Why IT Jobs Are Indeed OUR Jobs

[Yavin4]

Simple answer: The Internet, which is THE biggest reason why outsourcing is even feasible because the internet makes data transferring almost instantaneous.

Now, who was responsible for the creation of the internet itself. THE U.S. TAXPAYERS that's who. The internet started as a Dept. of Defense government project. It wasn't Oracle, IBM, M$, or HP-Compaq that invented and developed the internet. It was American taxpayers that did it.

Additionally, there are thousands upon thousands of IT innovations that you and I paid for from our tax dollars that these high-tech companies use to make billions in profits.

Moreover, the American taxpayer has paid billions of dollars in educational subsidies to people learning IT skills in either tech schools or universities. We did so with the knowledge that these people would become self-sufficient, tax-payers.

Finally, these high-tech companies have gotten billions and billions of dollars of tax subsidies at the state and national level. They also enjoy patent protection, currency protections, and a host of other protections from the federal and state governments. Go out and try to market your own version of Windows and just see what happens to you.

[zoidberg]

1. Please try again

Whatever subsidy that government provides to corporations through research funding has been more than made up by profits paid by the corporations. Remember, just because there are a handful of companies that broke tax law doesn't mean that most of them don't pay a significant chunk of their profits back to the government.

[wuushew]

2. Corporations are evil

Testimony
of
Robert M. Morgenthau
before the
United States Senate
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
July 18, 2001



Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, I am grateful for the opportunity to testify on a subject that has long been of interest to me and is becoming more important every day.



Increasingly, off-shore tax havens are serving as powerful magnets for U.S.dollars. Deposits of U.S. dollars in the Cayman Islands have been increasing by about $120 billion a year; according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, there are now more than $800 billion U.S. dollars on deposit in Grand Cayman. That is more than twice the amount on deposit in all the banks in New York City and the equivalent of nearly 20% of all the dollar deposits in the United States. It amounts to almost $3000 for every man, woman and child counted in the last U.S. census. It is about what the federal government now spends on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid combined in a year.

http://govt-aff.senate.gov/071801_psimorgenthau.htm

[bpilgrim]

3. yeah... they are all paid up and don't owe anybody NOTHING

they have made all the sacrifices they are willing to make and they can take it from here.

gotcha ;-)

peace

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. no, you are wrong

"Whatever subsidy that government provides to corporations through research funding has been more than made up by profits paid by the corporations."

If a corporation profits from subsidies from our government, how does the fact that they have profited make up for the subsidies? We subsidize, they profit?

Corporations are chartered by the government, they are not human beings. They are subsidiaries of the state government that charters them. They don't have any rights.

[zoidberg]

9. So why let corporations form at all?

If they are just subsidiaries of state government, why not have the government take the place of corporations? Instead of GM making cars, the State of Michigan could make cars. Instead of Texaco refining oil, the state of Texas could. Instead of AOL providing crappy internet service, the Commonwealth of Virginia could. Wouldn't that be an easier and quicker way to achieve your ultimate goal?

Just because corporations don't have Constitutional rights doesn't mean that it's appropriate to dictate who they can and cannot hire.

[Liberal Veteran]

12. When corporations become parasites.....

....instead of beneficial bacteria to our economy, then we the people have a right to remove that parasite from the body of our country.

In short, you don't get the benefits of being an American corporation if your corporation isn't going to be beneficial to the American people.

[wuushew]

14. That is the definition is socialism

And while socialism has definite appeals to me I am not blind to the useful traits of efficient corportations in the American economy. The problem is that the two biggest issues in America are employement and wealth inequity are directly related to corporate power. Corporations are not good at either of these issues by nature of their ability to concentrate wealth. The overall productivity of the country may go up through corporations but it is the inefficency of small business that gives people jobs and the fairness of governmental policy which minimizes wealth inequity. In my opinion we are truly moving toward an American serfdom state and I don't want to see that.

[Mairead]

54. "we are truly moving toward an American serfdom state"

Which is why Einstein came out strongly in favor of socialism.

What's quite funny is that socialism does not preclude corporations as a business form! All socialism precludes is concentrated private ownership of corporations. As long as the corporation's ownership is fully distributed, that's socialism!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. what exactly is my ultimate goal?

I don't think it would be a good idea for the state governments to run general business. I do think that corporations have to answer to the governments that create them.

"Just because corporations don't have Constitutional rights doesn't mean that it's appropriate to dictate who they can and cannot hire."

Who dictates who they can or cannot hire now? Management, right? I assume that's the way it will work in the future as well. Now, should we allow corporations to fire Americans and offshor jobs to totalitarian dictatorships like Communist China? No, I don't think so.

[Yavin4]

6. No Sir, You Are Wrong

The internet is far more than a simple subsidy. It's an implied contract between our government and the corporations that use it. Our government ALLOWED the private sector to have this information with the knowledge that it will benefit the public. The internet WAS NOT invented so that Bill Gates and Larry Ellison can increase their billions.

[TahitiNut]

4. I'd be in favor of a tax policy on corporations ...

... that only considered both revenues and expenses that were within the US. Thus, companies gathering revenues in the US and spending for labor and materials overseas could not offset those US revenues, for tax purposes, with those off-shore expenses. (Once upon a time, this was at least part of the thinking behind business taxation. It's too bad it's not anymore.)

[Brian Sweat]

7. Hell, til recently that is how I thought that corporate tax policy worked.

Silly me.

[JVS]

8. What is so special about IT jobs?

What about, Steelmaking, textile work, auto manufacturing. They are important too.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. I agree with you, but......

We lost that war a long time ago. Manufacturing in this country has been gutted and is nothing but a shell of it's former self.

And while we were fighting that battle, the pious economists and corporations all said "Oh, those dirty old manufacturing jobs will be replaced by high paying service jobs in the IT sector."

Don't misunderstand me. I fully support returning America to a production based economy but right now we are seeing a mass exodus in the IT field and it's where a lot of attention should be focused.

[JVS]

15. Agreement here

Fight where the battle is definitely! But in the long run don't forget the whole front.
:toast:

[Liberal Veteran]

20. I think I should have stated that better....

What I meant to say on the manufacturing end is that we lost that BATTLE a long time ago, but really the IT and manufacturing battles are just two fronts in the same WAR.

[JVS]

29. See 22, I agree with that post

There is still a good amount of manufacturing here. To write it off would be a mistake.

[Liberal Veteran]

40. I agree on that completely.....

To quote Star Trek: The line must be drawn here! This far, no farther!

And it seems oddly appropriate under the circumstances.

[NashVegas]

11. Touche

This is when that little thing called 'political compromise' comes in hand.

If threatened IT workers want help from the blue collar sector on this, they are going to need to do some reciprocating.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. agreed, solidarity between IT and industrial workers

I support rebuilding our manufacturing industry AND keeping our IT jobs. We need a coalition of blue collar and white collar here. Everyone's jobs and living standards are at stake.

[bpilgrim]

19. other than following the same pattern as other industries, NOTHING

and it's my industry now but i am reminded of that old wwI quote

"In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."

--The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German Confessing Church who spent seven years in a concentration camp.

peace

[NashVegas]

27. Thank You

I've been in radio for 19 years. There was no one to speak up for my industry in 1984, 1987, 1991, 1996. Although I'm doing everything I can to expose the issue of the newest proposals on the air now, it is with not without great bitterness.

[sangha]

13. Wrong

The taxpayers, who funded the development of the Internet, in their infinite wisdom, have decided to make the Internet publicly accessible without demanding that US companies only hire US citizens. Though you may feel that your retroactive demand is justified, there is nothing in either law or morality that requires a US corporation to hire only Americans.

The money we have invested in technology has been amply repaid by the benefits to society as a whole these technologies have brought about. Using your logic, people who benefit from a patent/copyright's protection, a protection developed and funded by the people through it's govt, have no right to the patented/copyrighted material they created.

And the money we have invested in people's education does not giver them the right to any job. It merely gives them an OPPORTUNITY to compete for the jobs that are out there.

[monkeyboy]

18. Problem is...

<<And the money we have invested in people's education does not giver them the right to any job. It merely gives them an OPPORTUNITY to compete for the jobs that are out there.>>

..."out there" is now India.

[sangha]

23. Breaking News

We have always been in competition with other nations.

[bpilgrim]

21. yeah... they have paid their debt to society!

and if they can make even more money abroad who are we to make a fuss.

just becuase they take our jobs or that many can no longer afforad to reap their wonderful benifits isn't their fault we don't make a 'life style' change!

i hear mickey deez is hiring :evilgrin:

peace

[sangha]

26. They're not "our" jobs

The problem here is the overwhelming sense of self-entitlement many Americans feel is their birthright.

[Mairead]

56. So long as our tax money is going to subsidise those corporations,

I think we have a perfect right to demand that the jobs stay here.

[sangha]

61. I disagree

We give money to all sorts of things, but it never confers "ownership". Furthermore, not all corporations are govt subsidized.

Our tax money also builds the highways, but that doesn't give the govt the right to tell you where to go (though it often seems that way)

[Mairead]

65. Bad analogy

We're talking about who they hire to build the highway...and there are (or were, at least) requirements that workers be (a) local and/or (b) paid to local standards ('local' being where the highway will be used)

[sangha]

71. Not a bad analogy

Programmers do more than "build" the Internet. Why should the job of writing a word-processing pgm be reserved for Americans when the govt hasn't subsidized that?

[Aaron]

66. Corporate personhood is a subsidy - arguably (n/t)

[sangha]

72. *Bingo*

That's the issue - what we get in return for granting corporate personhood, and the justifications for granting corps "limited liability". The jobs don't "belong" to Americans just because govt money was used to develop the Internet.

The issue is much bigger than that

[bpilgrim]

80. of course you do... though it doesn't make you RIGHT

and it is more than just SUBSIDIES we built and BLED to make this nation what it is.

of course it is LEGAL to go for the lowest bidder no matter where they may be and no matter how negiatively it impacts americans but thats what i like about LAW is that they CHANGE... all the time.

you are fighting a losing battle, for we are EVERYWHERE and our voices will be heard... one day.

see you on the other side ;-)

peace

[bpilgrim]

79. bullshit LABOR comes BEFORE everything else

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.

The problem here is the overwhelming sense of self-entitlement many Corporations feel is their 'birthright'

welcome to the plutacracy

peace

[Yavin4]

25. No, You're Wrong

The taxpayers, who funded the development of the Internet, in their infinite wisdom, have decided to make the Internet publicly accessible without demanding that US companies only hire US citizens.

When the Clinton/Gore regime started, Al Gore wanted the government to control the "Information Super Highway", as it was called back then. Gore envisioned another public works highway project, but he was shouted down by the powerful business IT interests who pledged that they were better suited for developing the internet. Additionally, IT companies successfully lobbied the government to relax labor laws which allowed foreign IT workers to work here, over training the domestic work force. Without this program, outsourcing would also not be possible. So again, our government which should protect the interest of the citizenry was sold a bill of goods by powerful corporate lobbyists.

Using your logic, people who benefit from a patent/copyright's protection, a protection developed and funded by the people through it's govt, have no right to the patented/copyrighted material they created.

You are granted a U.S. patent only when you can demonstrate the research that you used to arrive at your invention. These corporations DID NOT do the research that lead to the development of the internet. That research was done by people on the U.S. government payroll. Thus, the internet belongs to the U.S. tax payer.

[sangha]

31. Nope, I'm right

So again, our government which should protect the interest of the citizenry was sold a bill of goods by powerful corporate lobbyists.

It would be more accurate to say that "the people, who should pay attention to what the politicians and corporations are doing, fell asleep at the wheel"

You are granted a U.S. patent only when you can demonstrate the research that you used to arrive at your invention. These corporations DID NOT do the research that lead to the development of the internet. That research was done by people on the U.S. government payroll. Thus, the internet belongs to the U.S. tax payer.

No it doesn't. For one thing, the Internet "belongs" to non-tax-paying citizens as much as it does to the tax-paying ones. Secondly, "the Internet" is not a commodity like an "apple". "The Internet" is composed of a great many inventions, numerous devices, as well as numerous standards. Many of these were developed only because the people working on them knew that their inventions and improvements would gain them some profit for the simple reason that "The Internet "belongs" to no one"

If we were to take your beliefs to their extreme, then there would be no reason for a doctor to develop a new vaccine, because some of the info used "belongs" to US tax payers.

The reason why the govt funds "basic research" and then gives it out for free is to make the market work better. It serves the public interest. If there is anything wrong with how the Internet is used, or who corporations hire, it has nothing to do with who it "belongs" to. It has to do with a failure to have the decisions made on the basis of the public's INTEREST, not the public's OWNERSHIP (of public goods)

[JVS]

30. Your compassion

underwhelms me.

[sangha]

32. Compassion

does not justify racism or self-entitlement

[JVS]

33. It also doesn't justifly driving down wages for profit

[sangha]

35. Breaking news!!!

Corporations have no soul!!!

They have no compassion either.

[JVS]

39. Well then maybe we should nationalize the economy

[sangha]

46. Good luck....

.

[Yavin4]

36. May I Ask, What Do You Do For A Living?

How do you survive? Do you work? Or, do your parents pay your way?

[sangha]

41. I'm a computer programming

and I don't like the fact that jobs are being shipped overseas to fatten the wallets of the rich and powerful.

However, I don't let that fool me into thinking it's wrong because the jobs belong to people like me. They don't.

It's wrong because it's a perversion of the justification for a corporation's existence. You can't win the battle against corporate crime and abuse by mistating the reasons for being against them.

[Yavin4]

43. What Are You Going To Do When Your Job Disappears?

Not everyone has parents that will support them for the rest of their lives.

[sangha]

47. My parents are dead

but thanks for showing what an a****** you are

[Tigermoose]

50. Death is inevitable.

You have no right to feel sad for their departure, or to have fought to prolong their lives. Who are you? Some kind of racist?

(well...that is, according to Sangha's logic)

[Yavin4]

59. My parents are dead as well

and I don't have any family at all to take care of me if I can't find a job.

So, excuse me if I take economics a little more seriously than you do.

[sangha]

64. Excuse me?

I don't have anyone to take care of me either. I've been supporting myself for many years now, and I take economics just as seriously an anyone else, and I have to face the consequences of our economic policies, just as you do.

I just disagree with you. I don't believe that the jobs "belong" to Americans, and I don't expect corporations to act in the public interest just because you think they should. What I think, and expect, is that it's the GOVT'S job to make sure corps do that. That doesn't make me any better or worse than you. Just different.

[Nederland]

16. Why stop with just IT?

After all, since America tax money was used to discover penicillin, shouldn't we be the only ones allowed to have jobs making or distributing it? And what about automobiles? Sure other countries might have invented a thing or two used in automobiles, but for the most part the automobile is an American invention, so obviously we should be the only ones allowed to make them. Ditto for airplanes, no matter what those pesky New Zealander's say about flying before the Wright Brothers. Hell, you are absolutely correct, everything ever created by absolutely anyone should be the property of that person forever.

Good thing we don't know who created the wheel... </sarcasm>

[bpilgrim]

24. exactly! the people built and SACRIFICED a great deal in countless

industries, what are we to expect from such sacrifice and toil?

:hi:

peace

[Yavin4]

28. If U.S. Tax Payer Money Is Used For The Development

of a product, then damn right that product belongs to the U.S. tax payer. The invention of the automobile and the airplane were not U.S. tax payer funded projects. The internet was.

[Nederland]

34. Jingoistic

If U.S. Tax Payer Money Is Used For The Development of a product, then damn right that product belongs to the U.S. tax payer. The invention of the automobile and the airplane were not U.S. tax payer funded projects. The internet was.

So I assume from this that you are prepared to restrict the use of Polio vacinations to US citizens only? Sure let the brown people die, what's important is that we invented the stuff so only we should benefit from it. What a load of jingoistic crap. Are you planning on voting for Pat Buchannan too?

[Yavin4]

38. It's Not Jingoistic

Having the U.S. develop and CONTROL the polio vaccine, allowed us to indeed to help the rest of the world. Because we let private pharmaceutical companies develop AIDS treatment, that INHIBITS our ability to treat the rest of the world.

Do you think that letting private corporations use our publicly funded research is going to BENEFIT the world???

WHY DON'T YOU PRACTICE THINKING BEFORE RESORTING TO NAME-CALLING AND RACE-BAITING TO WIN YOUR AGRUMENT

[Nederland]

53. You are clueless

Having the U.S. develop and CONTROL the polio vaccine, allowed us to indeed to help the rest of the world.

What are you talking about? The US doesn't "CONTROL" anything with regard to polio vacinations. The US taxpayer paid for the development of the vaccine, and then the rest of the world was free to make use of it for its own populations. The reason we let the rest of the world use the vaccine even though we invented is because that was the right thing to do.

The same policy should apply to the internet. Simply because we invented it and paid for it is not a good reason to restrict profiting from it to US citizens. The internet is a tremendous tool for disseminating information and promoting freedom, and to think that only US citizens should be able to contribute to its further development is racist, jingoistic bullshit. Any person that is capable of performing the work should have the opportunity to do so. Simply put, the use and extension of the internet should be open to all people in the world, not restricted to only US citizens.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

44. you said that nederland, he didn't

Who suggested restricting polio vaccine to US citizens? You did, no one else.

[Nederland]

49. Yes he did

How else can you interpret this statement:

If U.S. Tax Payer Money Is Used For The Development of a product, then damn right that product belongs to the U.S. tax payer.

?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

51. how about a straightforward interpretation?

"If U.S. Tax Payer Money Is Used For The Development of a product, then damn right that product belongs to the U.S. tax payer."

In what language does "belong" mean "restricted to"? Not English.

He said that if the US pays for the development of a product, the product belongs to the US.

You started talking about restricting vaccines, and no one else.

[Nederland]

55. Ok

In what language does "belong" mean "restricted to"? Not English.

Let's apply your little word game to the subject at hand. I'm perfectly happy to say that the internet "belongs" to the US taxpayer, so long as by this you do not mean that its use should be "restricted to" US taxpayers. In other words, foreign programmers who want to make use of the internet to perform IT work for American companies are perfectly welcome to do so.

[Yavin4]

62. Hey Nederland

You're interpreting a racist slant to my post by interjectin flammatory language, which I did not use.

Because our government developed the polio vaccine and not some pharmaceutical corporation, WE, the people of the U.S., were able to distribute it worldwide.

Because AIDS treatment is largely being developed by private pharmaceutical companies, WE cannot distribute it to poor nations, rather these poor nations have to pay for it themselves.

[Nederland]

75. It is racist

You are just so wrapped up in your "America First" position that you fail to see it. Not surprising really, many Americans harbor subtle racist views without realizing it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. I don't want to play your word games

"I'm perfectly happy to say that the internet "belongs" to the US taxpayer, so long as by this you do not mean that its use should be "restricted to" US taxpayers."

I think that's exactly what he was saying. As for the rest of what you are posting, I think it's nonsense.

[Nederland]

74. Let's get this straight

You agree with this statement:

"I'm perfectly happy to say that the internet "belongs" to the US taxpayer, so long as by this you do not mean that its use should be "restricted to" US taxpayers."

But disagree with this statement:

"In other words, foreign programmers who want to make use of the internet to perform IT work for American companies are perfectly welcome to do so."


Now how exactly is that logically consistent?

[Abaques]

37. Its not that simple...

The majority of the people on the internet are not US citizens. Therefore claiming the internet for US taxpayers is rather irrelevant.

There are serious problems with IT jobs going overseas (mostly to India), but alot of that rests upon the complete lack of unionization of the people in IT. I am one of those people, and many of my colleagues simply do not want unions (there is a strong liberatarian dogma associated with alot of people in the IT sector). Back when the economy was golden, they weren't needed, but now that all the jobs are going away and people are being forced to work long hours without overtime (there are exemptions in the overtime laws for IT jobs) and benefits are being cut, people are complaining. But there hasn't been a real movement to unionize yet.

Of course its not that simple either. India actively markets itself to Dell and other companies trying to lure jobs there. Who can blame them?

All the IT jobs (most of which are service oriented) going overseas is simply a sympton of that which plagues most large US businesses: the desire for immediate financial gain. Everything is about what will raise the stock price and provide quick profit. How the big IT corps treat their customers has become secondary to profit.

Not really a shocker, is it? I'm just glad I decided to go back to school instead of working my tail off for some corporate machine.

[Yavin4]

42. May I Ask You Something

I'm just glad I decided to go back to school instead of working my tail off for some corporate machine.

What magical field of study that you're going for that will prepare you for a globalized work force? What about the millions of American workers who don't have parents that can afford to send them back to school for more training in something else that can be easily outsourced?

[Abaques]

45. Haha, computer science

Yeah, I'm just working on getting better at IT, but I enjoy it.


I agree that the system is screwed up, but there is no magical panecea that will stop globilization. The world economy has already been globalized. All we can do now is fight to make it fairer for everyone.

I think one thing that might help would be if we had stricter laws regarding the responsibility of corporations.

Oh, and all my schooling is being paid for by myself, in the form of loans from the government and banks. Loans I will have to repay back. I'm completely on your side about the unfairness of how hard it has become in going to school. My tuition will rise 15% each or the next two years and because of the repubs in control of my state government (Minnesota), I will now get no more grants and friends of mine have had their grant money cut by huge percentages.

Health care and education need to be guaranteed at a high level in this nation and we have more then enough capability to do so. Take care of that and mandate alot more corporate responsibility and then globalization doesn't hurt the US citizen as hard.

[Yavin4]

48. If You're Serious, then

You're a fool. By the time you finish, you will not be able to get work that will pay off your loans. There are literally thousands of ITers with skill levels, education, and experience much higher than yourself who cannot find any work.

Going back to school at this time is one huge mistake. Outsourcing will start branching out into other professions in the coming years.

[Abaques]

52. Thanks for making me feel better....

I am finishing my degree because:

1. I do not have a bachelor's degree yet and without that its tough to find any good job.

2. I really enjoy working with computers. I am a geek and damm proud, and I want to learn more.


And going back to school now to get my bachelors is smart because tuition is rising fast with no slowdown in sight. Better to take on smaller debt sooner and start paying it off quicker. Also, where the IT industry is in really bad shape is in California and New York. Mostly because thats where the majority of IT jobs were a few years ago during the boom. Its not quite as bleak as you are making it sound here in Minnesota, and once we get a Democrat in the White House in '04 the economy will improve (right before I get done).


All that being said, I am quite prepared to use my degree to get a job teaching or whatever if I need to.

I'm not exactly sure what policy change that I am advocating that you have not. I think we are both on the same page as far as distrusting and disliking big corporations. Is it just in our methods?

Lets think about the big picture, we need to facillitate change. Now lets come up with practical means of doing so.

[Riptide]

58. Good luck!

My husband has an undergrad in finance. He also has a master's in Computer Science (for which we are still paying off the loans). He is an experienced programmer, but he is very nervous about losing his job.

His company has begun outsourcing to India. He has many friends who have just as much experience/education as he does, and they have been out of work for a long time.

I honestly wish you the best of luck. But, it is pretty bleak out there.

[ArkDem]

57. If we did away with corporations all of our IT problems

would be solved.

[bpilgrim]

60. typical 'extremist' strawman thrown out by the right

i think folks just want regulation so profit isn't always but above people well that is how i see it anyways...

:hi:

peace

[rman]

67. US taxpayers pay only for the US part of the net

It started in the US, but back then it wasn't yet an Inter(national) Net(work) (it was just "darpa net").

Still one may wonder what's up with US GovCorps that they are exporting US employment.

When will Americans (and Europeans for that matter) start migrating to 2nd and 3rd world countries, in order to find a job?

[Tigermoose]

69. Or Inter(nal) Net(work)?

:)

Seriously though. It is an internet -- As opposed to IntraNet, which is a network confined to a local area network. An internet spans across multiple local area networks, so that's why its The Internet. I could be wrong, its happened once before ;P

Think of inter-state highway vs. an intrastate highway.

[rman]

81. look up the history of the internet

we don't have to make this stuff up.

[Yavin4]

73. Let Me Be Clear

When I say that we, the U.S. taxpayers, helped to developed the internet, I DO NOT mean that we shouldn't share the technology with private industry or the rest of the world. Many of you are making that leap in my argument. What I'm saying is that U.S. tech corporations do have a moral obligation to keep tech jobs within the U.S., given that it's been the U.S. taxpayer that's allowed them to develop a lot of technological innovations.

As an example, we the people own the broadcast airwaves. We license these airwaves to private corporations. In turn, we should demand that these media corporations serve the public's interest, at least in theory.

If we, the U.S. taxpayers, help to develop an innovation that could make private industries billions of dollars in profits, shouldn't we at least ask that these private industries give something back to the taxpayers?

[Nederland]

78. They do

shouldn't we at least ask that these private industries give something back to the taxpayers?

They do. Its called taxes.

[sweetheart]

68. "our" means all 6 billion people

British mathematicians first invented computers... do they have the right to call all subsequent inventions "our"? Nobody owns it anymore, although i agree the US taxpayer has paid in blood a huge subsidy to businesses that exploit it.... for a more narrow case of technology privatization for profit of cronys, look at Garmin, the GPS manufacturer... how about some GPS jobs for the public who fired up the satellites... kinda makes you wonder, eh... that the little hand held GPS you bought for 300 bucks does not function without billions in public subsidy... Do the people who don't use GPS, have the right to not pay for the subsidy? Arguably no, as global transport supply chains that supply everyone's life are using the GPS platform, as well as the defense that protects trade and markets also publically subsidized.

I have now 20 years in the software profession, as a developer, technical lead, project manager and company director. The "greed is good" argument for shipping jobs overseas don't fly... as the currency crossrates that make those overseas jobs cheaper are set by banks that are holding the majority shares in those companies... a sort of subsidy by the owners to squeeze more profits.... the whole situation stinks, and ameirca needs a finance regulator with TEETH to chomp in to this ugly conflict of interest.

[Nederland]

77. Agreed

The internet does not "belong" to US taxpayers.

It belongs to everyone.

[Sushi_lover]

70. many issues here: corporations, nationalism, capitalism

Many different issues here.

Corporations: good or evil?
I agree with those who say corporations have too many protections and not enough responsibility.

Capitalism: good or evil?
I feel the religion of capitalism is a religion of denial. True, free markets create efficiencies. But capitalism cannot stand on its own as a panacea of world problems. Free markets don’t keep the air and water clean. Free markets don’t stop Nike from hiring 11 yr olds to make tennis shoes. Free markets don’t prevent Kuwaitis from holding teen-aged Phillipino maids as sex slaves.

Nationalism: good or evil?
Nationalism is a religion of denial. It’s associating yourself with the uniform of your team, but often not taking responsibility for your team’s atrocities. We are in the brotherhood of man, the sisterhood of woman. What right do I have to the spoils of my nation’s imperialism as opposed to an IT worker in India? I don’t know. This is very confusing. I do know nationalism prevents the U.S. from acknowledging that world problems are also U.S. problems.

[Woodstock]

76. Outsourcing of state and local government jobs are next

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/outsourcing_america.htm

So gee, what's left for us? As the Microsoft guy says, they can always get them cheaper than us. So what will be left for Americans? Burger flipper and sex worker? We will have 1% of the US living in obscene luxury, and the rest of us living in shacks. And this is good for the rest of the world? Losing American democracy (even such as it is) would be devastating to the world.