my ass off to get him elected if he is the nominee) my answer would be...who cares if you go back to the green party now or later?
-------------------
You can find the original thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=69164&mesg_id=69164&page=#69221

Your response to this exchange would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[charlie]

16. Jiminy farkin' Christmas

She's a Green who is solidly lined up behind a Democrat and you're trying to torment her into bailing. After all your endless "flame me if you dare" wailings about how EVERYONE must vote Dem or the earth will implode. What a fraud...

[buddhamama]

19. yes ! right on,charlie

i,myself, am a little tired of the wailing.
thank you for saying it.

[Brian Sweat]

24. Absolutely!

The Greens have every right to run their own candidate, but they have no right to tell us who our candidate should be.

[Brian Sweat]

22. See ya

Wouldn't want to be ya.

[BeachBuckeye]

31. Do I understand that if your candidate

doesn't get the nomination you will be working against the nominated candidate? If so, wouldn't that be against the stated mission of this board?

[DEMActivist]

33. Not to worry....

If that happens, I won't be around.

But the bottom line is simple - I won't work to elect a war mongering, corporatist Democrat. And if that's who they put on the ballot, I'll have no part of it.

on edit:
But you should keep in mind that this attitude is exactly why you don't get monetary donations from people who might otherwise support you.

[el_gato]

3. green bashing

As much green bashing as i see around here i can only interpret your remarks with :nopity:

[chiburb]

5. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=69190&mesg_id=69190&page=

[DUreader]

8. So hit the damn 'alert' link and let the mods decide

[leftyandproud]

9. I admire greens..

the same way I admire libertarians...I made a post about a month ago speculating on what the goals of the greens should be--namely to push the democrats back TO THE LEFT...the same way the libertarians are trying to push the GOP further TO THE RIGHT. I admire hardcore partisans on both sides for standing on principle...even though I may not personally agree with them. It's refreshing to look at the 3rd parties and see how clear and uncompromising their visions are--really a stark difference between some of the wishy washy members in congress on both sides of the aisle. I like a stark contrast, and give props to the greens for having the courage to do what is right regardless of what the country thinks.

[Mairead]

14. I think you misread the part you quoted

It talks about shared goals, not Democratic goals. There's a difference.

I'm a Greenie and a socialist. I share goals with the co-chair of the Democratic Progressive Caucus, Dennis Kucinich, and with all those who support his candidacy, but I share few or none with the right-wing Dems here who are, in so many ugly ways, indistinguishable from the Republicans.

I'm unalterably opposed to the idea of shifting wealth from working people and the poor in order to give it to the leisure class. I'm equally opposed to limitations on our Constitutional rights, to adventurism that murders thousands for the sake of private profit, to the loss of our right to life and liberty, and to the kind of shallow thinking that accepts slogans and a big front in place of real substance.

And I really don't give a big hairy rat's backside what rubrics are used to justify those assaults on democracy.

I hope you're opposed to those things too.

[Caution]

17. Nope I did not misread this at all.

I typically agree with much of what Greens stand for (though I think the written platform leaves a LOT to be desired and contains a lot that I absolutely disagree with). I do understand the difference between shared and Democratic goals. I feel that attempts to undermine the Democratic party and drain votes to the Green Party do not constitute a shared goal, it may be a Green goal (though i would hope not, as a minority party one of the stated goals of the Greens is to expand into a more multi-party system, not simply replace one of the current members of the two-party system), but it certainly is not a Democratic goal.

[Rainbowreflect]

18. Amen,! I am a dem, but I am getting really tired of the green

bashing that has been going on lately. I seem to have more beliefs in common with many greens than the repub lites that many dems have become. I will work hard for anyone and everyone that can get bush out of the WH, but I think attacking the greens only pushes them further away.

[blondeatlast]

20. Took the words right outta my

keyboard. Let's quit with the bashing. If there is one issue we can agree on, one shared goal, it is this: ABB.

Find a flaw in Green policy--go ahead and discuss it. If the Greens find a flaw in ours, same thing.

I was registered Green for a short while, then switched back to Democrat because the Dems represent my ideals a bit better (not, mind you, the DLC!). The Dems need to strengthen their appeal to the grass roots and I think the Greens have a lot of wisdom to offer in that regard.

[blondeatlast]

21. There's enough a**holes on both sides--I ingnore them. Period.

Though I have not felt the need to put anyone on ignore.

[jonnyblitz]

23. LMFAO!!

whatever dude/dude-ess !!!!! You assume that it is Greens who are picking up for Greens and Greens who are bashing DEMS...METHINKS you assume more than actually know... welcome to DU anyways .....

[Iverson]

25. to Caution:

We look at the same object and see different things. I see a broad sentiment for the outright exclusion of Greens based on party identification alone. I see a coalescing of the random vilification into something better organized lately.

I would agree that speculation about whether the Democratic nominee might "suck" is lowbrow discourse, but I do not agree that it undermines anyone except possibly the writer.

The last thing we need around here is one more reminder - even if politely phrased - that Greens are second class citizens around here whose contribution is only suffered if it doesn't include any progressive critique of Dems. That, like it or not, is the effect of your interpretation. When a Green questions YOUR right to be here based on party affiliation alone, then you will see what I mean.

[ulysses]

26. To Caution:

Welcome to DU, and to a very long-running issue here. You should know that "our shared goals" is not a phrase the definition of which everyone here agrees upon.

In the absence of evidence otherwise, many of us have always taken the name of the site to welcome both Democrats and democrats. The site administrators, having had plenty of chances to disabuse us of that notion, have not done so. Quite. Many of us - I suspect including some of those who would *never* vote third party - appreciate being able to air out genuine issues on the left here.

So, again, welcome. I look forward to seeing more of you on the boards.

[JVS]

27. I'm the one who started the thread you mention

I am not a Green and have never voted for a Green, I've voted for a couple 3rd part candidates in local elections, but by and large I walk in and pull the Democratic lever. I also attend politcal meetings of the Democratic party.

My thread is a response to numerous ABB threads. I consider ABB to be an extremely dangerous position to espouse before the primaries. ABB lets those wielding large amounts of influence within the party know that there will be few consequences involved with persuing policy almost identicle to the Republicans' policy. I don't want to see this happen. This is why I raise the point that if the candidate "sucks" I will be tempted to bail. It might not be pleasant, but its true, so deal with it. Additionally, I think that an extremely right-wing Democratic candidate has very low chances of winning anyway. ABB might get a few party diehards out, but it will never get the relatively apolitical out, and they determine elections. We need Ideas, not merely the absence of Bush. ABB serves as a crutch in lieu of these ideas and ultimately weakens the party.

[OrdinaryTa]

32. But I'm a Democrat, Not a Green

I'm not a Green, I'm a Democrat. But not a Democrat at any price. If the Democrats nominate somebody who voted for the war, that person is not eligible for my vote. And I hate being put me in such a situation.

I did a stupid thing in 1968 when both major parties supported the Vietnam war. I didn't vote at all. This time, confronted with the same non-choice, I'll vote for somebody. The war is a vitally important issue. Get it wrong, and I don't care where you stand on anything else.

[fishnfla]

34. the Greens are a 3rd party no?

Not my party. Not invited.
Get yer own damn forum
Dont see ya' coattailing anywhere else do we?

After 2000, I have hard feelings. Sorry. Tell your friends I hate them too.

[blondeatlast]

36. Not specifically invited, but, yes, they are invited.

"Progressives who share our goals." There are a few Libertarians on the board as well. I'm not a Green by any definition, but I welcome them--at least until the Democratic nominee is named.

Getting Bush out of office is pretty much a standard goal, I would say.

[noiretextatique]

35. i think you need to re-read that quote

your interpretation is faulty. "our goals" refers to the goals of DU, not to Democrats, per se.

[jiacinto]

37. I feel the same way

Sometimes I feel like this is really GreenUnderground.com or SocialistUnderground.com

[newyawker99]

38. From the rules.

WHO IS WELCOME ON DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, AND WHO IS NOT

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

If you have been banned from Democratic Underground, you are not permitted to log on again using a different username. Previously banned members will be immediately banned, regardless of behavior.

People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, antisocial behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html